Remove GoN Breed Limits

[Cinnamin Draconna]

That's the key I think. Summon is not guaranteed. Some folk got lucky and got one on their first try.. some folk have been trying for 4 yrs and still don't have one. TJ raised the limit to 3, and again, some folk got lucky and summoned their 3rd on the first try.

 

But it all boils down to LUCK.

 

So why is it such a big deal to remove the limit all together?

 

1. It's pure luck if you do manage to Summon

2. If you do get an egg, it stays on your scroll

3. Breeding doesn't give you a new GoN

 

So what difference does it make?

 

GoNs are never, ever going to be common. They're just too darn hard to get in the first place unless you are very, very lucky. And luck is fickle.. lucky today, does not mean lucky tomorrow.. and some folk seem to be lucky once, then unlucky ever after.

 

So again, what difference does it make if we can Summon an unlimited amount of GoNs.. it's not like were suddenly going to have a hundred of them. Most folk will be super lucky if they get half a dozen.

Edited May 24, 2014 by Cinnamin Draconna

[edwardelricfreak]

^^^YES to all of this^^^

 

Some posts seem to suggest that no limits means everyone will try (and will get) like 50-100+ GoNs each, which will probably NEVER be the case unless someone is EXTREMELY lucky, tries EVERY chance they can summon, and has a bagillion complete trios.

 

Even if they did manage to get 50+, who cares? I can understand some envy, but other than that, how does it affect you personally? It really doesn't. And hey, they could have the potential of breeding more Avatars. I don't think Avatars will ever become super common, either (at least not 2nd gens). I think they'll be like Shimmers and Tinsels. Higher gens will probably be EVERYWHERE, but low gens will be rarer until more get their GoNs. I think they might be more common than Shimmers/Tinsels, but less common than Golds/Silvers, since anyone can get a GoN anytime and don't have to wait for a raffle, but you're more likely to catch a CB metal from the cave than summon a GoN (and CB metals don't have a "summon cooldown").

 

I'm not even sure that the Avatars are meant to be rare. They're meant to be special GoN babies, but I don't think rarity is really a factor (at least in total population, because low gens will probably always be rarer due to GoN rarity). So I don't think that should be argued.

[Allspice]

That's the key I think. Summon is not guaranteed. Some folk got lucky and got one on their first try.. some folk have been trying for 4 yrs and still don't have one. TJ raised the limit to 3, and again, some folk got lucky and summoned their 3rd on the first try.

 

But it all boils down to LUCK.

 

So why is it such a big deal to remove the limit all together?

 

1. It's pure luck if you do manage to Summon

2. If you do get an egg, it stays on your scroll

3. Breeding doesn't give you a new GoN

 

So what difference does it make?

 

GoNs are never, ever going to be common. They're just too darn hard to get in the first place unless you are very, very lucky. And luck is fickle.. lucky today, does not mean lucky tomorrow.. and some folk seem to be lucky once, then unlucky ever after.

 

So again, what difference does it make if we can Summon an unlimited amount of GoNs.. it's not like were suddenly going to have a hundred of them. Most folk will be super lucky if they get half a dozen.

QFT.

 

I agree that there shouldn't be any other changes to them, just lift the limit on how many you can summon for yourself. What does it matter if one person decides to stop at three, but I decide I want to keep trying for more? It doesn't have any impact on anyone but myself, your chances of summoning one is based on how many sets of Trios you have not how many GoNs there are.

 

And even if you try every time you can (every two weeks), how many can you possibly get in a year? It took me a year to summon one and I just got my second last month after another year of trying (I also tried to get a third on DC's Birthday and got nothing). No one will ever have a huge amount of them, there is just too low a chance you'll successfully summon one.

 

Like I said before, when they didn't do anything but look pretty the limit didn't matter. But now they are not only breedable, they make beautiful hybrids. For people who make lineages like I do, it is very sad to see such beautiful dragons that I can't really do anything with.

Edited May 24, 2014 by Allspice

[CNR4806]

And, really, I feel like the important special characteristic of the GoN's is that the CB's are summoned instead of being found in the biomes like every other CB (outside of raffle prizes).

 

I mean, they're not even unique in that you can't have PB offspring. Look at the holiday dragons that have one sex. For non-holiday examples the Bright Pinks were like that back in the day before they were retired. The Purples, too, before the male was added. Those were normal dragons you could catch in the cave that, at the time, were unable to make PB babies.

 

If some other concept is released that's a one-sex concept (unless it's a hermaphrodite) you won't be able to get PBs of that, either.

 

You can't get PB babies of hybrids, either, because of their nature as hybrids.

 

So... Yeah, not breeding PB babies doesn't really make them unique.

 

As for other dragons that don't have lineages... Any unbreedable doesn't have anything to do with lineages. GoN's used to be just another unbreedable in that category until the Avatars were released. So they weren't even unique in that respect.

PBing doesn't exactly concern me, my apologies for using that term. I must have seen that word in this thread way too many times and neglected to use the correct terminology for the topic, ie. "GoNs breeding true", thus further contributing to the misuse of the term PBing.

 

In their current state GoNs can only be summoned with no other possible method to obtain them (other than HMs in raffles, but that's clearly an exception as you can get actual unobtainiums that dwarf a GoN from the same event).

 

In other words, introduction of any method to obtain GoNs that isn't plain old summoning is going to destroy that aspect.

 

fuzz's alternative suggestion, while still nominally coined "summoning", creates a visible lineage. Do note that not even vampires have a proper bite-lineage, nor do existing GoNs denote just which trio you have lead the summoning ritual that resulted in their "birth" (let alone a summon-lineage). So a "GoN-summoned" GoN with a lineage is really not that different from having them breed true.

[DragonLady86]

That's like saying 'how many actually would?' to the question of who would hoard cb golds.

 

Their rarity alone means that some people will be willing to keep on trying and trying, just like some people will be willing to sit in the cave refreshing and refreshing.

I have no real desire to have any CB golds, though the newer sprite is better than the old one, I still do really like them, or silvers for that matter.

 

So, yes, some people would and do, but CB golds are far, far easier to get with much less frustration than summoning. You can trade a bunch of common hatchlings for a CB metal.

 

I still don't understand why GoN's breeding more GoN's keep coming up in this thread, it has nothing to do with whether or not there are limits, and really needs it's own thread if people want it that bad. Personally TJ's comment that they will not breed more GoN's is, in my opinion, the end of that discussion. (Yes, I know, he does change his mind and that's fine,) but if you want them to breed true, make a new thread to hash out that argument and stop hijacking this one.

 

The argument about holiday limits really confuses me too. What does the limit of 2 CB holidays have to do with the GoN's? I didn't understand that at all.

 

 

Here's what I see on limits:

Everyone in support is okay with keeping a limit but simply raising it. 5-9 being the range.

alternative version was to have limits go up every year on DC's birthday. Takes longer in theory, but limits will still outstrip the average players ability to fill them.

No matter what the limit is raised to, some people will be unhappy.

Ratios do not affect GoN's. what player A has does not affect player B.

They are untradeable

The odds are very low for success.

there is a max of 26 summons a player can make in a single year.

It is possible to go years without success.

High fail rate causes frustration.

frustration makes people want to mess with it less.

Regardless of limits few players are going to be dedicated to trying every chance to see how many they can get. (and this was my point about how many players would even try to obtain more than 10 GoN's ) of course I don't see many managing 10 either.

 

Edited May 25, 2014 by DragonLady86

[edwardelricfreak]

I still don't understand why GoN's breeding more GoN's keep coming up in this thread, it has nothing to do with whether or not there are limits, and really needs it's own thread if people want it that bad. Personally TJ's comment that they will not breed more GoN's is, in my opinion, the end of that discussion. (Yes, I know, he does change his mind and that's fine,) but if you want them to breed true, make a new thread to hash out that argument and stop hijacking this one.

I'm pretty sure I responded to someone saying the same-ish thing.

 

PBing GoNs was suggested as an alternative (or compliment) to removing GoN limits. Basically, you could only summon 3, but you could breed more. As a complimentary feature, you could summon/breed as many as you wanted (though chances would still be low of either happening).

 

THAT is why it's being talked about.

[KageSora]

I'm pretty sure I responded to someone saying the same-ish thing.

 

PBing GoNs was suggested as an alternative (or compliment) to removing GoN limits. Basically, you could only summon 3, but you could breed more. As a complimentary feature, you could summon/breed as many as you wanted (though chances would still be low of either happening).

 

THAT is why it's being talked about.

Yes, this.

 

Additionally, if you REALLY think it needs it's own thread, just report posts to a mod and suggest that they're off topic and deserve their own thread and let a mod decide if it fits with the current discussion or not.

[Fuzzbucket]

PBing doesn't exactly concern me, my apologies for using that term. I must have seen that word in this thread way too many times and neglected to use the correct terminology for the topic, ie. "GoNs breeding true", thus further contributing to the misuse of the term PBing.

 

In their current state GoNs can only be summoned with no other possible method to obtain them (other than HMs in raffles, but that's clearly an exception as you can get actual unobtainiums that dwarf a GoN from the same event).

 

In other words, introduction of any method to obtain GoNs that isn't plain old summoning is going to destroy that aspect.

 

fuzz's alternative suggestion, while still nominally coined "summoning", creates a visible lineage. Do note that not even vampires have a proper bite-lineage, nor do existing GoNs denote just which trio you have lead the summoning ritual that resulted in their "birth" (let alone a summon-lineage). So a "GoN-summoned" GoN with a lineage is really not that different from having them breed true.

My suggestion was in fact a breeding true suggestion - but that breeding true had to use the same kind of ritual used in summoning a non-lineaged GoN. It would lock the cooldown to 2 weeks for everyone involved - GoNs couldn't breed avatars for two weeks, just as the trio couldn't summon, either.

 

Just to be clear.

 

I don't actually want this (though I wouldn't mind either way) - it was just a suggested compromise for those who want lineages - and should mean that creating a lineage would be sheer hell on wheels !

[grimace]

What if the limits were just bumped to 3 adults and 3 hatchlings.

Then it functionally is still a limit of 3, but people can have frozen hatchlings if they want them.

[Ashywolf]

I agree it is kind of unfair that "collectors" must lose 2 of their GoN breeding availability spaces when they freeze 2 hatchlings...

 

But does it need to change? I don't know that.

Edited May 29, 2014 by Ashywolf

[edwardelricfreak]

What if the limits were just bumped to 3 adults and 3 hatchlings.

Then it functionally is still a limit of 3, but people can have frozen hatchlings if they want them.

Actually I'd like it if maybe hatchlings could be unlimited, but adults still had the limit of 3.

[olympe]

That would favor one playing style over another - which isn't supposed to happen. Why should someone who doesn't freeze hatchlings be penalized for not doing so?

 

I think removing the limit, but increasing the cooldown for Summon by one week for each GoN on the player's scroll would suffice. (In this kind of scenario, I'd like to see the cooldown start at 1 week for people who haven't been able to Summon their first GoN yet.) Sure, it would still be possible to summon a huge number of GoNs - but it would take a very long time. I mean - you'd literally have to wait a whole year to even try to summon GoN #51...

Edited May 29, 2014 by olympe

[TheGrox]

I feel kinda like increasing the cooldown depending on how many GoNs you have is just over-complicating things a little. It doesn't make much sense from an RP perspective, either. I'd much rather just have unlimited summons, but with a reduced chance the at being successful the more GoNs you have (which admittedly doesn't make much RP sense either, now that I come to think about it...).

[olympe]

Actually, it does make sense.

 

Your trios would only try to Summon a GoN in dire circumstances. With one GoN already at your scroll, chances are that said dire circumstances don't occur in the first place.

 

Although your version makes sense, too. Your trios try to summon a (new) GoN - only to have one of your existing ones turning up and taking care of things.

[edwardelricfreak]

That would favor one playing style over another - which isn't supposed to happen. Why should someone who doesn't freeze hatchlings be penalized for not doing so?

Um, no.

 

The adults are extremely powerful, but hatchlings aren't so much. So of course it makes sense to be able to have more hatchlings and a very limited amount of adults.

 

I wasn't even thinking about play styles.

[olympe]

It's still favoring people who freeze by allowing them more GoN - whether you thought about it or not.

 

According to your logic about weak hatchlings, you shouldn't even be able to freeze them because they're so special. Maybe the trios should stop you from casting the freezing spell... After all, they summoned the GoN because they needed a very powerful and special adult GoN in the foreseeable future. They didn't summon a GoN to have an eternally helpless baby sitting around.

 

Mind you, I'm not trying to get TJ to make GoNs unfreezable - because we players should have a choice of what we want to do with "our" dragons. But, like GoNs shouldn't be unfreezable, they shouldn't be force-frozen after you reach a certain limit of GoN adults, either.

[edwardelricfreak]

I didn't say they were weak, just not as powerful as the adults.

 

I don't see why that means the trio has to stop you from freezing them.

[olympe]

Because freezing a GoN so it doesn't reach its full potential would go against the very principle of summoning a creature of (almost?) divine power level.

 

When you buy your child (kid sister/brother, nephew/niece) an ice cone, you don't intend for them to hand the cone (complete with ice cream) to the family dog, do you? You'd probably try to stop the kid from doing so if you knew that was what he/she intended.

 

It's the same with trios - who go through a stressful summoning ritual - you and the GoN egg.

[edwardelricfreak]

I'm not sure how good that analogy is...If my kid wanted to give the dog the ice cream, that's their loss, not mine.

 

Considering that we can already freeze GoN hatchlings, I'm thinking that it's a non-issue. Trios would have stopped those people. Even though they spent all that work summoning, they didn't do a thing to stop someone from freezing a GoN. While it's likely that most people that freeze them already had an adult, I still think it's a non-issue.

Edited May 29, 2014 by edwardelricfreak

[grimace]

You're forgetting that its a game.

You could get the same trios and breed them hundreds of times, and then kill their inbred offspring repeatedly, after giving the parents insulting names. I know I've bred dragons on my scroll and stabbed them to death on halloween trying to make zombies. I'm sure most parents wouldn't be too happy with you killing their children in order to practice necromancy.

 

There are some things that obviously wouldnt happen in real life, but its not really possible to take into account what dragons would/wouldnt allow in a game as inherently simple as dc.

[Cinnamin Draconna]

Again with the RP references.. which are irrelevant to how the game actually works. *sheesh*

 

Allowing a 3 adult, 3 frozen hatchling limit is UNFAIR to those who don't freeze as part of their play style. Example: I, personally, only freeze gendered paper hatchlings to use as scroll dividers. If that limit were imposed I would feel cheated, because someone else could have 6 GoNs where I could only have 3 because I DON'T FREEZE. If the limit is 6, I want 6 ADULTS, period!!!

 

Regardless of that tho, since I don't see it happening.. TJ isn't stupid enough to do something that would alienate so much of the userbase.. I still feel that there should be NO limit on Summoning. A successful Summons is so rare that there's no way GoN's would ever become common.. so there's zero reason to limit them.

[grimace]

Again with the RP references.. which are irrelevant to how the game actually works. *sheesh*

 

Allowing a 3 adult, 3 frozen hatchling limit is UNFAIR to those who don't freeze as part of their play style. Example: I, personally, only freeze gendered paper hatchlings to use as scroll dividers. If that limit were imposed I would feel cheated, because someone else could have 6 GoNs where I could only have 3 because I DON'T FREEZE. If the limit is 6, I want 6 ADULTS, period!!!

 

Regardless of that tho, since I don't see it happening.. TJ isn't stupid enough to do something that would alienate so much of the userbase.. I still feel that there should be NO limit on Summoning. A successful Summons is so rare that there's no way GoN's would ever become common.. so there's zero reason to limit them.

I would prefer no limit to summoning, but its pretty awful to not allow something because "what if it isnt in some peoples play style? oh no!"

 

Especially when its something that would have absolutely no effect on anyone. Frozen GoN hatchlings don't give anyone an advantage or anything.

 

Should we make it impossible to collect more than a gendered pair of each dragon? After all, there are people who do that, and someone who felt like collecting much more than that has a trading advantage over that player and we can't have that, right?

 

The only time "but it could give some people an advantage" should ever be an excuse for anything is when said action is something impossible to most of the userbase. Everyone would be capable of whatever limits were enacted, if they didn't want to get however many GoNs, thats up to them.

[edwardelricfreak]

Frozen GoN hatchlings don't give anyone an advantage or anything.

That's why I feel like it would be okay to possibly have the limit stay for adults, but not count frozen hatchlings. So you could just have a bunch of hatchlings or none at all, but everyone is still limited for the adults. I imagine that if you had more adults, more GoNs you get would auto-freeze at the S2 stage (unless you manually freeze something as an S1).

 

As far as alienating play styles: the fact that their are any limits on anything already bar those that get x number of adults, hatchlings, whatever from their goal. Personally I like to have at least one of each gender adult (though I prefer more) plus one of each gender S2 and then an S1. So with a three GoN limit I can't have my goal.

 

I wasn't even thinking about my goal when I mentioned no limits on hatchlings, but I guess that would essentially benefit me. But I'd probably only ever have three hatchlings anyway.

 

Overall I would really just like no limit, even if it's done in a way where the chances slightly decrease the more GoNs you get.

[olympe]

I would prefer no limit to summoning, but its pretty awful to not allow something because "what if it isnt in some peoples play style? oh no!"

 

Especially when its something that would have absolutely no effect on anyone. Frozen GoN hatchlings don't give anyone an advantage or anything.

 

Should we make it impossible to collect more than a gendered pair of each dragon? After all, there are people who do that, and someone who felt like collecting much more than that has a trading advantage over that player and we can't have that, right?

 

The only time "but it could give some people an advantage" should ever be an excuse for anything is when said action is something impossible to most of the userbase. Everyone would be capable of whatever limits were enacted, if they didn't want to get however many GoNs, thats up to them.

Grimace, your reasoning makes absolutely no sense to me. What CinnaminDraconna and I are saying is that forcing people to freeze additional GoNs because of - well, what reason, exactly? - is unfair to those of us who don't freeze. Why not leave people the choice of what they're going to do? Raise them or freeze them - it's everybody's own choice. By asking for extra hatchlings only takes away that kind of choice. For players like CD and me, it's either play the game your way, or miss out on something extra. Why can't you just let us play our way?

 

Either allow for as many GoNs as people want (and manage to summon), or keep the limits. Let people choose what to do within the limits or without the limits, without telling them how to play in order to get privileged with "extra" GoNs.

 

Also, what kind of advantage do GoNs give? The only one I can think of is the ability to breed the new Avatars. Which can also be traded for. It used to be the same with Valentine and Christmas winter holiday dragons. Either you kept two adults for breeding projects of any kind, or you collected one adult + one hatchling for collecting purposes.

 

I wasn't even thinking about my goal when I mentioned no limits on hatchlings, but I guess that would essentially benefit me.

And you seriously never noticed that this would "essentially benefit" you? Edited May 29, 2014 by olympe

[grimace]

Grimace, your reasoning makes absolutely no sense to me. What CinnaminDraconna and I are saying is that forcing people to freeze additional GoNs because of - well, what reason, exactly? - is unfair to those of us who don't freeze. Why not leave people the choice of what they're going to do? Raise them or freeze them - it's everybody's own choice. By asking for extra hatchlings only takes away that kind of choice. For players like CD and me, it's either play the game your way, or miss out on something extra. Why can't you just let us play our way?

 

Either allow for as many GoNs as people want (and manage to summon), or keep the limits. Let people choose what to do within the limits or without the limits, without telling them how to play in order to get privileged with "extra" GoNs.

 

Also, what kind of advantage do GoNs give? The only one I can think of is the ability to breed the new Avatars. Which can also be traded for. It used to be the same with Valentine and Christmas winter holiday dragons. Either you kept two adults for breeding projects of any kind, or you collected one adult + one hatchling for collecting purposes.

 

I wasn't even thinking about my goal when I mentioned no limits on hatchlings, but I guess that would essentially benefit me.

And you seriously never noticed that this would "essentially benefit" you?

Like I said, just no limits or bigger limits would be better.

 

Keep in mind you wouldn't be "forced" to freeze anything.