Remove GoN Breed Limits

[DragonLady86]

 

 

Taken from the GoN description. I do think this should be kept in mind when considering whether or not the limits should be lifted. Unless TJ lowers the 'success' likelihood even further, if there were unlimited summons then the population of GoNs WOULD increase quite a bit by virtue of so many on DC suddenly being able to continue summoning.

Yes, but how many actually would? I haven't summoned for over a year I was so frustrated with the time it took to get the first one. Having new eggs to breed has given me reason to try again, but really? How many people will keep trying indefinitely? And since the summon chance isn't changing (unless the person is also collecting many trios) they will stay rare.

[edwardelricfreak]

Christmas dragons are also described as "rarely seen" yet they now have no limits (at least on bred ones).

 

I guess the two really shouldn't be compared, but I think for similar aspects like that, they can be.

 

Again, many don't even summon past their first one. I've seen some state that they aren't even going to try for a third even though it's available. Personally I think I would just keep trying on an off for as long as DC runs and I remember to summon, no matter how many I get. But...that's just me.

[kerrikins]

Yes, but how many actually would? I haven't summoned for over a year I was so frustrated with the time it took to get the first one. Having new eggs to breed has given me reason to try again, but really? How many people will keep trying indefinitely? And since the summon chance isn't changing (unless the person is also collecting many trios) they will stay rare.

That's like saying 'how many actually would?' to the question of who would hoard cb golds.

 

Their rarity alone means that some people will be willing to keep on trying and trying, just like some people will be willing to sit in the cave refreshing and refreshing.

[Obscure_Trash]

Christmas dragons are also described as "rarely seen" yet they now have no limits (at least on bred ones).

They are rarely seen, though - they're only seen once a year. =o

[edwardelricfreak]

They are rarely seen, though - they're only seen once a year. =o

You can still get a bunch, though. o3o If you play it right, you can get quite a few Christmas (and other holidays, too) a year.

 

The low summon chance for GoN = the year-long wait for holidays. Actually it's even more restrictive because it's still easier to get the holiday dragons than a GoN.

[Obscure_Trash]

You can still get a bunch, though. o3o If you play it right, you can get quite a few Christmas (and other holidays, too) a year.

 

The low summon chance for GoN = the year-long wait for holidays. Actually it's even more restrictive because it's still easier to get the holiday dragons than a GoN.

I'm not sure using the description to say no to this is the best argument (concepts can evolve and change), but I don't think it's really fair to compare GoN's and holidays was really my point, since there's different circumstances to grab them. Even if I go see the tarantula migration, if those are the only tarantula's I see in a year, I then rarely see them. ^^

[edwardelricfreak]

It's probably the closest thing we CAN compare, though.

 

I just don't think that GoNs should be limited. There are already enough limitations in place to keep them from being super common unless a user is INCREDIBLY lucky. I don't think they need permanent fixed numbers. Even if it increases by one every year or even every couple of years, it would at least not be fixed. So what if someone wants to try to get 42 GoNs? They'll have put in the work of getting trio sets and have had the patience in working slowly towards that goal. It's not like they can give out their GoNs. The only thing they can give to others is any hybrid offspring from said GoNs.

 

It's possible that the description also only means they're rarely seen naturally. They rarely come here unless we summon them.

[Fuzzbucket]

A good part of their uniqueness lies in the fact that summoning is the only way to obtain them. Having the chance of purebreeding lower/higher than summoning and having their cooldown at one week or one year doesn't change the fact that you're destroying that aspect.

 

The fact that you are blatantly disregarding the breed's uniqueness in favor of your own personal scroll goal is as at least as disturbing to me as you are disturbed by the fact that you can't fulfill the said goal. And that is before taking into account that said goal, as specified by you in the news thread, was never achieveable with GoNs at any point after their original release, yet is hyped up by you as if the recent update robbed you of the ability to achieve that impossible goal.

 

And yes, this is drastic, even more than GoNs breeding hybrids because you're shaking the foundation of the breed as summon-only.

This. I'm not that concerned about upping the number you can have, especially considering that they are ultra hard to get - but I would not like them to lose the specialness of being summon-only. So please let them not be able to breed true.

 

*unless*

 

You had to summon the ability to breed - you could have that as a choice when you go to summon.

 

"Do you want to "try for" (need better word here) a dragon by breeding your Guardian of Nature or by summoning an egg ?" with the same cooldown for both methods - i.e. your GoN couldn't breed again, even with a common, till the full two weeks for summoning were up.

 

That would keep the specialness of having to use summon to get one, but would allow those who want PBs SO much to try for them and get furious every two weeks, just like those with no GoN at all after x years... Frustration for all - fairness. PB GoNs without spoiling their specialness - check.

[whitebaron]

I wonder why people say upping limits or even removing them goes against lore?

 

a RARE dragon is something that's hard to obtain and makes it out to be only a little of the overall population. Something that cannot be bred, and on top of that can only be acquired via a 26-times a year chance, can never be not rare.

 

Compare that to the other rares:

CB Metals drop "a few" each HOUR!

CB Shimmers breed about every 2-3 weeks on average.

You can breed non-cb-shimmers, which tends to be a very common event.

 

Their rarity alone means that some people will be willing to keep on trying and trying, just like some people will be willing to sit in the cave refreshing and refreshing.

So what? If I can have 200 CB Metals, why shouldn't I be allowed to have 17 GoNs? Only one of those goals is actually reachable, though.

Edited May 23, 2014 by whitebaron

[Naruhina_94]

I like GoN limits because they prove that this is a supernatural dragon. It has to be summoned, so this huge act of magic would seem more simple and common if I could have an infinite number of them on my scroll.

 

I know that it would be hard to summon more than three, but the fact that I can do it means they're not so divine as I've always pictured them. There will always be a little chance to summon and hoard them if limits will be removed, it may takes decades but I could have 50 GoNs.

This seems weird to me, because it doesn't matter the time I will need to summon 50, in my opinion they shouldn't be summonable in so large quantity anyway!

 

I'm totally open to rise the limits up to 9 to allow 1 ungendered hatchie frozen, 1 gendered female hatchie and 1 gendered male hatchie + 6 adults (3 males and 3 females). This seems to be more equal, and those who will see a scroll with 9 GoNs will still be surprised and admired. They will admit the huge effort that the user made to Summon them all.

 

I think the satisfaction to have summoned all the possible GoNs on your scroll (9 on my idea) would be more pleasant that the awareness to be able to Summon infinite ones. I like goals and achievement and in this case I support the game to make an achievement not overridable.

 

If GoN CB limits would be removed I would see none reasons to not remove the Holidays limits, too, and be able to find old holidays (Yulebuck for example) as CB again in 2015.

Holiday CB dragons are bounded to their relase year. In MY opinion GoNs are bounded by their nature that is too much different from the other dragons to allow the possibily to have infinite number of them.

 

If you like so much the possibility to have a CB dragon this should applies for every dragon.

Edited May 23, 2014 by Naruhina_94

[whitebaron]

If GoN CB limits would be removed I would see none reasons to not remove the Holidays limits, too, and be able to find old holidays (Yulebuck for example) as CB again in 2015.

Holiday dragons are bounded to their relase year.

Holiday dragons can be acquired EVERY holiday.

just because you can't get any more CBs, does not mean that you have any limit. They are in no way bound to a year.

[Naruhina_94]

Holiday dragons can be acquired EVERY holiday.

just because you can't get any more CBs, does not mean that you have any limit. They are in no way bound to a year.

You're right, sorry, I've correct my previous post. I meant CB holiday dragons.

CB Holiday dragons are bounded to their year right now. This was one of the most used answer against my propose to allow new users to collect with their effort old CB holidays in the future.

If we don't need old CB holidays because a CB dragon is not more important than a lineaged one, why we need infinite number of CB GoNs? We could trade their 2nd gens, and GoN's PBs gave only rejects until now...

Edited May 23, 2014 by Naruhina_94

[KageSora]

CB holidays are limited to promote giving as many people a chance to obtain them as possible during that holiday (hence why Halloween--a holiday for greed--has unlimited CBs but Christmas and V-Day, which are more about love and giving, have caps) than some dire need to keep them magically special.

 

However, that doesn't apply to GoNs. Person A Summoning a GoN doesn't alter the chances of Person B Summoning a GoN, they're unrelated events.

[Naruhina_94]

CB holidays are limited to promote giving as many people a chance to obtain them as possible during that holiday (hence why Halloween--a holiday for greed--has unlimited CBs but Christmas and V-Day, which are more about love and giving, have caps) than some dire need to keep them magically special.

 

However, that doesn't apply to GoNs.  Person A Summoning a GoN doesn't alter the chances of Person B Summoning a GoN, they're unrelated events.

I'm sorry, probably my english isn't clear enough.

I'm not referring to the limit of 2 CB Holidays per scroll. I like it and I'm gratefull that TJ raised the limits up only for the bred ones.

 

I'm referring to the relase year: Will you be able to find a CB Yulebuck in cave in 2014 Christmas? No, you won't.

You won't be able to find it, even if you have none CB Yulebuck and this doesn't give to everybody a chance to obtain them as CBs.

Edited May 23, 2014 by Naruhina_94

[KageSora]

There's a difference, though. GoN's were never available during a limited period of time. GoN's have always been available to the very lucky, year round, since they were introduced.

 

Holidays, however, are available for a brief period during their season.

 

Additionally, you CAN get a CB of some of the holidays if you're one of the lucky few to win the raffle. Hence people getting CB Hollies even though the year of their release is long past.

[Naruhina_94]

There's a difference, though.  GoN's were never available during a limited period of time.  GoN's have always been available to the very lucky, year round, since they were introduced.

 

Holidays, however, are available for a brief period during their season.

 

Additionally, you CAN get a CB of some of the holidays if you're one of the lucky few to win the raffle.  Hence people getting CB Hollies even though the year of their release is long past.

Yes, but you can't obatin a Pumpkin, a Marrow, a Sweetling or a Valentine. 2 of my favourite dragons that I won't be able to use in my lineages because I will never have as CBs.

It seems weird that people want unlimited CBs of a supernatural dragons that have to be summoned with low chances of success from other 3 rare dragons, only 1 time per 15 days, that 4 days ago cannot even breed and was limited to 2 per scroll, but don't want to allow people to have 1 - 2 CB old holiday dragons originally relased a couple of years ago...

Holiday CB dragons that in their relase year were immensely more easy to get than a GoN.

A lot of people have them, they've caught them as CBs quite easly, but the future users that have the only "fault" to have discovered DC later won't be able to earn the same CB dragons with their efforts...

Sorry, I don't like it if I can say my opinion.

Edited May 23, 2014 by Naruhina_94

[KageSora]

I would imagine that the only real reason you can't get a CB of a non-Christmas holiday is that the raffle takes place during Christmas.

 

Since the event is initiated during the Christmas season, it could be considered that though the eggs are generated outside the standard breeding season it's still "in season" since the entirety of the event with the exception of the tallying and awarding of prizes occurs during the holiday period.

 

Therefore I fail to see how the fact that the raffle excludes dragons that would have to be created months outside of their actual breeding period for an event that also took place several months outside of their breeding period should impact the ability to Summon additional GoN's, which themselves have no "season" in which they're available.

 

Though, personally, I'd be all for more raffles or adding the other holidays to the prize lists but that'd be a suggestion for another thread.

[Naruhina_94]

Therefore I fail to see how the fact that the raffle excludes dragons that would have to be created months outside of their actual breeding period for an event that also took place several months outside of their breeding period should impact the ability to Summon additional GoN's, which themselves have no "season" in which they're available.

It's a matter of consistency. The relationship between Gon and Holiday becomes considerable when you see people asking for unlimited CB dragons that could produce only 3 other types of dragons (Avatars of Creation, Destruction and Change) but at the same time they don't want to allow people to have 2 CB old holiday dragons of undisputed value for lineages, that can breed and reproduce every other breed.

It's like asking for a herd of unicorns that can produce a limitate offsprings but at the same time refuse to have 2 normal horses that can produce as many usefull horses you need...

Edited May 23, 2014 by Naruhina_94

[KageSora]

Except for the fact that people arguing for the increase or removal of the limits on GoN's predates their usefulness as lineage dragons by over a year at least.

 

There's renewed interest in the idea, but the initial idea to have the limit increased/removed was brought up back when it was believed they'd never be able to breed ever, even like retired breeds much less producing brand new dragons.

[Naruhina_94]

Except for the fact that people arguing for the increase or removal of the limits on GoN's predates their usefulness as lineage dragons by over a year at least.

 

There's renewed interest in the idea, but the initial idea to have the limit increased/removed was brought up back when it was believed they'd never be able to breed ever, even like retired breeds much less producing brand new dragons.

This leaves me even more bewildered. Why arguing to increase the CB number of an unbreedable dragon and don't let others have 1-2 CBs of a breedable and extremis userfull one?

Does it make sense to you?

 

I want to ask: why some of you want so strongly removing limits to GoN instead of simple raising them to a reasonable number? Would it be a good compromise, wouldn't it?

Edited May 23, 2014 by Naruhina_94

[KrazyKarp]

Many people want the limit at 5: two adults, three frozen hatchlings, all nicely gendered for a full set. That's what I'd like. Of course, I wouldn't mind them being unlimited, either. At least 5 is ok with me.

[KageSora]

This leaves me even more bewildered. Why arguing to increase the CB number of an unbreedable dragon and don't let others have 1-2 CBs of a breedable and extremis userfull one?

Does it make sense to you?

 

I want to ask: why you want so strongly removing limits to GoN instead of simple raising them to a reasonable number? Would it be a good compromise, wouldn't it?

Again, there's 100% different circumstances.

 

CB holidays are released to celebrate a specific special holiday event, with new ones being released yearly to celebrate a brand-new year's event. GoN's are not, and have never been, tied to a single period of time that they are meant to be in celebration of, like the holiday dragons.

 

 

As for why I want the limit removed...

 

Who gets to decide what a "reasonable" number is?

 

For me, reasonable would be 4. Other people have argued that 5 is the most reasonable, still others 6 or 7 or more. Each one is presenting equally valid arguments as to why their number is a reasonable number to increase the cap to.

 

TJ's the one, I guess, who'd decide what was the "most" reasonable number--if any. However, you have no guarantee that he'd pick your idea of reasonable.

 

I'd rather see them without limit purely because that allows the people who want 4 to have their 4, but also the people who want 5 or 6 or 24, if they're willing to put in the time needed to get lucky with Summoning as many as they're trying to get.

Edited May 23, 2014 by KageSora

[Cinnamin Draconna]

I think you're missing something. Holiday Dragons (xmas, v'day and halloween) are more of a reward for playing during the holiday rather than a release. Meaning, if you were HERE for xmas 2013, you were able to pick up 2 cb Solstice Dragons. But you had to be HERE during the holiday to get them.

 

The GoN on the other hand is something you can try for year round. You don't have to wait for a special day, or a particular hour, you can try ANYTIME.. give or take 2 weeks for the cool down.

 

So I don't see that as a good comparison.

 

Plus all that RP junk about them being 'divine' is just silly. They're just a bunch of pixels and trying to make them 'more' than that is ridiculous. Trying to come up with an 'in character' reason to increase or remove limits isn't the issue.. the issue is trying to convince TJ to change his mind. If more folk would just say they want an increase without trying to come up with a million different reasons beyond 'we want more', we might get things done more often. It's all the stupid arguments that make things not happen, when a simple Yes, we want more Guardians of Nature would probably be enough, if enough folk just said so.

[danicast]

I think you're missing something. Holiday Dragons (xmas, v'day and halloween) are more of a reward for playing during the holiday rather than a release. Meaning, if you were HERE for xmas 2013, you were able to pick up 2 cb Solstice Dragons. But you had to be HERE during the holiday to get them.

 

The GoN on the other hand is something you can try for year round. You don't have to wait for a special day, or a particular hour, you can try ANYTIME.. give or take 2 weeks for the cool down.

 

So I don't see that as a good comparison.

 

Plus all that RP junk about them being 'divine' is just silly. They're just a bunch of pixels and trying to make them 'more' than that is ridiculous. Trying to come up with an 'in character' reason to increase or remove limits isn't the issue.. the issue is trying to convince TJ to change his mind. If more folk would just say they want an increase without trying to come up with a million different reasons beyond 'we want more', we might get things done more often. It's all the stupid arguments that make things not happen, when a simple Yes, we want more Guardians of Nature would probably be enough, if enough folk just said so.

You are forgetting and denying the whole system used at Dragoncave to create a new dragon and the whole system to request alterations such as BSAs. When someone want to suggest a new dragon is not enough to post "make me a green dragon because I want a green dragon", the person must present a whole concept, enviroment, habits, like if the dragon was a real animal and not just another draw. It's not "silly", it's part of th mechanics of how the whole site works. The same works for new BSA, you can't simply post "make mints incubate hatchlings because I want so", you must present reasonable arguments that works with the concept of that dragon.

GoNs, as all the other dragons, have a concept. It's summoned by trios, is not breedable. It can't be traded or gifted. There are reasons to be this way, it's part of the uniqueness of the concept of this dragon. Simply post "make them breedable because I want more" or "make them unlimited because I want to hoard them" is not enough argument to change the dragon concept and I doubt that TJ would change anything on GoN concept based in the argument "because I want".

[edwardelricfreak]

Cinnamin was saying that them being 'divine' is silly. I don't think she ever said the mechanics of the site were...

 

And them being divine IS silly because they are NOT divine. They are not gods. They are not divine. They're just extremely powerful dragons that are rarely seen and must be summoned. While that may seem 'divine', divinity suggest that they are gods, which they are not.