2021-08-22 - August Dragon Release

[Modiano]

Reading this thread is stressful, hope the more anxious people are okay.

I can't figure out if these posts are hateful, but some do seem to use harsh language. It isn't easy to figure out someone's intent by just reading, sometimes even with tone indicators.

Personally, I don't really care that there are 2 alts that require Earthquake out of the hundred dragons already in the game. We aren't being forced to get them, sure it is annoying for lineage building but it can still be done with patience and collaboration with other users (interacting with other people is horrifying, I feel you /lh)

[Arkee]

6 minutes ago, MissK. said:

 

I think it's because it's been a lot of releases like that in a short span of time, while this wasn't something that had really happened before. Since the start of the year we got 3 BSA-based canto variants, then 2 more at the birthday release, along with pink sapphires which require abandoning, electrics that require stunning, nilias that require double fertility, and now these ones. That's 5 breeds with action-related variants, if we count the variants themselves it's 9. Considering this was a new development in the 15 years of DC's existence, it feels like a lot within a few months.

Yeah, probably.

 

And yet, I don't think it's worth the amount of unchecked salt/entitlement those past few threads have been getting. It's still just 9 breeds among 200+ and, aside from this one, pink sapphs and green cantos, they don't require endangering the eggs.

 

Sure, maybe it would be best if things were introduced a little slower, so those who don't like all the change at once could acclimate to it all, but there would still be folks who don't like EQ or other BSAs for this usage regardless of the interval between releases 😕

 

[Modiano]

8 minutes ago, Long_Before_Sunrise said:

The suggestion thread is just a place for players to go to have discussions among themselves.

We're not?

Who is the client if not the players?

My opinion (this thread makes me feel like I have to point this out, seriously?)

No one is the client of the artists, they haven't been asked to do this. They are doing this because they care about Dragon Cave. They aren't doing this for money or recognition, they are doing this out of love for DC. We aren't being catered because it's not for us primarily.

[KageSora]

25 minutes ago, Arkee said:

"Ugh, I have to interact with other players to get certain breeds :("

The thing is, that never used to be required.  People were understandably upset about having a breed added to the game that required interaction with others players when prior to that you were able to collect every breed without interacting with a single other person.  Sure it'd be harder, but it wasn't needed to obtain things.

 

People are understandably distressed seeing a previously solo game where you could--theoretically--collect  everything yourself head in a direction that forces you to rely on other players.

 

25 minutes ago, Arkee said:

(As if lineage making is a make or break deal for every breed in a collecting game...)

True, it's not make or break for everybody--but it's also not wrong for people to express "I make lineages and these are not viable for reliable lineage making, therefore they're useless to me so I won't collect them".

 

5 minutes ago, Long_Before_Sunrise said:

The suggestion thread is just a place for players to go to have discussions among themselves.

...Sadly, I think you're largely correct since a fair amount of things there tend to simply be completely ignored for ages on end and never implemented or even at least shot down...

[Modiano]

I thought of something!

IF the Volcano eggs do have a third gender, maybe using precog nullifies it? Either a mechanic or a glitch

[MissK.]

1 minute ago, Arkee said:

Yeah, probably.

 

And yet, I don't think it's worth the amount of unchecked salt/entitlement those past few threads have been getting. It's still just 9 breeds among 200+ and, aside from this one, pink sapphs and green cantos, they don't require endangering the eggs.

 

Sure, maybe it would be best if things were introduced a little slower, so those who don't like all the change at once could acclimate to it all, but there would still be folks who don't like EQ or other BSAs for this usage regardless of the interval between releases 😕

 

 

The thing is, at least for my part, I would rather not have this be a trend for regular dragon breeds. We have NDs and zombies, things that don't exactly require raising a dragon lovingly, and I am 100% fine with that (I own both). But this EQ situation was not a one-time thing after all, and I can see why that might be upsetting because it means it could just keep happening for various breeds in the future. I don't think it's so much the one or two breeds that upset people, but that they set the game up for a different trajectory than before.

[KageSora]

28 minutes ago, Falorni said:

...no, not at all?  We haven't hired or commissioned these artists to do the sprites for us (with mmmmaybe the exception of DRs where artists help in creating specific concepts).

I suspect this is going to come down to a clash in views.

 

Some would agree that since no money is being paid, we aren't the clients.

 

Others, however, consider the playerbase to be the clientele for a game.

 

We're not clients in the strict sense that we aren't paying for tailor-made art, but in general players are the intended end-users of game assets so it's not unreasonable for the intended end-users to be distressed when it requires they use a largely unpopular mechanic to obtain.

14 minutes ago, MissK. said:

The thing is, at least for my part, I would rather not have this be a trend for regular dragon breeds. We have NDs and zombies, things that don't exactly require raising a dragon lovingly, and I am 100% fine with that (I own both). But this EQ situation was not a one-time thing after all, and I can see why that might be upsetting because it means it could just keep happening for various breeds in the future. I don't think it's so much the one or two breeds that upset people, but that they set the game up for a different trajectory than before

Yeah, a large part of my concern is that this seems to be a trend we're seeing more of.  It was frustrating with the cantor variants, but that was a one-off thing.  When the pink saphs and these newest ones have come out now, we're seeing a second release of breeds that requires you to rely on other players or use a mechanic with a very high risk to reward ratio to have a chance to obtain them.  If this happens more and more, that notably changes the nature of the game into something it never used to be for many, many years.  It's understandable that would be an unpopular direction to go in, then.

 

Though even with ND and Zombies, they weren't the same.  ND you could still do on your own, and zombies (and vampires) have a very different risk/reward situation in that you're only risking a single dragon of your choosing rather than every egg on your scroll at the time.  (And vamps seem to have a decent success rate, and there are ways to increase your success rate for the zombies.  Neither is as punishing as the EQ risk-reward ratio is.)

 

That's largely where my issue with the EQ is--it's a very brutal risk/reward ratio, very high on the risk side compared to the reward side, and requires altering playstyles to limit eggs on the scroll if you want to minimize your risks.  Zombies and vamps are nowhere near that punishing if you fail.

Edited August 24, 2021 by KageSora

[MissK.]

Right yeah, completely forgot about Vampires...funny since I have almost 40 of them. 

 

I just miss the more regular, chill releases, something like incubate variants is quite stress-free but still offers a bit of complexity. Oh well, fingers crossed for the pyro babies.

[NEXROSSMA]

44 minutes ago, ShorahNagi said:

While I'm not happy that we have another breed that requires Earthquake to get - I am appreciative that spriters are coming up with "new" ways to make certain BSA's and the game as a whole more interactive/challenging.

 

Sure not every new addition caters to everyone's style, but the same can be said for any game/similar website [especially those with "premium" elements and people willing to pay vs. Free playing casuals].

 

That aside, has ANYTHING been said on Discord or discovered here about the Pyro babies?

 

Wanting to try my hand at getting some of the EQ babies, I opted to incubate all my Pyro eggs so they'll hatch sooner and am kind of hoping I didn't shoot myself in the foot like some did with the Cantormaris.

I think we can get more "new" way by learning from Pokemon's special evolutions.(Or maybe Digimon?Or others?Time,related ways are not "new" enough,so I'll skip it.May the magikarp be with us!LOL)

For example,Link Trade(teleport) to evolve(change to alt sprite before hatch/mature),just like Machamp,Alakazam,Golem,Gengar,etc(Itus Cantormaris)(No Held item,we don't have anything like that,but maybe trade with special breed(s) to change is avalible,just like Escavalier and Accelgor)

Leafeon-like:

Eevee use to evolve to Leafeon when level up nearby Moss Rock.I mean,maybe we can make use of our leete tree on our scrolls,some dragons may get alt sprites by growing nearby it,or other special dragons,instead of using BSAs.

Nincada-like:

Nincada evolves to Ninjask(and Shedinja,when you have spare slot and a spare Poké Ball.).I mean,when a egg hatched, the egg shell may become a special (non-?)dragon breed as well, when you have spare hatchl slot.

Inkay-like:

Inkay evolve to Malamar by upside down the device when level up.Maybe we don't have to upside down our devices but reverse sort dragons on scrolls,to get an alt sprite.

 

Many other ways but little time,I paused.

[FortyTwo]

2 hours ago, Falorni said:

I would unironically be all over Mint style Easterns oh my gosh

Wow. I had never even thought of this. I'd actually really love it if Mints had some gimmicky feature you could only use on Mint eggs, and then it would hatch as an eastern Mint.

 

... Maybe we could even have something like Legendary Mints, mechanic similar to the Zyus but you need something like 5 mints to summon a single Legendary Mint? 😁

[brevi]

Maybe I'm in the minority,  but I don't really mind the use of BSA actions to acquire certain sprites.

 

32 minutes ago, MissK. said:

I would rather not have this be a trend for regular dragon breeds.

I agree. I would rather not have this be a trend for all future releases, but I'm also not entirely opposed if this is the direction they want the game to evolve (where it requires the user to be more involved/active).  I've been around since 2009 and personally I've seen my play-style change drastically over the years. I feel like it's fair to have some breeds that are a bit harder to collect since it would make it more engaging for those who want to be more active online (ie. trading, BSA actions, lineage planning). But also not a deal-breaker for those who play less frequently to catch up (especially once the 'new' aren't as hyped up).

 

Although recent big releases have felt a bit overwhelming, personally, I'm not in a big rush to collect every new release immediately so I feel okay about it. But I do feel like these release threads always end up devolving to be rather negative/toxic.

  

1 minute ago, NEX-Trishula said:

While I'm not happy that we have another breed that requires Earthquake to get - I am appreciative that spriters are coming up with "new" ways to make certain BSA's and the game as a whole more interactive/challenging.

^This!! I feel like there could always be more hidden badges (like magikarp) or summoning. Doesn't necessarily have to have a function, just for fun! Thank you to the artists and the whole team for making this all happen!!

[Guillotine]

27 minutes ago, KageSora said:

I suspect this is going to come down to a clash in views.

 

Some would agree that since no money is being paid, we aren't the clients.

 

Others, however, consider the playerbase to be the clientele for a game.

 

We're not clients in the strict sense that we aren't paying for tailor-made art, but in general players are the intended end-users of game assets so it's not unreasonable for the intended end-users to be distressed when it requires they use a largely unpopular mechanic to obtain.

Yeah, a large part of my concern is that this seems to be a trend we're seeing more of.  It was frustrating with the cantor variants, but that was a one-off thing.  When the pink saphs and these newest ones have come out now, we're seeing a second release of breeds that requires you to rely on other players or use a mechanic with a very high risk to reward ratio to have a chance to obtain them.  If this happens more and more, that notably changes the nature of the game into something it never used to be for many, many years.  It's understandable that would be an unpopular direction to go in, then.

 

Though even with ND and Zombies, they weren't the same.  ND you could still do on your own, and zombies (and vampires) have a very different risk/reward situation in that you're only risking a single dragon of your choosing rather than every egg on your scroll at the time.  (And vamps seem to have a decent success rate, and there are ways to increase your success rate for the zombies.  Neither is as punishing as the EQ risk-reward ratio is.)

 

That's largely where my issue with the EQ is--it's a very brutal risk/reward ratio, very high on the risk side compared to the reward side, and requires altering playstyles to limit eggs on the scroll if you want to minimize your risks.  Zombies and vamps are nowhere near that punishing if you fail.

Yeah, I would like to emphasize: this isn't mild irritation at a one-off like when the Cantos first got released (where required a completed teleport was something that was grumbled about!). This is a ongoing trend for a game where being able to get everything on your own used to be very difficult but possible and even expected. And it's not a change a lot of players like, because it entirely shifts the tone of the game and forces distinct playstyles on people who find those playstyles to be unfun.

 

I don't think it's unreasonable to express that those changes are making the game less fun for people!

[Murkydepths]

I like the eq mechanic for the lil shy guys. It makes sense, I like how it ties into their behaviour + lore. 

[KageSora]

1 minute ago, Guillotine said:

Yeah, I would like to emphasize: this isn't mild irritation at a one-off like when the Cantos first got released (where required a completed teleport was something that was grumbled about!). This is a ongoing trend for a game where being able to get everything on your own used to be very difficult but possible and even expected. And it's not a change a lot of players like, because it entirely shifts the tone of the game and forces distinct playstyles on people who find those playstyles to be unfun.

 

I don't think it's unreasonable to express that those changes are making the game less fun for people!

Especially because being upset about things you can't obtain yourself is not new.

 

I remember when the Snow Angles were released, there were absolutely users upset by the scroll-locked coding for wing colors.  Same with the alt Sweetlings, though that at least I vaguely recall that having a bit less grumbling since they were given as a compensation for a bug.

 

And now we're seeing not only forcing reliance on other players but forcing use of a widely unpopular mechanic, without doing anything to mitigate why that mechanic is unpopular, becoming a trend for a new direction the game might be going in.

 

Very understandable that would go over poorly with any usersbase, but especially this one.  I can't say I understand how anybody could have been around this site for a while and not have seen the backlash coming a few miles off.

[PrairieStead]

Before reading their backstories I really like both of th August hatchlings. The striped egg to hatchling reminds me of rhino on a mission and the other hatchling seems like it's a rocking 💺.  It's always fun to see what they appear to be versus what they are really are supposed to be. Just another thing to do inside DC.  LOL

[Falorni]

31 minutes ago, FortyTwo said:

Wow. I had never even thought of this. I'd actually really love it if Mints had some gimmicky feature you could only use on Mint eggs, and then it would hatch as an eastern Mint.

 

... Maybe we could even have something like Legendary Mints, mechanic similar to the Zyus but you need something like 5 mints to summon a single Legendary Mint? 😁

this is real sloppy but....

noodle.  minty freesh

[BringsTheSnow]

3 hours ago, Falorni said:

All I'mma say is if you don't like EQ requiring variants simply don't EQ and either trade or just don't worry about them.  I think  I've EQ'd maybe twice (with bad results lol) and don't personally like the mechanic, but I'm happy that those who DO enjoy a challenge get something that is more catered for them this time around.  It genuinely gets super frustrating reading these NR threads because it's always a selected handful of users being nothing but negative, no wonder many spriters don't bother interacting with the threads at this point.

I agree with these comments completely.

 

EQ is something I have yet to use and do not plan to star using it now either. That said, I am happy people who do use EQ and like the mechanic can now get additional reward for their risk taking.

 

 

Great egg and hatchie sprites and I am really excited to see the adults soon. So far, I like the cuddly hatchie best. My hope is I will also favor the cuddly adult sprite since I have 5 Alpine/Desert NR eggs to work with! Who knows though, I may fall in love with the Volcano Adult and then have to frantically hunt more since I only have 2 right now. 

[Jazeki]

Well, I EQ'd two eggs with last stage cracks and got one skittish breed. The other died.

[Long_Before_Sunrise]

58 minutes ago, Falorni said:

this is real sloppy but....

noodle.  minty freesh

Shouldn't there be a toothbrush under it?

[Moranna]

1 hour ago, Arkee said:

It's still just 9 breeds among 200+ and, aside from this one, pink sapphs and green cantos, they don't require endangering the eggs.

 

I have to disagree with you here.  It's not a matter of 9 dragons among 200+, but it's more like potentially 10 or 11 (plus a super rare bred alt) out of 33 released in 8 months.  We went from years of having a few (if any) dragons with special mechanics released over the entire year to about 1/3 of everything released this year.  That can be overwhelming for many people and I, for one, am one of the overwhelmed. 

 

Adding so many complex ways to obtain dragons at once is a lot, as I have less time to play DC now than even a few years ago.  I don't like the idea of variants that require the use of EQ.  Besides the risk to the entire scroll, the randomness of what I'd end up with afterwards means I can't easily plan my play time.  My scroll goal is 6 CB (or 2g hybrids) of each new breed.  I'm still working on some of the original Cantor variants from 8 months ago, as I've not been able to see any Cantors drop since May.  Because of this, it becomes even more of a cost in time and shards to get what I need from the Market.  That's not fun, it's actually frustrating and expensive for my limited resources (shards and time).  It's enough for me to contemplate dropping this game after over 13 years.  When a game that depends on ad views or subscriptions for its revenue starts pushing away a chunk of its player base, it's time to take a moment and consider the situation.

 

Please avoid characterizing people expressing their points of view as "unchecked salt" or "entitlement" - that's very disrespectful.  You can respectfully disagree with someone else without minimizing or insulting their position.

[Kaini]

Closing until I can weed through reports. Then the thread will re-open with a warning, never fear. 

 

I am disappointed this could not remain civil for eight hours while I slept. Remember the first rule of the forum is to respect others. 

 

7 hours ago, Fuzzbucket said:

Many of us hate discord; it would be nice if information were not posted there and not on forum.

 

A spriter is perfectly allowed to chat casually in a place they feel comfortable without being obligated to post an official word everywhere else. Especially with the way she's been treated.

 

Quote

I'm very glad Dalek DID post. I hate discord and won't go there, and it isn't pleasant when vital information is there and not on forum. The person I would criticise would be Infi - much as I love her - for not posting here as well.

 

Your hatred of discord is not her problem, but you are trying to make it that.

 

Quote

i don't like discord. i'm not going to go there for info when it should be in the main thread. this stuff needs to be said here instead of relying on other users to convey it to us. it's just weird to have someone else explain Infi's reasoning instead of herself. 

 

Above.

7 hours ago, Bambi said:

Can I just say, Infi hasn't asked for anyone to speak on her behalf on the Forums. Dalek has simply chosen to relay the message herself to others here so people who aren't on Discord can know what's going on, what works and what we've discovered so far. On Discord, we like to experiment with NR and figure out special mechanisms quite quickly so I think sharing our experiments and knowledge here should be no issue and people shouldn't always rely on the artist themselves to come forward with this knowledge, especially so early on in the release with users eggs only just being ready to hatch. Technically, Infi doesn't owe anyone anything. She doesn't need to come on here or on Discord and tell everyone right this instance how to get certain variants etc, if her main source of interaction is on Discord then it's on Discord. It's not like she wants the Forum based users to be disadvantaged in any shape or form. That's all I have to say in regards to this.

 

^

 

Edit: re-opening will have to wait until I get home from work. I apologize. But I will get through everything then.

Edited August 24, 2021 by Kaini

[Kaini]

READ BELOW ONCE THREAD IS RE-OPENED:

 

 

Alright ladies, gents and everything in between. Thank you for your patience as I dealt with this and life today.

 

Thread re-opening, with a few warnings and words.

Firstly, of course, the first rule of the forum is to respect others. This very much includes spriters, the site admin, and other users. Be kind, do not put down others or assume ill intent when it comes to decisions made.

Secondly, there is nothing 'unfair' about the game not catering to your specific playstyle. Some like the challenge, some don't. We all have the same access to it, and that is fair. You can choose to engage with the new mechanic or not.

If you aren't a fan of a mechanic, that's fine, and one can discuss that. Using harsh words against staff that implemented it is NOT fine, and one should consider how those words feel to a real person behind the screen who puts countless hours into developing a game for you to enjoy on a volunteer basis.

 

Putting down other users for having a differing opinion on the matter than you is also unacceptable.

 

This thread is re-opening with a warning. I will give one more before it is closed permanently. Discussion is fine. Harsh language, blame, and rudeness towards others is not.

Have a good night!

Edited August 25, 2021 by Kaini

[Tini]

HELLO EVERYONE now that this is unlocked, I bring news from afar fields! Rejoice and celebrate! You *can* smash the egg to get a skittish hatchie! I've seen the action log for both the one posted here before and a hatchie from 12 hours later, neither were earthquaked, both were killed, the more recent one is skittish. Weather its just a chance between skittish and snuggle, or a fixed bug, is unknown, if you feel like smashing eggs, please tell us if you get skittish or snuggles! 

 

Personally I lean to a fixed bug, cause skittish works with attempted murder. But its hard to know for sure with just two known hatches.

[Oddsoxdi]

So all I wound up with is a dead hatchie.

[Sketch]

1 minute ago, Oddsoxdi said:

So all I wound up with is a dead hatchie.

How did you get a dead hatchling? If anything dies, it should just be an eggshell.