Remove GoN Breed Limits

[edwardelricfreak]

Even with the slightly raised chances, GoNs are still HARD to get on top of rare trio dragons. It was hard for people to get both GoNs with the limit of 2, let alone just ONE, unless they were EXTREMELY lucky.

 

Does that NOT make them interesting enough? They're Guardians of Nature that have to be SUMMONED. They breed Avatars when you breed them to other dragons now. Why do they need to have a limit to make them interesting?

 

Again, it's not like they're all too easy to get unless you're extremely lucky. You even said yourself that you haven't really even tried to summon. It's hard. Chances are slim. No one is sure about exact percentages but TJ except for that they go up the more trios you have, but even with lots of trios it's still hard. There are people who've tried, religiously from day one when they first came out, to get one and they still have no GoN to show for it. Hopefully now people will be slightly more lucky, but chances still sound slim.

 

And besides, for quite a few people, it was less of an accomplishment filled with celebration and more of a "FINALLY GEEZ, now THAT irritation is over" when they finally successfully summoned their first GoN from what I've seen. At least now that they can breed something, they're seen as useful and won't just sit and look pretty on scrolls.

 

They don't need limits to be interesting. GoNs have plenty going for them. I don't think "making them interesting" is a good reason for them to have limits.

 

Did holidays become less interesting or less valuable when their limits were raised? No, definitely not from what I can tell. Granted, maybe you can only have two CBs, but GoNs are A LOT harder to get than them, even with raised chances, even if there's a base line 1% chance of summoning one with only one trio. That sounds like plenty of compensation/compromise to me.

[RainDear]

If I ever get my 2nd, since it is going to take at least 3 years of trying-I NEVER want to use the "summon" BSA ever again. I really can't imagine that anyone who has put 3 years into getting just 1 is going to want to continue after they manage to get the second (if they even try to get a second) trying to go for more. That's just my personal opinion.

^^^

 

That's what I said a little over a year ago when this topic first opened, and that's how I still feel.

 

Yes, with reluctance, I am going to try to summon a third and face all that frustration over again.

 

I am excited to breed my GONs for the new Avatars and a little daunted at thinking how long it will take me to get the ones I want. I don't think that being able to breed really makes a difference in whether this breed should be limited. It will take a while for everyone to get the ones they want, but even with the prior limit, everyone eventually would be able to get the Avatars they want. GONs are a special case dragon, and I don't see any reason for changing/removing the limit.

 

 

[danicast]

GONs are a special case dragon, and I don't see any reason for changing/removing the limit.

I agree with this. I don't have any Gon yet but I plan to get more trios to summon my first one and then I plan to breed it. I like to think that this is a very special dragon with limited edition.

Edited May 22, 2014 by danicast

[angelicdragonpuppy]

So just because you wouldn't want more means no one should be able to try for more? That's just silly. You can stop trying for extras whenever you want. Others shouldn't be punished just because some people find summoning too tiring to keep trying.

 

GoNs will be special regardless of if the limit is lifted. They are the only dragon that requires obtaining three other (fairly rare) dragons to get. They are the only summoned dragon. They are the only non-Holiday breed to have ever had breed limits. They have extremely low odds of being obtained and can only be gotten through chance. They aren't about to stop being special any time soon. They might be powerful and rare, and that would make sense for them being hard to get--but that's already accomplished by the low odds of success. They won't suddenly become easy to get and abundant with the limits gone.

 

With Holidays no longer limited, these are the only breed remaining with limits. Limits always leave someone's goals at the door, and in the case of a dragon that can't be traded and can be obtained with the same odds regardless of other's efforts, they really have no need for one.

[danicast]

So just because you wouldn't want more means no one should be able to try for more? That's just silly. You can stop trying for extras whenever you want. Others shouldn't be punished just because some people find summoning too tiring to keep trying.

Each person is entitled to have their own opinion.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Each person is entitled to have their own opinion.

They are, but that doesn't mean those opinions should be implemented. The above logic is like snatching away a bag of chips from a bunch of hungry partygoers because you personally don't want more chips. If you don't want more GoNs, fine, don't summon more--but that's a poor reason to tell others they can't have more.

[kerrikins]

I don't think that they should be lifted, mostly because I've always viewed them as a step above even other rare dragons and so having a hoard of them seems wrong... They're supposed to be hard to find!

[Fuzzbucket]

They are, but that doesn't mean those opinions should be implemented. The above logic is like snatching away a bag of chips from a bunch of hungry partygoers because you personally don't want more chips. If you don't want more GoNs, fine, don't summon more--but that's a poor reason to tell others they can't have more.

No-one's opinion (idea actually) "should" be implemented. Ain't no shoulds here.

[noxlyx]

To the people whose defense is the fact that the Holiday Limits have been upped:

 

Note that we can still only get 2 CB Holidays and that's only if we're lucky enough to be there that year.

 

Also note that upping the Holiday Limits also allowed people to breed more Holiday Dragons and make people more willing to breed Holiday Dragons because now more people are able to pick up those dragons.

 

There was a very good reason why the Holiday Limit was upped. For GoNs, the only reasoning is "because we want more" which is a fair reason itself. But unless there is more to back it up, there's no real reason why we should have more than "x" amount of GoNs.

 

If a compromise means raising it to 5 so that there can be freezing done, that'd be great but that's something for the future since we already have the limit upped to 3.

 

And Kerrikins brings up a good point:

 

I've always viewed them as a step above even other rare dragons and so having a hoard of them seems wrong

 

 

[angelicdragonpuppy]

No-one's opinion (idea actually) "should" be implemented. Ain't no shoulds here.

There are some ideas in the world that should be implemented. Pretty sure human rights are a good thing.

 

Considering some people have been summoning 3+ years with no luck, I still think the idea that GoNs will ever become commonplace is crazy (unless TJ's boost was hugeee). Anyone who has put in enough dedication to get a dozen will have very well deserved them; a dragon keeper of their age has probably seen enough things to befriend quite a few ultra powerful dragons!

 

@Kerrikens: they already ARE hard to find. The difficulty of summoning them will ensure they're always such; the cap isn't needed on top of that.

Edited May 22, 2014 by angelicdragonpuppy

[Guillotine]

There's really no point to the limit now that they're able to breed the avatars. If anything, it just makes it harder for people who don't have GoNs to get the Avatars.

 

The limits don't make sense now that GoNs are capable of being something besides a scroll decoration.

[edwardelricfreak]

To the people whose defense is the fact that the  Holiday Limits have been upped:

 

Note that we can still only get 2 CB Holidays and that's only if we're lucky enough to be there that year.

Yes, and I DID comment on that. Seems you missed it:

Did holidays become less interesting or less valuable when their limits were raised? No, definitely not from what I can tell. Granted, maybe you can only have two CBs, but GoNs are A LOT harder to get than them, even with raised chances, even if there's a base line 1% chance of summoning one with only one trio. That sounds like plenty of compensation/compromise to me.

Yes, holidays had VERY good reason to have limits raised (at least on bred eggs). But GoNs are only ever gotten by a user. Even CB holidays can be traded and released. While the reason to lift limits on GoNs is just so a user can get, potentially, as many as they want, the reason of having limits just seems pointless, as they can't go to anyone else anyway. It would create more Avatar availability in the long run, too.

 

And just because I say that a user would be able to potentially get as many GoNs as possible, and that it will create more Avatars, it HARDLY means they'll be SUPER COMMON. Some of the posts here suggest that GoNs will be absolutely everywhere and users will hoard them, which is nonsense because they're hard to get. Many probably won't go beyond just having the one when they finally summon it, but why not just let a user get as many as possible?

 

 

Yes, GoNs are special and meant for us, thus the no trading/abandoning/releasing. ADP actually brought up a good point:

So just because you wouldn't want more means no one should be able to try for more? That's just silly. You can stop trying for extras whenever you want. Others shouldn't be punished just because some people find summoning too tiring to keep trying.

 

GoNs will be special regardless of if the limit is lifted. They are the only dragon that requires obtaining three other (fairly rare) dragons to get. They are the only summoned dragon. They are the only non-Holiday breed to have ever had breed limits. They have extremely low odds of being obtained and can only be gotten through chance. They aren't about to stop being special any time soon. They might be powerful and rare, and that would make sense for them being hard to get--but that's already accomplished by the low odds of success. They won't suddenly become easy to get and abundant with the limits gone.

 

With Holidays no longer limited, these are the only breed remaining with limits. Limits always leave someone's goals at the door, and in the case of a dragon that can't be traded and can be obtained with the same odds regardless of other's efforts, they really have no need for one.

[Sir Barton]

Just from an outsider's prospective looking in, the "because I should be able to have as many as I want" is just as invalid a reason for raising the limits as "because they are meant to be special" is for keeping them in place.

 

I don't care either way, but I have yet to actually see a good argument for raising the limit. Yes, they breed three unique dragons now and if you want unrelated pairs, you are going to have to trade with others to reach your goals since you are limited to three GONs. That's called a community effort, and is generally seen as a good thing, so the limit actually does have its own sort of value. Granted, that value is very much the same as the original idea behind the holiday limit, but since the avatars are unlikely to breed multiple eggs that flood the AP, the fault in the holiday limit is avoid in the GON limit.

 

Again, I really don't care either way, but at this moment I see more value in retaining the limit.

[Princess_Pinkie]

tbh this awful trade market doesn't need anything MORE common. there's no reason to remove the limit.

[RainDear]

So just because you wouldn't want more means no one should be able to try for more? That's just silly. You can stop trying for extras whenever you want. Others shouldn't be punished just because some people find summoning too tiring to keep trying.

 

GoNs will be special regardless of if the limit is lifted. They are the only dragon that requires obtaining three other (fairly rare) dragons to get. They are the only summoned dragon. They are the only non-Holiday breed to have ever had breed limits. They have extremely low odds of being obtained and can only be gotten through chance. They aren't about to stop being special any time soon. They might be powerful and rare, and that would make sense for them being hard to get--but that's already accomplished by the low odds of success. They won't suddenly become easy to get and abundant with the limits gone.

 

With Holidays no longer limited, these are the only breed remaining with limits. Limits always leave someone's goals at the door, and in the case of a dragon that can't be traded and can be obtained with the same odds regardless of other's efforts, they really have no need for one.

The following is my opinion, just my opinion. I do not speak for anyone else.

 

This has nothing to do with depriving anyone of anything. Everyone gets to have 3 however long it may take or whether they decide to continue trying until they get all 3. Everyone will get the opportunity to get as many Avatars as they want. I don't feel that limits need to be removed. That is how I feel, and I have a right to feel that way.

[danicast]

The following is my opinion, just my opinion. I do not speak for anyone else.

 

This has nothing to do with depriving anyone of anything. Everyone gets to have 3 however long it may take or whether they decide to continue trying until they get all 3. Everyone will get the opportunity to get as many Avatars as they want. I don't feel that limits need to be removed. That is how I feel, and I have a right to feel that way.

I feel the same way. It's nice to have a special dragon.

[Fuzzbucket]

Just from an outsider's perspective looking in, the "because I should be able to have as many as I want" is just as invalid a reason for raising the limits as "because they are meant to be special" is for keeping them in place.

 

I don't care either way, but I have yet to actually see a good argument for raising the limit. Yes, they breed three unique dragons now and if you want unrelated pairs, you are going to have to trade with others to reach your goals since you are limited to three GONs. That's called a community effort, and is generally seen as a good thing, so the limit actually does have its own sort of value. Granted, that value is very much the same as the original idea behind the holiday limit, but since the avatars are unlikely to breed multiple eggs that flood the AP, the fault in the holiday limit is avoid in the GON limit.

 

Again, I really don't care either way, but at this moment I see more value in retaining the limit.

As do I - and I don't care that much whether or not, either. They won't be breeding true, so we can all trade for the avatar dragons. And I HOPE people don't start demanding silly "prices". (Me I'll settle for green/gold nebbie checkers )

[Aniusia483]

first of all I'm really tired of seeing the same silly 'reasons' against changing/removing the limit and purebreeding of GoNs. And people having to reply them over and over again with basically the same answers...

 

Removing/reducing a limit won't result in hunderds of GoNs per scrool simply becuase of the low success ratio of summonig. If sb would ever obtain more than 10 GoNs that person would be extremelly lucky and there will always be just few such people. In addition to, they can't be traded or abandoned. The End.

Stop repeating this 'rarity in danger' nonsense, please.

 

 

My focus will be on purebreeding though. Because it needs it more.

 

as for purebreeding(and limits as well) - Let's maybe not exclude some player's scroll goals like if the would anyhow affect you actually, shall we?

 

** as contrarguments against purebreeding you give mainly those:

 

*** this would mean higher breeding ratio than summoning ratio and as a result a preference of breeding over summoning - WRONG! This doesn't have to be so if taken care of properly.

- Maybe the following could be a sollution which wouldn't affect anything besides lineages of the owners' GoNs:

If purebreeding ratio was merged with the summoning ratio this would make no technical difference between summoning and breeding besides one's individual scroll goal.

->What I'd suggest would be lowering the purebreeding ratio by half or more in comparison to summon (if summon is let's say 5%, breeding could be 2,5% or 2%) OR, to make the GoN purebreeding unique itself,: the breeding cooldown for purebreeding should be rised to 2 weeks AND waste summoning cooldown as well, so introducing purebreeding wouldn't rise a chance to get a GoN in any possible way. (BTW I need purebreeding myself but I'd highly prefer the above over no possibility to purebreed GoNs, so please don't assume I want to make it more difficult because I'm a jerk:P)

More details: ONE pair of GoNs can have a purebreed attempt at a time; After a purebreeding attempt the normal breeding cooldown still could say 7days so one could breed their GoN for an avatar then BUT all GoNs one has would be unavailable on the mates list untill 2 weeks cooldown pass. Of course, as I said, the cooldown of purebreeding and summoning should be counted as one to prevent a higher chance to get another GoN. I'm sure this is fair enough.

 

*** some of you say they're gods while TJ stated himself they're not;

- So forget this contrargument. Besides, look at Greek mythology, gods do breed with gods there. So even if GoNs were gods, it's not a factor against purebreeding.

 

*** you think this would make them not unique

- You say? Let me give examples of what makes them unique and would stay if they could purebreed:

+Just the fact they CAN be summoned makes them unique,

+their untradeability while the ratio of obtaining them is very low,

+not being catchable,

+their ability to breed with all(not just one per hybrid breed in opposite to other hybrid breeds in the entire game) lesser breeds and priduce special new species(avatars),

+being able to produce more than one hybrid breed...

+and anything else I forgot to mention.

+And if the breeding cooldown for purebreeding would be rised to 2 weeks, like I suggested above, this would make their purebreeding unique itself hence all other dragons breeding(including purebreeding) cooldown is 1 week.

 

Most of all, it wouldn't affect players who are against purebreeding. Because GoNs cannot be transfered to another user in ANY way. All GoNs stay on their motherscrolls. Or are released/killed. You personally have no harm if sb purebreeds the forever his/her GoNs for their own reasons and personal use only.

 

 

 

 

In general:

LIMIT:

Dream: no limit on GoNs

Optimal comprimises: a limit of 7-10

Absolutely minimal expectation: a limit of 5

 

PUREBREEDING:

compromise(for everybody to either be happy or actually not infulenced at all): possible but not increasing the success ratio of getting a GoN (look: my sollution idea above)

 

 

I'm a fraid a lot of 'reasons' against of these come from jealously or even envyness, and also exaggeration and selfishness. Things like not wanting anybody to have a chance to have more GoNs if they're luckier than you or just because you don't need the change is simply based on envyness and selfishness (with refusing others to have a possibility to be happy with their scrolls) only and should not be considered valid.

 

 

 

That was kind of a basic summarize. +suggestion for how GoNs could purebreed in a way not affecting anything but lineages.

Edited May 22, 2014 by Aniusia483

[Vhale]

/upvote for raising it to 5 for hatchy sprites

I'm fine with it staying as is, but I'd certainly go for a set if I could.

[edwardelricfreak]

Aniusia: Yes yes I love all of that!

 

Except one thing. I think the purebreeding thing should always be alongside unlimited (or further raised limits), because it's possible that not everyone influenced their GoNs a specific way, so they could be stuck with some hatchlings and/or all male/female GoNs and not be able to ever get any more, even though purebreeding is a thing.

 

Unless they get rid of a GoN...and then they have to get one again which could take forever.

 

----

 

Also gonna say I posted something incorrect earlier when I said GoNs can't be released (and maybe also killed but I can't remember if I said that specifically right now). I just meant abandoned. I was thinking of only abandonment, but that translated to also releasing. Oops. I still stand by my points, though.

[TheGrox]

Whilst I'd love to get the hatchie sprites for scroll completion, if the limit was upped a little to say 5, then I'd probably keep most of them as adults, for breeding purposes. As long as it's sufficiently hard to get them that people can't get tons, then I wouldn't mind limits being lifted completely.

[edwardelricfreak]

What's wrong with someone getting tons, though?

 

Also even with these raised chances, it's still sufficiently hard to get them. :Y

 

GoNs are in no way easy to get and removing limits does not make them easier to get.

[TheGrox]

GoNs are in no way easy to get and removing limits does not make them easier to get.

I'm pretty sure TJ said he'd upped the chances of successfully summoning, so I don't think we know exactly how hard they are to get now as yet. I just feel that they should be rare, so it shouldn't be too easy to get them, but I am still in favour of removing limits.

[edwardelricfreak]

I'm pretty sure TJ said he'd upped the chances of successfully summoning, so I don't think we know exactly how hard they are to get now as yet. I just feel that they should be rare, so it shouldn't be too easy to get them, but I am still in favour of removing limits.

I JUST said, right above the sentence you quoted, that even with upped chances they're still hard to get... D: Yeah I might not know how much he upped them, but I'm still 99.999999999% sure they're plenty hard to get.

 

They're NOT easy to get. Raising limits won't make them easier to get. They'll still be plenty rare and unique and speshul.

 

I seriously doubt he raised them a ton. At most he might have made in 5%, but then again, we don't even know what percent they were BEFORE they were raised. I'm sure he wants them to stay rare. Also, from the posts in the news thread, it seems like lots of people still aren't having any luck with summoning. I sure didn't, but then again I only have two complete sets, so...

[pinkgothic]

Ah, but there is a catch, because this would be the base, then modified by the number of full sets of trios that you have so even a small chance, given enough increase would eventually run into a summon.

 

Honestly, I haven't seen anyone report that it made a significant difference for them (about comparable with people's reports of Fertility), but let's assume they pack a notable punch: Say your start chance would be upped to 50% (from my hypothetical 25%). Your second GoN chance would be 40%. Your third would be 32%. Your fourth would be 25.6%, and then from there on it's almost the same progression as before.

 

So if you hoarded trios, you'd get three GoN with a higher Summon chance than your fellow players. Then you're out of benefit.

 

(And that would suppose:

 

1) we have a base chance of 25%

2) with enough trio sets the base chance would be doubled

3) the decrease is only 20% per step.

 

All of which are variable.)

 

No one is asking for them to be easier to get, just to be allowed to try for as many as that person wants.

 

To be entirely fair, I'm asking for them to be easier to get... initially, then progress to subsequently lower chances after every successful attempt. (Though I figure that could easily amount to being more restrictive over time than keeping the chance as it is now for each Summon and just allowing unlimited GoNs; but that depends on how many GoNs someone would try for.)

 

(I see KageSora made a similar suggestion as part of his plea for purebreeding.)

 

-

 

As a sidenote, I certainly won't be upset if GoNs remain limited, don't get me wrong, but none of the reasons brought forth to keep them limited make much sense to me.

Edited May 22, 2014 by pinkgothic