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[olympe]

two-way transfers really have no place at such a thread, honestly.

 

You're supposed to take and leave simultaneously, which is in no way possible with 2-ways. Its dragging the process, and worse, it's possible that you offered on one egg which you did not get, but yours then is already taken. (which not everyone might be ok with.)

 

It all adds to the clumsyness of "take an egg", compared to the totally easy departures board.

 

 

A PM system would slow gifting, I guess a good many people would not care for getting pms and sending pms just to gift stuff (it will go to departures or AP instead).

No. TAE LAE wasn't about doing things simultaneously, not in the least. You could simply leave something now and take something up to three pages later - even if you "offered" on something and someone else got it because (s)he was there first.

 

Also, people were warned that when offering on a two-way teleports, there was no guarantee that they'd "win", so they were advised to use two-way teleports, too. Or just take the risk and maybe take something later on.

 

ETA (for crossposting):

Another question about Take/Leave: I've offered on an egg that is listed on the two-way trade to leave an AP dummy. I've quoted the post saying I've offered. I've bred something kinda nice as an offering for the thread. Somebody ELSE gets the egg. Do I have to leave the new egg?

Not at all. Or you could choose to leave this new egg now and take something later (within three pages of leaving your egg).

Edited October 12, 2014 by olympe

[Jazeki]

Just noting that there is a new Take an Egg; Leave an Egg thread that will be opening soon. Rehashing the old thread isn't going to do anything at this point.

 

 

(Though I do agree with whitebaron that the taking and leaving should be done simultaneously or one shortly after the other rather than pages back.)

Edited October 12, 2014 by Jazeki

[edwardelricfreak]

Do you think it would work if someone created a new thread that was only for discussing how to potentially reopen TAE LAE? The only thing allowed in the thread would be discussions on how to make a TAE LAE thread work again, preferably only from those of us who would be interested in "moderating" the thread (not DC mods, just your standard thread managers/moderators) at least part of the time, since potential "mods" would have to be the ones implementing the chosen rules. I'm just picturing ruby and _Z_ getting their inboxes flooded with PMs from dozens of us about our suggestions for TAE LAE and that doesn't seem like the most efficient way to come up with a solution. And, at least to me, this thread doesn't really seem like the right place for discussing something specific like TAE LAE rule creation either since right now all the TAE LAE conversations could potentially be drowning out any comments/feedback on other forum features.

This please. I was hoping the "Forum Feedback" thread would be about FORUM feedback, not "TAE LAE thread feedback". It was fine at the start but now it's been seeeeeveral pages since the discussion started. I think that's enough to warrant needing a separate thread.

 

----

 

Gonna edit rules I had in mind going based on some of the discussion I've seen:

 

•Use One-Ways at your Own Risk. If someone takes the egg and doesn't leave one in return, please do not call anyone out.

•Use PMs more than two-way transfers. Two-ways can often end up involving "trading" of sorts. If you want to protect a gift but don't want to just post a one-way transfer link, try posting the lineage for your gift and asking for PMs. Please try to take the FIRST offer; if you have requirements (ex: adopter doesn't have x amount of Golds yet), please give to the first person that meets said requirements.

•If you take a gift, please leave one. TAE LAE works under the assumption that there are always enough gifts in the system because no one takes more than they give. Please try to at least match the number of gifts you took with gifts you leave. You are always free to leave more! You are under no obligation to take anything.

•If you take something nice, leave something nice. "Nice" could be a pretty lineage that follows a pattern such as stairstep (example), even gen (example), etc if you leave a common/uncommon. Also applies to common/uncommon hatchlings. Most people generally like hatchlings of any sort.

•The Gifter is allowed to set guidelines to follow, but these do NOT have to be carried out. It's usually nice and common courtesy to do so, but no one is obligated. No one may call out or otherwise harass another user if they don't follow the gifter's wishes.

•If you take something, you must tell that user what you took (via PM/reply). This keeps the thread organized in helping others know something has been taken.

•PM a Thread Moderator if you have a problem. If you see rule-breaking, please report it to us instead of spamming up the thread with more off-topic replies! Any harassment, either from gifters OR adopters is to be reported.

•This is not a trading thread. While asking for a "dummy" (ex: a random egg/hatchling off the AP) for two-way transfers is fine, asking for specific dummies, even if they are common, is not okay. Rejecting ANY offer is cherrypicking and essentially trying to 'pick out' a specific dummy. The two-way "transfer" becomes a trade at that point. Please try to pick the first dummy offered if you use a two-way transfer.

•Any conversation on the thread should center around the gifted eggs and hatchlings and should remain positive. Gifters may not force their wishes for their eggs onto adopters, call out other users for failing to give back, or comment on the outcome of gifts that they found disappointing. The tone of the thread should be welcoming, positive, and generous.

 

EDIT: well it seems a new thread is in the works. Not liking some of the rules; they make the thread seem too "automated". It already feels like it will just be like most of the trading threads out there, where all you post is what you have and what you're looking for, nothing else. :\

 

Never mind. I probably won't ever use the thread again. Might as well just leave a gift in Departures to save others the hassle of needing to leave something. Oh well.

Edited October 12, 2014 by edwardelricfreak

[olympe]

Well, it was three pages. Depending on traffic, that was a time span of about two hours.

 

However, if you want to cap it - why don't you make it a rule that you have 1 hour to pick something if you left something first?

[Beldarius]

...The rules on the new "Take and Leave" thread feel to restrictive to me.

 

I was one of the people who actually followed the rules of the original thread, and used two-ways the correct way (by accepting the dummy from the first person who actually left something). Now it kind of feels actually following the rules became a punishable act.

 

If users aren't allowed to prevent theft on their own (even through PM), then I'm probably never going to use that thread again.

 

PS. I will still be using two-ways in the Departures thread since I like to know where my eggs and hatchies go (after that, I don't really mind what happens). ...If you think that feels like a trade, then you can just go ahead and get the Departures thread closed, too. Since apparently everything with two-ways is now a trade.

[Oddsoxdi]

...The rules on the new "Take and Leave" thread feel to restrictive to me.

 

I was one of the people who actually followed the rules of the original thread, and used two-ways the correct way (by accepting the dummy from the first person who actually left something). Now it kind of feels actually following the rules became a punishable act.

 

If users aren't allowed to prevent theft on their own (even through PM), then I'm probably never going to use that thread again.

 

..snip

Yes, I feel the same way. I also used two-ways correctly, to accept a dummy as was stated in the original rules. If only one-ways are all that are allowed I won't be using it either. If two-way transfers are now somehow 'illegal' or frowned on, I'll just be dumping any gifts to the AP.

[olympe]

Same here. Considering we cannot do anything but leave stuff - and maybe, if we're very lucky, take something, this is no different from the Community Notice Boards - Departures.

 

As long as we cannot do anything to prevent theft, it's going to happen more often than not. Which stops a fun game from being just that.

[Beldarius]

...I just realized one way to prevent theft is to make the trade forum invisible to people who aren't registered. Basically not allowing anybody to see any of the trade threads unless they have a forum profile. (Just to clarify, I'm not talking about the entire forum. Just one section.)

 

Or removing the "hide scroll" feature entirely. Who needs that anyway? If people are scared of their eggs dying, they can just fog them. AND it will help catch and report people who actually break rules (think inappropriate names and the like).

Edited October 13, 2014 by Beldarius

[Ponie]

Yes, I feel the same way. I also used two-ways correctly, to accept a dummy as was stated in the original rules. If only one-ways are all that are allowed I won't be using it either. If two-way transfers are now somehow 'illegal' or frowned on, I'll just be dumping any gifts to the AP.

Yeah. Look, I'm just happy we have something and will probably use it at one point, but on a quick glance through the thread, it's pretty easy to see why the switch to two-way transfers was made in the first place. As it currently stands, I'd hesitate to leave anything I'm too attached to. Which is fine, as it still is a fun concept and perhaps a gifting thread was never the appropriate place for those kinds of eggs in the first place. I'll miss it, but hopefully the kinks in the new one will be worked out in time.

 

That said, if the moderators still intend it to be a place where valuable dragons are regularly available, I'd definitely be in favor of re-instituting two-ways or using a PM system as suggested earlier. I haven't joined in the new TAE just yet as I'm busy with other things at the moment, but I've been keeping an eye on the new thread and there are definitely people treating it like departures. At the moment, it's sort of a "leave at your own risk" type thing. I understand why we most likely will not be able to get two-ways back, as it sounds like it was more of a hassle than a help, but the PM system seems pretty sound to me and I'm certainly open to other suggestions. Once again though, perhaps exchanging rare eggs was never an appropriate use of TAE and maybe things will move more smoothly if the community moves more towards pretty lineages or something else that poses a less attractive target. I'll miss the shinies if it does, but people also do some really cool things with their breeding dragons and there would certainly still be a place for it.

[Imbecamiel]

Or removing the "hide scroll" feature entirely. Who needs that anyway? If people are scared of their eggs dying, they can just fog them. AND it will help catch and report people who actually break rules (think inappropriate names and the like).

Some people hide their scroll names because they've had people target them for whatever reason. Or because they have valuable dragons, and have had people pestering them for gifts/trades. (Hard to do that if you don't know who owns the dragons.) There are those who will also target people running experiments for Neglecteds. Hiding your scroll name is one of the tools we have to make it more difficult for anyone who's, say, trolling hatcheries for interesting eggs to target people they may have a grudge against.

 

Fogging is not always effective protection. You do have to un-fog eventually if you're going to get the egg enough views to live, and a determined viewbomber can kill an egg in a remarkably short time. Most of the time people may have no need to be paranoid about such chances... but there are times when you do have cause.

 

I don't hide my scroll name personally, but I have at times in the past, and I do understand why some would choose to do so.

Edited October 13, 2014 by Imbecamiel

[ewi]

So now instead of "use one-way transfers at your own risk" we are at "two-way trades are not allowed"? Wow. For me this New TAE LAE looks exactly the same as Departures thread, is there any use for it if we can't make sure that our gifts (yes, I know, a gift is a gift, we shouldn't care where it goes) are safe from theft and other people are fair with the thread itself?

 

I'm really glad that the new thread has its own forum account, I'm sure it makes work around it a lot easier, but I don't get this 'one-way only' rule. How does it help?

Well, I guess if I don't like it I don't need to use it. It takes a lot of fun and positive energy out of forum life.

[Imbecamiel]

Thought that just occurred to me: a big part of the "wanting to know who took it" issue could be avoided if trades/transfers were added to the actions log page.

 

I.e. -

 

"[insert scroll name here] accepted your one-way transfer of [egg code]."

"You accepted a trade with [insert scroll name here]."

"You declined a trade offer from [insert scroll name here]."

 

ACTUALLY... now I think of it, that could be really useful in other cases too. I've accidentally declined the wrong trades before, and if I had the name I could've explained and asked them if they would re-offer. Maybe I should suggest it over in the Cave Feedback thread...

Edited October 13, 2014 by Imbecamiel

[Beldarius]

Thought that just occurred to me: a big part of the "wanting to know who took it" issue could be avoided if trades/transfers were added to the actions log page.

 

I.e. -

 

"[insert scroll name here] accepted your one-way transfer of [egg code]."

"You accepted a trade with [insert scroll name here]."

"You declined a trade offer from [insert scroll name here]."

 

ACTUALLY... now I think of it, that could be really useful in other cases too. I've accidentally declined the wrong trades before, and if I had the name I could've explained and asked them if they would re-offer. Maybe I should suggest it over in the Cave Feedback thread...

OK, this is the best idea I've seen so far. This sounds like something that warrants an entirely new thread in the Suggestions forum.

 

If something like this could be implemented, I'm withdrawing my opinion on rendering the trade forum invisible.

[AngelicSabyne]

...The rules on the new "Take and Leave" thread feel to restrictive to me.

 

I was one of the people who actually followed the rules of the original thread, and used two-ways the correct way (by accepting the dummy from the first person who actually left something). Now it kind of feels actually following the rules became a punishable act.

 

If users aren't allowed to prevent theft on their own (even through PM), then I'm probably never going to use that thread again.

 

PS. I will still be using two-ways in the Departures thread since I like to know where my eggs and hatchies go (after that, I don't really mind what happens). ...If you think that feels like a trade, then you can just go ahead and get the Departures thread closed, too. Since apparently everything with two-ways is now a trade.

I don't like it, either. The only way I could see myself using the thread as it stands is to dump any non-rare eggs I get from breeding. I doubt I'd be putting my rare eggs up there, since I would only do it by PM now, and I have a feeling I'll be flooded with PMs every time I offer a copper or two. =\

[Meg_752]

I know that if you ask for a dummy egg, you should pick the first one you receive, but what if you put a condition in the post such as, "I would prefer if it went to someone with less than 3 Trios."? Would that still be permitted, even though you're technically choosing who the egg goes to?

[olympe]

I don't like it, either. The only way I could see myself using the thread as it stands is to dump any non-rare eggs I get from breeding. I doubt I'd be putting my rare eggs up there, since I would only do it by PM now, and I have a feeling I'll be flooded with PMs every time I offer a copper or two. =\

You may not use PMs to send your dragons away. Newest rule, page 2 at the bottom (I think).

 

I know that if you ask for a dummy egg, you should pick the first one you receive, but what if you put a condition in the post such as, "I would prefer if it went to someone with less than 3 Trios."? Would that still be permitted, even though you're technically choosing who the egg goes to?

Nope. If you want to leave an egg, you have to post a one-way transfer in the thread. And if you do that, you have no way to ensure it goes where it should - although renaming the parents might do the trick.

[F.ury]

...I just realized one way to prevent theft is to make the trade forum invisible to people who aren't registered. Basically not allowing anybody to see any of the trade threads unless they have a forum profile. (Just to clarify, I'm not talking about the entire forum. Just one section.)

I'd love it if the Trade section became invisible to non-members, just like the Dragon Requests section, but I doubt it will happen. I've suggested this several times before in this thread and it's been rejected every time because people seem to think it wouldn't be "fair" to those who don't have a forum account and want to trade using the forums. I really do not understand that line of thinking at all because if you want to trade via the DC forums then you can just join the DC Forums. There's nothing stopping you from becoming a member. Trading and Gifting via the DC Forums should be a privilege for DC Forum members only. Making the Trading section available to members only still wouldn't stop the theft because members can still log on anonymously, but I think it might help cut down on some of the theft and prevent some of the "junk" offers I constantly get when I have rare things up for trade.

[AngelicSabyne]

You may not use PMs to send your dragons away. Newest rule, page 2 at the bottom (I think).

 

Nope. If you want to leave an egg, you have to post a one-way transfer in the thread. And if you do that, you have no way to ensure it goes where it should - although renaming the parents might do the trick.

Wow, I totally glossed over that rule. Well, that settles it, I won't be using that thread.

[olympe]

Maybe we should create another new thread that's actually supposed to be a surprise trading thread? ("Potluck Trading - See what you can find!)

Rules: Pretty much like the old TAE LAE, but with two-way teleports being mandatory?

[Ponie]

Maybe we should create another new thread that's actually supposed to be a surprise trading thread? ("Potluck Trading - See what you can find!)

Rules: Pretty much like the old TAE LAE, but with two-way teleports being mandatory?

I like this idea.

[F.ury]

Who's actually moderating the new TAE LAE thread anyway? Looking back through this thread, doing one way transfers via PM seemed to be one of the most popular solutions for preventing the theft of rare eggs. There were only a few people who seemed opposed to the idea of PMs and they were people who just didn't want to deal with getting all those messages in their inbox. I didn't see anyone comment who thought that one way transfers via PM could be considered trading and yet the reason TAE LAE gave for disallowing PMs is because it's considered trading. I just have to wonder why the people running the new TAE LAE decided to ignore the vast majority of user comments and allow only one way transfers and no PMs. Right now, the new TAE LAE is exactly like TJ's tool but with forum posts. At this point, I see no reason why the new TAE LAE even needs to exist if it's operating under the same exact set of rules as TJ's tool.

 

Edited October 13, 2014 by F.ury

[Beldarius]

Maybe we should create another new thread that's actually supposed to be a surprise trading thread? ("Potluck Trading - See what you can find!)

Rules: Pretty much like the old TAE LAE, but with two-way teleports being mandatory?

I love this idea and I'm all up for it - we just need to check the forum to make sure there isn't a thread like this already.

 

EDIT: An additional notion to F.ury's post above mine... I've been going through the new TAE LAE thread, and I'm noticing that there's MORE theft than in the original TAE LAE thread. Most of the transfers have been claimed and there's nothing being left behind. It appears writing the rules in short format didn't help at all - people still aren't obeying them. ...TAE LAE isn't supposed to be the Departures thread.

 

Just to make sure, if I left something in TAE LAE, I wouldn't look for anything in return. But leaving something for OTHERS to take is the point of the thread, and that isn't happening. I'd say the entire purpose of the thread is void if if turns into another Departures.

Edited October 13, 2014 by Beldarius

[F.ury]

I like the idea of the "Potluck Trading" thread but what if we called it "Potluck Gifting" instead and allowed both two way trades and one way transfers via PM? The premise could be "If you take a gift from the pot, you must leave another gift in its place". If it's called "Potluck Trading" and only uses two way trades, I'd be worried that people are going to wait for the best offers on their eggs and just turn it into another standard trading thread. In that case, I think it'd probably get shut down for just being another trading thread.

Edited October 13, 2014 by F.ury

[Ponie]

I like the idea of the "Potluck Trading" thread but what if we called it "Potluck Gifting" instead and allowed both two way trades and one way transfers via PM? The premise could be "If you take a gift from the pot, you must leave another gift in its place". If it's called "Potluck Trading" and only uses two way trades, I'd be worried that people are going to wait for the best offers on their eggs and just turn it into another standard trading thread. In that case, I think it'd probably get shut down for just being another trading thread.

I'd be worried about running into the same problems as TAE/LAE did. It seems to me like the rules are much stricter for gifting than trading threads and that the line between gifting and trading's kind of fuzzy. Maybe just make it clear in the OP how it works? Or maybe just call it "Dragon Cave Potluck". But I think by only allowing 2-way transfers and PMs, we'll eliminate the problem with stealing and, as a result, much of the problem with harassment. Although it should be made clear that everyone will leave what they can afford and no one is to be insulted for leaving something relatively common. Maybe recycle the old TAE/LAE list for what is and is not acceptable, but say only the thread mods can comment if someone repeatedly leaves junk eggs?

 

EDIT: The 2-ways are really convenient, but if we start having a problem with trading, we could always make it PM only.

 

EDIT II: And since we probably will have people leaving and not taking, maybe give DC newbies one or two freebies while they're getting set up? Or have "free" eggs? I don't mind straight out gifting, so long as I'm aware that's what I'm doing. This would be an awesome problem to have, but it's something to keep in mind if we're going to be eliminating the thief factor. I don't like the idea of forcing people to take something they don't want whenever they want to give something to the thread.

Edited October 13, 2014 by Ponie

[olympe]

I have a feeling that the new TAE LAE is so strict about only using one-way transfers and only in the thread because of some modly regulations: If it's a gifting thread, you have to use one-way transfers, or it would be trading. It's the only explanation that makes any sense to me.

 

So, calling a new thread "Potluck Gifting" while making two-way teleports or one-way teleports given out via PM mandatory would clash with the mods.

 

 

On another note, do we want to add general rules like "no killing, no trading away eggs found here" to the thread? After all, it is possible to blacklist people who don't act accordingly. There's precedence, for example with TGT.

Edited October 13, 2014 by olympe