Cave Feedback

[annageckos]

While I liked the old action page better I don't really have a problem with the two columns. Now that it works right anyway. Maybe it was changed for a reason, maybe there are more updates to come. I don't know, just wait and see I guess.

[LumosSeeker148]

Don't know if the other issues have been fixed-- my actions were never affected ) except briefly 'Rename")

but thank -you for moving kill out of first place!!! the other spots will become automatic as I get used to where they are, but "kill" at the top was just wrong!

I definitely agree with this! Thank you, TJ, for moving "Kill" from first place on the actions page! It's much better now, and I can get used to where the other actions are soon… haha

[natli]

I like the new division - two colums, lots of space between the actions, and the two negative ones are at the bottom. Breed is the first on the left, which is also a plus for me.

[Melisande]

Perhaps TJ would like his site to evolve.  Try to state plainly what the difficulties are, so he can fix the problems.

(News section TJ informed members changes were coming. )

Yes he said changes were coming, but that does not mean that we, the members have to like the changes and we can ask and beg him to please revert things to how they were before.

 

Members of the site have not always liked the changes he made, like the linage view change and that was eventually returned to the original style.

 

 

A few pages back I have a list, detailed with reasons why I do not like this change and it should be reverted. My list still stands especially where a lot of users still are having trouble finding commands.

 

A list is a lot more efficient for a small amount of links. There was no reason for the two columns it makes it messy and less convenient for members.

 

 

So I am still asking, and begging TJ to revert it back to normal or make an option under the account page where we can choose what style we want our action page to look like.

 

 

It didn't seem wildly unpopular to me.

um... I don't know where you have been but I've seen like 5 people who said they liked it and at least fifty if not more people saying the hate the change and to put it back to normal please. All the users on the off site forum I use to post my eggs on are all complaining abut it as well, but they do not use the forums here for the most part.

Edited September 29, 2014 by Melisande

[Ha-Ki]

I didn't think much about the order of the actions before, but now that I have I would actually prefer to have all the "good" and "neutral" ones on the left and the "bad" ones on the right, because that's the order in which we read - top to bottom, and then the second column, like in newspapers.

 

So for hatchies my favorite order would be: Hide - Name/Rename - Describe (greyed out) on the left, and Freeze - Abandon - Kill on the right.

 

For adults I'd like to see: Breed - Describe - Name/Rename (left) and Release - Kill (right)

 

Also, the layout for adults looks a bit strange for me right now, because the spaces between the actions are not equal. I see that this makes sure that the action names in both columns appear at the same height, but it still looks strange to me. With a two-column-layout, I somehow expect to see newspaper-style layout, but in fact it's a table with invisible cell borders. I guess expecting newspaper-style but having different spaces is what is bothering me. Personally, I'd prefer to have equal spaces like the one between "Breed" and "Describe" on this screenshot.

 

 

ETA: I just checked the account settings page and realized it's exactly the same layout there, but there all the entries consist of caption + 2 lines (except for the last one), which makes that page look much better in my opinion. I never realized the layout was actually a table on the account settings page because the spaces are equal and it looks just natural there. With the different lengths of entries on the actions page of adults it looks a bit weird to my eyes. The hatchie action page looks less disturbed, because there all the entries in one column have the same space and only the spacing between columns varies. (Hope it's understandable what I mean - not a native speaker)

Edited September 29, 2014 by Ha-Ki

[Fuzzbucket]

It didn't seem wildly unpopular to me. People were surprised by it, and a little dismayed when it didn't work right out of the box, but there weren't that many that said they hated it. And how is TJ supposed to know if he fixed it if he reverts back to the old way while he's working on the fixes? Mostly the people I saw posting that they hated it were people who don't like it when anything changes. (we love ya, Fuzz, but you know that's true about you. )

To be fair to MOI, I don't resist ALL changes, I REALLY don't, I LOVED the biomes when they showed up, and I LOVE the new big words on them. I DON'T want more of them, but I have said my piece on what I would like to see if they happen, yes. I have even SUGGESTED changing the actions pages to have big words too, for people who made a mistake - and I have also SUGGESTED changes (mass fogging; accepting aid on the first page, among others !)

 

I hated the idea of "updating" the silvers; I have no doubt there are other things I've hated - but NOT all, absolutely not.

 

I REALLY can't see the POINT of this one. It is JUST a matter of appearance, and changed nothing in terms of game play - except making it that bit harder to see the actions, in a way and even though it works for me now, I am told it still doesn't for mobile users - I've no idea as I'm not one ! And there were a LOT of posts yesterday who just hated the appearance of it - and who have stopped posting now that it does seem to work properly. But it is quicker to glance down a page than across and back.

 

I have adblock working again now, and that was a HUGE issue - not least for that person yesterday who isn't allowed by his father to turn it off or change its settings, so he was royally screwed.

 

 

Edited October 4, 2014 by fuzzbucket

[Nerei]

Wait, when did the action page get updated? O.o

[cyradis4]

The new layout is bothering me a bit, but that's because things like "abandon" keep changing sides.

 

I wish TJ would set it up so:

Hide

Breed

Name

Describe

 

were on one side for all dragons, and

Abandon / Release

Freeze

Kill

 

were on the other side.

 

So for eggs, you'd have (paranthesis greyed out / not showing if after /):

Hide / (breed) <> Abandon / (release)

(name) <> (freeze)

(describe) <> Kill

 

For hatchies, you'd have (paranthesis greyed out / not showing if after /):

Hide (breed) <> Abandon / (release)

Name <> Kill

(describe) <> (freeze)

 

For adults, you'd have

Breed (hide) <> Release / (abandon)

Name <> Kill

Describe <> (freeze)

 

So, the menus would stay more or less the same throughout the growing period, and you wouldn't have actions that appear on each of the stages (like Kill) moving around on you.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[Jazeki]

And also in my opinion "It wasn't broke before" is a poor reason for not trying new things.

I don't mind trying new things. I don't mind changes. But, I prefer changes that are for more than purely aesthetic reasons. This is an aesthetic change that seems unnecessary. But, I'll live.

 

Again, I think it would have gone over better if TJ had enumerated some of the changes he was making or planning on making (including minor style changes to the page layouts) and perhaps allowed feedback concerning the use of columns--like he had done for the new login/front page. This way, he could have taken players' concerns (or lack of concerns) into account and they would have least been prepared for it. I don't like some parts of the login/front page, but I know it's coming. This is not completely the case with the actions pages for the dragons. Users know changes are coming, but they did not know this one was one of them.

 

As for reverting back to the old layout and testing issues, I think that TJ would probably have the capability to return the layout to what it was on the site and test the new layout somewhere else in the meantime. I recall there being a "second cave" at one time that was used for testing.

Edited September 29, 2014 by Jazeki

[Melisande]

TJ does do beta testing but sometimes issues do not crop up or are not realized until it is released large scale.

 

I am seeing lots of people say "don't fix if it's not broke" but:

1) Just because something isn't broke doesn't mean it can't be improved

But it's not an improvement! Not even talking about things breaking the two columns do not look as nice as the list did and they made it harder for us to find our actions. There does not seem to be any improvement in this change... it was just changed because why not?

 

I am ok with changes if they add something to the game. Make the site run better. Give us something positive to our game play. If it makes the site look nicer. If things are streamlined and easier to use.

 

 

All this change has added has been negative things.

- It does not make the site better in any way. It does not add anything to game play at all in a positive way where as there are negative changes because of it.

- It detracts from the visual appeal of the site and makes the page look messy. It's all clustered up instead of a neat, linear list.

- For users who have been here for years it makes it harder to find the action they want.

 

 

I have a longer, detailed list a few pages back. This is just the points in relation to this... not counting all the glitches and broken things.

 

These are reasons I am begging TJ to put it back to normal or give us an opt out to go back to the normal page instead of the new one.

 

And there were a LOT of posts yesterday who just hated the appearance of it - and who have stopped posting now that it does seem to work properly

You have to remember that yesterday was a Sunday, so at least in the US more users had the day off so could spend time in the forums to post about issues they did not like. Being the middle of the afternoon on a Monday in the states a lot of those same users are probably at work or school so unable to access the DC forums to continue posting their displeasure with this unnecessary change.

Edited September 29, 2014 by Melisande

[Guillotine]

It may be working now, but that doesn't make it an improvement. It's ugly and was pushed out for no reason besides aesthetics, despite the fact that the actions page was perfectly functional and aesthetically pleasing beforehand.

 

It doesn't help that the action descriptions smash into each other, at least on my end. Seriously, there was no good reason for this and I want an explanation.

[Flaviel]

Just taking a few seconds here to say that now that everything just works fine I don't mind the changes and that I'll also get used to the two columns on the action page. So I am alright with the change one way or another .

[Cinnamin Draconna]

1. Consistency is not necessarily a good thing. It depends on the context and purpose. Dividing an already short page into columns is totally unneeded and unwanted. You didn't have to scroll down to find anything, and until paging down is actually needed there's no reason to change it. Dividing the Account page was needed because you did need to scroll down to find things; but the Action page is NOT at that point yet.

 

2. I do appreciate that 'Kill' was moved from the top of the list. That has ALWAYS bugged me even if I never said anything. Truthfully tho, I still have a problem with what is listed. Why do actions that do not and can not be used for certain stages even need to be listed in the first place? You can't name an egg, so why is name even listed? Ditto on Describe.. and with only 3 actions available, why use columns? Plus, why does Describe show up on an unfrozen hatchling action page when you can NEVER use the action. It shouldn't show up until a hatchling is actually frozen. Then there is the totally redundant grayed out Abandon on a frozen hatchling action page right along with Release. Kinda stupid having both don't you think, even if one of them is grayed out? Even the adult Action pages are not listed in a logical manner. They should be in this order: Breed, Rename, BSA (when applicable), Describe, Release and Kill last. Which would put Describe at either the bottom of the first column or the top of the second column, if you have to have the columns.

 

3. Consistency should not have priority over efficiency. You don't need two columns when a short list works just as well. As long as a short list is in logical order and has proper spacing, there's no need to split it into two columns just because a list on another type of page got too long to look good. Having two layouts is NOT inconsistent as long as the styles are similar. By using the same colors, the same font and the same spacing, you have consistency AND efficiency.

 

All that said, I am NOT resistant to change, I'm resistant to UNNEEDED change. Change for the better is good. Change for the sake of change is not always a good thing. Sometimes it's the worst possible reason.

 

In this case, I just think it's totally unneeded. There was nothing wrong with the action page (except the order of the actions), and changing to columns did nothing to impove the page or the game.

[Thuban]

I like the new action page layout, I agree with the others that "bad" actions should be on the right side. I havent been dealing with the action page enough to really know how much I like it or not (since im not naming, or doing much breeding) I understand why people got upset about the sudden change. I didnt like it much either at first, but I assumed that the change was part of the "future updates" that had been mentioned in the new section, and that it might be a day or two before the final idea was ready to go.

 

It ALWAYS takes a little while for new things to be fully good to go, even with people beta testing. Even holiday events have issues during the first few hours.. there is always chaos and panic every time a change is made or a burp in how things work happens, and every time, TJ has made a point to go through the messages, see what the reactions were, what problems are reported and decide how to fix them. Its a lot easier to narrow those issues down when you dont have to wade through a sea of "change it back or im gonna quit playing" and people saying how much they hate it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Melisande]

In this case, I just think it's totally unneeded. There was nothing wrong with the action page (except the order of the actions), and changing to columns did nothing to impove the page or the game.

Agreed, that's what I've felt this whole time. This change added nothing positive to the game, and really was not needed.

[Fuzzbucket]

But still - why ? It doesn't add anything and there are so many things we could USE that are kind of waiting...! We just got multiple sorting - YAY - Fi please note the YAY !!! - now can we have multiple FOGGING, for instance

 

I also agree with Cinn about actions you can't use being up there anyway. Even greyed out. I don't CARE about that one. Fi, - but it does seem pointless. To be honest I can't remember of they were there before, but either way - unless it's one you can't use NOW - as in "you cannot incubate again for 13 days" - they should be left out.

 

Name

You cannot name your egg because only hatchlings and adults can be named.

Describe

You cannot give your egg a description because only adults and frozen hatchlings can be described.

 

Why have them up there then ?

Edited September 29, 2014 by fuzzbucket

[edwardelricfreak]

I like the new action page layout, I agree with the others that "bad" actions should be on the right side.

Oh yes I agree with this ^^^

 

I thought that it would be okay with the actions as they are, and I'm personally fine if they stay this way, but I think maybe the negative ones on the right would be better. o3o Possibly.

[Rally Vincent]

I did find the old action page layout more functional, as looking for the correct action only required to go from top to bottom. Now you have to search sideways as well, especially for the abandon link which is on the left for eggs and on the right for hatchlings.

 

I also find it harder to distinguish the action link from the description text. It just takes more time than before to choose the correct action. It isn't game breaking, but less comfortable than before.

 

0.02/me

[Thuban]

Perhaps these changes have to do with the future layout changes in general. I recall there being a thread somewhere asking about our preferred skins, and mentioning the possibility of cutting the variety down some... ah here it is:

http://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showtopic=163318

 

 

As we saw with this change, the different skins react differently to the changes hes making, which I think solidifies the need to narrow down the layouts to only a couple (as in 2-3) skins at most. With the different layout shown in the preview thread over in the news section, it looks like theres possibility of more things being very different once that new skin hits. If he is indeed going to be narrowing the skin count down, and is redoing the (old) layout to work better with the new one, when it comes, then maybe, these changes will make more sense later?

 

As for the "un-needed" actions showing up: As of yesterday, I felt it was completely silly to have greyed out actions that arent possible to use for each stage. Now that im looking a bit closer at things though, I think I would far rather have all the actions show up on every page so that every action page looks the same, and buttons arent jumping around. That way, the users who are prone to muscle memory clicking, arent having to readjust for each page. I usually prefer to have pages be as clean as possible, with no unnecessary things showing up, but seeing the complaints of the abandon link jumping around...I think I would far rather see the unneeded links, than have to re-adjust every stage.

[Fuzzbucket]

As for the "un-needed" actions showing up: As of yesterday, I felt it was completely silly to have greyed out actions that arent possible to use for each stage. Now that im looking a bit closer at things though, I think I would far rather have all the actions show up on every page so that every action page looks the same, and buttons arent jumping around. That way, the users who are prone to muscle memory clicking, arent having to readjust for each page. I usually prefer to have pages be as clean as possible, with no unnecessary things showing up, but seeing the complaints of the abandon link jumping around...I think I would far rather see the unneeded links, than have to re-adjust every stage.

What about BSAs then ????

[Ha-Ki]

As for the "un-needed" actions showing up: As of yesterday, I felt it was completely silly to have greyed out actions that arent possible to use for each stage. Now that im looking a bit closer at things though, I think I would far rather have all the actions show up on every page so that every action page looks the same, and buttons arent jumping around. That way, the users who are prone to muscle memory clicking, arent having to readjust for each page. I usually prefer to have pages be as clean as possible, with no unnecessary things showing up, but seeing the complaints of the abandon link jumping around...I think I would far rather see the unneeded links, than have to re-adjust every stage.

I agree with this. Besides, it maybe helps new players to see what actions will be available once the egg has hatched or the hatchie has grown up?

 

ETA: 'd by fuzz - good point! I agree with Thuban's suggestion below, she quicker came up with one than me It has often bothered me to accidentally click the BSA when I wanted to breed a BSA Dragon

Edited September 29, 2014 by Ha-Ki

[Thuban]

What about BSAs then ????

Oh suuure, pick on the one teeny tiny thing I hadn't thought about...

 

 

A quick flip through the different adults.. it bugs me that the pages look different between dragons that have BSA and those that dont...

 

Not sure how I would change that, but now that im seeing that, its gonna drive me nuts.

 

Still.. I like the layout, even if the order of actions (and unevenness between the adult action pages) isnt an order that I would prefer to see.

Adult page

Breed- Kill

Name - Release

Describe - BSA

 

At least that way, if there isnt a BSA option, it wont mess up the formatting for the other 5 options. The action missing from the bottom right rather than top right would be far less noticable a change between adult action pages.

 

Edit: probably should have finished the thought before posting...

Hatchy Page-unfrozen/frozen.. seems like it would also work fine for eggs.

Hide - Kill

Name- Abandon/release

Describe -freeze

 

 

At least this way.. most of the similar actions are still in the same place, between stages.

Edited September 29, 2014 by Thuban

[edwardelricfreak]

I really wouldn't want the BSA AFTER Kill or Release, though. :\

[Thuban]

I really wouldn't want the BSA AFTER Kill or Release, though. :\

Check my edit above yours.. maybe then it will make more sense? The idea was to do it in a way that the actions that are ALWAYS available, stay in the same spots, where the optional ones that do change, stay on the bottom right so that if they dont exist, they wont mess up formatting, or change the order.

[pinkgothic]

Check my edit above yours.. maybe then it will make more sense? The idea was to do it in a way that the actions that are ALWAYS available, stay in the same spots, where the optional ones that do change, stay on the bottom right so that if they dont exist, they wont mess up formatting, or change the order.

 

Or one could introduce a greyed out 'Breed-specific action/This breed of dragon does not have a breed-specific action' (maybe with a link to the help page on BSAs) for the dragons that don't have one.

 

(I bet that'd annoy some people. But I just had to suggest it. It's not even just meant as a joke - though that being said, I have no investment in this.)

Edited September 29, 2014 by pinkgothic