Trade/Gift Adults or Frozen Things

[lilacamy931]

I know it is not perfect - gifting would not be able to happen with that I know.

 

IOUs, well that is down to an individual and how some players choose to play (I am one of them that takes the risk) - it isn't technically allowed within trading forums (I know its a technicality). Plus IOU - just send it as a hatchie would it need to wait to grow? If it is 1:1 trade there can be a straight swap when grown. If someone owes you more they can send as they hatch.

 

It is merely a suggestion for the main concerns that arise as there are concerns that need at least thinking through/some reassurance.

 

Making adult dragons tradeable does not have to mean tradeable to all things available, there may be happier solutions out there?

 

Anyways off for the night, good luck coming up with more pros and cons

[edwardelricfreak]

Oooh, I like the idea of restricting adult trading (and I assume frozen hatchlings?) to trading for other adults.

 

Gifting could still be done, I think.

 

I do wonder, would adults be restricted to no more than 4 per trade? Eggs and hatchlings are restricted because of scroll limits, I think.

[Kovia]

Has anyone actually said why we need this feature? There's been plenty of arguments for it, but is there any actual one reason.

 

I don't like people complaining about having "useless" dragons on their scroll due to rejected mates. The point of this site is to collect dragons. It's not like we have a limit or anything. Either keep it, maybe you'll find something to breed it to, or release it. No big deal.

 

Nebulas are not really that huge of an issue, unless you're trying to trade a lineaged one, in which case good luck. CB Nebulas get swapped very easily, if you look on EATW there's almost always someone trading one. The only time I think someone would have a problem is if they're asking for one that doesn't exist like a male blue (I have seen people ask for this).

 

Stripes are annoying, but you can easily breed another, all CBs are white, and the egg reveals the color. I see no issue there. An annoyance, yes, but major problem, no.

 

Lineage swaps do not require the trading of adults. If you have the parent dragons, breed them again. If you don't, either find someone with a pairing or start breeding a mate yourself. Yes, it will take time, especially with certain lineages, but it is not impossible. Even if you can trade that refusing dragon, you still have to find someone with a lineage swap to give you.

 

Even if a "control" of some form is added, such as long CD or limits on number transferred, people can and will just wait this out and still make those 100:1 transfers we're all afraid of. If it requires a trade, people will deliver IOUs by having one person offer up something horribly-lineaged and the other offering that gorgeous lineage or CB rare.

 

 

I believe that this idea, if implemented, will not solve as many trading problems as people think it will. It will probably cause more trading issues. If people trade exclusively for hatchlings now, how long before they'll refuse to trade for anything but adults? Not to mention that it will upset many people, and probably upset more when it does not live up to expectations. I know that if this feature gets added, the first thing I'm doing is adding a giant "I do not trade my adults" sign to my sig. I'm one of those people that tends to grow attached to "just pixels" and I'd rather not break up my little dragon tribe. If that's not how you think of your dragons, then that's your gamestyle and I won't criticize you if you don't criticize me.

[Cinnamin Draconna]

Along that line.. why not restrict it to commons and uncommons? I could live without trading adult rares, since it's probably not something I would use anyway.

 

Or allow it strictly for variants.. stripes, nebulas, ALT black/vine, etc.

[JavaTigress]

I know that if this feature gets added, the first thing I'm doing is adding a giant "I do not trade my adults" sign to my sig. I'm one of those people that tends to grow attached to "just pixels" and I'd rather not break up my little dragon tribe. If that's not how you think of your dragons, then that's your gamestyle and I won't criticize you if you don't criticize me.

I know how you feel about this.

 

I wouldn't like to break up my 'clan', either, and I would probably put something about NOT trading adults in my sig as well. Rare or not, I get somewhat attached to them. That said, I think some feel it might allow for more swapping for lineages. Especially for rejected mates. As far as people refusing to trade for eggs or hatchlings an only accepting adults, well, that, unfortunately would be their right... and their loss, IMO. There is something to be said for actually raising an egg... though a nice low time egg or even a hatchie from the AP or a trade is always fun as well.

Edited June 13, 2014 by Silverswift

[Kojayo]

Nope.

 

 

....

 

Nope.

[Kovia]

Along that line.. why not restrict it to commons and uncommons? I could live without trading adult rares, since it's probably not something I would use anyway.

 

Or allow it strictly for variants.. stripes, nebulas, ALT black/vine, etc.

Issue there is that people argue over what qualifies as rare. Even some of the common-ish dragons are desirable and get traded a lot. We all agree on golds and silvers, but the rest are in question. Coppers are considered rare but were not intended by the creator to be rare. Blusangs, lindwurms, and golden wyverns are considered rare by some and uncommon by others. The new avatars are still up for debate. This would require everyone coming to an agreement on what the exact list of rares is first.

[Fuzzbucket]

Issue there is that people argue over what qualifies as rare. Even some of the common-ish dragons are desirable and get traded a lot. We all agree on golds and silvers, but the rest are in question. Coppers are considered rare but were not intended by the creator to be rare. Blusangs, lindwurms, and golden wyverns are considered rare by some and uncommon by others. The new avatars are still up for debate. This would require everyone coming to an agreement on what the exact list of rares is first.

As Cinn says - for VARIABLE dragons only would possibly be slightly OK. I know the problems she has with her lines... (as an aside, Cinn - do PM some time - I have quite a lot of stripes...)

 

And an absolute nix on ANY kind of prize or holiday dragons - they have skewed trading quite enough already.

 

(Still hate the idea, mind, though if it meant my green nebbie x gold lineage would pick up speed... )

[Cinnamin Draconna]

Nope, would never work. Trying to get a consensus from a 'committee' is practically impossible.

 

Best solution for that would be to let TJ decide.

 

Edit to add: thanks Fuzz.. I'll make a note of your offer *hugs*

Edited June 13, 2014 by Cinnamin Draconna

[JavaTigress]

As Cinn says - for VARIABLE dragons only would possibly be slightly OK. I know the problems she has with her lines... (as an aside, Cinn - do PM some time - I have quite a lot of stripes...)

 

And an absolute nix on ANY kind of prize or holiday dragons - they have skewed trading quite enough already.

 

(Still hate the idea, mind, though if it meant my green nebbie x gold lineage would pick up speed... )

That'd be an idea to cut down on the begging and harassment for sure. I'd say a nix on the Spiter's alt as well. ALTHOUGH most of the ones I have seen also happen to be Holiday or Prize breeds so... maybe that wouldn't be necessary. What about discontinueds, like Old pinks. I could see them being a problem if trades were allowed.

 

That said, i am not loving this idea, still, either; but with limitations imposed on it, it has been improved somewhat .

Edited June 13, 2014 by Silverswift

[Fiona]

Spriters only get alts for holidays and prizes, so putting all holidays and prize dragons on the do-not-trade list would also protect the spriter's alts.

 

I'm uncertain about metals (golds, silvers and the less rare coppers) but I'd say anything that can normally be caught in the cave should be ok. Also, normally bred hybrids. I'm not enthused about Avatars bbeing traded, but definitely no trading GoN (which I'm sure you couldn't anyway.) And no trading Leetle Trees either.

 

ETA: Cinnamon, I have an extensive collection of stripes too. Just let me know what combination you're looking for. I don't have many past third gen, and most of those are a particular two color combinations, but I'd be happy to help where I can.

Edited June 13, 2014 by Fiona BlueFire

[Cinnamin Draconna]

That's a good point Fiona. Limiting adult trading to ONLY dragons that actually drop in the biomes on a regular basis, should exclude most of the troublesome dragons that have been mentioned.

 

 

And thanks for the offer of stripes Fiona.. I'm currently egglocked, but I'm always on the lookout for purebred 2nd gen stripes of any color. I'll make a note and get back to you later. *hugs*

 

Edit: thank you too Vhale.. I'll PM you later.

Edited June 14, 2014 by Cinnamin Draconna

[Vhale]

Along that line.. why not restrict it to commons and uncommons? I could live without trading adult rares, since it's probably not something I would use anyway.

 

Or allow it strictly for variants.. stripes, nebulas, ALT black/vine, etc.

That's kinda what I was getting at with the Ultima Online scenario.

What that did at its heart was each creature had a value and each trade added 20 points to it. Once it got over a certain amount of points, it couldn't be traded. So it out a limit on what could and couldn't. I thought it was a neat system but I'm going to guess too advanced for this site.

 

Seems like restricting it to variable dragons would work too, if not too messy.

 

I lean towards just keeping it simple myself. I think a 2week bsa to turn one dragon back into a hatchy so it could trade would be fine. In order to trade 100 golds, they'd need to grow the BSA dragon and then revert the golds, one at a time. I'll let someone else do the math on the fastest possible way to do that if the BSA and dragon was released today. It would be tedious, to say the least. And not like more than 1% of the user base can likely make a trade like that more than once anywho.

 

Also have stripes, I think you already have eggs from my older ones but I have been catching new ones lately.

[danicast]

Hmm... why so many rules and attempts to control other people's games? I don't see the need. Let's install the trade system and allow people to play. If someone wants to give 100 gold CBs adult, let them do it! If they want to give away a colllection of low gen shimmers, let them do it. I'm totally against the idea to limit other people and what they want to do with their dragons except for quantity. Maybe a limitation to trade 20 adult dragons per day, as example, but that's all.

[Wolfsong442]

Hmm... why so many rules and attempts to control other people's games? I don't see the need. Let's install the trade system and allow people to play. If someone wants to give 100 gold CBs adult, let them do it! If they want to give away a colllection of low gen shimmers, let them do it. I'm totally against the idea to limit other people and what they want to do with their dragons except for quantity. Maybe a limitation to trade 20 adult dragons per day, as example, but that's all.

You can't just propose such a radical idea (and indeed, unreasonable to some people) and then completely dismiss people who dislike the idea, but are proposing the limits to try and make it work. You can't have everything how you want it on demand.

 

I can't tell if you're really so naive that you think that everything is sunshine or rainbows or if you just want, want, want for yourself.

[Guillotine]

I'd figure that scroll-locking dragons that are already locked/CB Holidays/Prizes/discontinueds would be quite enough, really, particularly if combined with the standard 4-per-offer trade limit and having to trade adults for adults. Yes, rares might be a problem, but I doubt they'd be more of a problem than they already are.

[edwardelricfreak]

You can't just propose such a radical idea (and indeed, unreasonable to some people) and then completely dismiss people who dislike the idea, but are proposing the limits to try and make it work. You can't have everything how you want it on demand.

Yes exactly!

 

As it stands now, simply adding in the ability to trade any (or at least most) adults will not go over well in the slightest.

 

You need restrictions on certain dragons and decent cooldowns as a start for game-balancing.

[gizmo1960]

Instead of trading,how about having all released dragons go to a "dragon dating club" for a certain number of days before they are truly no longer available. there could be a limit on how many and how often you could grab adults. it wouldn't be a trade but more like an anonymous gift to whoever got it. therefore there would be no greed or extortion involved.also would eliminate begging.

just a thought.

[danicast]

You can't just propose such a radical idea (and indeed, unreasonable to some people) and then completely dismiss people who dislike the idea, but are proposing the limits to try and make it work. You can't have everything how you want it on demand.

 

I can't tell if you're really so naive that you think that everything is sunshine or rainbows or if you just want, want, want for yourself.

I'm not naive, I'm democratic and I trust in the gamers. It's a GAME, it supposed to be FUN! The whole idea is to add more fun to the game, not complication. We must trust in the players. Several players said that other games already have adult trades and it works. Why wouldn't work here too? Most of players are adults, I think we must give them a vow of trust.

[edwardelricfreak]

What does "trusting the players" have to do with anything? Considering that there are already players that harass others in trades, I really don't know what this trust thing is about.

[danicast]

What does "trusting the players" have to do with anything? Considering that there are already players that harass others in trades, I really don't know what this trust thing is about.

It's about do not create a large quantity of rules to try to "control" what the players are doing in their trades. We must keep simple and trust the players that they will use the feature in the right way, exactly how they are doing with trading hatchies and eggs so far. People don't need to be over controled in the game, they can be trusted. We need just a set of simple rules like no more than 20 trades a day, as example, and let the rest works by itself. There is no need to create lots and lots of limitations.

[Wolfsong442]

Believe me. You really can't trust people, especially people on the internet.

 

I know most of the DC players, especially the forum goers are awesome people, but you should have seen some of the harassment I got last year for having a CB shimmer >>

 

People do things and be jerks that they'd never normally do in real life because no one knows them.

 

But yeah. I don't see how this would help things. Trading adults isn't needed and the way I see it, if it isn't broken, don't fix it. You'll just end up screwing it up for everyone.

Edited June 14, 2014 by Wolfsong442

[Kovia]

Believe me. You really can't trust people, especially people on the internet.

 

I know most of the DC players, especially the forum goers are awesome people, but you should have seen some of the harassment I got last year for having a CB shimmer >>

 

People do things and be jerks that they'd never normally do in real life because no one knows them.

 

But yeah. I don't see how this would help things. Trading adults isn't needed and the way I see it, if it isn't broken, don't fix it. You'll just end up screwing it up for everyone.

This exactly. I haven't really been harassed or anything, but on other sites people often beg from me and it really gets on my nerves.

Sites have to have rules and limitations or they can't exist at all.

I personally still think the "once it grows up it's yours" rule is working fine, but we'll have to see how the people in charge react. Obviously no matter how much we argue, if TJ shoots it down then it's over.

[Fiona]

Call me cynical, but I do trust the players. To ask for and offer ridiculous things for trade. To work to try to gain the biggest advantage for themselves while giving as little as possible for it. To whine and complain if they can't get what they want. To completely skew the trading market in favor of asking for what is impossible.

 

You came after the prize dragons were in the game, danicast. As much as I love the prizes, I must admit that the impact they've had on trading has been huge, and not particularly for the best. The highest tradeable dragon, realistically, used to be a CB gold. The variety of trades and what was asked for in trade used to be much greater than it is. Now the rare trading and metallic threads are completely dominated by prize dragon trading and cb metals. It's extremely hard to aspire to own cb metals because you almost have to cb prizes or some other super rare to hope to get one in trade.

 

There are niche threads, as I said, where you can offer and ask for particular things. Those work well, and likely wouldn't be very adversely affected by trading adults, because those are threads for people looking for very specific things, like Cinnamon's stripes.

 

But people also don't have much option to make planned lineages with dragons like golds and silvers because unless you have cb metals or very low gen prizes you can't trade for cb metals. That's kind of a shame because the metals make gorgeous checkers.

 

--That issue I outlined with the trade threads? That already happens. "Trusting the players" is only going to result in a more extreme version of the same thing. "Controlling" the players is an important part of any game. There have to be clear rules to make the game balanced and enjoyable for all.

[edwardelricfreak]

But yeah. I don't see how this would help things. Trading adults isn't needed and the way I see it, if it isn't broken, don't fix it. You'll just end up screwing it up for everyone.

I don't see why being needed is a requirement for ANY suggestion.

 

Just because it's not needed doesn't mean it can't be added at some point. We don't need an encyclopedia, but TJ's putting in the effort to put one it.

 

And it won't screw it up for everyone, as there are those who have said they would use it for certain purposes.

 

This isn't attempting to fix anything, but add to the current trading system.

 

I'm just saying, we really don't know how much it will ruin or make better the trade system. I can still see it helping certain areas and ruining others, but it would really have to be done right to get the most benefit.