Remove GoN Breed Limits

[CNR4806]

Some of us don't RP... so using RP reasons to deny something doesn't fly with a lot of us.

RP-breaking and lore-breaking are two different issues entirely, the former is about my headcanon (e.g. GoNs are gods, dragons should get lifemates, clans, family ties, etc etc.) getting broken, which, frankly speaking, should be largely ignored when considering changes to cave mechanics.

 

Site lore is a completely different problem. Whether you RP or not, the official lore has significant influence toward cave mechanics (e.g. You can't suggest a mass-murder BSA for the whites, even if you somehow make the mass-murder BSA very useful). In this case, the GoNs were implemented as powerful beings that can only be created through summoning by legendary trio dragons. If the GoNs population can grow by simply breeding, why should anyone be bothering with the extremely-difficult summoning part?

 

Sometimes deviations are necessary for gameplay reasons (e.g. extreme time compression for dragon growth because we don't have millennia of lifetime to wait for that in real time, which in turns implies that the scrollkeepers are ageless in-universe). But in most cases, trying to keep the Fridge Logic at the minimum is the best course of action, especially considering that TJ seems to be planning to expand the site lore with the upcoming encyclopedia feature.

Edited May 22, 2014 by CNR4806

[DragonLady86]

RP-breaking and lore-breaking are two different issues entirely, the former is about my headcanon (e.g. GoNs are gods, dragons should get lifemates, clans, family ties, etc etc.) getting broken, which, frankly speaking, should be largely ignored when considering changes to cave mechanics.

 

Site lore is a completely different problem. Whether you RP or not, the official lore has significant influence toward cave mechanics (e.g. You can't suggest a mass-murder BSA for the whites, even if you somehow make the mass-murder BSA very useful). In this case, the GoNs were implemented as powerful beings that can only be created through summoning by legendary trio dragons. If the GoNs population can grow by simply breeding, why should anyone be bothering with the extremely-difficult summoning part?

 

Sometimes deviations are necessary for gameplay reasons (e.g. extreme time compression for dragon growth because we don't have millennia of lifetime to wait for that in real time, which in turns implies that the scrollkeepers are ageless in-universe). But in most cases, trying to keep the Fridge Logic at the minimum is the best course of action, especially considering that TJ seems to be planning to expand the site lore with the upcoming encyclopedia feature.

I think that summons up my non-rp reasons for not wanting them to breed true. I don't like summoning, but breeding fails are not nearly as discouraging, for one, I don't have to wait as long to try again, and I still might get something. So why would I bother with summoning if I could breed them.

 

Except GoN's are meant to be summoned. They were never intended to breed at all, let alone more of their own kind. It defeats the entire purpose of their creation/existence.

 

Also, you think people are complaining now? Can you imagine the drama if they suddenly became breed-able? "I tried for X years to get mine and had all that frustration, but now newer people can just breed them? /rage" Please, just no.

[GhostMouse]

I support removing the limits. If I understand correctly, GoN's don't work according to ratios the way other dragons do, so one person having more doesn't prevent someone else from getting them.

 

I don't think they should be able to breed more GoN's, however.

[Kovia]

If they stay un-tradable and unable to breed more GoNs, I guess raising or flat-out removing the breed limit would work. As it is people are going to be lineage-swapping the hybrids like crazy.

However, I think the summon success rate should stay low if the limit is removed. Otherwise we'll end up with people with a hundred GoNs when they're supposed to be really powerful and super rare in nature.

[DragonLady86]

If they stay un-tradable and unable to breed more GoNs, I guess raising or flat-out removing the breed limit would work. As it is people are going to be lineage-swapping the hybrids like crazy.

However, I think the summon success rate should stay low if the limit is removed. Otherwise we'll end up with people with a hundred GoNs when they're supposed to be really powerful and super rare in nature.

I can live with keeping the low chances even if unlimited. that means my limits are based on how much I want to mess with it. which is about the same for anything not a prize.

[Obscure_Trash]

Since the circumstances are basically the same - we're still limited, although it's 3 not 2 now - I just went ahead and merged. ADP since you were the original OP, you can update the first post however if you feel it needs done/your new post had different information that you want in the first post.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Since the circumstances are basically the same - we're still limited, although it's 3 not 2 now - I just went ahead and merged. ADP since you were the original OP, you can update the first post however if you feel it needs done/your new post had different information that you want in the first post.

Thanks Sock! I thought there was another topic but couldn't find it ;A;

[Kojayo]

It's kind of like being able to get an army of free golds with highly rare offspring. Especially if the summoning was raised for each complete trio.

 

Idk, I like the limit. Maybe boosting it a little, but not completely removing it.

[DragonLady86]

It's kind of like being able to get an army of free golds with highly rare offspring. Especially if the summoning was raised for each complete trio.

 

Idk, I like the limit. Maybe boosting it a little, but not completely removing it.

It's not free, it takes a lot of work to get 1 GoN unless one is insanely lucky. Gold are far, far easier to get. Heck, CB golds of which I've seen a whole 1 in cave for the entire five years I've been here, are far easier to get than GoN's.

 

And while there is a boost for each trio set, trios are rare as well, and will be in much higher demand for awhile because of this new release so not really that easy to get either.

 

What real purpose does the limit have other than limiting how many avatars we can breed at a time?

[edwardelricfreak]

If trios could be made more common and limits either raised again or lifted entirely, I think it would REALLY help. :c I LOVE that the limits were raised, though it's only to three but whatever I guess. But just removing limits completely really won't help because then trios will be needed more than ever for filling scroll goals or whatever else and that's just messy...

 

I like trios being rare and GoNs hard to get, but, idk...

[DragonLady86]

I have 3 trio sets, and that's only because I managed to have one of each not gender quick enough to freeze (back when the change was made so that hatchlings no longer gendered after freezing I had a lot of trouble with that) I never wanted the third set, but I don't believe in abandoning dragons I put the work into raising. I certainly have no intention of obtaining more Trios, even if I would like to have a minimum of 5 GoN eventually.

 

I suppose I could be the exception, but I don't really feel that many people will suddenly think they need lots and lots more just because of higher limits.

 

Yes, they will be in high demand at least for awhile because newer members and those that never bothered with summoning before will want to collect some for their summons, but I don't think raising the limits will change that much.

[Dimar]

I think the distinction between headcanon and site lore is important. There's a big difference between what one's personal scroll beliefs are and what actually makes sense in the site. Even if one doesn't roleplay, or if the personal headcanon conflicts, what makes sense in the context of the site's world still matters.

 

In my personal opinion... definitely "no" to breeding true. They're intended to be created by Summoning and are a very particular/special type of dragon because of that. As for the suggestion of GoN limits: I'd settle for a compromise of 5 or whatever, but certainly not unlimited. (Basically, breeding them to make hybrids already took them OOC... don't make them even more against their original concept.)

[noxlyx]

Didn't TJ increase the chances of us summoning a GoN with this release?

 

Anyways, I'm a huge no for removing Breed Limits. The limit has already been up to three which kinda makes sense since we have three new babies to play with. I just dislike the fact that three is such an odd number.

 

But what's the point of removing Breed Limits aside from freezing purposes? To try and get more the new babies? To simply horde these dragons? Canonically in DC, being able to summon a GoN is suppose to be a rare and wondrous event. Raising the limit takes away that wonder because now you have a herd of GoNs rather than one, two or three GoNs that you can cherish.

 

I like the idea of GoNs being the only type of dragon that has a breed limit.

[DragonLady86]

Didn't TJ increase the chances of us summoning a GoN with this release?

 

Anyways, I'm a huge no for removing Breed Limits. The limit has already been up to three which kinda makes sense since we have three new babies to play with. I just dislike the fact that three is such an odd number.

 

But what's the point of removing Breed Limits aside from freezing purposes? To try and get more the new babies? To simply horde these dragons? Canonically in DC, being able to summon a GoN is suppose to be a rare and wondrous event. Raising the limit takes away that wonder because now you have a herd of GoNs rather than one, two or three GoNs that you can cherish.

 

I like the idea of GoNs being the only type of dragon that has a breed limit.

Yes he did increase the chance of summoning. No, that isn't what this thread is asking for. Please read some of the replies.

 

What's the point of having only one dragon with breed limits? Particularly one that now breeds three hybrids? No one is asking for them to be easier to get, just to be allowed to try for as many as that person wants.

 

With some people having summoned faithfully since they were introduced four years ago and still not having even 1, they are not likely to be come common. And this dragon does not have "ratios" the GoN's on my scroll do not effect your chances of summoning. So there really isn't a reason to have a limit. Though I would settle for just raising a little more. (5 being the general consensus)

 

Also, there is no such thing as "hoarding" in this game. If I want to collect a 100 of a dragon, even if it is super-rare, I can. Except this one. Why?

[noxlyx]

Yes he did increase the chance of summoning. No, that isn't what this thread is asking for. Please read some of the replies.

 

What's the point of having only one dragon with breed limits? Particularly one that now breeds three hybrids? No one is asking for them to be easier to get, just to be allowed to try for as many as that person wants.

 

With some people having summoned faithfully since they were introduced four years ago and still not having even 1, they are not likely to be come common. And this dragon does not have "ratios" the GoN's on my scroll do not effect your chances of summoning. So there really isn't a reason to have a limit. Though I would settle for just raising a little more. (5 being the general consensus)

 

Also, there is no such thing as "hoarding" in this game. If I want to collect a 100 of a dragon, even if it is super-rare, I can. Except this one. Why?

Because I'm pretty sure story-wise there is something canonically attached to the reason why this dragon is the only dragon with a breed limit.

 

We all know everything TJ does, he'll think it through what's lore-canon first. He'll debate, argue, toss the idea around, and bat it a few times but he will always circle back to "Will this fit with the lore I have created for this site?" even if we don't outright roleplay that lore.

 

Rarity aside, from a story perspective: having 100 GoN's brings down the sentimental value of them. These dragons are meant to be special and treasured. Even the way TJ described the reason why we can't trade these dragons or abandon them has sentimental feel to it when he stated that:

 

"They're meant for you. They aren't meant for your friend, when you summon an egg, it's yours."

 

No one knows TJ's reason why he has the limit but I'm just trying to tease out the reason why from the way he has treated these dragons before. And from a story perspective, I have to agree with having a limit on them.

 

Yes, hording dragons is a part of this game but there is still the hidden lore to consider.

[KageSora]

If the GoNs population can grow by simply breeding, why should anyone be bothering with the extremely-difficult summoning part?

If possible, have the chance to breed a GoN from a GoN x GoN pair equal to that of the base chance of Summoning.

 

Therefore for each additional Trio set, using Summon actually gives a better chance to obtain a GoN than relying on breeding.

 

Or have it at less than the base chance of Summoning successfully--that means that Summon is always the preferred method from a statistical standpoint and the breeding option would be used purely for lineage creation or very specific scroll goals.

 

Heck, tie breeding with other GoNs to Summon. If you use Summon or breed a GoN with another GoN, then you can't use either action until the one you used is recharged. And prevent GoN X GoN breeding unless you're unlocked, just like Summon. Which would have to be done--or at least set it so that success rates are 0% if you're locked--since the eggs are scroll-locked and can't be traded thus they can't be booted to the AP, I'd imagine.

 

 

Personally, I don't care if they breed true or not. I could see reasoning for it--if they're willing to lower themselves to breed with lesser beings to create demigods, why would they refuse to breed with equals to create new gods?--but it's not a big deal to me. It'd be nice, and could make for some pretty lineages.

 

 

I do, however, want the limit upped. 4 at the minimum, 5 is better, but unlimited would be great. Since it's not like we'll ever be able to have a massive army of them unless you have the most incredible luck ever (in which case why are you playing DC and not buying every lottery ticket you can?!), I don't see the increases hurting the idea of them being rare too much.

 

If you wanted to limit it, you could have a "Summon increases with Trio sets until you have X GoNs, after you have X Summon has a set success rate which is lower than the initial base success rate when you have one Trio set" thing. That way you can have better odds to get to a certain number, and while it becomes harder (thus preserving their rarity) it does not become impossible to continue past the "limit" in place.

[Fiona]

Because I'm pretty sure story-wise there is something canonically attached to the reason why this dragon is the only dragon with a breed limit.

But when the GoN were released they were not the only dragon with a limit. In fact, limits on the holiday dragons were first. Those were put in place to encourage the holiday spirit of sharing the dragons, but that proved to be a flawed idea. Now, with the changes made to the game we can have as many of the holiday dragons as we want, except we can only have two cb.

 

Yes, there is lore connected to the GoN. I don't believe it applies to the limits. Also, with changes to the mechanics of the GoN the limits make less sense from a game mechanic viewpoint. The lore has already changed with the introduction of the avatars.

[edwardelricfreak]

Rarity aside, from a story perspective: having 100 GoN's brings down the sentimental value of them. These dragons are meant to be special and treasured. Even the way TJ described the reason why we can't trade these dragons or abandon them has sentimental feel to it when he stated that:

 

"They're meant for you. They aren't meant for your friend, when you summon an egg, it's yours."

Then why have a limit? If they're meant for us, why put a limit on us? Since we can't trade or abandon them anyway (which is something that could and still can be done with holidays, even though they had limits, too), what harm is there in letting us have as many as we want on our scrolls since they are meant for us?

 

Besides, stuff changes. Just now we had the limit on GoNs raised by one. Personally that doesn't fly with my scroll goals, as I want at least 5 (one S1, two S2s of each gender, and 2 adults of each gender) but I can only have 3 for now (and I probably won't have all three be adults if I manage to summon them at all ever).

 

I just don't think that the "meant for us" thing is validation for having only 3 (or 2, previously). Pretty sure that was only because we were not allowed to abandon or release them. To be fair I'm also pretty sure we can't do that with Zombies, actually, and only recently we were given the option to Expunge them. It would be nice if we can at least get as many GoNs as we want and have something like "Dismiss" for getting rid of them. It doesn't abandon or release them, but remove them entirely like a Zombie when Expunged.

[whitebaron]

I hate it when peope justify game mechanic stuff with made-up RP reasons. Nothing in the curent lore makes GONs limited to certain numbers. For every reason one invents to justify the ends via RP, a similar strong counter could be produced. Thats within the nature of rp

 

Just because some of us (like me) dont care about RP in DC does not mean we could not do it, but really? Basing gameplay decisions on individual RP preferences is futile. Look what works for the game, then adjust the lore - not the other way round.

[edwardelricfreak]

While rp ≠ lore, it is much better to change lore to fit the game and game mechanics than trying to fit the game to the lore. I'd rather something be lore-breaking than game-breaking.

[CNR4806]

If possible, have the chance to breed a GoN from a GoN x GoN pair equal to that of the base chance of Summoning.

 

Therefore for each additional Trio set, using Summon actually gives a better chance to obtain a GoN than relying on breeding.

 

Or have it at less than the base chance of Summoning successfully--that means that Summon is always the preferred method from a statistical standpoint and the breeding option would be used purely for lineage creation or very specific scroll goals.

 

Heck, tie breeding with other GoNs to Summon.  If you use Summon or breed a GoN with another GoN, then you can't use either action until the one you used is recharged.  And prevent GoN X GoN breeding unless you're unlocked, just like Summon.  Which would have to be done--or at least set it so that success rates are 0% if you're locked--since the eggs are scroll-locked and can't be traded thus they can't be booted to the AP, I'd imagine.

 

Personally, I don't care if they breed true or not.  I could see reasoning for it--if they're willing to lower themselves to breed with lesser beings to create demigods, why would they refuse to breed with equals to create new gods?--but it's not a big deal to me.  It'd be nice, and could make for some pretty lineages.

The problem with the idea of GoNs breeding true is not whether summoning has a better success chance, it is the lack of need to do it, or at least diluting the necessity of summoning by a considerable margin.

 

GoNs were introduced as summons, and are special for the facts that they are created in a different and unique way, and that they're the only kind of dragon that truly lacks (biological) ancestry (barring CB prize dragons), as even CBs from the biomes are not parent-less from the lore standpoint ("You don't want to disturb the dragons, but some of the eggs are far enough away that you could steal one.").

 

And, in any case, if they are capable of reproduction of their own kind, they ought to be a lot less rare than what their descriptions hype them up to be. Remember, while the original gene pool might be small and breeding might be hard, the amount of these ageless, stupidly-powerful (ie. very unlikely to die) dragons available for reproduction skyrockets as the amount of generations rise, making successful reproduction on the broad scale (ie. the whole GoN breed) easier.

 

By having them breed true, you're not only breaking lore, but also stripping away quite a lot of what's left of their unique attributes and by extension, sentimental value.

 

While rp ≠ lore, it is much better to change lore to fit the game and game mechanics than trying to fit the game to the lore. I'd rather something be lore-breaking than game-breaking.

True.

 

But is the current issue we're discussing facing this dilemma (ie. does not upping the limit/allowing GoNs to breed true break the site)? I myself do not think so.

 

That said, I'm not agaisnt upping/removing the limit from the basis of lore. I have more issues with the ability to eventually amass an army of the things, rendering the entire premise of their introduction as a special super-duper-mega rare breed moot.

 

==================================================

 

EDIT: I just so happened to have re-read the original GoN-breeding suggestion thread (which I still have no idea why it, of all things, gets implemented despite the very mixed feedback), and GoNs breeding true was nixed by the man himself.

 

Well I've already nixed the possibility of GoN offspring.

 

The remaining possibilities are are a new sub-GoN breed, or holiday-like breeding.

Edited May 22, 2014 by CNR4806

[noxlyx]

The reason why I bring up rp/canon/TJ's lore is because I've sat in forums where TJ actively debates the mechanics of the lore itself. By debate, I mean literally down to the durability of a magical piece of paper and whether or not it makes sense to have that piece of magical paper be used once then thrown away. Let me repeat that: a piece of paper.

 

I have more issues with the ability to eventually amass an army of the things, rendering the entire premise of their introduction as a special super-duper-mega rare breed moot.

 

I really wouldn't worry too much about these "super duper rare" breeds. As people said before it's rare enough to get a GoN. Don't think these babies will be as rare as a super low-gen prizekin, or I could be wrong.

 

And I'm against removing breed limits because I'm in the unpopular opinion that having a limit cap on them makes them more interesting. However, I wouldn't be surprised if in the far future the limit does move up. But since it already has moved up to three, it's not going to change any time soon.

[KageSora]

The problem with the idea of GoNs breeding true is not whether summoning has a better success chance, it is the lack of need to do it, or at least diluting the necessity of summoning by a considerable margin.

 

GoNs were introduced as summons, and are special for the facts that they are created in a different and unique way, and that they're the only kind of dragon that truly lacks (biological) ancestry (barring CB prize dragons), as even CBs from the biomes are not parent-less from the lore standpoint ("You don't want to disturb the dragons, but some of the eggs are far enough away that you could steal one.").

 

And, in any case, if they are capable of reproduction of their own kind, they ought to be a lot less rare than what their descriptions hype them up to be. Remember, while the original gene pool might be small and breeding might be hard, the amount of these ageless, stupidly-powerful (ie. very unlikely to die) dragons available for reproduction skyrockets as the amount of generations rise, making successful reproduction on the broad scale (ie. the whole GoN breed) easier.

 

By having them breed true, you're not only breaking lore, but also stripping away quite a lot of what's left of their unique attributes and by extension, sentimental value.

That could be handled based on how GoNs exist, really.

 

Do they exist as a simple force of nature that is solidified and bound into a living creature when the egg is summoned? Are forces of nature combined and infused with the spark of life, with a soul, upon the egg being summoned?

 

Or do GoN's dwell in some other world, and the eggs are summoned to DC from this ream of gods?

 

If it's the former sort of idea, would it not be possible that, once bound into a living form, they'd have the capacity to desire to experience all of the things a living body might offer--including reproduction of their own kind?

 

If it's the latter, then they clearly have offspring in their own little realm of the gods. So why not in this world, since once here they'll never be able to go back? Even when released they would exist in the wilderness, rather than vanishing.

 

I... Also never actually see them actually SKYROCKETING, simply because of the sheer difficulty in obtaining them at all.

 

And lore can be changed, it happens all the times. It's sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse. They've already changed--no longer are they unbreedable, but they're now willing to mingle with lesser dragons and to share their power with offspring to create demigod dragons.

 

I just so happened to have re-read the original GoN-breeding suggestion thread (which I still have no idea why it, of all things, gets implemented despite the very mixed feedback), and GoNs breeding true was nixed by the man himself.

 

As for what TJ said... TJ's changed his mind in the past. If TJ re-confirms that he's not willing to entertain the idea at this time, that's one thing. Until then, however, I don't think "he said this last year" is a reason the idea should be totally dropped.

[edwardelricfreak]

True.

 

But is the current issue we're discussing facing this dilemma (ie. does not upping the limit/allowing GoNs to breed true break the site)? I myself do not think so.

 

That said, I'm not agaisnt upping/removing the limit from the basis of lore. I have more issues with the ability to eventually amass an army of the things, rendering the entire premise of their introduction as a special super-duper-mega rare breed moot.

wat? I was replying to a post that ended up getting deleted, but felt like posting anyway because I was just backing up what whitebaron said.

 

I don't think it would break the game either (having limits removed/raised even higher). I'd rather they didn't breed true, just because I like summoning be the way to get them (unless breeding true only happens from pure breeding the GoNs and is about as likely/less likely or something than actually summoning, I guess?).

 

As far as lore goes (not like personal RP lore but like actual game lore) I think it has something to do with super-ultra-powerful beings gracing your humble abode with their presence. Not that they're super pompous, but they're extremely powerful and you brought them in from wherever the heck they came from. Probably an island cave surrounded by whirlpools. :U

 

aaaaanyway, I'd like to see the limit upped some, at the very least to 5, only so we can have like one adult per Avatar and then an S1 and S2 (or uh, one S1, two S2s for each gender, and two adults for each gender). 5 just makes sense. 3 seems like it's a little expected to have one adult per Avatar, or at least one S1, one S2, and one adult, or even adults of both genders and one hatchling.

 

Ultimately, I'd like to see limits totally gone. It's not like it's easy getting GoNs anyway, since a user has to get all their GoNs themselves, so I doubt anyone will even get close to a huge army of GoNs. But it would be nice to try, right?

 

 

 

EDIT: Oh also Kage, GoNs aren't gods at all. Pretty sure even TJ said that. Yeah they're powerful but they aren't gods. Probably just a sort of analogy you were using, but still.

Edited May 22, 2014 by edwardelricfreak

[MissNoShame]

I would have to side with noxlyx and the whole "I like the limits because it makes things interesting" stance.

Although, I'm not about to complain either way. TJ does what TJ does and what TJ does is usually epic in a TJ way, is it not?

If these were to become unlimited at some point I would actually like for the success rate to summon to go back to where it was originally (speaking as someone who doesn't ever summon jack-squat) to keep things interesting...

Although I'm perfectly fine with the 3 limit.

1 GoN to breed with a dragon to produce Avatar of Change

1 GoN to breed with a dragon to produce Avatar of Creation

1 GoN to breed with a dragon to produce Avatar of Destruction

 

But, I'm also someone who is currently not interested in the whole thing of having a frozen hatchie of every stage / gender and then the adults.

 

Again, I'd like for things to stay interesting with GoNs because that's one reason that made me want one so bad anyways. I was never particularly fond of the sprite itself (Although I'm liking the updates they did a bit more) and since it couldn't do anything until now except sit on your scroll it brought a sense of...oh..I don't know.... Accomplishment? While some people would argue that since it's so hard to summon GoNs anyways, every summon would be an accomplishment regardless of the cap - which is true - but for me there would also be a feeling of accomplishment in summoning all of the GoNs that were possible to summon.

If the limits were raised more or even completely taken away then I'd at least like for there to be some kind of...compromise? Maybe that's not the right word. But I don't want to lose that sense of accomplishment.

 

Not even sure if my opinion made any sense, and I started rambling at a point.

Thank you 2am.