Posted June 13, 2014 For an idea to truly work it will need to have both negative and positive realised to be a success. I think everyone wanted you to truly understand there are some deep run negatives that really need to be considered on this idea. It is through a lot of established users and veteran experiences on here, that they are able offer all facets seen and experienced (not all though of course) - as we have gone through many thick and thins. This year has already seen many changes and a lot of those positive this year that has already developed gameplay. It is a collecting game and not really a race. If more positives can be put forward that is great but the overall picture has to be seen also Share this post Link to post
Posted June 13, 2014 (edited) For an idea to truly work it will need to have both negative and positive realised to be a success. I think everyone wanted you to truly understand there are some deep run negatives that really need to be considered on this idea. It is through a lot of established users and veteran experiences on here, that they are able offer all facets seen and experienced (not all though of course) - as we have gone through many thick and thins. This year has already seen many changes and a lot of those positive this year that has already developed gameplay. It is a collecting game and not really a race. If more positives can be put forward that is great but the overall picture has to be seen also Lilacamy said this very well. Maybe if you could come up with possible solutions for the concerns people have, the response might be less negative. The trick is in ADDRESSING the concerns, not pretending they don't exist or aren't valid. Both sides need to be weighed out. Edited June 13, 2014 by Silverswift Share this post Link to post
Posted June 13, 2014 Lilacamy said this very well. Maybe if you could come up with possible solutions for the concerns people have, the response might be less negative. The trick is in ADDRESSING the concerns, not pretending they don't exist or aren't valid. Both sides need to be weighed out. Oh dear, I can not adress such "problems" because the truth is that I don't think such problems exist! Share this post Link to post
Posted June 13, 2014 Oh, man, I'm sad in read all of this. I never expected to see so much negativity together. Nobody is seeing the brilliant aspects of this idea, everybody is just searching for negativity. At least this makes me understand (I'm pretty much noob in this game) why some suggestion spend years before get approved, why this game is so slow and why we don't see new improvements for years. Now it makes sense for me, thank you for that. You have yet to show us the brilliant aspects, if indeed there are any. We don't have to search for negativity, the negative aspects of it are all too evident. I am always amazed at new players who start playing this game and then want to change it into some other game that they can already play somewhere else! I have been playing this game for many years -- because I like it the way it is! Is it perfect? No. I have accepted many changes to the game and hope for others to come. But something that changes the game as fundamentally as this suggestion would is just not acceptable to me. Share this post Link to post
Posted June 13, 2014 (edited) Oh, man, I'm sad in read all of this. I never expected to see so much negativity together. Nobody is seeing the brilliant aspects of this idea, everybody is just searching for negativity. You are actually making a judgement here about motives. Mine at least. You are assuming that people came into the discussion with a closed mind, determined only to see the negative. I do see the positives. They've been explored in the thread. I just don't think they outweigh the negatives. Unless and until some idea can be put forth that solves the negative issues I'll continue to oppose this. At least this makes me understand (I'm pretty much noob in this game) why some suggestion spend years before get approved, why this game is so slow and why we don't see new improvements for years. Now it makes sense for me, thank you for that. What makes you think there have been no improvements for years? I've seen multiple, amazing new features added. To name a few: increased scroll limits, official trading, a change in how kill limits work, multiple events every year, incubate, influence. I'm sure I can think of many more. I appreciate that TJ is careful about implementing changes though. Once done they aren't easily undone, and since each has an impact on the game I'm glad he takes the time to thoroughly plan each one and to think through how it might affect the game. I've been here since fall of 2008. I've seen a lot of things impact the game, a lot of changes. I oppose this suggestion as it currently stands because of the changes I've seen, not on some knee-jerk emotion-driven opposition to change. Edited June 13, 2014 by Fiona BlueFire Share this post Link to post
Posted June 13, 2014 Oh dear, I can not adress such "problems" because the truth is that I don't think such problems exist! This could be why there have been some clashes of views on the thread. May I ask as we have not chatted before do you haunt forums often? A lot of the impacts that have been mentioned would be throughout many threads highlighting the reality of some of the problems (ie. Trading thread - researching will show majority of issues there along with Questions about a Trade / Forum feedback holds many various related issues / Multi - scrolling crops up time to time - very recently with beginning of the year in fact). Maybe some research and looking objectively at the issues can be done? I will put forward - holiday uplifts, I was not certain about it at the time, it made me uneasy about the change happening. Now? Best thing ever and a very large percentage of players love it. I remember that thread getting heated and thrashed out, but it resulted in something a lot of players enjoy and it did add a new facet to the game. Every detail was picked over though both positive and negative. Share this post Link to post
Posted June 13, 2014 (edited) Oh dear, I can not adress such "problems" because the truth is that I don't think such problems exist! Many of us have spelled them out. For us they do exist. Answer those concerns. Saying you think it is brilliant, so we are all party-poopers for disagreeing with you is not an answer. Edited June 13, 2014 by fuzzbucket Share this post Link to post
Posted June 13, 2014 It's hard enough trying to trade eggs this would make it worse because people will think "Why would I take their 2nd gen metal when they have a perfectly good Caveborn silver they can trade?" And people are free to say "no" when someone decides to be greedy and asks for their CB instead. I'm sure there are some people who might be willing to trade CB adults, but you're assuming that everyone is a jerk and is going to be demanding they trade their CBs over what they're actually offering. While some of that might happen, it already happens with people wanting other hatchlings/eggs you happen to have for other things or offspring from certain adults on your scroll. I'm just saying, I feel like that's once of the weaker points against the idea, along with "increased harassment". I don't think they're really grounds for not implementing the idea. o3o I'm still on the fence about the idea, though. On one hand I feel it could work. I'd say make CB holidays, prizes, and spriter's alts untradeable. I don't think Frills and Bright Pinks would need to be counted, though they could. Also, I like the idea of adults needing to be on a cooldown on ALL (or most) of their actions (breeding, killing, releasing, BSAs if they have them, maybe not naming and descriptions) once traded, and they also can't be traded for that time. I think two weeks, the same as an egg and hatchling have until they die, would be perfect. But then on the other hand, I'm not certain how it would affect the trade market! I feel like it's could in some aspects and horrible in others. I don't think it will increase or decrease multiscrolling, because people will probably still just use extra slots and not care when they get adults, or they might be like "well I can just trade adults now, so I don't need this extra scroll anyway". Share this post Link to post
Posted June 13, 2014 Well, I'm an old player and I support this idea. Being new or old has nothing to do with the issue. Rares, Rares, Rares. Seems like most of you (general you) do nothing but trade rares and want nothing in exchange except rares. I don't want this feature to trade rares, I want this to trade commons and for bloodline swaps. There are more dragons in this game than just rares, and some of us would like to trade for 'normal' stuff. Harrassment happens now and will do so in the future regardless of what gets changed. You deal with it the same way.. report it or use your block function. And if the rules are written properly to go along with the new feature, any increase should be minimal. It would probably be the same folk doing the harrassment anyway, so once they are on ignore, you wouldn't need to deal with them again. Multiscrolling happens now and probably always will. Thing is tho, massive amounts of adults suddenly being traded would probably send up a red flag and make it easier for TJ to catch them. Plus, a smart trader makes sure they know who they are trading with, and if you wind up with trades from multiple folk you might be dealing with a multi-scroller.. at which point you should notify TJ and let him deal with it. So pay attention and make sure you know which forum name goes with which scroll name. If you suspect a multi-scroller, turn them in to TJ. Every other arguement seems to fall under the 'fear of change' issue. The general you doesn't want the game to change because it might break the game. Are you sure it will break the game? 100% sure? Why not let the change happen and try it out before condemening it? Just because DC is unique is not a reason for it to never change or never get better. Change keeps things interesting.. I would have quit a long time ago if the game hadn't changed over the years. Change is why a lot of us stay around.. the new features keep us coming back for more. New features always take time to evolve and even longer to get used to. But not changing WILL kill the game, because everyone will get terminally bored. Share this post Link to post
Posted June 13, 2014 Every other arguement seems to fall under the 'fear of change' issue. The general you doesn't want the game to change because it might break the game. Are you sure it will break the game? 100% sure? Why not let the change happen and try it out before condemening it? Just because DC is unique is not a reason for it to never change or never get better. Change keeps things interesting.. I would have quit a long time ago if the game hadn't changed over the years. Change is why a lot of us stay around.. the new features keep us coming back for more. New features always take time to evolve and even longer to get used to. But not changing WILL kill the game, because everyone will get terminally bored. This is why I'm not sure. We can speculate, but we really won't know how game-breaking or game-building it will be! I'm hoping that, even if it breaks a little, it does more building. I would actually not mind trying it out for a few months (like maybe 3ish?), and then after the trial time, we can see how we feel about it. Hopefully no one trades anything they would really REALLY want back after it goes away if the general consensus is "please not ever again". x3 Share this post Link to post
Posted June 13, 2014 I would like to clarify for my posts in case came across wrong in anyway, it does not matter old or new player as all opinions are valid. I merely refer to the older/established players for experience on previous problems within the game. Issues in the past are there to be learned from to hopefully make better changes in the future. I am not adverse to change just feel some the negative points outweigh the good and on a more personal level may just not be for me. In terms of bloodline swaps - unsure why these can't be traded egg or hatchling with the way we are now? (Genuine need for clarification). The only thing I can think of is say two people have grown pairs that have refused and can swap partners over with each other? Second chance at a non-refusal? Share this post Link to post
Posted June 13, 2014 This is my opinion, just my opinion. I do not presume to speak for anyone else. I am not "afraid of change". I have been in favor of a lot of changes over the years, and against many as well. I see this change as something that will be so fundamental as to break the game for me. It will change the whole concept of the game. "Wait and see"?????. Let the game be changed so deeply that I will want to quit???? That is a "solution" to my fears?????? NO!! If the game breaks for me, I will be gone. Even if the game is changed back again, I will never know it. And once I have released my dragons and left, it will be too late to turn back in any case. Share this post Link to post
Posted June 13, 2014 (edited) This is my opinion, just my opinion. I do not presume to speak for anyone else. I am not "afraid of change". I have been in favor of a lot of changes over the years, and against many as well. I see this change as something that will be so fundamental as to break the game for me. It will change the whole concept of the game. "Wait and see"?????. Let the game be changed so deeply that I will want to quit???? That is a "solution" to my fears?????? NO!! If the game breaks for me, I will be gone. Even if the game is changed back again, I will never know it. And once I have released my dragons and left, it will be too late to turn back in any case. AND, IMHO, This is really the BIGGEST problem with this idea. There are folks that are SO opposed to this idea that making this change would drive them away. The other issues could maybe be worked around with disallowing trading of certain adults and punishing those reported for abuse or multiscrolling. Those are issues, for sure, but they could POSSIBLY have solutions to them. If it breaks the game for some people, they are so adamantly opposed to it, so that they are more willing to release all of their dragons and never look back than stick it out, then one has to wonder how worth it it is. It wouldn't drive me away, necessarily, but evidently others feel differently. I wonder how many share Raindear's sentiments. Change is one thing, but if that change alienates enough people then it didn't serve its purpose, which was to make the game more fun for most ( you aren't EVER going to make everyone happy). Would it really be worth it to lose who KNOWS how many users? I doubt it. For that reason ALONE I don't think TJ would approve of this. Edited June 13, 2014 by Silverswift Share this post Link to post
Posted June 13, 2014 Rares, Rares, Rares. Seems like most of you (general you) do nothing but trade rares and want nothing in exchange except rares. I don't want this feature to trade rares, I want this to trade commons and for bloodline swaps. There are more dragons in this game than just rares, and some of us would like to trade for 'normal' stuff. I would really like clarification on this point, too. How would this work better than being able to trade eggs? What are the advantages? Share this post Link to post
Posted June 13, 2014 In terms of bloodline swaps - unsure why these can't be traded egg or hatchling with the way we are now? (Genuine need for clarification). The only thing I can think of is say two people have grown pairs that have refused and can swap partners over with each other? Second chance at a non-refusal? They still can be, especially in the case where adults couldn't be found. But sometimes, people have the bloodswap already as an adult, so they could trade that, I guess. o3o And yes, it would definitely be a bit less of a headache to find good adult bloodswaps or even siblings for a dragon that refused so you can trade them. This is my opinion, just my opinion. I do not presume to speak for anyone else. I am not "afraid of change". I have been in favor of a lot of changes over the years, and against many as well. I see this change as something that will be so fundamental as to break the game for me. It will change the whole concept of the game. "Wait and see"?????. Let the game be changed so deeply that I will want to quit???? That is a "solution" to my fears?????? NO!! If the game breaks for me, I will be gone. Even if the game is changed back again, I will never know it. And once I have released my dragons and left, it will be too late to turn back in any case. Personally I kind of think it's a bit of an overreaction, but then again I don't quite view the game the same way, so I can see how something like this would drastically change the game for you! I really hope that, if it were implemented, it would maybe be in a way that wouldn't make anyone leave because it so drastically changes everything, but I don't know what would happen. That's why I suggested a trial, not so much to make anyone leave, but test to see if it's really as scary, if it makes trading better/worse, or if it's even more horrid than we thought and judge from there. I do think "wait and see" is really the best we can get with something like this to see if it majorly breaks the game or not. And not even trying it out for a bit won't let us know ever. Sure some people will be okay, but others might keep asking for it. Personally, and it's just my opinion, I do want to try it, even if it's only for a couple weeks. I really want to know how good and bad it can be. Share this post Link to post
Posted June 13, 2014 This is my opinion, just my opinion. I do not presume to speak for anyone else. I get really tired of "Anyone who opposes this idea is just afraid of change." This is not an argument. It is an attempt to belittle one's opponents. It is not conducive to discussion. It is an attempt to shut off discussion. I am not "afraid of change". I resent being told that my opinion does not matter because of a preconceived and false notion of my reasoning, or reasons. Now, I think it's best I leave this conversation for a while. Share this post Link to post
Posted June 13, 2014 Why do I need adult trading for bloodline swaps... Striped Dragons. I've been working on the same 10 gen even gen stripe breeding project since April 2009.. and I know of a few other breeders working on similar projects. Over those five years, there have been MANY occasions where a dragon has gendered wrong or has refused it's intended partner. When I started this project Influence was not available.. and since Influence is NOT 100% mis-genders still happen. Those dragons wind up useless to my project.. but they could have been VERY helpful to one of the other breeders I know of. Plus, there's the issue of getting the 'right' colored stripe. While color doesn't matter for MY project, for some of the other breeders it does. So here I have this mis-gendered dragon.. or this dragon that refused it's mate.. and one of the other stripe breeders has the correct gender or one that my dragon might mate with.. or I have one the color they could use. But they are adults, so they wind up being useless to all of us. And I'm sure that Nebula breeders... or Dorsal breeders.. or Ridgewing breeders.. or any other type of breeder where color/variant matters.. would absolutely LOVE to be able to trade an adult they don't need for an adult they do need. --------------------- And I still don't understand why this suggestion will affect actual gameplay. If the general you doesn't want to trade adults, they don't have to. If all the general you wants to do is catch dragons, raise dragons and breed dragons.. adult trading would NOT affect your game. How the general you trades would not have to change. It might take longer to find a trade, but guess what.. if adult trading were allowed, you would no longer be under a time constraint to find a trade before your trade bait grows up. Sounds like a win - win scenario to me. Share this post Link to post
Posted June 13, 2014 I would really like clarification on this point, too. How would this work better than being able to trade eggs? What are the advantages? I'll take a stab at making this make a little sense. I think Ill call it The Nebula Factor. Nebulas have 4 colors, but one egg. Right now, a person has no clue which nebula they are going to get until it hatches and genders. With influence, they can narrow it down, but influence is not 100%. Once it genders, if it's wrong, they've got 24 solid hours to try to swap it and more if no one view bombs it. In general, I haven't had too much trouble swapping nebulas as they are popular, lots of people raise them. But I have noticed that a large number of dragons are being made multi color. So, there's nothing to say that next year we won't have more Nebula type dragons. So, this year, say there are 10 people raising Nebulas. 5 get the wrong gender and swap. Next year we get 5 more Nebula type dragons. Now those 10 people are raising 5 different dragons and there is one potential swap partner. Basically, I see this as something a bit conditional that would get handier as the cave gets fuller because it can be hard to have things on hand for swaps. I do think that the adults should revert to hatchy status because I think the natural hatchy limits on scrolls would help stifle multi scrolling issues. Granted, I'd be just as happy to have a bsa that revealed gender so I'd have more time to trade that way too, but hopefully my ramble makes a bit of sense from my perspective on why it would be handy. Share this post Link to post
Posted June 13, 2014 Random question now - what if it was restricted that adult dragons could only trade for other adult dragons? That might curb some concerns on trading market? (Will put disclaimer right now - tired, late and have a headache so apologies if it sounds stupid) Share this post Link to post
Posted June 13, 2014 (edited) Random question now - what if it was restricted that adult dragons could only trade for other adult dragons? That might curb some concerns on trading market? (Will put disclaimer right now - tired, late and have a headache so apologies if it sounds stupid) You mean... what if adult trades were a seperate thing entirely and you COULD NOT offer eggs or hatchlings for them or offer them for eggs or hatchlings? Interesting. Very interesting. It does make me wonder if it would help some of the possible issues, though. Edited June 13, 2014 by Silverswift Share this post Link to post
Posted June 13, 2014 You mean... what if adult trades were a seperate thing entire and yopu COULD NOT offer eggs or hatchlings for them? Interesting. Very interesting. It does make me wonder if it would help some of the possible issues, though. Yes that was the randomness of it Might eliminate some of the issues but would work well for the reasons some would want to swap/trade adults in first place. Share this post Link to post
Posted June 13, 2014 (edited) Yes that was the randomness of it Might eliminate some of the issues but would work well for the reasons some would want to swap/trade adults in first place. I wonder if there should be a longer cooldown for adult trades, too. Edited June 13, 2014 by Silverswift Share this post Link to post
Posted June 13, 2014 Where would GIFTING fall under that scenario? And what about IOU's? Using a one way trade would get around the adult for adult restriction, so I don't think it would solve anything. Share this post Link to post
Posted June 13, 2014 (edited) I assume gifting and IOUS would work the same way they do for eggs and hatchies. By mutual agreement and on the honor system. ANOTHER thought I had is maybe make charging 100 CB golds for such and such an impossibility by limiting how many dragons could be transferred for a thing at once? It might discourage asking for so much it could break the market, and create epic lag, by making it impractical to try to transfer 100 dragons for one. Edited June 13, 2014 by Silverswift Share this post Link to post
Posted June 13, 2014 Random question now - what if it was restricted that adult dragons could only trade for other adult dragons? That might curb some concerns on trading market? (Will put disclaimer right now - tired, late and have a headache so apologies if it sounds stupid) I still don't like the whole idea - but that would be far more acceptable. And yes - with a LONG cooldown - and maybe a restriction on the number you could trade. Share this post Link to post
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