Remove GoN Breed Limits

[danicast]

Cinnamin was saying that them being 'divine' is silly. I don't think she ever said the mechanics of the site were...

 

And them being divine IS silly because they are NOT divine. They are not gods. They are not divine. They're just extremely powerful dragons that are rarely seen and must be summoned. While that may seem 'divine', divinity suggest that they are gods, which they are not.

I think you need to re-read what Cinnamin wrote:

 

Plus all that RP junk about them being 'divine' is just silly. They're just a bunch of pixels and trying to make them 'more' than that is ridiculous. Trying to come up with an 'in character' reason to increase or remove limits isn't the issue.. the issue is trying to convince TJ to change his mind. If more folk would just say they want an increase without trying to come up with a million different reasons beyond 'we want more', we might get things done more often. It's all the stupid arguments that make things not happen, when a simple Yes, we want more Guardians of Nature would probably be enough, if enough folk just said so.

 

 

[whitebaron]

I think you need to re-read what Cinnamin wrote:

 

and i think, you should back up that divinity theory with facts.

because else, its just a user's opinion, nothing more.

 

as long as there is no encyclopedia, we won't ever be able to say so...

[edwardelricfreak]

I think you need to re-read what Cinnamin wrote:

There is nothing there suggesting she said that the mechanics were silly, only the divine part.

 

She also said that wasn't the issue, which it isn't. We need to convince TJ of the reasons for and against removing the limits, without delving into "they're divine" or "the description says they're rare".

[danicast]

There is nothing there suggesting she said that the mechanics were silly, only the divine part.

 

She also said that wasn't the issue, which it isn't. We need to convince TJ of the reasons for and against removing the limits, without delving into "they're divine" or "the description says they're rare".

I think she made her point clear when she said "all that RP junk about them being 'divine' is just silly"... she considers that the dragon concept is a "rp junk", she consider that the whole concept is silly.

 

I don't think that goes accord with how the whole Dragon Cave works.

 

And about the dragon itself, check the wikia for more information.

http://dragcave.wikia.com/wiki/Guardian_of_Nature

 

 

edit: plus, correct me if I'm wrong but I think we need to have the spriters approval to have any change in the dragon implemented. I would like very much to hear what the spriters have to say about this discussion.

Edited May 23, 2014 by danicast

[whitebaron]

The wikia says NOTHING about them being divine, though. Thats made-up by users, I guess. So this is still nowhere backed up.

 

That aside, I totally agree with cinnamon that much users do/write about lore is just junk. Not because I dont like RP (oh, how I do like RP - have my 25th anniversary this year) but because they reinvent it based on their own interpretation. Thats the most irritating thing you can do - bringing your own canon into a general discussion.

[edwardelricfreak]

I think she made her point clear when she said "all that RP junk about them being 'divine' is just silly"... she considers that the dragon concept is a "rp junk", she consider that the whole concept is silly.

GoNs AREN'T divine, though. TJ has even said this. I'd have to dig for the post, but I believe it's in this thread. Lemme just find it...

 

Aha!

 

http://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showt...dpost&p=7910541

I think conceptually, the god thing is mostly folklore that results from them being rarely seen. They aren't really gods, just a rather unique (and powerful) breed.

 

That was the part she said was junk.

 

As far as other RP/lore stuff...at least for canon lore, while it should have some influence on a breed's mechanics, I DON'T think it should define and restrict everything about a breed. It's really up for the creators to decide. In this case, it has been said that GoNs AREN'T divine beings (aka gods), so that shouldn't be a deciding factor.

[Cinnamin Draconna]

I've been RPing since 1975.. longer than some of you have been alive. I was playing AD&D when it was still called Chainmail and I've been part of a group where Gary Gygax himself was the DM.. and I survived one of his 'killer' dungeons. So don't say I think RPing is silly.

 

What I think is silly is all the wild ideas and stupidity that comes up EVERY TIME someone wants to change a dragon or make changes to the game. While the spriters may have some control over it.. which i also disagree with, but that is for another thread.. TJ is the final arbiter. And changing TJ's mind is the issue. All the speculation and arguements just get in the way of the main issue.. changing TJ's mind about the limits.

[Obscure_Trash]

edit: plus, correct me if I'm wrong but I think we need to have the spriters approval to have any change in the dragon implemented. I would like very much to hear what the spriters have to say about this discussion.

((This isn't anything anyone is focusing on, but I just wanted to pop in and say: I once closed the suggestion to have GoN's breedable since that was the spriter's wishes originally, but TJ let everyone know he was actually open to the idea and it was wrong of me to shut that discussion down. So I would focus on your own reasons as to why you do/not want this suggestion and let TJ worry about stuff like concept permissions. Plus, Momo has long been inactive, so we cant' get her opinion anyway, but just become one spriter is gone doesn't mean we should stifle evolution or change of a concept/dragon if it's wanted - that's why we now have the artist agreement in place now. ^^))

[Aniusia483]

*unless*

 

You had to summon the ability to breed - you could have that as a choice when you go to summon.

 

"Do you want to "try for" (need better word here) a dragon by breeding your Guardian of Nature or by summoning an egg ?" with the same cooldown for both methods - i.e. your GoN couldn't breed again, even with a common, till the full two weeks for summoning were up.

 

That would keep the specialness of having to use summon to get one, but would allow those who want PBs SO much to try for them and get furious every two weeks, just like those with no GoN at all after x years... Frustration for all - fairness. PB GoNs without spoiling their specialness - check.

I'm completely FOR ANYTHING that would make it anyhow possible to get 3 PB GoN frozens with their GoN parents in their lineages... a true happy family. It doesn't matter it will take years of attempts as long as it's possible to be done.

So I support your idea with my whole heart!

[KageSora]

I agree that the idea of letting the RP stuff get in the way all the time is silly.

 

The way I see it, we make it known we want a change. After the idea is either shot down or told that it's something that will be considered, THEN we can think of finding a way to make it work with the RP or lore or figuring out what alterations are needed, IF TJ wants US to do that.

 

If TJ says, "Okay, I'm open to that. Find a way to explain how it works in-world" then we can worry about that.

 

Or we can suggest RP reasons why, if we want, but I see no reason why not having an RP reason right off the bat needs to be a reason to argue against a suggestion.

 

 

Especially since in many games there's a separation of game and story mechanics. If something makes more sense gameplay wise, then that is either separate from the "story" (in this case the lore, or RP reasons). If possible it's worked around, but sometimes it's just that--something is limited or doesn't quite line up PURELY because of gameplay reasons.

 

 

 

If you're working on making a new breed, then yes, you'll need to have some sort of lore behind it--because you're creating the thing. A BSA sort of falls under that, since it has to work or appropriately alter the existing concept.

 

However, altering the limits on a dragon feel less like you're creating something new or making huge changes to an existing concept and more like you're doing some tweaking to the existing mechanics.

[CNR4806]

This. I'm not that concerned about upping the number you can have, especially considering that they are ultra hard to get - but I would not like them to lose the specialness of being summon-only. So please let them not be able to breed true.

 

*unless*

 

You had to summon the ability to breed - you could have that as a choice when you go to summon.

 

"Do you want to "try for" (need better word here) a dragon by breeding your Guardian of Nature or by summoning an egg ?" with the same cooldown for both methods - i.e. your GoN couldn't breed again, even with a common, till the full two weeks for summoning were up.

 

That would keep the specialness of having to use summon to get one, but would allow those who want PBs SO much to try for them and get furious every two weeks, just like those with no GoN at all after x years... Frustration for all - fairness. PB GoNs without spoiling their specialness - check.

Your alternative suggestion is still opening up the possibility of non-summon GoNs.

 

Perhaps I haven't stated my point clear enough. As far as the uniqueness aspect of GoNs being summon-only goes, whatever mechanics you're suggesting for the non-summon method simply does not matter. The main problem is that you are trying to introduce non-summon methods to obtain GoN.

 

To put it even more simple, your "alternative" suggestion is just adding another layer of difficulty for GoNs to breed true. It does not change the fact that you're trying to make GoNs breed true, which is what I'm against.

 

 

... And IMO this entire PB GoN business is getting really off-topic for the scope of this thread, which is about GoN breed limits.

Edited May 24, 2014 by CNR4806

[danicast]

Your alternative suggestion is still opening up the possibility of non-summon GoNs.

 

Perhaps I haven't stated my point clear enough. As far as the uniqueness aspect of GoNs being summon-only goes, whatever mechanics you're suggesting for the non-summon method simply does not matter. The main problem is that you are trying to introduce non-summon methods to obtain GoN.

 

To put it even more simple, your "alternative" suggestion is just adding another layer of difficulty for GoNs to breed true. It does not change the fact that you're trying to make GoNs breed true, which is what I'm against.

 

 

... And IMO this entire PB GoN business is getting really off-topic for the scope of this thread, which is about GoN breed limits.

I agree. What makes GoNs special is the fact that they can not be obtained through breeding, just through summon. This should not change, no matter what.

[nlechoppa]

PB GONs will never happen and you have to deal with that. Besides this is about breed limits not breeding PB GONs.

[KageSora]

PB GONs will never happen and you have to deal with that. Besides this is about breed limits not breeding PB GONs.

At one point that very thing was said about the holiday limit being raised, or the GoN limit being raised (yet now it's at three), or people have held that belief when it comes to GoNs breeding at ALL and yet the Avatars are here now.

 

Unless TJ says it's not happening at this point in time, there's really no reason to say it's never going to happen ever.

[edwardelricfreak]

I like that idea of PB GoN breeding through two GoNs "summoning" a baby or whatever was suggested. That way it's still summoning. But I don't think it's necessary.

 

It IS related to the topic at hand, though, as it was suggested as an alternative (or even to compliment) raised/no limits for GoNs.

[Fuzzbucket]

Your alternative suggestion is still opening up the possibility of non-summon GoNs.

 

Perhaps I haven't stated my point clear enough. As far as the uniqueness aspect of GoNs being summon-only goes, whatever mechanics you're suggesting for the non-summon method simply does not matter. The main problem is that you are trying to introduce non-summon methods to obtain GoN.

 

To put it even more simple, your "alternative" suggestion is just adding another layer of difficulty for GoNs to breed true. It does not change the fact that you're trying to make GoNs breed true, which is what I'm against.

 

 

... And IMO this entire PB GoN business is getting really off-topic for the scope of this thread, which is about GoN breed limits.

It would be a summon, just a summon that in effect requires two GoNs as well as three legendaries. So even HARDER

 

I don't actually want them to breed true, myself; I was just suggesting it as an option if people really want them to, so that they remain very special indeed.

 

It isn't entirely OT, if that is one of the ways people want to get more, because they don't want to have to summon - and I think summoning should be the only way - my suggestion, being even harder to do, and tying up both your GoNs and all your legendaries for two weeks, would be a compromise of sorts.

Edited May 24, 2014 by fuzzbucket

[danicast]

It would be a summon, just a summon that in effect requires two GoNs as well as three legendaries. So even HARDER

 

I don't actually want them to breed true, myself; I was just suggesting it as an option if people really want them to, so that they remain very special indeed.

 

It isn't entirely OT, if that is one of the ways people want to get more, because they don't want to have to summon - and I think summoning should be the only way - my suggestion, being even harder to do, and tying up both your GoNs and all your legendaries for two weeks, would be a compromise of sorts.

No, I don't like the idea of the summon be different for each GoN. I think the summmon must remain as it is, no matter which Gon is being summoned, the first, the second or the third.

[KageSora]

No, I don't like the idea of the summon be different for each GoN. I think the summmon must remain as it is, no matter which Gon is being summoned, the first, the second or the third.

I think the idea behind it wasn't to force people to have a different type of Summon, but to allow something for people who want to breed GoN's to have baby GoN's--letting them have a special sort of "summon" that would list the pair of GoN as the parents or something without it being the same kind of "breeding".

 

Not something that would alter the summon for a standard GoN.

[Fuzzbucket]

I think the idea behind it wasn't to force people to have a different type of Summon, but to allow something for people who want to breed GoN's to have baby GoN's--letting them have a special sort of "summon" that would list the pair of GoN as the parents or something without it being the same kind of "breeding".

 

Not something that would alter the summon for a standard GoN.

Exactly. You couldn't even DO it if you didn't already have two, or it wouldn't be PB.

[danicast]

I think the idea behind it wasn't to force people to have a different type of Summon, but to allow something for people who want to breed GoN's to have baby GoN's--letting them have a special sort of "summon" that would list the pair of GoN as the parents or something without it being the same kind of "breeding".

 

Not something that would alter the summon for a standard GoN.

Still, it would like a breeding, with lineages and stuff. GoNs don't have lineages, they appear as CB. I think they should keep this characteristic, it's one of the things that makes them unique. If you check TJ's avatars you would see that they don't have lineages too.

Edited May 24, 2014 by danicast

[KageSora]

Still, it would like a breeding, with lineages and stuff. GoNs don't have lineages, they appear as CB. I think they should keep this characteristic, it's one of the things that makes them unique and it's important to the avatar lineages.

I really fail to see how it's important to the Avatar lineages. I mean, if you want an avatar that's got CB GoN parents, just breed CB ones.

 

And, really, I feel like the important special characteristic of the GoN's is that the CB's are summoned instead of being found in the biomes like every other CB (outside of raffle prizes).

 

I mean, they're not even unique in that you can't have PB offspring. Look at the holiday dragons that have one sex. For non-holiday examples the Bright Pinks were like that back in the day before they were retired. The Purples, too, before the male was added. Those were normal dragons you could catch in the cave that, at the time, were unable to make PB babies.

 

If some other concept is released that's a one-sex concept (unless it's a hermaphrodite) you won't be able to get PBs of that, either.

 

You can't get PB babies of hybrids, either, because of their nature as hybrids.

 

So... Yeah, not breeding PB babies doesn't really make them unique.

 

As for other dragons that don't have lineages... Any unbreedable doesn't have anything to do with lineages. GoN's used to be just another unbreedable in that category until the Avatars were released. So they weren't even unique in that respect.

 

 

If you check TJ's avatars you would see that they don't have lineages too.

...That's just standard for his stuff. His hybrids don't have lineages. It's not some special thing with the Avatars. His Hellhorses don't have lineages, does that somehow make them just as special as the Avatars because they're hybrids that lack a lineage?

Edited May 24, 2014 by KageSora

[Fuzzbucket]

Still, it would like a breeding, with lineages and stuff. GoNs don't have lineages, they appear as CB. I think they should keep this characteristic, it's one of the things that makes them unique. If you check TJ's avatars you would see that they don't have lineages too.

Well - I imagine that was so we couldn't see the elemental attributes till they grow up ? They may develop lineages later - who knows. After all - everyone else's avatars have lineages.

I really fail to see how it's important to the Avatar lineages. I mean, if you want an avatar that's got CB GoN parents, just breed CB ones.

 

Pardon ? How can you...

 

Oh wait - got you ONE CB GoN parent - OK !

Edited May 24, 2014 by fuzzbucket

[KageSora]

Pardon ? How can you...   

 

Oh wait - got you ONE CB GoN parent - OK !

Yeah, that's what I meant! If you want an Avatar with CB GoN parents, just breed a CB GoN.

 

I mean, as it is, apparently they refuse if you breed them together so it's not like you can get an Avatar out of a pair of GoN's anyway, unless some people have reported success since I last checked the thread.

Edited May 24, 2014 by KageSora

[Starscream]

I would agree with this concept in part. Not so much a lift of breed limits, but such a difficulty in obtaining then after 3(the amount usually needed to complete a collection of each stage. 4 would get harder, but tehn you can have one male and female adult plus one of each stage hatchling 5 would be difficult for male and female hatchie and adult then one ungendered... after that it gets very bitterly difficult. I am under the impression zombies are possible throughout the year but at such an incredible rareity. I am thinking that level of rarity after a set amount say 5. It does not Axe off the ability to obtain 6 or more, but it does make it very very rare.

 

I am still in favour (I have not read through the thread for discussion on this) of them not being trade-able. You summon them, they stay on your scroll.

 

I couldn't care that much if more can be obtained or not. I do fail to understand why things always must have limits lifted. TJ will do this or not when he deems it necessary or not.

[Guillotine]

Zombies are impossible to get outside of Halloween AFAIK; I believe TJ stated that it was a rumor at some point, although I can't find where.

 

I think that having no limits and maybe a reduction to the old success rates after three might be a good compromise, but I'd rather just having no limits. It's not like GoNs have started raining from the sky, after all.