2015-09-27 - Encyclopedia Update (and more)

[Fiona]

"the Fog" refers to a two week period back in 2008 (January? February?) The site used to use copyright protected sprites from other games. When TJ was made aware that this was illegal a "fog" descended, blanking out all the sprites, and when it lifted there were all new sprites, made by people here, to replace the copyright protected sprites.

 

"Mod Mayhem" was a release in 2009 in which the forum mods had put their heads together and chosen several new breeds, which TJ released. It was lots of fun.

 

When TJ says retroactive on the silvers, he means all the silvers, currently on scrolls and yet to come, will be changed to the new sprites.

[BluefootTheWarrior]

I love updates!

PS/EDIT:

Super pumped for the Halloween event this year too!

Edited September 30, 2015 by BluefootTheWarrior

[NotBambi]

For the people concerned about the (silver) sprite updates...

 

I was going to refrain from posting it, but perhaps this thread should ease some worries?

 

I don't know that any of the sprites on that thread will actually be the updated sprite, but there is always a possibility

 

(Read: Possible spoilers, link whited out for those who don't want to risk being possibly spoiled.)

 

 

Silver revamp thread

 

 

 

 

P.S. if anyone needs to click on some Tangars for the encyclopedia info, I have a bajillion of them

Thanks for the link. The tread was quite... educational. Now, I can understand a bit better. I am told that TJ does not consider polls but... Adding the results of that poll to the fact that users opposing change tend to be more "vocal", any site owner would be encouraged to proceed with the update

[shadowfighter]

*sigh* I honestly don't understand why people are soooo upset about the sprites changing. We don't have any voice in the matter, it is TJ and the spriters decision to change them. It's going to happen. Complaining over a forum won't change anything, and it only lets negative energies grow.. I understand nostalgia and all that, but honestly, things change, there is no use crying because the pixels of a dragon will change.

 

[Myra the Sark]

Hooray for an excuse to get back to DC!

...I have forgotten everything's egg-descriptions...

[zaverxi]

Hmmmm on the subject of the mobile site update, I wonder if anyone's tried making an app for dragcave? Because my phone dislikes my browser and dragcave is one of those that take forever to open.

[blockEdragon]

i'm glad for the silver updates i mean the females are supposed to be the most radiant beautiful creatures ever looked at with awe by everyone who sees them but they are.....not

the males are much prettier (its just criticism and opinions)

 

I hope they become more eastern and glowy looking and overall majestic looking

Edited September 30, 2015 by blockEdragon

[birdzgoboom]

Also, is she really?  Thanks~

I absolutely was

*touches Roy's face* my boy ;-------; he's so beautiful all the time ueeeeehhh

 

Hmmmm on the subject of the mobile site update, I wonder if anyone's tried making an app for dragcave? Because my phone dislikes my browser and dragcave is one of those that take forever to open.

I would love to see a DC app someday. Apps are neat and I'm a bigger fan of those than mobile sites as well. But a mobile site update is also really good too, so hopefully it'll make accessing and using DC on my phone even easier. ;v;"

[zaverxi]

To be perfectly honest, speaking as someone who once ran a sort of similar site, the idea that the "history of the site/sprites" is actually important enough to sacrifice having decent-looking up-to-date sprites to is ludicrous. The site's playerbase isn't entirely made up of people for whom the current silver is nostalgic. People join every single day and to many of them the silver just looks wonky and ugly. Those players matter just as much as people who've been around forever and they too deserve to have their opinions and needs considered. And for those players the "history of the site" is meaningless. All they know is they're stuck with a subpar sprite for one of the rarest and most prized dragons in the whole game, when there are caveblocker commons that look better. That is honestly not a good thing for the game as a whole. The health of the whole game needs to be considered, not just nostalgia. I'm sorry if that's upsetting to some people, but that's reality.

 

And quite frankly, on another note altogether, speaking as someone who's been playing since '09? I have ALWAYS hated the silvers. I have ALWAYS thought they were embarrassingly bad to be so rare and prized. The actual design of the dragons is fine, but the execution is godawful. (And mind you, I say that as an artist myself. I have produced plenty of godawful work myself. I'm not trying to dump on the artist. It happens. ) They don't even look silver, they look gray, and the anatomy problems are really, really painful. It only gets worse looking at them again and again over time, especially now that I own a decent number of them. The new gold is SO much better than the original gold that I can't begin to imagine why people would be so anxious over a new silver, personally. I grant there is definitely the chance that the new will be worse than the old, but I don't think that's very likely given the massive amount of spriting skill we have around the site these days.

 

FWIW, yes, the original pre-Fog dragons were all stolen from various sources and had to be replaced due to copyright. TJ I guess didn't realize at the time that pictures on the Internet are not necessarily free for all to use any way they want (which again is not a slam at TJ - that's an extremely common misconception, even among people you'd think would know better.)

Also wasn't TJ like... 17 when he first made Dragcave?

 

I do have to admit that I, too, never really liked the silver sprites. I dislike the female a lot because it doesn't look pretty at all. The male at least looks pretty cool, although I extremely dislike the bend in the neck. It makes the poor dragon look like his neck is broken, necks do NOT bend like that, especially not a reptilian-based life form. An owl or cat, perhaps, but even they can't bend their necks at an absurd angle like that.

 

 

I've been playing since 2008 and I also think the silver sprites are in need of an update. I was thrilled when golds were replaced. I still kick myself for the fact that I abandoned several CB golds when I was first playing because they were ugly. :/ I only ever wanted my 3 silvers too, two males and a female. I could've gotten a lot more of both shinies if I had only liked the sprites.

 

So long as the color schemes are the same I don't foresee any issue. But since every single 'revamp' involved the same color scheme, it'll be ok.

 

 

And I'm pretty sure TJ put the old gold sprite on there as a thumb to the nose at all the people who strongly objected to that sprite update too ahaha.

[PrairieStead]

I love these updates. I especially look forward to the mobile site update.

 

Thank-you TJ for yet another wonderful improvement to Dragon Cave this year.

 

I'm also looking forward to the next special dragon(s) for Halloween. The growing cleverness with each new dragon has been quite interesting and engaging.

 

Thanks to all the spriters and conceivers of these great new and updated dragons.

[Syphoneira]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well, I've just finally got it together to read through the thread so far.

 

Something very noticeable, regarding the sprite changes to Silvers (and Hollies), are that those concerned about the changes, whether wishing for no change at all or only a very few tweaks, seem to be at least equal to those ecstatic at the prospect of change - and even that among the group OK with or happy for change, those mentioning specific new sprites they'd hope for from the Silver re-spriting thread tended to specify different examples as those they'd most (or only) hope for.

 

(Although I notice that this has altered on later pages, as it seems that people unhappy about this have become discouraged about participating in the thread commentary - can't say I blame them.)

 

This is because we all have different tastes. No matter what a sprite is altered to or how gorgeous it may appear to some, not everyone is going to like the result, especially *as a replacement for the Silvers/Hollies*, even if they'd have loved it as a regular New Release - potentially strongly affected by their natural feelings regarding what they may thereafter regard as an interloper substituted for dragons taken from their scrolls and lineages.

 

We have fabulous spriters here and it's certainly no reflection on their awesome abilities if not everyone happens to like every sprite they may create - because (this bears repeating) we all have different tastes and not everyone is going to like every sprite and many will regard any sprite change resulting in their losing sprites and lineages they value as a substitution with impostors. This is not 'drama', this is input we're seeing.

 

There are a number of sprites here which I personally happen not to like much or at all, some (very) few of which I actually don't want on my scroll, even in lineages; other people may love them because they ARE exactly to their taste and it would never occur to me to think that they should be changed or replaced to suit MY taste, I simply collect other dragons - because we all have different tastes and it's best that there is enough variety within the standards of DC that so far as is feasible, ALL individual tastes can be satisfied, not just those of any particular group among the rest.

 

Another thing is that the people silly enough to become attached to their sprites (and not 'because they're rares' but because they love the sprites/lineages/history) and to care about the history of the site are obviously among those most attached to the site itself, most likely to show up on a daily basis, run fansite Viewers regularly and be concerned that the site does well so that their dragons continue to exist. Discounting these dedicated and more emotionally invested members on the theory that new people potentially concerned more with chasing rares are of greater import on the grounds that they could be turned off joining if seeing an older and - in the estimation of some - imperfect and 'outdated', if well-beloved, sprite, seems rather illogical, as the older dragons are now a relative few among many and also as many of these new people may play multiple games, will just be trying DC out to see if it suits, and obviously may have a less enduring interest in the game than those glorying in the historical dragons on their scrolls for personal reasons.

 

Why not simply continue the old Silvers as Commons or UnCommons for those who like them and don't see any point to the concept of 'rares' which simply amount to unavailability for many and Release the new version as a rare with a slightly different description, thereby removing many problems? Why not Release the NEW Holly at Christmas this year as a CB and let people keep the old as a separate variation? Why is it necessary to take beloved dragons and lineages right off peoples scrolls to be replaced with a 'better' version by the standards of some, rather than simply Releasing the new version separately? Yes, people would have to catch the new ones, same as always, but this seems far more reasonable than depriving everyone, willy-nilly, of all examples of Silvers and Hollies on their scrolls.

 

Seriously, what's the point of spending possibly years on lineages when the dragons within them may be changed or exchanged at any time for others? I know that my interest in lineage breeding, already thoroughly dampened by repeated Refusals, (which do seem to have drastically dropped in incidence some time back, thank goodness, or possibly TJ, no idea,) has been flattened by this and my long-running hopeful plans for bred Holidays has been deflated. So there goes the bulk of one of my previous major DC interests, apart from New Releases, and much of the recently expanded (collecting/breeding Silver & Holiday, technically year-round-breedable, lineages! at last!) fun of DC Holidays, which for years has constituted the bulk of my celebrations of these times. And I know that I'm not alone in all of this.

 

(I don't like the history-rewrite now becoming so common and resulting in nonsense like the 'new, improved health-conscious Santa', bereft of his traditional pipe and jelly-belly, either, although since he's not on my scroll, I can just snort, snicker and pass on.)

 

But for many of us, the Holly has always been the iconic DC Christmas dragon (and we may happen to adore that long neck and current, worn-with-loving Velveteen Rabbit* appearance, as is) and for many of us, exchanging it, along with the Silvers, for another, probably similar, 'new and improved' dragon changes a lot more than a sprite. It changes the way we feel about DC, the way DC management evidently feels about DC's own history, traditions and some of its more inherently loyal members, (as opposed to possible new players it's been said might be turned off by seeing older sprites treasured by many players,) and solidifies the feeling that our scrolls, eternally living dragons and lineages are not at all secure and that perhaps we have too much invested in the site.

 

When sprites are changed, possessions which various people may value highly - both sprites and lineages possibly representing years of work - are being taken from their scrolls and replaced with something different. Not only have they lost collections which mattered to them, but the inviolability of their scrolls has again been broken and any feeling of security with it.

 

I also find it odd that any mention of people having an option of even being able to see on their own scrolls the most iconic DC sprites and lineages they've collected after a change tends to be met with a response that then other people would want to have the ('dreadful, unwanted' by their tastes) old sprites too, (apparently fair to deprive existing players of what they already have, but not anyone else of gaining what's implied as being something unfashionable which nobody SHOULD want, although I dunno whether I'd really want to be seeing an 'alternate reality' different to what others see, myself, especially for gifting/trading, where old Silver lineages might look great but terrible with the new sprites on the scroll of another) while any suggestion of both old and new sprites being available is also typically rejected.

 

 

Some of us don't value particular sprites for the sake of rarity or because they're anatomically perfect; many people simply collect dragons according to what they like, what they can do with them and how they make them feel, which is also what people tend to do with RL art acquisition. What speaks to one person may leave another cold; what's an essential icon to one may be merely an interchangeable decoration to another, or something they wouldn't have in their house. I d feel that we ought to be celebrating, or at least tolerating, and attempting to accommodate our differences, rather than attempting to force everyone's tastes into the same mold - something which is never going to happen. Taste in style/art - and taste in general - is deeply personal and highly individual, as are personal attachments to objects we value on an emotional level.

 

One other point: when first looking through my scroll, upon coming back to DC after 7 months without internet, being rather ill and groggy, I noticed my Whiptails and dozily wondered why I'd ever liked them so much, having at the time forgotten about the minor changes which I had actually been here for, although as I recall, they didn't seem much changed at the time, just... slightly different. Like the SunRises, Summer and Autumn Seasonals and others I'd loved prior to their change, they are simply no longer to my personal taste.

 

Some people will like various alterations, others won't - and, importantly, ANY of the sprites will potentially also appear very differently, especially with regard to colour, on different monitors, although I've also noticed sprites somehow looking quite different as well, doubtless due to different colouration/accents altering the actual appearance. A sprite which looks good on one system may look not-so-hot on another, this also being why the soft, burnished old-silvery glow of the Silvers, (which I found to be also different and somewhat less beautiful a couple of years ago on my then-new computer than it had been on my old ones, each having some variation, as with the downstairs computer and elsewhere, whether better or worse regarding different sprites,) may appear dull and grey-ish on some monitors. In this most recent Release, people have been referring to the Silver Lunar Heralds as 'Whites', because this is how they appear on their systems. The same people may see different things on different monitors, which increases the virtual impossibility of satisfying everyone with any amount of change.

 

 

 

Since we all have different tastes and DC is played by different people of all ages all over the world, quite frankly, it seems counter-productive to urge that a conformity of style suiting some players over others be applied to all sprites, regardless of all else.

 

As individuals, what we care about may not depend upon standard and changing fashions or perfection, and, to mangle the old cliche, we may not know art, but we DO know what we like and it matters to us. Especially when it comes down to losing what we already have and care about.

 

 

*An old story from a more sentimental time (written in 1922 and so doubtless considered outdated, like the preferences of some of us older players, lol,) the sort of thing which some of us had read to us as very young children and may barely remember, (I'd falsely remembered something about the bunny being thrown out because shabby and old, not contagious, and really just remembered the name,) but which doubtless coloured our developing perceptions. Modernists will doubtless snicker at those sorts of children's books and concepts, but that's the sort of infant book - and influence - which was cherished and passed down in families to be read to pre-schoolers back when.

 

http://digital.library.upenn.edu/women/wil...bit/rabbit.html

 

 

[Odeen]

So can we have a SparkNotes version, or...?

[Tehya Faye]

I find it weird that she's actually putting forth the idea of making the new Silvers some sort of separate rare breed after talking so much about how all the prettiest and desirable sprites end up being unavailable for the majority of the userbase. Pretty sure she'd be complaining if it actually went down like that. I know I would be.

[Stormcaller]

Thank you for all the time and effort you put into making your long post, Syphoneira. I think you've done an excellent job of summing the situation up.

And thanks for the link to that wonderful old story. I had to read the whole thing again.

[pederino]

Well, I've just finally got it together to read through the thread so far.

 

Something very noticeable, regarding the sprite changes to Silvers [...]

I am just going with the main point, the silvers update (note, i didnt read everything, a bit more than the half).

 

The silvers need an update, not for personal reasons, but business. The site runs from donations of users, and more users means an easier and more reliable income. How can you atracct new users but with shinies and pretties? And unfortunately the silvers are not exactly pretty (look at the face of the male silver and tell it doesnt look very toad-like for a dragon, an eastern dragon to be precise), and, even being silvers, they dont shine all that much (the blue lunar herald is more shiny than the silver for example). For the time, they were the best of the best of course, but now, they are quickly falling behind, and sooner or later, an update is inevitable, specially for a dragon as important as the silver (all dragons are important, but the silver and the gold are, ATM, the only true rares we have).

And making them drop like common or uncommon while getting the newer wont help the issue, because their value will go down like a rock in the water, and people will see they actually liked the dragon because it was rare, or because they became too attached to it. It would only show the truth of the silvers now.

What could be an option is that users can choose which version of the sprite they can see, but the default will always be the most recent version. But even then, I have my doubts.

Edited September 30, 2015 by pederino

[Natayah]

I for one support and welcome our new Sprite Updating OverLords... No seriously, I am very excited about upcoming updates! All Updates!! Especially too the non spriting ones!

 

Although I am excited about finally getting that Holly anatomy update that will finally give me my long sought after Two Headed Holly!!

Edited September 30, 2015 by natayah

[NotBambi]

@Syphoneira: assuming technically possible to choose an option to see the old sprites but not the new ones (maybe with a different library of images) and that TJ would agree, would that be acceptable? Obviously would be all or nothing: old Whiptail, old Silver etc.

[Wahya]

-snip-

I'd like to thank you for your post. It's a slightly different explanation of what I and other users have posted, and compared to my own post on the matter, is much more eloquent and robust.

 

I really liked your "Velveteen Rabbit" analogy - that was a wonderful way to put it!

[Tehya Faye]

I dunno, it kinda boils down to "if you aren't against updating art you're not a true and dedicated fan" which is an awful statement. =/

 

Seriously, look at this:

 

Another thing is that the people silly enough to become attached to their sprites (and not 'because they're rares' but because they love the sprites/lineages/history) and to care about the history of the site are obviously among those most attached to the site itself,

 

It implies that those for changes aren't just as attached to the site as those against changes.

Edited September 30, 2015 by Tehya Faye

[Odeen]

Captain America can love his country and still recognize its flaws and desire to improve it. I wanna be Captain America.

[AGYK]

@Syphoneira: assuming technically possible to choose an option to see the old sprites but not the new ones (maybe with a different library of images) and that TJ would agree, would that be acceptable? Obviously would be all or nothing: old Whiptail, old Silver etc.

It is technically possible to switch back the sprites. It would be all or nothing, a global sprite replacement. And I have no idea what TJ would say about it. (Presumably nothing, since it should fall under custom styling of the site, and doesn't give anyone an advantage in play - I don't believe it's against the ToS.)

[Stormcaller]

I dunno, it kinda boils down to "if you aren't against updating art you're not a true and dedicated fan" which is an awful statement. =/

 

No, you're missing the point of her whole post, Tehya Faye. That's just one line out of many and taken out of context, it's just not right.

 

The art that exists now is what it is. It's loved by many of us here. It can be fat or awkward, but most people accept it for what it is: pictures of imaginary creatures. They are dragons, not real sentient beings at all. They are what they look like and that's been fine to this point, why not continue from here and make the new ones look like whatever you believe "updated" means?

[pederino]

No, you're missing the point of her whole post, Tehya Faye. That's just one line out of many and taken out of context, it's just not right.

 

The art that exists now is what it is. It's loved by many of us here. It can be fat or awkward, but most people accept it for what it is: pictures of imaginary creatures. They are dragons, not real sentient beings at all. They are what they look like and that's been fine to this point, why not continue from here and make the new ones look like whatever you believe "updated" means?

I dont think is entirely taken out of context, but in any case the same can be said in favour of updating: because we love this that much we will go and make it better.

[Tehya Faye]

Why should TJ have to keep the sprites he clearly doesn't think holds up to the current standards just the way they are to avoid upsetting some of the users? Not everyone will like things that happen, but that doesn't mean that those things shouldn't happen. I'm excited to see the Silvers updated to meet the standards of the current cave, and I don't think we should hold art back out of sentimentality. Why keep things the way they are just because that's the way things have been?

[Stormcaller]

I'm excited to see the Silvers updated to meet the standards of the current cave, and I don't think we should hold art back out of sentimentality. Why keep things the way they are just because that's the way things have been?

Please explain what the "current standards" are? This might be something that the art folks know about but the general membership does not.

 

Sorry, I must go to bed now, but I will come back and read your answer tomorrow.