2015-09-27 - Encyclopedia Update (and more)

[Ashywolf]

There are two general opinions on sprite changes. One is the character and personality (which we can also call the "look" of a sprite). The other is the precision/skill/technique of the sprite.

 

If we look at all sprite changes in history, all the new sprites are better. Much better. But this is based on point two, not point one. Point two is more important for the site, as this site strives for well done art. Unfortunately improving art can come at the cost of changing the look or personality of the sprite.

 

I hate to generalize, but I'd imagine artists or those who work with sprites are more likely to look at point two. For instance, when I see a sprite change I'm looking at the quality and shading and details of the sprite rather than the character of how it looks. For those who don't work with sprites they are more likely to look at the character rather than look closely at how the details are achieved and how the shading works. So these updates are appealing to those who support point two, but not those who support point one.

 

That isn't to say character/look of sprites isn't important, quite the opposite, but it is which point you prioritize and base most of your opinions on.

 

So for those who like the look of their sprites, don't want a new looking sprite, and don't understand the necessity for change, that is the basis behind the "madness". So please appreciate that the changes are done for good intentions, not to intentionally annoy those who like the look of the old sprites. Leaving the sprites as is irritates those who support point two, but changing them irritates those who support point one, it is hard to strike the balance but we try...

 

Mini-rant over

 

Some people will disagree with me on how each side of the coin "works", and others will disagree that there is only two sides to said coin, but that is how I see it.

Edited October 1, 2015 by Ashywolf

[Spiteful_Crow]

Splits are one I would love to see updated, they have always been one of my least favorite dragons from day one.

On behalf of my miniature army of Splits, which were my first favorite dragon, I am now obligated to fight you. I say we duel at dusk, because I am more of a night owl than an early bird. You get the first choice of weapons.

[Naruhina_94]

There are two general opinions on sprite changes. One is the character and personality (which we can also call the "look" of a sprite). The other is the precision/skill/technique of the sprite.

 

If we look at all sprite changes in history, all the new sprites are better. Much better. But this is based on point two, not point one. Point two is more important for the site, as this site strives for well done art. Unfortunately improving art can come at the cost of changing the look or personality of the sprite.

 

I hate to generalize, but I'd imagine artists or those who work with sprites are more likely to look at point two. For instance, when I see a sprite change I'm looking at the quality and shading and details of the sprite rather than the character of how it looks. For those who don't work with sprites they are more likely to look at the character rather than look closely at how the details are achieved and how the shading works. So these updates are appealing to those who support point two, but not those who support point one.

 

That isn't to say character/look of sprites isn't important, quite the opposite, but it is which point you prioritize and base most of your opinions on.

 

So for those who like the look of their sprites, don't want a new looking sprite, and don't understand the necessity for change, that is the basis behind the "madness". So please appreciate that the changes are done for good intentions, not to intentionally annoy those who like the look of the old sprites. Leaving the sprites as is irritates those who support point two, but changing them irritates those who support point one, it is hard to strike the balance but we try...

 

Mini-rant over

 

Some people will disagree with me on how each side of the coin "works", and others will disagree that there is only two sides to said coin, but that is how I see it.

Perfectly agree with you. I actually like changes most because I like Dragon Cave to be open to them. I wish to play with my dragons even 10 years after this post, and surely a well done dragon is a strong appeal for new users, so... I think that even if I will personally don't like the new sprite (very unlikely) I will still appreciat the change if it improves the general look.

I would have left pose and colors of male silver and totally changed adult female, actually. Anyway I wish to see them bright, metallic looks as they were actually made of silver because.. that's what they are, that's all.

[codyne]

So for those who like the look of their sprites, don't want a new looking sprite, and don't understand the necessity for change, that is the basis behind the "madness". So please appreciate that the changes are done for good intentions, not to intentionally annoy those who like the look of the old sprites. Leaving the sprites as is irritates those who support point two, but changing them irritates those who support point one, it is hard to strike the balance but we try...

I get it, but what am I supposed to do? Continue to play a game that makes me cringe every time I look at my scroll because it's "for the good of the site"? Obviously, I'm in the minority and things aren't going to change on my account, so I'll just go play my other games and let you folk get on with it.

[NotBambi]

I would have left pose and colors of male silver and totally changed adult female, actually.

But... but... that neck?

[Odeen]

I get it, but what am I supposed to do? Continue to play a game that makes me cringe every time I look at my scroll because it's "for the good of the site"? Obviously, I'm in the minority and things aren't going to change on my account, so I'll just go play my other games and let you folk get on with it.

MMORPGs like World of Warcraft see huge graphical updates all the time - they even devoted an entire expansion to completely remaking the original two continents because it had become so dated and clunky as to be obtrusive. Their players actually pay to play that game and still get little to no say in what comes next, largely because "what's next" tends to be in development long before "what's current" can be properly judged by the community at large. The only way they can weigh in on the efficacy of the content provided to them is to either keep paying their subscription fee or cancel their account.

 

Not every feature or change suits everyone, even when those changes literally have to happen. Diversity is great! Don't ever feel like you're forced to do things that don't make you happy, especially if you're supposed to be doing them for fun. Sometimes, though, it's worth it to find something more permanent to love about a game that keeps you around through the changes.

 

Had I been playing WoW all these years because I loved huge PvP wars outside Tarren Mill, I'd have gotten bored and quit like 6 months after the game even launched when they put in battlegrounds. Had I done it because I loved wall jumping my way into unreleased areas, I'd have had to quit sometime before the Wrath expansion. What I chose to latch onto instead was the camaraderie and teamwork involved in endgame raiding, and ten years later I still find myself tempted back when I decide to take breaks.

[Jennie]

Sometimes, though, it's worth it to find something more permanent to love about a game that keeps you around through the changes.

 

I joined Dragon Cave in 2008. At that time, there were no biomes, and I was unable to catch any specific CB eggs for the first few years I belonged. I got nearly all my dragons from the AP, or as gifts from players on the click sites on LiveJournal. All I knew about playing the game came from experience, or from other players on those sites. I was reluctant to join this forum because I figured I'd be laughed at for my lack of experience and CB dragons. I knew nothing about lineages, because my eggs came from the AP, so when I bred my dragons, I paid no attention to that, but only to the fact I thought it would be fun to breed those two dragons. And yet, I still had lots of fun with the Dragon Cave. The click sites in those days were fun. Silvi's and the other automated sites either hadn't been created yet or were in their early stages. Most people went to the click sites on LJ, and we would click on each other's eggs and hatchlings, and say how pretty they were and chat back and forth, and give each other eggs and hatchlings as gifts. That was fun, and I miss it. That sort of atmosphere doesn't exist on the automated sites that I use, and there are few people left on the old click sites.

 

Then the biomes were created, and it was easier to catch eggs, but some people complained about that. But I was finally able to catch eggs in the cave. I finally joined this forum, and began to read about how stupid it was to breed dragons without creating lineages, but I still don't care about that. Though I did begin to feel self-conscious about it. I keep expecting someone from the forum to send me a message that my 'lineages' are crappy. I think I'll go breed a couple of dragons with messy lineages to make an even messier one, as soon as I have room on my scroll. :-)

 

I was never able to catch any CB golds or silvers, or a whole lot of other rare dragons. But somehow I still enjoy playing this game. I still don't care about lineages, but I still enjoy playing the game. Every change in the Dragon Cave has been welcome as far as I'm concerned, if I even notice it.

 

I understand that people play for different reasons, and that some of this stuff bothers other players. Like the people who post about messy lineages and how troubling they are, for example. What I'm trying to say here, is that it's possible to have fun playing on DC without even being able to create perfect lineages, because I did so for years. I'm not saying that people have to play like I do, I'm just saying that it's possible. That's why I don't understand how the game could be 'ruined' just because the look of one dragon has changed. I'm not telling people they have no right to feel that way, I'm just having trouble understanding how one simple change in the look of one dragon can ruin the entire game.

Edited October 2, 2015 by Jennie

[Fuzzbucket]

If we look at all sprite changes in history, all the new sprites are better. Much better.

Well, NO. You cannot define "better" for all of us. Better is in the eye of the beholder. An improvement for one person can be something that is anathema to another.

 

I am told smart phones are "better" than what I have. But no, for me they aren't. All I want is a phone I can use to SMS. That is ALL I want in a cell phone. A smart phone would SERIOUSLY annoy me. I have borrowed a phone that did a bit more than mine does, and I hated it.

 

No one player here can define what is "better" for any other player. Sorry, but there it is.

[Kith]

When you're talking the subjective value of the viewer, some improvements are better and some are worse, and reactions will of course differ by person. But in terms of technical skill and craftsmanship, they're each an improvement, just as I'd look at a horse I drew this year and say it was "better" than one I drew ten years ago. That doesn't mean my mother (or anyone else) will prefer this year's horse, but I'd consider it a better representation of my artistic talent. Different viewpoints, each with their own value.

[Syphoneira]

There are two general opinions on sprite changes. One is the character and personality (which we can also call the "look" of a sprite). The other is the precision/skill/technique of the sprite.

 

If we look at all sprite changes in history, all the new sprites are better. Much better. But this is based on point two, not point one. Point two is more important for the site, as this site strives for well done art. Unfortunately improving art can come at the cost of changing the look or personality of the sprite.

 

I hate to generalize, but I'd imagine artists or those who work with sprites are more likely to look at point two. For instance, when I see a sprite change I'm looking at the quality and shading and details of the sprite rather than the character of how it looks. For those who don't work with sprites they are more likely to look at the character rather than look closely at how the details are achieved and how the shading works. So these updates are appealing to those who support point two, but not those who support point one.

 

That isn't to say character/look of sprites isn't important, quite the opposite, but it is which point you prioritize and base most of your opinions on.

 

So for those who like the look of their sprites, don't want a new looking sprite, and don't understand the necessity for change, that is the basis behind the "madness". So please appreciate that the changes are done for good intentions, not to intentionally annoy those who like the look of the old sprites. Leaving the sprites as is irritates those who support point two, but changing them irritates those who support point one, it is hard to strike the balance but we try...

 

Mini-rant over 

 

Some people will disagree with me on how each side of the coin "works", and others will disagree that there is only two sides to said coin, but that is how I see it.

 

 

 

Great post!

 

 

I couldn't understand how it was that some people read criticism of those eager for change into the posts of those saying that the history, character and associations mattered to them, personally, and that they, personally, were unhappy at the prospect of losing their own particular dragons and lineages no matter how beautiful the replacements, although we all do have different perceptions which may fundamentally affect the way we interpret things. But this would explain the responses from some, who did indeed appear to hear our expressions of our own, personal feelings as some sort of criticism of theirs.

 

Some of this difference of course stems from the viewpoint so eloquently elucidated by Ashywolf: those who see their dragons as pets are unlikely to regard imperfections as a problem and, as stated, character and other issues may matter far more to these than a glossy perfection which may be regarded by them as soulless in any replacement. Since the site initially lured a lot of us in on the premise of 'saving baby dragons' by adoption, though, there are a fair number of pet-oriented people here, so this degree of unhappiness with such changes - especially regarding our most historic remaining icons - shouldn't be unexpected, as there are emotional attachments involved with these last vestiges of DC's history, and we will mourn them.

 

Lol, I don't think anyone thinks the changes are done to annoy us, just that the site's general direction apparently continues away from a pet-collection site into one with more of a trade-value emphasis, which will also make us sad - there's still a huge market for us sentimental types which we'd hoped DC would supply the demand for.

 

While I hadn't consciously or specifically considered this aspect, as mentioned, I still haven't seen a post from what I'll term the pet-viewpoint side which I thought was critical of those with other imperatives in trying to establish the validity of ours, and I suppose it's also being considered by some, consciously or not, as a competing viewpoint with theirs, in the larger sense of this site direction, this trend also adding, even unconsciously, to our sense of loss...

 

 

 

And fuzzbucket has nailed another aspect: ' ... You cannot define "better" for all of us. Better is in the eye of the beholder. An improvement for one person can be something that is anathema to another. ...'

 

[cyradis4]

Well, NO. You cannot define "better" for all of us. Better is in the eye of the beholder. An improvement for one person can be something that is anathema to another.

 

I am told smart phones are "better" than what I have. But no, for me they aren't. All I want is a phone I can use to SMS. That is ALL I want in a cell phone. A smart phone would SERIOUSLY annoy me. I have borrowed a phone that did a bit more than mine does, and I hated it.

 

No one player here can define what is "better" for any other player. Sorry, but there it is.

Since Ashy is an artistic type, I think what she was aiming for was "technically superior artwork", rather then beauty. Myself? I could have done without the Sunrise / Sunset dimorphism and sprite updates. The male Sunsets are too shiny, and the Sunrise new male and Sunset new female have poses I don't like, either.

 

And yet..... Fuzz, I think you are missing the point. The point really is, Silvers are 1 of just 2 in-cave true Rares, the top of the game.... And visually (to someone who doesn't already love them), they look very old, dated, and grey.

 

As much as many people love the current sprite (and I am most emphatically *not* one of them), they just don't make the grade. Not when the bar is set so high, because of what they are. If they were a common, I'd say keep them! But since they aren't.....

 

So in the end.... Its in the SITE's best interests to have the Silvers updated. Though I would love an in-game Museum, where we can see the (non-copy-writed) sprites through the years.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[Jennie]

... those who see their dragons as pets are unlikely to regard imperfections as a problem and, as stated, character and other issues may matter far more to these than a glossy perfection which may be regarded by them as soulless in any replacement.

 

Okay, this I get. But that character of DC has been changing for years. For example, the whole lineage breeding thing. 'Messy lineages' are regarded as some kind of crime. I don't think that was the case in the beginning. The fact that those click sites on LiveJournal, that I mentioned in my post above, only have a few members and most people put their eggs and hatchlings up on huge automated sites.

 

I miss those clicks sites, as I said above. Members got to know each other's names and watched as each other's eggs and hatchlings grew. It felt personal. The auto sites, like Silvi's, are huge and impersonal. There's much less of a feeling of dragons being pets.

 

This August release lasted a long time, and the discussion thread on this forum went well over 300 pages. For the first time, I was posting regularily as each new colour came out, and I started to feel a bit like I was back in the old days of raising dragons being more personal. As the thread ran down, getting close to the end, I posted a short, simple message that I'd miss the discussion. That was a mistake! My post was deleted by the moderator within a few minutes without any explanation, leaving me to figure out that it must have been considered Off Topic! So, I went back and deleted every post I'd made in that thread. Next release, I'm going back to how I posted before: A simple message thanking TJ for the new release. Period. I learned something that day. The days of feeling like you belong to a community of pet owners is gone. Long gone. There's no way to go back to how things used to be.

 

I guess that's why I see a change in one dragon's appearance as being a small thing.

Edited October 1, 2015 by Jennie

[Fuzzbucket]

Since Ashy is an artistic type, I think what she was aiming for was "technically superior artwork", rather then beauty. Myself? I could have done without the Sunrise / Sunset dimorphism and sprite updates. The male Sunsets are too shiny, and the Sunrise new male and Sunset new female have poses I don't like, either.

 

And yet..... Fuzz, I think you are missing the point. The point really is, Silvers are 1 of just 2 in-cave true Rares, the top of the game.... And visually (to someone who doesn't already love them), they look very old, dated, and grey.

 

As much as many people love the current sprite (and I am most emphatically *not* one of them), they just don't make the grade. Not when the bar is set so high, because of what they are. If they were a common, I'd say keep them! But since they aren't.....

 

So in the end.... Its in the SITE's best interests to have the Silvers updated. Though I would love an in-game Museum, where we can see the (non-copy-writed) sprites through the years.

 

Cheers!

C4.

I'm not missing the point. I KNOW some people want them "updated". My point is that better is not better for everyone, and I don't give a flying for the fact that they are rare. I just like the way they look just fine, and I trust Marri that that essential look will not change. As long as it doesn't - I will live with it. But I am NOT missing the point. And I HONESTLY don't think anyone will be put off the site just because it may have a few sprites they don't like. There are quite a few I REALLY dislike. That I have always disliked. And that actually includes some of the new-style wonderful all bells jingling whizzy ones, actually

 

But it never stops me playing. Nor would it. I shall, however be gutted if my lineages become unpleasing to my eye !

 

edited for emotion leading to mass typos

Edited October 1, 2015 by fuzzbucket

[LadyLyzar]

There are times when we look at our work and say, "What on earth was I thinking?"

 

That is why I feel only the original artist should update sprites OR give permission for others to do so. (Also, to avoid hurt feelings.)

 

The Silvers were a special case - we knew previously that Kitoxa had wanted to shine them up, so that's why that update topic stayed public and open for anyone to try, since she had been MIA for so long.

 

I know this is a bit of a step backwards, but I actually really liked the Velveteen Rabbit analogy. However, I saw it differently - by keeping the spirit of the sprites and trying to make them more beautiful, we are the fairy that makes them Real for everyone.

 

(Also, the Sunrises and Sunsets were always meant to be dimorphic. I also didn't know much about spriting at all when I made the male Sunset, and he was way too dark and had no highlighting whatsoever. Their wings and scutes are supposed to glow vibrantly when they take in sunlight, and he didn't reflect that whatsoever.)

 

Can't want to see the changes roll through. I think most of you will be pleasantly surprised.

 

I'm well aware that not everyone will be happy, but it is impossible to please everyone wherever you go.

[Dragon_Arbock]

I think I'll like these sprite updates, but I do understand why people may be opposed.

For me, most of the sprite updates I've seen dragons go through only made them better in my eyes, like the tweaks the female Purples went through, for example.

 

Most got updates to make them look more detailed, or two just clean up their anatomy. I remember some people being mad about the Golds, but the thing about them they always felt like a sketch on the scroll, which was a concept that by this point was clearly outdated, and they needed some fixing, even if I'm not crazy about the new Male Gold's pose (or possibly that they lost their scaled bellies, which is only visible on the male sprite.) Regardless, they needed the update, kept most of their defining features, and we got much better sprites out of it.

 

The Valentine 09's however.. this is where I can understand some people;

->

I fell like the update of the Val 09's was not nearly as needed, and it does not feel like an improvement. Little was gained, and if anything, the dragon lost detail and much of its personality.

For some reason I never see anyone really talk about the Val 09's change, but I figured I'd bring it up- I doubt these new planned sprites for the Silvers will be a downgrade like this, but I can understand why some people may be anxious.

[Marrionetta]

Little was gained, and if anything, the dragon lost detail and much of its personality.

I dunno, man, I think she put on at least 40lbs.

[AGYK]

I dunno, man, I think she put on at least 40lbs.

Doesn't everyone do that over V-Day though? All that sweet sweet chocolate and candy... even the tiny Sweetlings probably have their fill.

[Dragon_Arbock]

I dunno, man, I think she put on at least 40lbs.

I am aware you are the spriter. I mean no disrespect- it's just a personal opinion of mine that I liked the more wild and angular design of the old sprites.

It just feels to me that they got 'softened up.'

[Mokastar712]

The Magelight still hasn't gotten an encyclopedia page. When's that going to happen?

[Marrionetta]

I am aware you are the spriter. I mean no disrespect- it's just a personal opinion of mine that I liked the more wild and angular design of the old sprites.

It just feels to me that they got 'softened up.'

Fat does that.

 

I prefer the new ones. Guess ultimately that's what mattered.

 

The Magelight still hasn't gotten an encyclopedia page. When's that going to happen?

 

I AM SO SORRY I JUST

 

I'm bad at writing. ;_; I haven't gotten around to it because I am a lazy pile of poo.

Edited October 1, 2015 by Marrionetta

[cyradis4]

I am aware you are the spriter. I mean no disrespect- it's just a personal opinion of mine that I liked the more wild and angular design of the old sprites.

It just feels to me that they got 'softened up.'

I dunno, I really really like the re-done Val 09 much better.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[Lizzyluna]

I AM SO SORRY I JUST

 

I'm bad at writing. ;_; I haven't gotten around to it because I am a lazy pile of poo.

Don't crumble! There are many pages with pretty pictures and no infos!

Also, I'm still disappointed for the loss of the swirl flower on Valentines, but the eggs... I see one and can't resist. The egg rules.

[Tehya Faye]

Yeah, the swirly thing is about the only detail on the old one I kinda like over the new one. The old wings look kinda odd, and the old heart at the end of the tail seems like it could be pulled off with a gentle tug. I prefer the new one.

Edited October 1, 2015 by Tehya Faye

[Nerei]

The Valentine 09's however.. this is where I can understand some people;

->

I fell like the update of the Val 09's was not nearly as needed, and it does not feel like an improvement. Little was gained, and if anything, the dragon lost detail and much of its personality.

For some reason I never see anyone really talk about the Val 09's change, but I figured I'd bring it up- I doubt these new planned sprites for the Silvers will be a downgrade like this, but I can understand why some people may be anxious.

I see tremendous improvement here. The wings were really crazy, and the shading was so fuzzy. Not to mention that she shouldn't be able to stand like that. All that I can see that was "lost" was a bit of swirly pink magic around her hand. I feel like more detail was added than taken away. I wouldn't consider this a downgrade at all, quite the opposite. I'd be perfectly fine with it if the silvers were updated similarly to this.

 

What if the change were more like this?

->

Edited October 1, 2015 by Niyaka

[NotBambi]

I am aware you are the spriter. I mean no disrespect- it's just a personal opinion of mine that I liked the more wild and angular design of the old sprites.

It just feels to me that they got 'softened up.'

Sorry to disagree but, IMHO, the new sprite looks so much better.

Fat does that.

I prefer the new ones. Guess ultimately that's what mattered.

LOL

Edited October 1, 2015 by NotBambi