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[Oasis]

the take and leave thing feels like it would be easy to cheat (ie just canceling the trade immediately after picking up the wanted egg)

Edited October 11, 2014 by Oasis

[olympe]

These are the SITE rules, which of course supercede any customary rules you might have in addition to the site rules.

That's part of why people use two-way trades instead. There's nothing in the site rules against using trade links, is there?

[Obscure_Trash]

But Sock said they don't need more people doing their work, and that they're willing to do it and so on.

I said we didn't need a bunch of mods for one thread. That's really silly. And a waste of our time to search out and promote when we could just be getting more sectionals period. =\

 

My point also had nothing to do with numbers, really. My point was that putting more mods on the thread doesn't solve any of the issues of why it was closed. All that does it put more people on warning users. It does not address any of the issues users reported.

 

I'll just quote my original post here since I don't know how many even saw it:

 

We were getting multiplr reports every single week not only on call outs (for which the thread was temp closed for several times in the past and has a giant mod post on it) but also on users trading in the thread. Asking for specific "dummies". Even with warning/PMing, reports have stayed steady on these. Users asking for trades is something we had been getting more and more reports on.

 

I think if users hash out a better way to handle the thread, a new topic may be considered. I am not promising it will be, but if you worked out a new system, then maybe. But what we had now definitely wasn't working for many.

 

I understand that not everyone saw these issues - but that was due to users quickly reporting issues and mods quickly taking care of it. Mods edited posts, users deleted edited posts. No evidence left for others to see.

 

I also get that people are angry and disappointed at the outcome, but just saying that mods are lazy isn't going to solve anything or get you anywhere.

 

Is there an easier way to get to it than having to go back to page 150 in this thread?

 

Bookmark it. Or set your history to not erase and then just remember it's at "dcrecords" when you start typing, it will come up.

[F.ury]

Is there an easier way to get to it than having to go back to page 150 in this thread?

 

Bookmark it. Or set your history to not erase and then just remember it's at "dcrecords" when you start typing, it will come up.

TJ's take and leave tool is now a pinned topic in the Trading subsection.

[olympe]

I said we didn't need a bunch of mods for one thread. That's really silly. And a waste of our time to search out and promote when we could just be getting more sectionals period. =\

 

My point also had nothing to do with numbers, really. My point was that putting more mods on the thread doesn't solve any of the issues of why it was closed. All that does it put more people on warning users. It does not address any of the issues users reported.

 

I'll just quote my original post here since I don't know how many even saw it:

 

 

 

I understand that not everyone saw these issues - but that was due to users quickly reporting issues and mods quickly taking care of it. Mods edited posts, users deleted edited posts. No evidence left for others to see.

 

I also get that people are angry and disappointed at the outcome, but just saying that mods are lazy isn't going to solve anything or get you anywhere.

 

Is there an easier way to get to it than having to go back to page 150 in this thread?

 

Bookmark it. Or set your history to not erase and then just remember it's at "dcrecords" when you start typing, it will come up.

In other words: It's not going to happen - unless we create a set of rules that every idiot can read through in thirty seconds, make it so nobody may say anything but what they left and took, nobody may post anything but one-way teleports (and please be quiet if other people don't give back anything to the thread because of the rule stated in one-way teleports). Or we can just use TJ's new tool and be happy about it.

 

Lost cause is lost. As usual.

[AngelicSabyne]

Bookmark it. Or set your history to not erase and then just remember it's at "dcrecords" when you start typing, it will come up.

In other words: It's not going to happen - unless we create a set of rules that every idiot can read through in thirty seconds, make it so nobody may say anything but what they left and took, nobody may post anything but one-way teleports (and please be quiet if other people don't give back anything to the thread because of the rule stated in one-way teleports). Or we can just use TJ's new tool and be happy about it.

 

Lost cause is lost. As usual.

Pretty much my thoughts as well. Not that it's terribly surprising.

[Frodo]

The thread title was : Take An Egg - Leave An Egg

The title alone, says it all, really.

 

Rules from the thread:

*When you take an egg or hatchling, leave something in return as soon as you can.

When you take something, you are making a promise to post a transfer link offering a gift from your scroll for another player to take. Taking something and planning to give nothing back in return is stealing from the thread, and isn't fair to the other players or, especially, to the person who offered the lovely egg or hatchling you are taking.

Remember- the dragons may be nothing more than pictures on the internet, but the people breeding and offering them are real people, and every single player deserves to have their generosity rewarded with respect, not theft.

 

 

*Do not claim something if you can't replace it by offering your return gift within 5 hours or less. If you know you won't be able to put up a replacement offer in that time frame, leave that offer for someone else. Otherwise the thread will have less to offer the next player who comes along.

 

Yet some users continued to break the rules, and steal from the thread by not posting, and not giving anything back to the thread. That is NOT okay, so two-ways were used, as a way of making the user give back to the thread... nothing more.

 

 

As for 'conditions'... it's perfectly reasonable to want your gift to be treated with respect. It's also common courtesy to treat a gift with respect.

 

From the rules:

*If you don't want your offered egg bitten, traded, sent to the AP or anything else, say so.

Otherwise the person taking it is free to do what they like with it.

 

*If you claim an egg that had conditions from the gifter, such as 'do not bite' or 'please name', remember that it is your responsibility to follow their request.

If you're going to give it to somebody else, you need to ask the person you are giving it to to follow the same conditions that were asked of you. Please do not send an egg that you received with conditions to the AP, because then you have no way to make sure the new owner will honor those conditions. This shows respect for the person who gave you the egg/hatchling in the first place.

[Obscure_Trash]

Bookmark it. Or set your history to not erase and then just remember it's at "dcrecords" when you start typing, it will come up.

In other words: It's not going to happen - unless we create a set of rules that every idiot can read through in thirty seconds, make it so nobody may say anything but what they left and took, nobody may post anything but one-way teleports (and please be quiet if other people don't give back anything to the thread because of the rule stated in one-way teleports). Or we can just use TJ's new tool and be happy about it.

 

Lost cause is lost. As usual.

That's not what I said. I'm saying users need to worth with ruby/_Z_ if they want to try a new thread. I don't know why people went away from discussing how a new thread should be run because if the thread is going to be re-opened, that's the discussion that needs to happen. Just saying "thread mods" doesn't address any of the issues.

 

The issues with the thread were pointed out when it was closed. Those are what you need to focus on finding a way to work around/with so a new thread wouldn't have the same exact issues.

 

But at this point, I suggest we all take a break to calm down and come back to discuss later.

[TJ09]

And yet, you're still punishing everyone involved with TAE LAE because you couldn't handle the behavior of some users. On the one hand you're saying that you were willing to handle "the problem" and don't need more people doing so, yet you're keeping the thread closed because of "the problem".

You're making certain assumptions here. Especially with the phrase "couldn't handle."

 

Mods have a finite amount of time. This time is allocated according to some level of prioritization. When a single thread is taking up noticeably more time than other threads, then there's a systemic problem there. The mods have tried to solve that underlying problem. There were numerous warnings in the topic. But it continued. Having more mods wouldn't change any of that; there are still better uses of a mod's time than focusing disproportionate effort in a single thread.

 

Which is to say, "the problem" (as you call it) showed no signs of going away. The only course of action, then, was to continuously clean up after "the problem." That is not what mods are there for.

[olympe]

Rules are nice. But totally worthless if you cannot enforce them. Which is what led to the numerous occasions of "calling members out". (I don't know why some people tried trading, though. No idea.) And what you (mods) seem to insist on is that we may create all the rules we want, as long as we don't implement any way to ensure that they're being followed. That's what mods are for. (As long as it's only the forum rules or section rules.)

 

Also, the discussion has probably shifted because there's absolutely no word from your modly side on what might and might not be acceptable. That's worse than letting us try and find a needle in a hay stack.

Edited October 11, 2014 by olympe

[Fiona]

I don't know why people went away from discussing how a new thread should be run because if the thread is going to be re-opened, that's the discussion that needs to happen.

I did actually suggest a way to run a new thread, near the bottom of the last page. It got buried in the argument that was happening around and after about whether the mods were appropriately handling the thread.

 

I think it's clear that the rules of the former thread weren't working. However good the intent of the OP and the mods, there were problems. The forum mods' response was to close the thread. I have no problem with that, or how they do their jobs. I would like to find a way that a TaE/LaE thread can run without all the problems. I've seen two suggestions so far here that I think have possibilities.

[AngelicSabyne]

Rules are nice. But totally worthless if you cannot enforce them. Which is what led to the numerous occasions of "calling members out". (I don't know why some people tried trading, though. No idea.) And what you (mods) seem to insist on is that we may create all the rules we want, as long as we don't implement any way to ensure that they're being followed. That's what mods are for. (As long as it's only the forum rules or section rules.)

 

Also, the discussion has probably shifted because there's absolutely no word from your modly side on what might and might not be acceptable. That's worse than letting us try and find a needle in a hay stack.

What Olympe said.

 

What I started seeing more and more of were people violating the very title of the thread. Last time I checked, the thread wasn't titled 'Take an Egg, Maybe Kindasorta Think About Leaving an Egg if You Feel Like It'. There were a fair number of eggs being taken on one-way teleports by users who were not respecting the spirit of the thread. Adding to the mess, those users kept their names hidden, so even if there was a way to report what was going on (which it seems there was), there wasn't a way to track and/or enforce the rules about leaving eggs. So of course people are going to be frustrated, of course they're going to vent and call others out on not leaving eggs. What else are they logically supposed to do? Would reporting really do anything to stem that when no one has a clue where their eggs have gone? (Especially since there are likely many of us breeders who would be more than happy to set aside an egg for someone who asks them via PM, provided they ask politely. I know I would.)

 

People started using two-way trades because they wanted to make certain that eggs were left in the thread for others, particularly if they were offering a rare egg. It wasn't a perfect system, but it at least ensured that rares wouldn't just get snatched up in minutes without anything to replace them. (No opinion or clue on trading, however. I didn't really see it.)

 

As far as conditions are concerned...yes, a few users had enough conditions on their eggs that it made them seem a little silly. But you know what? That wasn't every user. F'rinstance, what were my conditions? That people enjoy and take good care of their new babies. That's it.

 

So how about throwing us a bone here? There are a number of us who have expressed an interest in the thread being revived; there are also several of us who have offered to help mod the thread if necessary. How about working with us to work something out that will be satisfactory to the majority of us (since you can't please everyone) instead of sitting there cryptically talking about 'problems' the old thread had?

Edited October 11, 2014 by AngelicSabyne

[Obscure_Trash]

I did actually suggest a way to run a new thread, near the bottom of the last page. It got buried in the argument that was happening around and after about whether the mods were appropriately handling the thread.

 

I think it's clear that the rules of the former thread weren't working. However good the intent of the OP and the mods, there were problems. The forum mods' response was to close the thread. I have no problem with that, or how they do their jobs. I would like to find a way that a TaE/LaE thread can run without all the problems. I've seen two suggestions so far here that I think have possibilities.

Yeah, I do know there were a few posts - sorry for implying there weren't any recent ones!

 

~

 

I see a lot of people going "worth with me here" but I've posted a reminder on the issues that need tackled, tried to encourage people back to discussing how to differently handle a thrad, and already told you the next step to take. Talk it over with ruby/_Z_. I'm not sure what else you're looking for? We can't do what we don't know you want.

[olympe]

The big question is: What kind of options do we have as consequences for rule-breaking?

 

Blacklisting someone from a thread, for example, doesn't work if we cannot ensure that they really cannot enter the thread any more - or they'd just lurk and take what they want.

 

Or, even more simple: Can someone be warned for breaking thread rules? And if so, for which rules is this possible? (Obviously it's possible for people posting trading requests where they shouldn't or for people calling out other users. But how about people who steal eggs from the thread?)

 

*sigh* Sometimes, I really hate rules. Especially if they serve to protect the wrong people.

[Fiona]

The PM system for passing eggs would work to protect the thread from people who just take eggs without leaving any. It also serves to enforce blacklists.

 

I've considered PMing ruby with an idea of making a forum account for TaE/LaE. I wouldn't be able to run the thread alone, but am reasonably sure I could come up with a set of rules that work.

[whitebaron]

Or, even more simple: Can someone be warned for breaking thread rules? And if so, for which rules is this possible? (Obviously it's possible for people posting trading requests where they shouldn't or for people calling out other users. But how about people who steal eggs from the thread?)

as already stated - Thread rules are not rules of the site - if you want to keep anything hidden from the public, you'd need to go somewhere else. the forum is public and transfers ARE without strings.

[F.ury]

The PM system for passing eggs would work to protect the thread from people who just take eggs without leaving any. It also serves to enforce blacklists.

 

I've considered PMing ruby with an idea of making a forum account for TaE/LaE. I wouldn't be able to run the thread alone, but am reasonably sure I could come up with a set of rules that work.

Do you think it would work if someone created a new thread that was only for discussing how to potentially reopen TAE LAE? The only thing allowed in the thread would be discussions on how to make a TAE LAE thread work again, preferably only from those of us who would be interested in "moderating" the thread (not DC mods, just your standard thread managers/moderators) at least part of the time, since potential "mods" would have to be the ones implementing the chosen rules. I'm just picturing ruby and _Z_ getting their inboxes flooded with PMs from dozens of us about our suggestions for TAE LAE and that doesn't seem like the most efficient way to come up with a solution. And, at least to me, this thread doesn't really seem like the right place for discussing something specific like TAE LAE rule creation either since right now all the TAE LAE conversations could potentially be drowning out any comments/feedback on other forum features.

 

 

as already stated - Thread rules are not rules of the site - if you want to keep anything hidden from the public, you'd need to go somewhere else. the forum is public and transfers ARE without strings.

People are still allowed to post things like "Please don't kill or abandon this egg and I'd really prefer it if you gave it a name"; other users just aren't obligated by DC policy to follow these "requirements". But that doesn't mean that posting "requirements" is against DC policy, it just means that, according to DC policy, other users do not have to follow any additional "requirements" you post. And I don't see why a thread would not be allowed to ask users to follow additional rules. Just look at TGT. If you receive a gift from TGT (generally via a one way transfer) it must grow up and become an adult on your scroll; if you trade, abandon, kill etc. then TGT is allowed to greylist or blacklist you from the TGT thread. You won't face any consequences from TJ/DC if you don't follow TGT rules, but TGT has every right to "ban" you from their thread.

Edited October 12, 2014 by F.ury

[whitebaron]

Straight from the tgt rules:

• If you want TGT to have jurisdiction over your egg/hatchling, only give the Teleport link in a PM.

• Teleport links given in the thread are considered FFA's (free for all), and can be used any way the person getting the egg desires. This also includes dummy trades since there is no way of proving who got the egg in the end.

 

Take an egg was the ONLY trading thread out there that relied on public transfer links and tried to protect them just by appealing to the takers honor.

[olympe]

I guess the PM system is the only one we're likely allowed to use. Unless we may use two-way transfers (requesting a dummy egg and something being left for the thread) to avoid cluttering our Inboxes.

[whitebaron]

two-way transfers really have no place at such a thread, honestly.

 

You're supposed to take and leave simultaneously, which is in no way possible with 2-ways. Its dragging the process, and worse, it's possible that you offered on one egg which you did not get, but yours then is already taken. (which not everyone might be ok with.)

 

It all adds to the clumsyness of "take an egg", compared to the totally easy departures board.

 

 

A PM system would slow gifting, I guess a good many people would not care for getting pms and sending pms just to gift stuff (it will go to departures or AP instead).

[Oddsoxdi]

Wait...what? Where are we told we can no longer use the 2-way links? How many pages back is it?

[purplehaze]

Wait...what? Where are we told we can no longer use the 2-way links? How many pages back is it?

Not a rule. Just some people's idea. It was a problem for some people in the way it was sometimes used on the TAE/LAE thread.

[whitebaron]

Not a rule. Just some people's idea. It was a problem for some people in the way it was sometimes used on the TAE/LAE thread.

To elaborate a little more:

 

Two ways iffer the posdibilities that:

• One egg races ahead of another, making it only leaving without taking, maybe contrary to the users original intent (offer on something nice, thus give something you'd ordinarilly keep
• Cherry Pick from Offers, or straight out decline some of the dummies..
• Just being absent. Your dummy egg offer is unheard until the gifter is back from his long vacation weekend.

[F.ury]

two-way transfers really have no place at such a thread, honestly.

 

You're supposed to take and leave simultaneously, which is in no way possible with 2-ways. Its dragging the process, and worse, it's possible that you offered on one egg which you did not get, but yours then is already taken. (which not everyone might be ok with.)

 

It all adds to the clumsyness of "take an egg", compared to the totally easy departures board.

 

 

A PM system would slow gifting, I guess a good many people would not care for getting pms and sending pms just to gift stuff (it will go to departures or AP instead).

If you think PMs are clumsy and you would rather just post one way transfers on TAE LAE, you are free to do so. If you think PMs are clumsy and you would rather use the Departures thread instead of TAE LAE, you are also free to do so. No user is required to use the TAE LAE thread if they don't want to. A gifting thread does not have to appeal to every single forum member. There are many users who love threads like The Giving Tree or The Eggy Giveaway; I don't generally care for threads like that because I think they take too long. However, I don't want The Giving Tree or The Eggy Giveaway to change because I know that many users prefer that sort of format. It sounds like you want super fast gifting, which is fine. But that does not mean that every single gifting thread must be super fast. Again, if you think that a certain method of gifting is too slow or a certain gifting thread is "clumsy", then you do not have to use that method of gifting or that specific gifting thread. The "point" of TAE LAE is to take an egg and leave an egg; this goal can still be accomplished via PM if you are worried about "theft", even if it's a bit slower. The "point" of TAE LAE has never been "take and leave eggs as fast as you possibly can". I am also almost positive that one way transfers will always be allowed in TAE LAE; you just don't get to complain or call out other users if someone takes your egg/hatchling and doesn't leave anything in return.

[Ayelldee]

Another question about Take/Leave: I've offered on an egg that is listed on the two-way trade to leave an AP dummy. I've quoted the post saying I've offered. I've bred something kinda nice as an offering for the thread. Somebody ELSE gets the egg. Do I have to leave the new egg?