2015-09-27 - Encyclopedia Update (and more)

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Please explain what the "current standards" are? This might be something that the art folks know about but the general membership does not.

 

Sorry, I must go to bed now, but I will come back and read your answer tomorrow.

Look at the sprites released in the past few years (xenowyrms, spirit wards, coppers, undines, desipises) versus those released in the cave's first few years (stones, reds, silvers, dorsals, vines). Obviously there are exceptions--there are some old sprites, like whites, that I like a lot, while there are some new ones, like cessares, that I think could've been more detailed--but in general it's pretty easy to tell that art quality has gone up a lot over the years. That doesn't instantly make the old art bad, of course--I still like the current silvers, reds and vines--but it's worth keeping in mind. Especially for uber rares like the silvers. Having the second rarest dragon you can catch in the cave have very old, wonky art is not something that's bound to impress new players. Heck, I like them and I'm STILL not impressed.

[birdzgoboom]

No, you're missing the point of her whole post, Tehya Faye. That's just one line out of many and taken out of context, it's just not right.

There's truth to Tehya Faye's observation, context or not. I see this kind of stuff in every single fanbase. "The old ones were better!" "Why?" "Because they were the originals/older! The new ones aren't the same!" (<- Pokemon, Fire Emblem, Smash Bros, Final Fantasy, all of those fanbases have those exact same kinds of people and opinions. It's the most obvious in those four to me, but the FE community is smaller than the others...)

 

If someone loves the art, that's fine. But sometimes, people need to take a step back and, whether they like it initially or not, let something happen for the betterment of the whole (or in this case, one could say the betterment of the site).

It reminds me of a quote from Erechtheus, by Praxithea:

"(14) We have children on account of this, so that we

may save the altars of the gods and the fatherland;

the city has one name but many dwell in it. Is it right

for me to destroy all these when it is possible for me

to give one child to die on behalf of all? ... (20) The

ruin of one person's house is of less consequence and

brings less grief than that of the whole city. If there

were a harvest of sons in our house rather than

daughters and a hostile flame were engulfing the city,

would I not have sent my sons into battle, fearing for

their death? ... (30) I hate women who in preference

to the common good, choose for their own children

to live. "

Now, naturally this passage sounds way more dire, since they're talking about human sacrifice (more specifically the sacrifice of their daughter(s)), but I feel like the overall idea of the message should translate to the situation.

 

Please explain what the "current standards" are? This might be something that the art folks know about but the general membership does not.

As for "current standards," one cannot honestly look at the Holly compared to more recent sprites and see them as being on the same level of standards. Literally what are necks and thighs again? There are a whole lot more anatomical and artistic hoops to jump through now compared to back in 2007.

 

 

These two rows are clearly very different from one another.

 

Like I said earlier, nostalgia isn't a bad thing. Respecting older things is a good thing, of course. But that doesn't mean that, just because you respect and admire the old thing, you can never upgrade to a newer thing. If that were the case, I would still be playing the first Kid Icarus on my NES and not the new one on my 3DS, lol.

[Tehya Faye]

Some of my favorite breeds in Dragon Cave are among the older ones. I adore Hellfires and Sunsongs. I'd certainly be a little anxious if I heard that these were going to be updated, but at the same time I realize that there's always room for improvement. I'd keep an open mind and trust that the new versions will be better. I realize that won't always be the case, that there will be occasions where I think the old ones were better (not yet so far, but it's a possibility), but personal disappointment is no reason to try to stand in the way of future changes or to immediately decide that it's a bad thing.

Edited September 30, 2015 by Tehya Faye

[izaixa]

Personally, I agree that the quality of sprites definitely gone up over the years and I definitely like the newer sprites better -- however, newer doesn't always equal better to be honest and for example, if the gold dragon on the first page is the example of the updated gold sprite, I can't say I like it very much and in this case, I think I prefer the older one. I'm relatively new so I'm sorry if I mistook the sprite for something else; I'd love to see an updated version of silvers but I think it's a good idea to keep the current style of the sprites and just make a newer remake rather than introduce a whole new design.

[Tehya Faye]

The gold in TJ's post is the sprite we had before our current ones.

[izaixa]

The gold in TJ's post is the sprite we had before our current ones.

Oh , thank you! Like I said I'm relatively new and I haven't been around for that sprite; but if that's the case, it can be a good example of a sprite update gone right because I definitely like the current one better.

[Dracaena]

Talking about how the new art is so much better than the old art there is something that I don't get. Why is the neck of the male silver driving so many people nuts yet the nobody says anything about the neck of the female gemshard and I don't see much difference...

[Odeen]

Talking about how the new art is so much better than the old art there is something that I don't get.  Why is the neck of the male silver driving so many people nuts yet the nobody says anything about the neck of the female gemshard and I don't see much difference...

You mean like this:

 

 

Wow, so similar!

 

Edit: I mean yes, I did make gemshards in 2013 from a 2" x 3" napkin doodle, so they're honestly pretty bad, but their necks at least are not broken.

Edited September 30, 2015 by Odeen

[Spiteful_Crow]

*sighs at all the sprite arguments and decides to refrain from saying anything more*

 

Moving on, there's a bunch of typos in the Encyclopedia still. I got these from the Falconiforms alone:

 

Falconiformes have strong legs and feet with raptorial claws.

They are an shy breed. It is hard to ge close to them if the wyvern isn’t already familiar.

 

Aren't there any proofreaders out there? I'm almost tempted to volunteer, but I know my typically Leet English Skillz are still lacking in some areas.

[Wahya]

Talking about how the new art is so much better than the old art there is something that I don't get. Why is the neck of the male silver driving so many people nuts yet the nobody says anything about the neck of the female gemshard and I don't see much difference...

The neck of the male Yellow-Crowned is a bit questionable too. Something about the way the head attaches to it makes me cringe.

[Amazon_warrior]

*sighs at all the sprite arguments and decides to refrain from saying anything more*

 

Moving on, there's a bunch of typos in the Encyclopedia still. I got these from the Falconiforms alone:

 

 

 

 

Aren't there any proofreaders out there? I'm almost tempted to volunteer, but I know my typically Leet English Skillz are still lacking in some areas.

Don't even get me started - I'm a professional copy-editor and some of the encyclopedia entries are painful for me to read. I can usually ignore typos and grammar in forum posts because 1) not everyone's a native English speaker and 2) people may have other problems, like dyslexia. But on "official" copy it really makes me wince. I've half a mind to volunteer myself. :/

Edited September 30, 2015 by Amazon_warrior

[Syphoneira]

I dunno, it kinda boils down to "if you aren't against updating art you're not a true and dedicated fan" which is an awful statement. =/

 

Seriously, look at this:

 

 

 

It implies that those for changes aren't just as attached to the site as those against changes.

 

 

 

 

Hi, Tehya Faye!

 

 

If you actually take another look at the quote to which you refer:

 

... Another thing is that the people silly enough to become attached to their sprites (and not 'because they're rares' but because they love the sprites/lineages/history) and to care about the history of the site are obviously among those most attached to the site itself ...

 

you'll notice that I actually said that those with an emotional attachment to their sprites were *among those* most attached to the site itself, not exclusively so.

 

After all, everyone who's been here a certain length of time has stuck out lengthy periods where their scrolls weren't accessible, where the Cave was nearly always Blocked, whenever there were more than a few lines of eggs in the AP, where the AP was a Black/Green Wall of bred non-Alt eggs Blocking the Cave as well, where breeding was shut down, where there were very few dragon sprites and almost no New Releases, where there was such extreme lag as to shut the Cave down again, where there was data and some dragon loss - there has to have been a very strong attachment to something to make people stick all of those sorts of things out.

 

A good deal of that post was an attempt at an explanation of exactly why various people may not want sprites which they treasure, and to which they are emotionally attached exactly as they are, sprites, history, associations and all, altered into something else to which they have no emotional attachment; for them this changed sprite (as with lineages involving them) is a loss and an invasion into their scroll beyond their control, something which I evidently failed to explain well enough to those not understanding this, together with the differences in each individual's taste which means that one person's beauty may be another person's ICK!

 

However this division in tastes then seemingly automatically comes down to, rather than creating an alternative or alternatives which might satisfy those not caring much for the Silvers, depriving everyone of the older sprites many love and which signify to many DC's history and individuality in order to serve a limited range of tastes - I'm questioning why, because it seems about time someone did, now that the last icons of DC are being, for many, altered into something else.

 

If DC caters only to certain and progressively more limited tastes, with all of the dragons being of a similar style, people with different tastes will likely become disinterested; variety is the spice of life, as they say and DC has previously appealed to a great variety of people of all ages and all around the world in part because of this.

 

Presumably it wouldn't harm anyone if the current Silvers were kept and downgraded in rarity while a new sprite was Released as a replacement rare and the new Hollies Released as a separate variation this Christmas; I certainly don't expect this to happen, but I do wonder why it's apparently never been considered.

 

Where numerous people are suffering a loss to provide those with different tastes with what they want, one would expect less painful alternatives to be also on the table.

 

 

 

Edit: bringing up a few other quotes, evidently missed:

 

'... Some of us don't value particular sprites for the sake of rarity or because they're anatomically perfect; many people simply collect dragons according to what they like, what they can do with them and how they make them feel, which is also what people tend to do with RL art acquisition. What speaks to one person may leave another cold; what's an essential icon to one may be merely an interchangeable decoration to another, or something they wouldn't have in their house. I d feel that we ought to be celebrating, or at least tolerating, and attempting to accommodate our differences, rather than attempting to force everyone's tastes into the same mold - something which is never going to happen. Taste in style/art - and taste in general - is deeply personal and highly individual, as are personal attachments to objects we value on an emotional level.

 

One other point: when first looking through my scroll, upon coming back to DC after 7 months without internet, being rather ill and groggy, I noticed my Whiptails and dozily wondered why I'd ever liked them so much, having at the time forgotten about the minor changes which I had actually been here for, although as I recall, they didn't seem much changed at the time, just... slightly different. Like the SunRises, Summer and Autumn Seasonals and others I'd loved prior to their change, they are simply no longer to my personal taste.

 

Some people will like various alterations, others won't - and, importantly, ANY of the sprites will potentially also appear very differently, especially with regard to colour, on different monitors, although I've also noticed sprites somehow looking quite different as well, doubtless due to different colouration/accents altering the actual appearance. A sprite which looks good on one system may look not-so-hot on another, this also being why the soft, burnished old-silvery glow of the Silvers, (which I found to be also different and somewhat less beautiful a couple of years ago on my then-new computer than it had been on my old ones, each having some variation, as with the downstairs computer and elsewhere, whether better or worse regarding different sprites,) may appear dull and grey-ish on some monitors. In this most recent Release, people have been referring to the Silver Lunar Heralds as 'Whites', because this is how they appear on their systems. The same people may see different things on different monitors, which increases the virtual impossibility of satisfying everyone with any amount of change.

 

 

 

Since we all have different tastes and DC is played by different people of all ages all over the world, quite frankly, it seems counter-productive to urge that a conformity of style suiting some players over others be applied to all sprites, regardless of all else.

 

As individuals, what we care about may not depend upon standard and changing fashions or perfection, and, to mangle the old cliche, we may not know art, but we DO know what we like and it matters to us. Especially when it comes down to losing what we already have and care about.'

 

 

 

Edit for a VERY late addition which will likely not be seen, lol:

 

Tehya Faye:

 

"Fair enough. Though your "less painful" alternative is my excruciatingly painful. When I caught my Silvers they were rare. I did not catch them solely because they were rare, but they still represent hours of hunting I put into the cave. Logging in to discover that the dragon I put a lot of time and effort into getting is now common/uncommon would be horrifying. It means that the time I spent was wasted. I shouldn't have bothered trying so hard to get my Silvers; I could have devoted my time into other activities and picked them up later with ease. Not only that, but now I have to hunt the new Silvers down all over again, competing with every single user for who knows how long to reach my quota again.

 

I know that you are attached to the sprites and don't want to see them be lost, but your proposed option would represent a loss of my time and the time others spent catching these hard to acquire dragons. That time is gone. I don't get to take screenshots of it to look at later. I can't look fondly back on those memories. I can't even really appreciate those old sprites that you want to be saved because they now represent a poor choice that wasted hours of my life. How can that be the nicer solution?"

 

 

 

To which I'd like to mention that, similarly to others, I spent mostly fruitless months (I think close-ish to a year, perhaps?) of a LOT of endless night hours hunting on my antique computer for my few-of-each early CB metals, (the others being treasured gifts, since I almost never see them anymore, due to having slower Refreshes than some others, so that while more hunting was involved prior to the Gold change, even the so-called 'floods of metals' I heard about here and there failed to reach me,) only to lose my beloved heraldic Golds and my then-favorite above all else Gold/White lineages, including Dorkfaces, and am now faced with the loss of my beloved historical Silvers, along with more lineages typically involving Holidays into which a great deal of hope and many, often-fruitless attempts have been poured AND the prospect of losing my Holly sprites along with, among others, the long-dreamt-of Holly and White even-gen lineages I finally obtained in recent years, once we were allowed to collect bred Holidays.

 

Isn't the time and effort expended over the years by the rest of us who love the sprites and associations as is - as well as the loss of the sprites and lineages themselves - at least equal to that you've put into catching Silvers which I and others with slower Refreshes no longer even see?

 

 

 

And a little more edit: if you catch a dragon, as you say, not because it's rare but because you want the dragons, and they were hard to catch at the time, logically, why would being able to catch them more easily at a later date mean that your (and everyone else's) time catching them as rares represented a waste of time?

 

Would you honestly prefer that Pyralspites never revert to being uncommons, as intended, rather than user-demand-created virtually extinct in the fabulous and most desirable hot-pinkest of the cases, and were you disappointed by the also utterly uniquely coloured and elegant Spessies making a bit of a comeback during recent Releases? That Coppers and Blusang can now be sometimes seen and caught by people with average connections?

 

Should 'rare' be something that the bulk of members with average or slower connection/Refresh speeds almost never even see, and would a category shift making these more generally accessible (yeah, I know, not gonna happen, lol,) really be such a bad thing for you personally?

Edited October 2, 2015 by Syphoneira

[Esmeia]

Love the updated encylopedia entries! Nice to know all my dragon clicking paid off and I already had them all filled up when I checked. :'D

 

And I'm, honestly, SUPER EXCITED about updated sprites! Bring it on. <3

[Clya]

*is chanting*

Bring the updates

Bring the updates

I wanna see the sprites

I wanna see the sprites

Must see the Horses

Must see the Nillias

Bring the updates!

 

*whispers*

Please?

[Ruby Eyes]

I like the current Silvers as they are. I hope the new ones will be just as pretty!

[Tehya Faye]

Where numerous people are suffering a loss to provide those with different tastes with what they want, one would expect less painful alternatives to be also on the table.

Fair enough. Though your "less painful" alternative is my excruciatingly painful. When I caught my Silvers they were rare. I did not catch them solely because they were rare, but they still represent hours of hunting I put into the cave. Logging in to discover that the dragon I put a lot of time and effort into getting is now common/uncommon would be horrifying. It means that the time I spent was wasted. I shouldn't have bothered trying so hard to get my Silvers; I could have devoted my time into other activities and picked them up later with ease. Not only that, but now I have to hunt the new Silvers down all over again, competing with every single user for who knows how long to reach my quota again.

 

I know that you are attached to the sprites and don't want to see them be lost, but your proposed option would represent a loss of my time and the time others spent catching these hard to acquire dragons. That time is gone. I don't get to take screenshots of it to look at later. I can't look fondly back on those memories. I can't even really appreciate those old sprites that you want to be saved because they now represent a poor choice that wasted hours of my life. How can that be the nicer solution?

[Cleo4]

What a happy surprise!

Thank you TJ

[Esko]

Change is a part of life.

This site always changes.

This was bound to happen at some point, especially since the spriter wanted them redone.

This protest is probably not changing TJs mind.

The spriters probably predicted this, knowing the userbase, and they know better. They'll probably do it best to their abilities, and get the sprite as close as they can.

 

It's interesting to see that the Horses and Nillas get little attention compared to the uproar about Silvers. I even think the protest against the Holly tweaks has died down some. Seriously. Change was bound to happen. The most we can do is sit down and enjoy the sprites made for us

Edited September 30, 2015 by Esko_the_Wolf

[zaverxi]

Make the silvers as they are right now common/uncommon, and the new sprites the rares?

 

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!

 

That would make the new ones impossible to get. The new silvers would become urban legends, and the ones we have now would become all but worthless EXCEPT to those feeling nostalgic. And like Tehya said, it would negate all the hard work we put into collecting them in the first place. You know how many rares I've traded for CB silvers because I can't catch any myself?

 

And hate to break it to you, but the number of people that are mentioning this so-called 'nostalgia' are not the majority.

 

This would simply be bad business for TJ. Like I've said before, I've BEEN playing for years and years and I was actually disappointed when sprites were updated and silvers weren't on the list.

 

 

As for dimorphism, I think all non-holiday breedable dragons need dimorphism. Whether we'll actually get it since it's per each individual spriter and TJ, who knows.

 

I want to see the male horse, because I use male horses in quite a few lineages.

 

I bet it's a 'rearing stallion' pose.

Edited September 30, 2015 by zaverxi

[Nectaris]

Another thing regarding the idea of using the new silvers as a new breed.

 

The whole thing is under the assumption that they will be like the golds and new pinks, a highly different dragon. What if it is actually just an updated look? Meaning the dragon keeps the same design, with just new shading and a few tweaks to fix the anatomy? Is that really worth a new dragon? A dragon that looks for the most part just like the old? I have a feeling more people would be unhappy having to hunt for a super-rares that are just like the uncommon/common versions, just newer, than there would be people mad that there was a change.

 

I will also point out that people can still be attached to sprites and still want the silver sprites changed. A person could latch on to a different sprite you know, and just not have formed a great attachment to the silvers. Mine is the waters, they are old dragons, but remain as one of my favorites.

Edited September 30, 2015 by Nectaris

[SheridanCharon]

Speaking as a relatively new user - not even a year yet - I have to say Silvers are one of my favourite dragons.

But even I have to admit, compared to some of the newest sprites, they do look a bit...dated. So I'm looking tentatively forward to the changes.

[NotBambi]

I hate disagreeing with Syphoneira but, in this case, I do.

While I do not hunt for Silvers, I spend hours, often between 4 and 6 hours, in the biomes, hunting for rares. That makes Tehya's and zaverxi's point of view very easy to understand for me.

By the way, not only I do not hunt for Silvers. I would not part with a Gold to get two, even three, Silvers. I prefer to gift it. Because, IMHO, the Silver sprite isn't "up to nowadays standards" enough to be a rare.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Some of my favorite breeds in Dragon Cave are among the older ones. I adore Hellfires and Sunsongs. I'd certainly be a little anxious if I heard that these were going to be updated, but at the same time I realize that there's always room for improvement. I'd keep an open mind and trust that the new versions will be better. I realize that won't always be the case, that there will be occasions where I think the old ones were better (not yet so far, but it's a possibility), but personal disappointment is no reason to try to stand in the way of future changes or to immediately decide that it's a bad thing.

I doubt hellfires and sunsongs would ever be updated (good thing, too, sunsongs are my favorite dragon ). Just look at them--they are very detailed and well done. Actually, plenty of older sprites are. But a lot of the ones that were put in after the fog as emergency sprite replacements were done while DC was operating on lower color limits and less popularity than it is today, so things got in that are visibly full of issues (like reds and stones). A few others snuck in later (like dorsals) that could use some help, but we probably don't need to be paranoid about EVERY old sprite being updated. It doesn't take a particularly discerning eye to see that some are in much rougher shape than others, and the two breeds you mentioned are certainly on the higher quality side of the spectrum.

Edited September 30, 2015 by angelicdragonpuppy

[DragonLady86]

Ok, I keep seeing the idea to keep the current silvers as they are and only make the new ones change. Heck no! That is what happened to the pinks. And it still causes drama off and on again because "why can't new players get the old ones?" DO NOT WANT. (side note: the bright pinks are still one of my all time favorite sprites, but I would still have rather lost them then have the constant fighting)

 

And putting the new ones in cave but also keeping the old ones. hmm... so same egg, same dragon, same description, two different possible sprites with possibly two different rarities. That sounds like an even bigger nightmare. At least with blacks and vines only the bred ones have the chance to pop up rare/different. Do you really want a rare/common that works like Nebulas? "Yay after countless hours I got my first CB rare. Go me. Then it hatches into the other version. /sadness"

 

Change happens. and given how many super-commons look better than the current Silvers... yeah they need a makeover.

[MIGOR]

Thank you. Superb news