Trade/Gift Adults or Frozen Things

[Cinnamin Draconna]

Personally, I don't see this working out for a number of reasons. Not to mention all the spam people would get asking "hey can I have ur rare dragon". Even if certain dragons become scroll-locked, their owners would be buried by the spam. We know how people react over 2G Prizes, imagine the insanity if the CB ones became tradable.

 

I've always felt that our dragons are attached to us because we raised them from babies. It doesn't seem like it would go well to suddenly drop a full-grown dragon somewhere he doesn't want to be.

 

Actual game-play issues:

-Named hatchlings can't be traded. Would this apply to adults too? Every single adult and frozen hatchling on my scroll is named, so if names scroll-lock them then this feature does not help me.

-Would frozen hatchlings be made tradable? They act like unbreedable adults in every other way.

-If frozen hatchlings do become tradable, then what about Leetle Trees?

-Can a dragon with a description be traded? Would the description get deleted?

 

And then there is a rather sizable list of dragons that may have to be coded to be scroll-locked. Prizes (actual Prize-dragons and the runner-ups), GoNs, Spriter's Alts, CB holidays, Frills, Bright Pinks. If they don't become scroll-locked, then people would start offering their entire scrolls for them. (I repeat, serious spammage for the owners of these)

 

Also, I think there would be a constant cycling of certain dragons. Example: Person 1 raises a CB Gold, breeds it a few times, then trades it off. Person 2 breeds it a few more times then trades it again. So forth and so on.

 

Also, some have mentioned that trading values could skyrocket. The idea of someone trading off a few dozen rare dragons for 1 or 2 dragons does seem like a reasonable concern.

1. That's why you have an ignore list. If you get PM spam, just put the player on your block list and delete the PM. Problem solved.

 

2. They are pixels, not pets. Let's leave the RP junk out of the equation when it has no bearing on the actual game.

 

3a. You can unname anything that's named. Just go to actions > name/rename and delete until the space is empty and save. So not an issue.

3b. Personally, I see no reason why frozen hatchlings couldn't be traded. Would just take a simple code tweak. Or if enough folk felt they shouldn't be traded, then they could be scroll locked.

3c. Leetle Trees are 1 per scroll, and they are always catchable if you don't already have one. There's no reason to change this.

3d. I don't describe my dragons, but as far as I know descriptions can always be edited or deleted. So also not an issue.

 

4. Since the code is already available, how long the list is really shouldn't be an issue. And if it IS a type of scroll locked dragon, why would anyone ask for a trade in the first place? So also not an issue.

 

5. Ignoring RP reasons...... Why would that be a problem?

 

6. If someone is willing to pay an outrageous price for something, that's their problem. Just because I ask for 100 cb stripes in exchange for a cb gold, doesn't mean I'm going to get it. Trading is between 2 players and it's up to them to decide what they will or will not pay for something. That's a given that wouldn't change.. and shouldn't.

[danicast]

I like this idea very much. I have dragons that I would like to give to family and friends as a gift.

[ZzelaBusya]

6. If someone is willing to pay an outrageous price for something, that's their problem. Just because I ask for 100 cb stripes in exchange for a cb gold, doesn't mean I'm going to get it. Trading is between 2 players and it's up to them to decide what they will or will not pay for something. That's a given that wouldn't change.. and shouldn't.

It's "their problem", yes, but on the other hand that may cause problems for everybody else at the market if a successful deal takes place.

 

On another adoptable site where trading adults is possible and there's also on-site currency (Magistream if anyone is interested), once there was a release of an event creature that people got for participating in gifting [insert some more irrelevant details here]. That creature was expected to be quite expensive, and indeed, people selling them were asking for high prices for those. And then a sale thread appeared where someone was selling it for 3 million, which was several times more than the current going price at the time.

And someone bought it. And guess what? That "someone" basically caused a disaster at the market, the price for said creature rocketing to at least 3 million for several months if not more. Yes, it was certainly "their problem" that they gave up a fortune for something like that, but at the same time it was the reason for very serious value changes that made obtaining said item a lot more challenging for everyone.

 

What I am trying to say is, if there is someone willing to pay a ton for something, people who own said "something" are likely to become aware of that, and it may cause changes to the trade values because it will become clear than obtaining that "ton" is possible and has already taken place. I'm certainly not claiming that it will happen that way in 100% of the cases - I mean, even now getting rare things doesn't necessarily require giving up an arm and a leg even if someone else has done so, but I still don't think that adding another factor is necessary and beneficial.

With the current way DC trading works, that influence is limited by massive offers of whatever one has on hand currently or/and IOUs. If adult trading is included, it all may become a lot more problematic.

Edited June 12, 2014 by ZzelaBusya

[HeatherMarie]

What I see is that any trading-related problems that comes with trading adults are probably trading problems we *already have*. People only wanting rares or hard-to-find lineages. People only looking at those Frills and Old Pinks and CB Holidays. We already HAVE plenty of problems with trading as it is, and those problems will no doubt be present in any adult-trading as well.

 

Honestly, I am still dead-set against this for what I believe is the MOST important reason: Adult trading is NOT DC.

 

There are plenty of adoptables/petsites out there that trade adults, yes, I see that's been mentioned multiple times. Those sites are NOT DC. DragonCave has *always* been about raising your own dragons. You can only raise self-bred dragons, or only CB, or only AP-caught, or a mixture however you choose... You can put tons of time and effort into lineages or you can ignore them. You can put tons of time and effort into descriptions and names, or ignore them. But *raising dragons* is the core of DC and I do NOT want to see that changed.

[Cinnamin Draconna]

I know exactly what you are saying.. I play MS too. Giftborn creatures were ALWAYS a problem because you could only get ONE. And most of the MS playerbase always collects M/F pairs of everything. Personally, I was never able to trade for a second Giftborn of anything, so I started selling mine for 1 million gold plus the first TWO offspring (I'd then bloodswap to get a breedable 1st gen pair.

 

MS has solved the problem tho... they quit giving out giftborns.

 

BUT.. and it's a very BIG BUT.. Dragon Cave does NOT have a currency system. So I doubt the problem would EVER get as bad as it is/was on MS. And since adult trading works VERY WELL on MS, I see no reason it wouldn't work here either. Provided TJ doesn't introduce giftborns or donation creatures at least.

[RainDear]

This is my opinion, just my opinion. I do not presume to speak for anyone else.

 

I am against this idea for many of the reasons already given. This would be a game breaker for me. DC is about raising your own dragons. If that changes, the game is no longer the game I signed up for.

[edwardelricfreak]

I always thought of the game as just collecting dragons. You do have to raise them, currently, in order to collect them, but as I see it as collecting in general by any means you feel like, I would personally not think it totally breaks the game.

 

I understand the viewpoint of having to raise your own dragons, though, because currently that's the only want to collect them. You can't trade adults or frozen hatchlings, which you wouldn't have to raise if they were tradeable.

[Vhale]

I'm ambivalent about this, but in the spirit of creative problem solving two thoughts popped into my head while reading posts.

 

The first is that there could be a bsa to return an adult to a hatching, and it could be tradeable then. That way people would still have to raise the dragon. I could see it being helpful for those who got their trades matured for them, or dragons like nebulas that have small windows after gendering. Might be handier as we increase the pool of dragons and it gets a little harder to find someone to gender swap with that is raising the exact same breed.

 

The other is that I used to play a tamer class in Ultima Online. Ultima Online allowed you to tame many creatures, but there was a cost to switching ownership. Basically, the difficulty of keeping the creature for harder and harder, until it was basically wild and wouldn't obey you. In a sense, animals and creatures didn't like having multiple owners and got unruly. I thought it was an interesting mechanic and it was something that limited more powerful creatures from changing hands too many times. In DC, I suppose it would have to relate to the dragon's fertility. In UO, a common horse had about a 5 owner limit, if I recall right (been a long time). Perhaps changing owners could increase time between breed attempts by 1 week.

[KageSora]

I always thought of the game as just collecting dragons. You do have to raise them, currently, in order to collect them, but as I see it as collecting in general by any means you feel like, I would personally not think it totally breaks the game.

 

I understand the viewpoint of having to raise your own dragons, though, because currently that's the only want to collect them. You can't trade adults or frozen hatchlings, which you wouldn't have to raise if they were tradeable.

If raising them wasn't a core part of the game, you'd be able to just collect them frozen in stages as-is. You'd be able to hunt for adults, or for babies that were S1 or S2. The act of raising has ALWAYS been a core part of the game, since the start.

 

3c. Leetle Trees are 1 per scroll, and they are always catchable if you don't already have one. There's no reason to change this.nge.. and shouldn't.

But you have the ability to catch or trade for any egg/hatchling that wouldn't end up scroll-locked anyway, and raise it yourself to an adult. Therefore there's no need to allow the trading of adults.

 

 

 

Personally, I'm against this suggestion. I don't want adult trading, I don't see it being a positive addition to the game. At least not without significant downsides to balance it out. Not enough, of course, to make the feature totally useless if added. But enough to make it something that would need to be thought about more than just "this is a dragon I raised myself, do I want to give it up?"

 

 

Though I dislike the idea because of reasons it might alter the trade market.

 

People were already concerned about this in the "unfreezing" thread--people who would unfreeze hatchlings and just trade them so they could have months or years to gather a lot of rare frozens as trade fodder then unfreeze and trade them. The idea to scroll-lock or auto-adult was proposed to stop that, because that was seen as "abuse of freezing/unfreezing".

 

But if you can trade adults, wouldn't that be the same sort of thing? You could have unlimited time to get as many CB rares as you wanted and then trade them off without worrying about them dying/growing up before the trade could go through.

 

Right now trading is limited to what you have on hand, or what you can obtain then trade off within 2 weeks (if you push the hatching then maturing to their absolute limits). It may take you some time to fulfill an IOU if you need to obtain more than your scroll limit, but you can't just collect everything over a few months then just trade it off at your leisure later because you don't have to deal with the maturing/dying or anything.

 

 

 

That, and just the fact that raising dragons is a core part of the game, and trading for adults means you don't have to raise it in any way, shape, or form--you just get it pre-raised. I dislike the idea of making that change to the game.

[edwardelricfreak]

If raising them wasn't a core part of the game, you'd be able to just collect them frozen in stages as-is. You'd be able to hunt for adults, or for babies that were S1 or S2. The act of raising has ALWAYS been a core part of the game, since the start.

I didn't say it was the core. I said the game is about collecting dragons. Raising them is at the core, as well as breeding them.

 

But then again I don't see why raising to trade them can't be a new addition. That would follow along with collecting them. :Y

 

idk I guess I see the game in a weird way that I can't explain. Of course raising is a big part of it, but that's only because we can't trade adults and frozens yet.

 

I'm explaining it all weirdly so idk. I don't think it's really an important point to be made anyway.

[Guillotine]

Maybe it could be mitigated by requiring a certain trophy level on both participants to trade adult dragons? I mean, as long as CB Holidays/Prizes/discontinueds are either untradeable as adults or very heavily restricted, I don't see how this would break the game.

[HeatherMarie]

See, I think that *if* this were to happen, it'd be completely unfair to exclude any specific breeds. Just 'cause CB holidays are "special", why shouldn't they be able to be traded? I mean really, if a feature is going to completely change the way the game works *anyways*, why not change that too?

 

The only way I could *possibly* support trading adults is if there was some sort of "growing" time for them as well. And it could make sense RP-wise too: An adult dragon is forcibly removed from it's home and given to you, so you need to spend some time training/taming it. Maybe, just like eggs/hatchies can die if you don't take care of them, a traded adult can run away if you don't take care of it.

Edited June 13, 2014 by Marie19R

[KageSora]

THAT I could be reluctantly okay with. As long as it's not an instant "now you have this adult you didn't raise at all on your own in any way shape or form and you can now do everything with it that you can with adults you raised yourself".

 

I'd also argue in favor of a period of untradabilty for adults after they mature.

[Ae0nian]

I strongly dislike the idea of making adult dragons tradeable (and support the reasons, already provided by Fiona BlueFire, CNR4806, ZzelaBusya, KageSora)

 

Raising dragons is indeed a core part of the game - while doing so you're taking care of their "health" by letting them gain view safely, preventing them from getting sick and so on and so forth. This doesnt' require too much of your life time, but still you need to take care well of your dragons to have them mature successfully on your scroll. Trading adults feels more like a good way of avoiding the necessity to do so. And this so much changes the gameplay.

 

Some people could simply stop raising dragons at all by offering up for trade valuable things and asking for a bunch of adult dragons in return. It is very likely, to my mind, that some people will be raising dragons while others will be only "collecting them". Will we all be playing the same game then?

 

Moreover, at the moment scroll limits prevent people from offering irrationally high prices for rare things. Nonetheless it is already hard enough and for some people impossible to get certain dragons. It has already been mentioned above what would happen if people could no longer care for scroll limits when trading... Some people even may start raising certain dragons to keep them as currency and not as items of their collection.

 

In short, I see the ability to sell adult dragons as a way of both:

- avoiding the need to raise dragons

- ignoring the current scroll limits

 

All in all, if this is implemented, we'll all be palying a very different game then... if we still like it

[Cinnamin Draconna]

I'm speaking in general here.. "you" does not mean anyone in particular.

 

Why would the ability to trade adults affect you? Would you be forced to trade your adults away? NO. Are you forced to trade at all? NO. How I play the game does not affect your game. Why? Because nothing I do with my dragons affects what you do with your dragons.

 

Trading is voluntary. No one has to trade if they do not want to. If you don't want to trade your adults dragons, you don't have to. But why would the ability for others to trade adults affect you anyway? If I trade my one and only bright pink dragon to another player, how does that affect you?

 

You folk are acting like the entire game revolves around you. Well guess what? It doesn't. Everyone has the right and the ability to play the game the way they want to. I can't tell you how to play your game, and you can't tell me how to play my game. We just have to work with what the game gives us.

 

Truth is, I don't even do much trading. I mostly GIFT. But I would like to have the ability to give away adults too. It would be easier on me AND whomever I was gifting it to. I wouldn't have to waste time catching the egg and the other player wouldn't have to give up an egg/hatchling slot to recieve it. But before you start screaming about scroll limits, that adult has already been thru the growing stage. It took up an egg/hatchling slot while it grew up, and there's no reason to make it do so again. That would be like double jepardy, or making you pay twice for something.

 

But what it all comes down to, is that no one would be forced to trade adults. Just like no one is forced to trade to start with. You probably would be at a disadvantage if you did want to trade, but that would be your choice and is no different than not being able to catch rares to trade. You work with what you have, not moan and groan over what you don't have.

 

Personally, I wouldn't be trading away my rares anyway. I'd be looking for bloodswaps or special lineages. And finding the right bloodswap or the right special lineage might take longer than the 5 days it normally takes to grow a dragon. I spent over a year once trying to find exactly the right egg so I could make a trade, and then I had to wait even longer for the egg I wanted in return to be bred. Then the breeder had to give up an egg/hatchling slot to grow my egg, when they could have bred it at their convienence at any time during that year while I was hunting the egg they wanted. Plus, if I had happened to have an adult dragon that matched what I needed for the trade, I wouldn't have had to waste over a year looking for an egg that matched what I needed.

 

If you want to trade away all your rares, that's your choice. It doesn't affect me and it doesn't affect how I play my game. And what I do on my scroll doesn't affect you or how you play your game either.

 

Scrolls don't interact.. and I hope they never do.

Trading is voluntary.. and it only affects the two players involved.

[danicast]

No one if forced to trade adults if they don't want. You can continue to play the game as it is now forever, it's your game, play as please you. The alternative to trade adults is going to bring the opportunity to play the game in better ways to other players who would like that.

I just saw today someone offering a green copper egg for 2 purple cb male hatchlings. I'm going to PM the person and ask if the person would accept a IOU, because I don't have 2 cb purple male hatchlings at the moment. But damn, I have dozens of cb purple male ADULTS. I could have offered 2 adults to this person if it was possible to trade adults. My efforts raising the dragons would have paid, I could get this CB green copper.

I want to be able to trade and gift adults, it will enrich the game.

[ZzelaBusya]

I just saw today someone offering a green copper egg for 2 purple cb male hatchlings. I'm going to PM the person and ask if the person would accept a IOU, because I don't have 2 cb purple male hatchlings at the moment. But damn, I have dozens of cb purple male ADULTS. I could have offered 2 adults to this person if it was possible to trade adults. My efforts raising the dragons would have paid, I could get this CB green copper.

If adult trading were possible, why do you think having two CB Purple adults would really help you? I mean, finding someone who has two CB Purple male hatchlings on hand is one thing, and if you have them - bingo - you get that perfect trade of a CB Green Copper you needed so much. But just imagine the amount of players who have two CB male Purples on their scroll and want a CB Copper. The outcome of that particular trade would most likely be someone fast getting it rather than you, unless you'd be first, which, once again, isn't very likely seeing how many scrolls with a bunch of CB Purples exist out there.

 

Besides, the reason of that cheap CB Copper trade was that the person in question apparently needed two CB male Purples quickly, they really needed to find a user with two male hatchies on hand and exchange. You think if adults could be traded people would still be offering such rare dragons for two commons? Why would I trade a CB Copper for two Purples if they are common AND there are a lot of people who have armies of adults theoretically available for trade?

That aspect drives up the challenge in trading a whole lot, because a huge base of adults will pour onto the market, overwhelming the growing dragons traders have available. Being able to trade adults will not make things easier for you or anyone else, it will only make it more challenging because of the huge group of players potentially interested in any given trade and having the needed adults.

 

Having growing dragons of certain kinds at the right moment is currently rewarding. With adult trading, however, what you have on your scroll among growing things will not matter all that much any longer.

 

EDIT:

I'm sure I'll have a winner because I know the person who is trading the copper.

That wasn't even the point. Replace it with "person 1" and "person 2" and an identical trade, and we're done.

 

 

Some people even may start raising certain dragons to keep them as currency and not as items of their collection.

That's very true, and that irks me a lot.

Edited June 13, 2014 by ZzelaBusya

[danicast]

People already do that, the only difference is that they have to trade their trade fodders before they grow up. A lot of people hunt and breed only for trade.

 

I'm going to add something else: unfortunately we can't speculate about my chances offering 2 adult purples in a trade because such trade doesn't exist. I'm sure I'll have a winner because I know the person who is trading the copper.

Edited June 13, 2014 by danicast

[RainDear]

This is my opinion, just my opinion. I do not presume to speak for anyone else.

 

This would be a fundamental change in DC. It would change the focus of the game. Whether I traded adults or for adults or not the changes would affect me. The price alteration would affect everyone who trades. The change in focus from raising/collecting to collecting/let someone else raise would change the way I view the game, the way I enjoy the game, the way I feel about the game. Such a change would be, for me, game breaking.

 

I do not play any other online game. I do not care what works in other online games. I am not interested in playing other online games. If DC changes in such a fundamental way, it will no longer be the game I have been playing since November, 2008. Changing DC in such a way will affect me.

[ZzelaBusya]

People already do that, the only difference is that they have to trade their trade fodders before they grow up. A lot of people hunt and breed only for trade.

Yes of course, but nowadays players are very limited in that possibility. Even if they breed/catch only for trade, they are limited in BOTH time and the number of slots they have. Once your hatchling grows up, you can't trade it any longer; once you hit 7 eggs, you can't breed for trade any longer.

It's nothing compared to possible trade bases of hundreds and hundreds that will remain tradeable forever.

[Herk]

Meh - I can't see me using this feature very often, except in cases of bloodswap when two perfect mates refuse or something.

 

On the other hand, as I don't trade often (because the ratios are ridiculous as it is) this wouldn't affect me indirectly either.

 

So while I don't wait eagerly for this to happen, I can see no real reason to be against it (except of course for the whole "change - OMG change is bad" reflex I get from time to time )

[danicast]

Yes of course, but nowadays players are very limited in that possibility. Even if they breed/catch only for trade, they are limited in BOTH time and the number of slots they have. Once your hatchling grows up, you can't trade it any longer; once you hit 7 eggs, you can't breed for trade any longer.

It's nothing compared to possible trade bases of hundreds and hundreds that will remain tradeable forever.

And this would be bad because...? I see this change as an awesome change!

[ZzelaBusya]

And this would be bad because...? I see this change as an awesome change!

I've already covered those points in my previous posts here, explaining my concerns about negative outcomes. I see this is starting to go in circles so I'm stepping out of the discussion for now.

 

@raindear - I agree. Talking about other sites, I actually enjoy the fact that DC is different from those in several aspects such as the trading system, and I wouldn't like to see it become closer to other projects.

[Fuzzbucket]

I strongly dislike the idea of making adult dragons tradeable (and support the reasons, already provided by Fiona BlueFire, CNR4806, ZzelaBusya, KageSora)

 

Some people could simply stop raising dragons at all by offering up for trade valuable things and asking for a bunch of adult dragons in return. It is very likely, to my mind, that some people will be raising dragons while others will be only "collecting them". Will we all be playing the same game then?

 

Moreover, at the moment scroll limits prevent people from offering irrationally high prices for rare things. Nonetheless it is already hard enough and for some people impossible to get certain dragons. It has already been mentioned above what would happen if people could no longer care for scroll limits when trading... Some people even may start raising certain dragons to keep them as currency and not as items of their collection.

 

That's very true, and that irks me a lot.

 

In short, I see the ability to sell adult dragons as a way of both:

- avoiding the need to raise dragons

- ignoring the current scroll limits

 

All in all, if this is implemented, we'll all be playing a very different game then... if we still like it

Indeed. Sure - I wouldn't take part in adult trading - but it would still change the nature of the game beyond recognition. Not least because people would collect those CB golds they currently trade for other EGGS that we all have a hope of getting, to trade en masse for Old Pinks and old CB holidays.

 

[JavaTigress]

In short, I see the ability to sell adult dragons as a way of both:

- avoiding the need to raise dragons

- ignoring the current scroll limits

 

All in all, if this is implemented, we'll all be playing a very different game then... if we still like it

Indeed. Sure - I wouldn't take part in adult trading - but it would still change the nature of the game beyond recognition. Not least because people would collect those CB golds they currently trade for other EGGS that we all have a hope of getting, to trade en masse for Old Pinks and old CB holidays.

 

Yeah, and I have a few CB Holidays * looks at her black marrow, ribbon dancer and snow angel* that I am not sure I would want to be PESTERED to trade for. Even for ever so many CB Golds. I would get sick of getting offers for them when I am not at all sure I am even INTERESTED in trading them.

Edited June 13, 2014 by Silverswift