2015-09-27 - Encyclopedia Update (and more)

[kerrikins]

Saying you don't like the updates is one thing. Arguing with the people who do is another.

Shouldn't the same be said in reverse, then, especially since the new sprites aren't even out yet? For all some people here know, they could end up hating the updates even though they're excited for them. Nobody knows one way or the other, so I don't see why being excited is okay but being wary isn't. I've actually seen more people arguing with those who are wary than vice versa.

 

I'm neutral on the idea of sprite updates (I loved the golds, for example) but I feel frustrated on behalf of the people who are wary or unhappy that they are basically being told to be quiet by a few commenters on here. Some comments (not yours, Fiona, but in general) have come across as downright condescending and dismissive and it's disappointing to see.

Edited September 30, 2015 by kerrikins

[Thuban]

Maybe such an Encyclopedia section would help those struggling with the updated sprites?

... you just gave me some awesome ideas to play with. Thanks.

 

 

I know I would enjoy seeing old "established"[1] sprites in the encyclopedia. It can unlock once all entries have been unlocked for the breed. If there was a need for some history behind the change, I'm sure a small "history" section could be added, or worked into the information sections.

 

 

[1] Established in this case meaning sprites that had/have been around long enough to be worked into various lineage projects. Any changes made within say that first week (until first adult is able to breed that isn't TJ's) would not be added into the list, unless artist was fine with it.

[Clya]

And really Marie, I think Reds are in desperate need of having all four feet planted on the ground. Wouldn't you think they'd be tired by now of standing on an invisible hill?

I love the storybook red dragon look (they seem to resemble those evil red dragons in stories and such)

 

But an anatomy tweak would look nice as long as they keep the same look. Like I'm hoping what will happen with the Silvers

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Although updates like that are certainly less invasive than full sprite redos, they still bug me for some breeds personally, the GoN being one of them. I loved the old wings - they had a depth and mystery to them that really completed the look. The new ones just don't do anything for me. I actually don't like them as much because of it, and for me (again, personally) having mine doesn't mean as much to me now.

 

Someone brought up before that the old Pokemon sprites aren't as good as the new ones, but they are still the same Pokemon. For me, I actually considered getting the original Horsea sprite from Red/Blue tattooed on me, because I fell in love with that quirky little piece of art as a child. The new Horsea sprites are shinier, more detailed, and good in their own way, but I will ALWAYS see them as the old ones in my mind, and would choose to get that old style permanently put on my skin. I would never take the new sprites away from people, because I know they are loved and appreciated too, but I want the choice to see what I want to see. Me getting the old Horsea tattooed allows me to see what I want without taking it from others (I haven't actually gotten the tat yet - it's just an idea I've been throwing around for a while), and vice versa. So for me, it's kind of like that. It's the meaning as well as the art. New and improved isn't always better, and tried and true isn't always either; but when it comes to art, it's all in the eyes of the beholder.

Ughhh why did you have to remind me? I miss the old GoNs too D'X

 

On the other hand, the whiptail and purple updates were great. So mileage will vary.

[NotBambi]

Not a bad idea, though I think certain sprites that were updated ought not to be there. For example, when shadow walkers were released there were some... issues that I hadn't caught and Nakase hadn't had a chance to address. The sprites were updated within 24 hours. The "old" sprites would not belong there. (I wish they weren't on the wiki either but be allowed to vanish into the ether, but that's a separate issue)

 

Maybe such an Encyclopedia section would help those struggling with the updated sprites?

I was thinking that the "historic" sprite (if it exists, and personally I would not include 24-hours existence sprites : could be included as a section relative to the breed. But also an area where they all can be seen together. Maybe linking back to the breed.

[AGYK]

I was thinking that the "historic" sprite (if it exists, and personally I would not include 24-hours existence sprites : could be included as a section relative to the breed. But also an area where they all can be seen together. Maybe linking back to the breed.

I would rather not see the historic sprites on the breed page; I feel like some people are likely to get confused about why they can't get the "other" sprites. I'd wholeheartedly support a "museum" section where all the old sprites are listed and link back to the breed, though!

[Wahya]

Ughhh why did you have to remind me? I miss the old GoNs too D'X

 

On the other hand, the whiptail and purple updates were great. So mileage will vary.

Sorry about that It's just a personal example that I felt I could use. Honestly, with the new GoN sprites, they could disappear off of my scroll today and I really wouldn't miss them. They aren't bad, I just don't care for them. And I'm sure that's what will happen to the Silvers for me. Which is why I wish for the option to have a scroll side choice of what we see - that way, everyone can be happy. People who want and like the new sprite won't be hindered, and those who don't want or like the new sprite won't be either.

 

I am certainly well aware this is already decided and up to TJ and the spriters to choose regardless, but that doesn't make me any less passionate about what's happening in a site I used to love, and have and continue to dedicate time to. (Not directed at you specifically Angelic, just the thread in general).

Edited September 30, 2015 by Wahya

[NotBambi]

I would rather not see the historic sprites on the breed page; I feel like some people are likely to get confused about why they can't get the "other" sprites. I'd wholeheartedly support a "museum" section where all the old sprites are listed and link back to the breed, though!

I'm too lazy to start/maintain a Suggestion thread about the "Museum" area but if someone else would, please feel free to run with the idea

[Vhale]

A museum would be nice, though an option to use legacy sprites would be better. I assume due to data, time, etc that's never going to happen. DC is small and not staffed by a team or anything. So it's kinda all or nothing.

[MetalheadStevie]

To be honest, I don't understand why everyone is so up in arms over the Silver change. There's still tons of other sprites being kept as-is to still love.

It's just that the silvers do look very "cheap" (not really cheap, it's just for lack of a better word) for being one of the most rare. I love having the rares look exciting and shiny and powerful compared to the more common dragons, I think it will be a good change.

 

He never said the value of them will drop or it'll be an entirely new dragon, it's just a bit of an upgrade. Not a huge deal, you know? And who knows, maybe you'll like them more. It's kind of silly to get so bent out of shape when you don't even know what they'll look like yet. And there's always the DC Wiki to look back on what they previously looked like.

 

I love the Silvers, but I can't wait to see the change. Personally I think they look like rats now. Not in a bad way like "UGH RATS" (rats are cute!) but they just don't look like shiny, beautiful, awe-striking silver dragons. They literally do look like little furry grey rats to me.

 

I mean obviously everyone's entitled to their opinions, but I just think it's not really as much of a big deal as it's being made out to be.

Edited September 30, 2015 by MetalheadStevie

[Fuzzbucket]

Shouldn't the same be said in reverse, then, especially since the new sprites aren't even out yet? For all some people here know, they could end up hating the updates even though they're excited for them. Nobody knows one way or the other, so I don't see why being excited is okay but being wary isn't. I've actually seen more people arguing with those who are wary than vice versa.

 

I'm neutral on the idea of sprite updates (I loved the golds, for example) but I feel frustrated on behalf of the people who are wary or unhappy that they are basically being told to be quiet by a few commenters on here. Some comments (not yours, Fiona, but in general) have come across as downright condescending and dismissive and it's disappointing to see.

I totally agree here. I shall be fascinated to see if some of the people who are saying New is Good are as enthusiastic when they see the sprites. Because - like it or not - we DO get attached to what we have (see under The Velveteen Rabbit.)

 

And I am concerned for some of my lineages. Like many others. That isn't being averse to change as such, just being averse to someone tinkering with MY WORK (because while the sprites are the work of the artists, we then build patterns with them which can be ruined by a sprite change.)

 

@ MetalheadStevie - it isn't the rarity that is the issue; it's the actual appearance of lineages when a sprite is changed. As someone said further up - the look of their lineage was actually spoiled by the change to whiptails - a change I did actually like... and many have said the same about sunsets. - a tiny change I hadn't even noticed till they pointed to their lineages.

Edited September 30, 2015 by fuzzbucket

[MetalheadStevie]

Forgive me cause I'm new (and pretty inactive) to the community so I don't understand the whole lineages thing, I just collect dragons and don't do the lineage thing.

 

How was the look spoiled by minor changes like that? What's the whole thing with how a lineage looks?

[Fuzzbucket]

Forgive me cause I'm new (and pretty inactive) to the community so I don't understand the whole lineages thing, I just collect dragons and don't do the lineage thing.

 

How was the look spoiled by minor changes like that? What's the whole thing with how a lineage looks?

I don't know why that member didn't like her lineage after the whippie change. I do know that a lineage like this

 

https://dragcave.net/lineage/Zi8Sm

 

(see how the female giggles at the daft show-off male) would be spoiled if the angles were changed.

 

What is the big thing with lineages ? well, when you design one to look beautiful with the sprites you have - and then they are changed - the look of it all changes. Many of us choose with great care what dragons will look good together - there are threads and threads discussing this. A sprite change can completely change the look of it. And the look is why we make them.

 

I would never have made this

 

https://dragcave.net/lineage/AkZW3

 

if we only had the original colours of nebulae, for instance. And this

 

https://dragcave.net/lineage/46AWg

 

took me FOREVER and a lot of begging. I don't want the look of it changed. And with this I like the way they look at each other

 

https://dragcave.net/lineage/COGNb

 

Sure some people don;t build lineages. But some of us do, and go to a lot of trouble to have them look lovely.

 

 

[Panthersclaw]

Yay new updates. I can't wait to see the new Halloween dragon Thanks TJ

[Tehya Faye]

I totally agree here. I shall be fascinated to see if some of the people who are saying New is Good are as enthusiastic when they see the sprites. Because - like it or not - we DO get attached to what we have (see under The Velveteen Rabbit.)

See, I'm not saying that New is Good. I'm just a bit frustrated that some posters seem to be trying to shut down this change and/or discourage TJ from making future changes because they're concerned that they might not like the new sprites. TJ is doing what he thinks is best for the cave, and while the changes will never appeal to everyone he has to think about what works best for the majority. If I don't happen to fit into that majority then so be it.

[Syphoneira]

Actually, in reference to some earlier comments, I don't think anyone's been arguing against it in the hope of avoiding the change, as it looks pretty hopeless.

 

I think some of us are trying to encourage thought about some of the assumptions being made, trying to encourage a potential for outside-the-box thinking in some areas in future, and all of us trying to make our perspective understandable to those who don't happen to understand it in this instance.

 

In example, it's great when TJ hops onto your scroll to deposit that 2nd gen Thuwed from the dragons he so kindly breeds for the members making it on the lists - but if he were to randomly and willy-nilly substitute Thuweds for all of everyone's CB Prizes, it probably wouldn't go over well, as most owners would likely value the CB Prizes over any possible replacement. Then, it would feel as though their scrolls had been invaded and that they were utterly vulnerable to outside circumstance, much as in RL in an insecure home which has already been broken into to have their most valued possessions removed.

 

Value is often subjective, as is taste in art. Even those of us who are not artistic can tell how much difference in effect a relatively minor change in even a few lines or shading can make in altering the whole feel of a portrayed subject. If you happen to like the new feel, super - but even if you like it, even if it may be more beautiful by your own standards but it's altered the feel of a much-loved piece, it may be ruined for you, because it's no longer what you loved.

 

Anyone who's worn a stylized type of make-up knows what happens if your eyeliner or blush isn't quite right, altering the appearance of your whole face by even subtly emphasizing the wrong areas or creating the wrong shape to your eyes - even if it looks OK overall and you still get complements from total strangers, it just doesn't work for the effect you were aiming at. To some of us, the dragons on our scrolls may be very nearly as personal as our faces. Silly, perhaps, but a lot of us lead insecure lives and we have tended to think of/hope for our DC time as being an escape from RL and our effectively immortal dragons and their also treasured lineages as being effectively immortal and not subject to change.

 

There has been a fair bit of change in recent years but when it involves what a lot of us think of as being iconic DC historical dragons such as the metals and Hollies, the added aspect of loss makes alterations all the more devastating to those caring about such things. And even if we can't do anything about that, we would at least like this recognized, rather than buried under comments from those happy and excited about it, because if we don't point out that this is not something universally celebrated amongst the membership, then it will continue to be dismissed along with our feelings as a minor issue, rather than one which many are reluctant to post about for fear of being denigrated as a worthless whiner.

 

 

Edit: misplaced a word; needz moar cofffffeeeee!

Edited September 30, 2015 by Syphoneira

[cyradis4]

See, I'm not saying that New is Good. I'm just a bit frustrated that some posters seem to be trying to shut down this change and/or discourage TJ from making future changes because they're concerned that they might not like the new sprites. TJ is doing what he thinks is best for the cave, and while the changes will never appeal to everyone he has to think about what works best for the majority. If I don't happen to fit into that majority then so be it.

You should have seen the Suggestions thread about updating Silvers. It was.... pretty special!

 

 

MetalheadStevie:

Here's another lineage that's effect would be changed with just a minor alteration in pose, but color wise wouldn't be too affected:

http://dragcave.net/lineage/Z6kkh

The male is tickling the female.

 

Where as this one wouldn't be affected by a change in pose of any of the sprites, but could be very easily destroyed by a change in color:

http://dragcave.net/lineage/WoQJm

Since the different breeds form an arrow, with a greyscale gradient running from center on out.

 

This lineage, on the other hand, wouldn't loose one bit of its impact with a sprite change, because it wasn't built for the visual reference, but rather as a bad pun (but would be ruined by a breed name change ) :

http://dragcave.net/lineage/yS37J

I work in a power plant. Lightning = Power, hence the Thunder dragons. And Vines are plants, hence the reason I used Vines and Thunders to get "Power" and "Plant" = "Power Plant".

 

 

It'll be interesting to see what other sprite changes happen.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[VixenDra]

Come on TJ, stop all this madness of dreading the unkown, have mercy and just introduce the changes asap

[purplehaze]

@Tawanda001 @purplehaze

Like what you have done here in your comment? I mean, you are saying that the ones that want or are in pro of the updates are arrogant and snarky, would not that count as being snarky? Also arrogance, why would you think you are in the position to call another person or group of persons arrogant?

 

Lets say the truth, both sides are quite snarky and arrogant, when we discuss about something personal, is very difficult not to come to that edge. The difference is when you are respectfully snarky, and unrespectfully snarky. ATM, most of the comments, of both parties and the ones that doesnt care at all about the silvers update, have been very respectful (also snarky and arrogant ), so I think that is not a reason why people would stop commenting, because if it was, this thread would not have commenters at all.

 

Anyway, I have gotten way out of topic, and sorry for that...

I am saying only that certain people on that side of the argument made arrogant and snarky comments. I did not cite specific people, although I could have. I did not call them snarky and arrogant because they like the idea of the updates. Rather I thought their attitude toward the feelings of people on the other side of the argument seemed arrogant because of the way they disparaged those people's feelings.

 

I am not even strongly against the updates -- simply a bit apprehensive until I see the new sprites, because I have not always liked previous updates. My very first post in this thread says as much. But I feel called to defend people who are expressing feelings of loss and sadness here and are being told they shouldn't feel that way. They feel what they feel and should be allowed to express their feelings the same as those who are cheering for full speed ahead!

[Melatte]

For the record, the breeds that have had notes added to the encyclopedia:

Anagallis Dragon

Coastal Waverunner

Dark Green Dragon

Falconiform Wyvern

Flamingo Wyvern

Gold-horned Tangar

Gray Dragon

Green Dragon

Heartseeker Dragon

Holiday Dragon (2012)

Ice Dragon

Lumina Dragon

Olive Dragon

Plated Colossus Dragon

Pyralspite Dragon

Ridgewing Dragon

Royal Crimson Dragon

Turpentine Dragon

Two-Finned Bluna

Water Walker Dragon

Whiptail Dragon

And the following received updates:

Pillow Dragon

Pink Dragon

 

So! Everyone!

Have you found any new content in the encyclopedia that you have found particularly interesting or entertaining? I haven't managed to unlock everything as the encyclopedia has never been on my priority list, but everything I have seen so far has been quite enjoyable. Also, I've seen a few posts regarding some grammar errors, it's amazing how much people notice that I just gloss over.

 

 

 

 

Finally, I'd like to show off a sneak preview of an upcoming redesign of the mobile site, featuring redone navigation and much better organization:

 

I'm really excited about the mobile site redesign. I spend a lot of time on buses or waiting for them, so being able to use DC for entertainment in those times can be really nice. Plus I can keep a better eye on my dragons, so it's nice that the mobile site is getting a little attention. How many of you actively use the mobile site? Do you like the current design? I find it difficult to navigate.

[TCA]

Excuse me while I just hug the Pyralspites and giggle over their entries.

[NotBambi]

Come on TJ, stop all this madness of dreading the unkown, have mercy and just introduce the changes asap

I must subscribe to this. I'm so hoping that will happen this weekend. At least we will know instead of guessing.

 

 

Unfortunately, there were snarky and arrogant comments on both sides. If we are really bothered by those, nothing is stopping us from reporting them, correct?

[Clya]

Unfortunately, there were snarky and arrogant comments on both sides. If we are really bothered by those, nothing is stopping us from reporting them, correct?

I'm not sure to be honest, but there were some things that upset me as well.

 

But oh! The encyclopedia entries galore! Anyone with Pyralspites I can vigorously click on?!

 

Aaaand any clue when we are supposed to be seeing sprite updates?

[Fiona]

Saying you don't like the updates is one thing. Arguing with the people who do is another.

Shouldn't the same be said in reverse, then <SNIP>

Of course it should. I was just replying to someone who was against. We're all allowed to be on either side of the update fence that we like. We're even allowed to be on the fence. Arguing with each other about whether it's ok to be on the other side of the fence is not so ok. People were headed that way.

 

@Ashikara: I found the vine hatchling notes particularly entertaining. Watch your step around them!

[Melatte]

Aaaand any clue when we are supposed to be seeing sprite updates?

I've been wondering this myself. I'm glad we have the time between the announcement and the actual update though. I had a few lineages I would have been sad not to have screenshots of. That said, I've had more than enough time and now I'm just excited for the new sprites! Totally not stalking my Nilias or anything.