2015-09-27 - Encyclopedia Update (and more)

[Wahya]

Change is a part of life.

This site always changes.

This was bound to happen at some point, especially since the spriter wanted them redone.

This protest is probably not changing TJs mind.

The spriters probably predicted this, knowing the userbase, and they know better. They'll probably do it best to their abilities, and get the sprite as close as they can.

 

It's interesting to see that the Horses and Nillas get little attention compared to the uproar about Silvers. I even think the protest against the Holly tweaks has died down some. Seriously. Change was bound to happen. The most we can do is sit down and enjoy the sprites made for us

Protesting may not change anything, but if one doesn't try, then you have no hope at all (I also feel this discussion is more productive than your average protest, since most people are staying fairly respectful, and explaining their stances intelligently). This is pretty much the last stand for any of us who aren't thrilled about the idea of sprite updates.

[Tawanda001]

 

And hate to break it to you, but the number of people that are mentioning this so-called 'nostalgia' are not the majority.

 

That could quite possibly be because a lot of the opposing post have a condescending and snarky tone. Many people won't voice an unpopular opinion if they feel they will have to deal with being made fun of for that opinion, and there is Plenty of that going on in this thread.

[purplehaze]

That could quite possibly be because a lot of the opposing post have a condescending and snarky tone. Many people won't voice an unpopular opinion if they feel they will have to deal with being made fun of for that opinion, and there is Plenty of that going on in this thread.

Agreed. I have been very disappointed in some of the people who have displayed snarky arrogance here. Disparaging another person's feelings, whether you agree or not, is uncalled for. A few people with attitudes like that can really destroy the tone of the whole thread.

[Dragon_Arbock]

I guess I'll just say, I think the only sprite update I've been disappointed in was the Val 09- I feel like that actually lost detail, and the personality they exhibited in their old sprite.

I mean yes, that older sprite could have used a bit of tweaking with the legs, but I just preferred the older look.

 

Provided the Silvers keep the heart of their design, I'll be happy.

[The_Bucket]

*sighs at all the sprite arguments and decides to refrain from saying anything more*

 

Moving on, there's a bunch of typos in the Encyclopedia still. I got these from the Falconiforms alone:

 

 

 

 

Aren't there any proofreaders out there? I'm almost tempted to volunteer, but I know my typically Leet English Skillz are still lacking in some areas.

There are not proofreaders to my knowledge. There is, somewhere, a grammar thread where people can report spelling/grammatical mistakes. I've got to go in less than a minute otherwise I'd find and link it.

[AGYK]

There are not proofreaders to my knowledge. There is, somewhere, a grammar thread where people can report spelling/grammatical mistakes. I've got to go in less than a minute otherwise I'd find and link it.

No worries, I've got it. Here's the Grammar Patrol thread.

[olympe]

Regarding a silver sprite update, I'll reserve judgement until I see the new sprites. Seriously. Back in the silver sprite update thread, there were shown lots of gorgeous sprites, most of which stayed close to the pose while adressing the issues of the silver sprites. Most even stayed close to the original coloring while merely adding some shine. If we get one of those, I don't see any reason to complain. And, since TJ sure read our opinions on that matter and tends to take player opinions into account, I'm sure that he won't do anything drastic like with the gold update.

[DragonNighthowler]

I'm very excited about the updates, specially the silver and horse updates. Can't wait to see the new dragons.

 

As for the encyclopedia, it will be fun to lurk for so many new dragons to complete it again. Thanks a lot.

[stardust13]

Fair enough. Though your "less painful" alternative is my excruciatingly painful. When I caught my Silvers they were rare. I did not catch them solely because they were rare, but they still represent hours of hunting I put into the cave. Logging in to discover that the dragon I put a lot of time and effort into getting is now common/uncommon would be horrifying. It means that the time I spent was wasted. I shouldn't have bothered trying so hard to get my Silvers; I could have devoted my time into other activities and picked them up later with ease. Not only that, but now I have to hunt the new Silvers down all over again, competing with every single user for who knows how long to reach my quota again.

 

I know that you are attached to the sprites and don't want to see them be lost, but your proposed option would represent a loss of my time and the time others spent catching these hard to acquire dragons. That time is gone. I don't get to take screenshots of it to look at later. I can't look fondly back on those memories. I can't even really appreciate those old sprites that you want to be saved because they now represent a poor choice that wasted hours of my life. How can that be the nicer solution?

Blusangs were once as rare as silver. So were Caveborn Blacks. So were Spessartine Pyralspites. So still are Almandine Pyralspites. We've all wasted time and trading on rare dragons that become more common later. So would go the old Silver based on Syphoneira's suggestion.

 

As many of you keep saying, Change Happens, so if the old Silvers were to become more common while new Silvers become the new rare, that works for all the Change Happens people, right?

 

Give the old Silvers a new description, up their drop rate and new Silvers can have the "beautiful glow" description and rare drop rate. I like this idea if the new Silvers are wildly different from the old ones.

 

I'm one of those people who base my lineage breeding on shape and color of the dragons, so a change in pose and color of any dragon can mess with my lines. Silvers happen to be one of the oldest dragons receiving an update, thus the change affects more breeders and lineages.

 

Personally, I suspect the Silver update won't be too drastic, but if it is, introducing the new Silvers as a new breed would be a good compromise.

Edited September 30, 2015 by stardust13

[Thuban]

There are not proofreaders to my knowledge. There is, somewhere, a grammar thread where people can report spelling/grammatical mistakes. I've got to go in less than a minute otherwise I'd find and link it.

There are proofreaders, but not all of the entries were shared though to be looked over, before being added. The entry i wrote for example, was poked and proof-read, and edited a few times. The artists tend to rely on each other to look things over, if they are sharing the information to be looked over first.

 

 

*casually leaves herself a note to finish entries she never finished...

 

 

As for the topic itself: Im hesitant on updating sprites, but understand that some sprites really, really need them. If i dont like the new ones, I'll simply not collect them. There are only a couple sprites that would really, really bother me if they were to update into something i dont like, but I've dropped big lineage projects I had going due to changes in the past (one of which had been on year three) and am still here. Every change opens the door for new things for me to latch onto, and work with.

 

 

I keep seeing mentions of "if I dont like a sprite, I dont collect it" and "there are certain breeds I dont collect because they arent my taste". That is exactly how my balloon hoard started. I felt bad for them, because people really didnt like them much and started doing interesting lineages with them, to help people see them differently. Im honestly hoping to see breeds I dont like, getting updated into something I'll gladly collect, rather than pick up purely because they are low time, or blocking the cave.

[pederino]

That could quite possibly be because a lot of the opposing post have a condescending and snarky tone. Many people won't voice an unpopular opinion if they feel they will have to deal with being made fun of for that opinion, and there is Plenty of that going on in this thread.

@Tawanda001 @purplehaze

Like what you have done here in your comment? I mean, you are saying that the ones that want or are in pro of the updates are arrogant and snarky, would not that count as being snarky? Also arrogance, why would you think you are in the position to call another person or group of persons arrogant?

 

Lets say the truth, both sides are quite snarky and arrogant, when we discuss about something personal, is very difficult not to come to that edge. The difference is when you are respectfully snarky, and unrespectfully snarky. ATM, most of the comments, of both parties and the ones that doesnt care at all about the silvers update, have been very respectful (also snarky and arrogant ), so I think that is not a reason why people would stop commenting, because if it was, this thread would not have commenters at all.

 

Anyway, I have gotten way out of topic, and sorry for that...

[TehUltimateMage]

I'm imagining the Silver update like the GoN update quite a while ago. Better shading, anatomy tweaks, improved (but not necessarily new) dragon.

 

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[Tawanda001]

Like what you have done here in your comment? I mean, you are saying that the ones that want or are in pro of the updates are arrogant and snarky, would not that count as being snarky?

No, I did not say that people who are for the updates are snarky. What I said is that many of the posts are snarky, and they are, simple statement of fact. That fact can discourage others from stating their opinions if they feel like they will be seen as whiners, unable to cope with change, or being called negative for simply having a difference of opinion.

[Wahya]

I'm imagining the Silver update like the GoN update quite a while ago. Better shading, anatomy tweaks, improved (but not necessarily new) dragon.

 

--> 

Although updates like that are certainly less invasive than full sprite redos, they still bug me for some breeds personally, the GoN being one of them. I loved the old wings - they had a depth and mystery to them that really completed the look. The new ones just don't do anything for me. I actually don't like them as much because of it, and for me (again, personally) having mine doesn't mean as much to me now.

 

Someone brought up before that the old Pokemon sprites aren't as good as the new ones, but they are still the same Pokemon. For me, I actually considered getting the original Horsea sprite from Red/Blue tattooed on me, because I fell in love with that quirky little piece of art as a child. The new Horsea sprites are shinier, more detailed, and good in their own way, but I will ALWAYS see them as the old ones in my mind, and would choose to get that old style permanently put on my skin. I would never take the new sprites away from people, because I know they are loved and appreciated too, but I want the choice to see what I want to see. Me getting the old Horsea tattooed allows me to see what I want without taking it from others (I haven't actually gotten the tat yet - it's just an idea I've been throwing around for a while), and vice versa. So for me, it's kind of like that. It's the meaning as well as the art. New and improved isn't always better, and tried and true isn't always either; but when it comes to art, it's all in the eyes of the beholder.

Edited September 30, 2015 by Wahya

[Fiona]

My opinion on this is this: TJ has announced that all silver sprites will be getting an update. As in, the decision is made. Maybe both sides of the "should he/shouldn't he" debate should take a step back from the computer, do whatever you do to calm down and settle your blood pressure, then come back and wait and see what the new sprites will look like before you get your knickers in a twist.

 

Sure, it's ok to say you love the silvers as they are and don't want them changed. It's ok to say that you are looking forward to the change. Both sides are entitled to their opinions on this, and to state what those opinions are. But let's clear out away from the battlefield. Have enough respect for others feelings to accept that they don't have to see it your way, just as you don't have to see it theirs.

 

But also, have enough respect for TJ to trust that he will do what he feels is best for the game overall, even though he knows some of you will be upset by it. He wouldn't take this step on a whim. And based on the length of time this has been coming, you can deduce he's given it a lot of careful thought.

[Hellen]

Don't even get me started - I'm a professional copy-editor and some of the encyclopedia entries are painful for me to read. I can usually ignore typos and grammar in forum posts because 1) not everyone's a native English speaker and 2) people may have other problems, like dyslexia. But on "official" copy it really makes me wince. I've half a mind to volunteer myself. :/

LOL, yes!

 

Non-native English speaker here, but I would volunteer to proofread, too.

Yikes, some of those entries are really... ehm... lets just leave it at "Omg, who wrote that, and were they awake when they did it?"

[dragongrrl]

My opinion on this is this: TJ has announced that all silver sprites will be getting an update. As in, the decision is made. Maybe both sides of the "should he/shouldn't he" debate should take a step back from the computer, do whatever you do to calm down and settle your blood pressure, then come back and wait and see what the new sprites will look like before you get your knickers in a twist.

 

Sure, it's ok to say you love the silvers as they are and don't want them changed. It's ok to say that you are looking forward to the change. Both sides are entitled to their opinions on this, and to state what those opinions are. But let's clear out away from the battlefield. Have enough respect for others feelings to accept that they don't have to see it your way, just as you don't have to see it theirs.

 

But also, have enough respect for TJ to trust that he will do what he feels is best for the game overall, even though he knows some of you will be upset by it. He wouldn't take this step on a whim. And based on the length of time this has been coming, you can deduce he's given it a lot of careful thought.

Thank you, Fiona! <3

 

And thank you again to TJ, and all who have provided the Encyclopedia and sprite updates. This is a labor of love. We get this site for the love of it - TJ's project, all the artists and writers and the mods - they all do this for the love of these dragons, so thank you! Thank you, all!

[HeatherMarie]

There's nothing we can do about the updates. I know that, I think everyone knows that. Expressing our dislike isn't going to change anything. That doesn't mean that we should just stay quiet, though. If nothing else, we are showing how much we like this game, by having such strong opinions about it.

 

Me, I'm concerned about this "update" trend in general. Golds were completely changed. Now silvers. What about all the other older breeds? Blacks, reds, whites, splits.... Those are all dragons I personally consider as looking "older". Are they eventually going to get replaced too? I don't like that feeling. I don't like feeling like the history of DragonCave is slowly being erased.

[Fiona]

Saying you don't like the updates is one thing. Arguing with the people who do is another.

 

And really Marie, I think Reds are in desperate need of having all four feet planted on the ground. Wouldn't you think they'd be tired by now of standing on an invisible hill?

[Finduilas]

Well, I've just finally got it together to read through the thread so far.

 

Something very noticeable, regarding the sprite changes to Silvers ...

I understand the point you are making, and thank you for writing it out so fluently. Older players will inevitably be attached to the sprites as they are, and that is understandable.

 

However, the website not only depends on old players to continue operation (I've been here since '09, I think I count), but also on new players coming in and growing as attached to the game as we are. Many of the website's tweaks over the years have been to improve the new player experience, including an expanded Help section, the encyclopedia, the tutorial - yes, a new player encounters a kind of pseudo-tutorial now. One of the things that will snare new players is not only these ease-of-use changes, but the dragons themselves. Their variety, their rarity levels, and possibly most importantly, their appearance. Older players might not care so much about the looks of individuals, but new players do.

 

How then can we expect a new player to look at the current silver model and think "Wow, that's something I really need to have!" When I first started, it was one of my favorites, but as time has gone on, the quality of the sprite has clearly been surpassed by other, more common dragons. It can be argued that a majority of dragon sprites in the game are technically better than that of the silver. Again, to old players this might not matter, and I will miss the old sprite, but it's simply not very colorful or shiny. It's not something most newer players would want. That's where the problem lies - in the clear difference in quality between the silver sprites (and some of the other older sprites as well) and sprites from the last few years.

 

It's a rare dragon, it's supposed to be desirable, it should have one of the best sprites. It needs to look cool. That's the bottom line.

 

As long as the new sprites aren't in a drastically different direction from the originals, I think we'll all be fine with them.

[NotBambi]

assuming technically possible to choose an option to see the old sprites but not the new ones (maybe with a different library of images) and that TJ would agree, would that be acceptable? Obviously would be all or nothing: old Whiptail, old Silver etc.

I'm aware that TJ made a decision, and I'm glad he did. At the same time, I sympathize with the feelings of the people that would want to keep the old sprites. Usually I do not quote myself but I would appreciate if one of them answered my question.

 

Edit: I was reading Marie's post and I was wondering... will there be a "Museum" area with all the old sprites, obviously post-copyright-issues? I do not mean on the Wikia, I mean as part of the Encyclopedia. Or something like the Wilderness or the Graveyard but showing the old images.

Edited September 30, 2015 by NotBambi

[JavaTigress]

I find it weird that she's actually putting forth the idea of making the new Silvers some sort of separate rare breed after talking so much about how all the prettiest and desirable sprites end up being unavailable for the majority of the userbase. Pretty sure she'd be complaining if it actually went down like that. I know I would be.

This exactly.

That is precisely WHY it cannot happen that way.

 

The NEW pretties would simply befome unobtainable to most and go for insane trades.

 

I suspect that TJ and all wanted to avoid the sort of drama that would cause. Hence the way of handling it that was chosen. Don't get me wrong, i DO sort of feel for those that really LOVE the old silver sprites.THAT being said, we don't even know for sure what the new ones will look like. Why not save the panic til we no for sure how drastically they have been changed... and mind, change might be for the good. I saw Lady Lyzar's updated silvers and they are GORGEOUS ( THOUGH I am not sure that they were the ones picked).

 

I'm gonna save my outrage til I know I have something to complain about, I think.

Edited September 30, 2015 by Silverswift

[birdzgoboom]

... I think Reds are in desperate need of having all four feet planted on the ground. Wouldn't you think they'd be tired by now of standing on an invisible hill?

Well, it does sound like a good butt, thigh and bicep workout. |D Probably calves, too. Maybe that's why they're so ripped.

 

Edit: I was reading Marie's post and I was wondering... will there be a "Museum" area with all the old sprites, obviously post-copyright-issues? I do not mean on the Wikia, I mean as part of the Encyclopedia. Or something like the Wilderness or the Graveyard but showing the old images.

 

Awh, this is actually a pretty cute idea. o:

[AGYK]

Edit: I was reading Marie's post and I was wondering... will there be a "Museum" area with all the old sprites, obviously post-copyright-issues? I do not mean on the Wikia, I mean as part of the Encyclopedia. Or something like the Wilderness or the Graveyard but showing the old images.

This would actually be pretty cool.

[Fiona]

Edit: I was reading Marie's post and I was wondering... will there be a "Museum" area with all the old sprites, obviously post-copyright-issues? I do not mean on the Wikia, I mean as part of the Encyclopedia. Or something like the Wilderness or the Graveyard but showing the old images.

Not a bad idea, though I think certain sprites that were updated ought not to be there. For example, when shadow walkers were released there were some... issues that I hadn't caught and Nakase hadn't had a chance to address. The sprites were updated within 24 hours. The "old" sprites would not belong there. (I wish they weren't on the wiki either but be allowed to vanish into the ether, but that's a separate issue)

 

Maybe such an Encyclopedia section would help those struggling with the updated sprites?