Remove GoN Breed Limits

[CNR4806]

To the people whose defense is the fact that the  Holiday Limits have been upped:

 

Note that we can still only get 2 CB Holidays and that's only if we're lucky enough to be there that year.

 

Also note that upping the Holiday Limits also allowed people to breed more Holiday Dragons and make people more willing to breed Holiday Dragons because now more people are able to pick up those dragons.

 

There was a very good reason why the Holiday Limit was upped. For GoNs, the only reasoning is "because we want more" which is a fair reason itself. But unless there is more to back it up, there's no real reason why we should have more than "x" amount of GoNs.

Holiday limits are not comparable in the first place as the reason behind their implementation is clearly different.

 

While there's currently some disagreement on why there is a limit for GoNs, I think we can all agree that it's not about letting the other users have a chance to obtain them, seeing as competition isn't even involved in summoning (until the change that makes trio sets increase summon chance, which introduced competition by proxy, which is rather negligible anyway IMO).

 

 

I'm really tired of seeing the same silly 'reasons' against changing/removing the limit and purebreeding of GoNs.

I'm a fraid a lot of 'reasons' against of these come from jealously or even envyness, and also exaggeration and selfishness. Things like not wanting anybody to have a chance to have more GoNs if they're luckier than you or just because you don't need the change is simply based on envyness and selfishness (with refusing others to have a possibility to be happy with their scrolls) only and should not be considered valid.

So you're suggesting that antagonizing the other side of the argument is valid?

 

Sufficiently said arguments do not work that way.

 

 

But in any case...

 

*** some of you say they're gods while TJ stated himself they're not;

[...]

This one doesn't fly, I agree.

 

*** you think this would make them not unique

- You say? Let me give examples of what makes them unique and would stay if they could purebreed:

Yep, they are going to stay unique, just like how my CB mint has a unique sprite, how my red can incubate and how my frill breeds like a permamently off-season holiday.

 

Doesn't mean that your proposed change doesn't make them less unique. Really, this entire breedable GoN thing already nuked GoNs down from draconic MacGuffins to special dragons, do we really need to make them even less unique?

 

 

Most of all, it wouldn't affect players who are against purebreeding. Because GoNs cannot be transfered to another user in ANY way. All GoNs stay on their motherscrolls. Or are released/killed. You personally have no harm if sb purebreeds the forever his/her GoNs for their own reasons and personal use only.

Well seeing that we're seeing this kind of reaction in the discussion of raising limits to 5, I don't see how something as drastic as enabling PB GoN breeding is not going to affect those agaisnt it.

 

And I explained that I can't just summon 4 and be done. The mere fact that I can summon that other one would compel me to do so. We all have our quirks and eccentricities. This is one of mine.

Edited May 22, 2014 by CNR4806

[TheGrox]

I JUST said, right above the sentence you quoted, that even with upped chances they're still hard to get... D: Yeah I might not know how much he upped them, but I'm still 99.999999999% sure they're plenty hard to get.

Yes, I can read. But nobody knows how much the limits were upped by, so your 'certainty' that they're still hard to get is questionable. The only way we will know how much easier they are to get now is by people reporting back on how successful they have been with summoning in the coming weeks.

Edited May 22, 2014 by TheGrox

[Fuzzbucket]

For the record, I know 7 people who have tried on or since the birthday and none succeeded.

 

If you're looking for stats.

[TheGrox]

Actually, I think someone mentioned higher up something like having the chances of summoning lower with every successful summon? Coupled with no limit, I wouldn't mind that. Give people a better chance to get their first ones, but make it more of a challenge to get a significant amount.

 

Me too Fuzz, so make that 8. I think I've seen a few successes in the congrats thread and such too.

Edited May 22, 2014 by TheGrox

[Imzadi]

Count me as a success

[edwardelricfreak]

Just so long as the ability isn't so nerfed after so many attempts that it's pretty much impossible. Like, hm, maybe no lower than .05% or something? I would say start no higher than 25% chance, though. o3o Probably make it lower like what it is already/a little higher/idk

[Sir Barton]

I know that I saw a handful, less than five I would say, successes mentioned in the news thread, but I haven't been following that closely. I can say that my roommate was unsuccessful. Still hasn't managed his first GON, and at this point, I'm not going for my third. I may be slightly masochistic, but.. yeah... not that much.

Edited May 22, 2014 by Sir Barton

[Aniusia483]

 

Doesn't mean that your proposed change doesn't make them less unique. Really, this entire breedable GoN thing already nuked GoNs down from draconic MacGuffins to special dragons, do we really need to make them even less unique?

 

 

 

Well seeing that we're seeing this kind of reaction in the discussion of raising limits to 5, I don't see how something as drastic as enabling PB GoN breeding is not going to affect those agaisnt it.

 

So you think all these are NOT making them unique enough?

Plus adding 2weeks cooldown for purebreeding would only make their breeding more unique, the only breed that purebreeds this way.

And why do you think that such kind of 'unique'(no purebreeding) that completely excludes goals of part of players is so crucial? I don't think it is. Let's not get that crazy about uniqueness to make it being a pretext to deny simply everything(like the againsts in this entire thread show)...

Doesn't each game need an achievable goal=purpose most of all?

E.g to me it doesn't have it without purebreeding. And without ability to obtain 5 dragons per breed(MF adult couple, MF S2s and a S1). I don't care about the difficulty that much, the thing is a goal must be possible to reach. Otherwise why bother playing?

 

And you don't have to breed yours. It's a matter of choice. Everything, as long as the choice exists.

 

 

DrasticXDDDDDD??!! (What is drastic is rather the way they breed now!)

This kind of affecting is simply creating issues just for oneself. Not real issues.

Edited May 22, 2014 by Aniusia483

[whitebaron]

I don't think that they should be lifted, mostly because I've always viewed them as a step above even other rare dragons and so having a hoard of them seems wrong... They're supposed to be hard to find!

I have a very large amount of CB metals, yet no adult GoN.

 

go figure how rare they are. they dont need limits to stay rare.

Edited May 22, 2014 by whitebaron

[Cinnamin Draconna]

Someone posted when the GoN's were released but I can't find it again...

I recieved my first on Nov 07, 2010

My second on Feb 09, 2011

 

I now have 7 full sets of the trio, but I failed on my 1st attemp to summon a 3rd. So I have no clue if sets make a difference or how much the chance has increased. I had many more fails than successes.

 

Given that failure is much more likely than success, I doubt that removing the limits will make that much difference. Especially considering that some folk are still trying for their 1st after FOUR YEARS!!!

 

For me tho, the BEST reason for removing the limit is to avoid inbreeding. I'd much rather breed my own dragons than have to trade for them.. the trading market is much too greedy for my game.

[TheGrox]

I have a very large amount of CB metals, yet no adult GoN.

 

go figure how rare they are. they dont need limits to stay rare.

And a lot of people have the maximum of two GoNs that they could have (before the limits were changed), but no CB Metals. I don't think your one example is representative of the majority (not least because I'd say you're probably better at acquiring CB Metals than the majority of players, ;p). The rarity of CB Metals and GoNs really isn't comparable as it is, because they work so differently.

[CNR4806]

So you think all these are NOT making them unique enough?

Plus adding 2weeks cooldown for purebreeding would only make their breeding more unique, the only breed that purebreeds this way.

And why do you think that such kind of 'unique'(no purebreeding) that completely excludes goals of part of players is so crucial? I don't think it is. Let's not get that crazy about uniqueness to make it being a pretext to deny simply everything(like the againsts in this entire thread show)...

Doesn't each game need an achievable goal=purpose most of all?

E.g to me it doesn't have it without purebreeding. And without ability to obtain 5 dragons per breed(MF adult couple, MF S2s and a S1). I don't care about the difficulty that much, the thing is a goal must be possible to reach. Otherwise why bother playing?

 

And you don't have to breed yours. It's a matter of choice. Everything, as long as the choice exists.

 

 

DrasticXDDDDDD??!! (What is drastic is rather the way they breed now!)

This kind of affecting is simply creating issues just for oneself.

A good part of their uniqueness lies in the fact that summoning is the only way to obtain them. Having the chance of purebreeding lower/higher than summoning and having their cooldown at one week or one year doesn't change the fact that you're destroying that aspect.

 

The fact that you are blatantly disregarding the breed's uniqueness in favor of your own personal scroll goal is as at least as disturbing to me as you are disturbed by the fact that you can't fulfill the said goal. And that is before taking into account that said goal, as specified by you in the news thread, was never achieveable with GoNs at any point after their original release, yet is hyped up by you as if the recent update robbed you of the ability to achieve that impossible goal.

 

And yes, this is drastic, even more than GoNs breeding hybrids because you're shaking the foundation of the breed as summon-only.

Edited May 22, 2014 by CNR4806

[angelicdragonpuppy]

My main reason to hope limits are lifted actually has nothing to do with lineages (this topic was made long before this release). It's because people's play styles differ. Before, people could never have an adult / S2 / S1 set. That's finally possible, but other goals (one of each gender at each stage, five pairs, a dozen of each breed, whatever) are still out of reach.

 

That being said, now that avatars DO exist, there's a whole second reason to support upped amounts. People (albeit not all of them) were actually succeeding in trading the new eggs 1:1 for CB Metals. I would wager those willing to pay that high were the unfortunate people with no luck summoning. Increase the GoNs, you increase the amount of their babies and reduce exploitation of the unlucky (although I imagine much of that problem will decrease with time, regardless of limits. Still, every bit helps!).

 

GoNs are also whoa holy cow ridiculously hard to summon. A person who puts in years of patiently clicking summon every two weeks until they have a dozen isn't making GoNs less special or easier to get. Still the only dragon that requires rares to get / is summoned / can breed hybrids with almost any breed / can only be obtained by random chance / can't be traded. They are special beasts and always will be, whether in small numbers or small but slightly larger numbers.

Edited May 22, 2014 by angelicdragonpuppy

[Fiona]

They were released March 26(?), 2010. At that time I had several full sets of trios. (5, I think)

 

I successfully summoned my first GoN on March 1, 2013. At that time I had 17 full sets of trios.

 

I successfully summoned my second GoN on July 9, 2013. At that time I had 19 full sets of trios.

 

On May 21 I attempted to summon my third GoN and was unsuccessful.

 

 

Note: (?) March 26 may not be the exact date. It's within a week though.

[Aniusia483]

A good part of their uniqueness lies in the fact that summoning is the only way to obtain them. Having the chance of purebreeding lower/higher than summoning and having their cooldown at one week or one year doesn't change the fact that you're destroying that aspect.

 

The fact that you are blatantly disregarding the breed's uniqueness in favor of your own personal scroll goal is as at least as disturbing to me as you are disturbed by the fact that you can't fulfill the said goal. And that is before taking into account that said goal, as specified by you in the news thread, was never achieveable with GoNs at any point after their original release, yet is hyped up by you as if the recent update robbed you of the ability to achieve that impossible goal.

 

And yes, this is drastic, even more than GoNs breeding hybrids because you're shaking the foundation of the breed as summon-only.

That made sense when they couldn't breed at all.

You say destroying, I say improving into natural and purposeful.

 

 

Their uniqueness is not granted by restricted by summoning being the only way to get one. And I don't think that such uniqueness is so crucial to TJ hence he made them able to breed at all.

 

 

They haven't counted there just because they were totally unable to breed! Now they can... in a completely irrational way BTW.

 

 

This entire 'uniqueness' (restricted to summoning) works like having a tunnel vision/wearing blinkers on you...

You're blatantly disregarding reasonable gameplay systems of other players just becuase you don't share such with them.

Live and let others to.

Edited May 22, 2014 by Aniusia483

[RMMC]

Well, putting in my 2¢ worth here.

 

As a breeder, I'd love higher limits (and an even number, please), but...

 

As has been mentioned by others before me, I can only see that leading to frustration, envy, drama, spitefulness, and possibly an increase in viewbombing.

 

I had been one of those players who was extremely annoyed trying to Summon. While I'd gotten my first one on the second attempt back in 2010, it took just one month shy of three years to get the second. And yes, seeing folks who had been playing less than six months with both, frustrated me to no end.

 

I can see that easily spilling over from other folks (yes, like the ones who viewbomb and egg or a whole scroll because someone else grabbed the egg they were trying for) and some true nastiness evolving from it.

 

The only way I could see this working without it exploding into a huge brouhaha, is if the chances of Summoning successfully are significantly increased. As we have no idea just how much TJ increased those odds. Going from say, 1% to 3%, (I have no idea what the actual percentage chances are, but they've been pretty darn small from what was witnessed on fan sites) is an increase, but it's still a negligible chance to start with and remains negligible. (Think Purple BSA here...there's an increase for fertility, but it's so small it remains imperceptible which is why many people, myself included, don't bother with it.)

 

So, if the success rate has truly been significantly, ie: noticeably increased, then yes, I'd like an increased limit. If the success rate is still infinitesimally small, then no, three should be it, so as to limit drama and possible malice.

 

 

[CNR4806]

A potentially interesting compromise might be to make GoN-acquisition easier (and I do mean easier, not "keep it the same as it is now") for the first GoNs and then scale the chances down the more of them you have. That way you still have no limit, but it becomes increasingly more difficult to add One More GoN [TM] to your scroll as time goes by.

 

Something like:

 

- a 25% chance per Summon until you have your first GoN

- a 20% chance per Summon after you had your first GoN, until you have your second GoN

- a 16% chance per Summon after you had your second GoN, until you have your third GoN

- a 12.8% chance per Summon after you had your third GoN, until you have your fourth GoN

- a 10.24% chance per Summon after you had your fourth GoN, until you have your fifth GoN

- an 8.19% chance per Summon after you had your fifth GoN, until you have your sixth GoN

- and so on.

 

(That example is a 20% chance reduction each step (e.g. 20% of a 20% chance is 4%, so the next step is 16%). You'd have a 3.36% chance per Summon for your 10th GoN, and by the time you tried to get your 16th GoN your chance would be under one percent - but it would never quite reach zero.*)

Well I just digged back and re-read this.

 

This is an interesting approach toward further upping the limits indeed. I don't like the arbitary numbers presented on the chart but that's obviously not an issue.

 

I am not really in favor of making the initial summon too easy, for reasons already stated regarding their supposed rarity, but I find the overall concept of diminishing success chance with a theoratically non-existent breed limit sound, interesting and fair enough.

 

As for the recent development about a minimum chance where the success chance stops declining after a successful summon, I think that as long as that cutoff point is low enough to make the system meaningful, there shouldn't be any problem.

Edited May 22, 2014 by CNR4806

[Thuban]

I summoned both of my GoNs with only ONE set of trios (I only own one thunder).

 

I didn't care if I summoned an egg or not, so wasnt religiously summoning. Got my first one Jul 02, 2011.. my second one happened May 30, 2013. My son got both of his pretty early on, with only 2-3 sets of trios.

 

Trios are one of those dragons that I like the looks of, but not enough to actually collect, outside of considering hoarding ice hatchys. Outside of my scroll.. I love seeing the lineages people do with them, but they just havent gotten my attention. GoNs on the other hand.. pretty to look at, but because they served no real purpose, I had no interest in trying to get one. Even now that they can breed.. until they start kicking out common babies, I have no interest in breeding them.

 

With that in mind, I would still like to see the limits upped a little, for those people who actually enjoy the idea of breeding them. I would love to see the trade threads have things other than prizes and "metals" for a change. It has absolutely no effect on *MY* perception of the game if someone has 20 of them.. (though honestly.. 3-5 is plenty). I have no interest in them, but it wouldnt bother me if other people had more.

 

Shoot, even if the limit only goes up by 1 a year.. on DCs birthday.. thats still nice. It provides a market for trading trios again (outside of those users who enjoy them for lineages, or have yet to summon for their first time). The new hybrids, will have some pretty awesome potential for trading purposes for quite awhile. I'm happy to see something shake up lineages for awhile, even if i personally don't care for hybrids (in general)

[Vhale]

Shoot, even if the limit only goes up by 1 a year.. on DCs birthday.. thats still nice. It provides a market for trading trios again (outside of those users who enjoy them for lineages, or have yet to summon for their first time). The new hybrids, will have some pretty awesome potential for trading purposes for quite awhile. I'm happy to see something shake up lineages for awhile, even if i personally don't care for hybrids (in general)

That's a cute idea.

 

I got my first GoN on the first day of release, Mar 27, 2010 Though perhaps it was midnight 26th technically. I was the first person to post the egg sprite in the release thread.

 

http://dragcave.net/view/EpZE

 

http://dragcave.net/view/FRCm

 

I got my second Apr 11, 2011 and I was pretty good about summoning attempts. I have quite a few trios due to really liking Magmas and Ice, though I'm not as crazy about thunders and have fewer of those. Failed my first 3 summon attempt this week.

 

I was extremely tempted to freeze a hatchy with the 2 limit. Now with three, I don't know. Realistically it depends on the breeding I get. I got an egg with a CB gold for the new avatars and am tempted to trade for a similar egg, but not knowing how difficult they'll be to breed I don't want to lose one and not be able to get another. Whatever experience I have trying to get the other eggs would influence whether I'd freeze a hatchy if it was upped to 5. Hypothetically, I'd love the hatchy spites.

[DragonLady86]

That made sense when they couldn't breed at all.

You say destroying, I say improving into natural and purposeful.

 

 

Their uniqueness is not granted by restricted by summoning being the only way to get one. And I don't think that such uniqueness is so crucial to TJ hence he made them able to breed at all.

 

 

They haven't counted there just because they were totally unable to breed! Now they can... in a completely irrational way BTW.

 

 

This entire 'uniqueness' (restricted to summoning) works like having a tunnel vision/wearing blinkers on you...

You're blatantly disregarding reasonable gameplay systems of other players just becuase you don't share such with them.

Live and let others to.

Going against any dragon's personal breed lore needs to have a better reason than "I can't meet personal scroll goals". "Improving" as you call it requires the permission of the original creators and TJ. And it is not something to suggest without a well thought out plan/reason. That's a large part of what happened to retire the Frills. (which, as a side note, I'm very happy to see they may be coming back)

 

I also do not see why pure-breeding keeps coming up in a thread about limits. As it is two different suggestions, it really should have it's own thread. I can not and do not support GoN's breeding more GoN's. You could always summon more (assuming the limits are raised) and say the adults are their parents. CB dragons have parents, we just can't see them. Same thing.

 

On topic: As a sprite collector I would like to see at least a minimum of 5. But I still support removing the limit entirely. I do not believe many people will try to "hoard" these dragons, until this update I hadn't summoned since I finally got my first. Too burned out from three years of frustration, yet I still say I would like to be able to try for more, eventually.

[Obscure_Trash]

if the limit only goes up by 1 a year.. on DCs birthday..

This is an interesting suggestion.

 

~

 

Right now three makes sense (to me) since they breed three different hybrids. Before hybrids, I was against this. With hybrids, I do not mind an increase, but I don't want anything drastically higher (such as unlimited). Summoning is such a relief when it's finally successful that having to go through the stress of it all over again is, well, stressful. x3

 

For info's sake, I summoned my first on Mar 19, 2011. I wasn't here when GoNs or trios were first released, so I don't know when I began summoning. I had all three trio by Nov 28, 2010 (got my first at the end of July), so sometime around then is when I would have started summoning. Fourish months. My second didn't come until Apr 16, 2013 (my summoning was a little less regular but mostly on time). Almost two years later. (And since I got mine both before TJ upped the chances with more trio sets, I won't bother listing how many sets I have, though it's not many.)

[High Lord November]

I don't really think we need a raise in breed limit, let alone unlimited. These dragons are special, as well as the avatars (which is important! The avatars aren't meant to be "regular" dragons, like the rest of them; they represent the major base or core "elements" or makeup of all dragons), and with the supposed raise in summoning success rates, I think that should be enough. The avatars'll just take a bit longer to get. There are plenty of people willing to help others get their trio eggs in the trading section too.

 

Oh, and also, I guess the avatars can be traded as well? Or can they not?

Edited May 23, 2014 by High Lord November

[Wymsical]

Oh, and also, I guess the avatars can be traded as well? Or can they not?

They can, I traded for some earlier today.

[Sir Barton]

They haven't counted there just because they were totally unable to breed! Now they can... in a completely irrational way BTW.

 

 

Why do you see their breeding style as irrational? It is how hybrid species come about, after all.

 

Since your post on the news thread, I have considered your issues and actually think that the current way of GON breeding could fit in well and be a new chapter to your Draffection.

 

Instead of looking at the crossbreeding as being a limit, why not see it as yet another uniqueness to the GON? Yours could love a different breed so deeply that the offspring from their union ends up being an entirely new species — a new outcome of an extremely deep draffection bond. It would make for a lovely story.

 

Just a suggestion, because it's generally better focus on what you can do instead of frustrating yourself with what you can't... at least not at this time.

 

.... and I now return you to your original topic. Have fun.

[kerrikins]

If the limit has to be raised, I'd be okay with it as five for those who want complete hatchie sprites.

 

Also, a couple of things I want to point out:

 

This breed of dragon was thought to exist only in legend.

 

<snip>

 

Seen very rarely, it is thought that they only become active when something is threatening the territory they have chosen to guard.

 

Taken from the GoN description. I do think this should be kept in mind when considering whether or not the limits should be lifted. Unless TJ lowers the 'success' likelihood even further, if there were unlimited summons then the population of GoNs WOULD increase quite a bit by virtue of so many on DC suddenly being able to continue summoning.