Get Rid of Name Exclusivity

[milo]

I love both the mockup and the option to toggle “show codes” !!! both fantastic ideas that erase most if not all of the (objective) issues with this suggestion 

[Astreya]

The toggle option would be really cool, particularly if showing code was the secondary option (or if one could set preferences for the option).

[ShorahNagi]

8 minutes ago, Keileon said:

Weighing in on the Prize/SAlt issue: there is literally no reason to make their, and only their, names unique. You can't exactly make a fake SAlt or a fake CB prize. If I want to name some random Aria "Penk" then there shouldn't be an exception for that, full stop. Either make all names unique or none.

Agreed. I have two CB prizes (one original with custom code and the other from the monthly raffle) - and I'd have no issue with their names being used by other dragons [I'd be curious actually to see what dragons they get used on OR if someone does a copy cat dragon.

 

And I like the lineage mock-up, but I agree that that should be something toggle-able if it's not too difficult

[Pilauli]

1 hour ago, pinkgothic said:

My only real concern - and it's not a limiting factor in the end - is what happens to lineages. At the moment you can usually tell at a glance if something is inbred; in future people may be effectively "forced" to use tools to tell.

I just realized that I can't figure out how this objection works.

 

So the danger is that generally-undesirable dragons (inbred) might be mistaken for the small group of dragons which were deliberately made to look like the undesirable ones?

 

That looks a bit sarcastic, I guess.  But I suspect that inbreeding has enough stigma that there won't be many "non-inbred but ancestors have the same names" dragons (because if it's going to look inbred, why bother tracking down separate CBs to start from), so if people just avoid any with repeated names, they shouldn't miss out on too many lineages.  Right?  Or am I missing something?

 

[Odeen]

1 hour ago, Rekha said:

Why do you feel that is unfair? Those are special dragons and should live on forever. And I am talking original not their offspring.

 

@Infinis I mean that someone else can’t take a name that is in use of of prizes or spriters alt. If the owner decides to change names go for it.

 

If names are to be made no longer unique, no user - even an artist - should be exempt from that. My spriter alts are already identifiable next to normal dragons of their breed, so even if there were 10000 dragons with their names nobody would ever mistake them. I consider Midas Dorkface more worthy of protection.

[Syiren]

1 hour ago, Infinis said:

I use view/n/ all the time and I still want names to stop being exclusive. I even trade for names, and I still want exclusivity to be yeeted into the abyss. The person who traded me Pantera took it originally because they wanted it, and traded it to me for something they wanted a little more...but we should both be able to have the name. 🙂 

 

I suck at remembering codes. It's why I use view/n/. But I'm also adaptable and would rather search a list of all dragons with that name rather than be stuck with exclusivity, or even maintain offsite documentation like a spreadsheet or word doc than keep exclusivity. I don't want to have THE s e p h i r o t h, I want everyone to have a sephiroth name if they want. and I feel bad that @Syiren feels guilty about taking names they want when they are a fan too (pls don't feel guiltyyyy). 

 

The "victory" of claiming a name, or trading for it, wears off pretty quickly in my experience. It's just another name on a scroll with more than 11,000.

 

As for creativity, I don't want to be forced into creativity or uniqueness, and honestly I don't always want that for my dragons. Sometimes ya girl just wants to name a dragon Steve Irwin, but is stifled by exclusivity. 😞 

 

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "limited scale?" Also, prizes and SAs are player owned and we could change those names any time, even now, so I'm not...really sure what you meant by the specific inclusion of prizes and SAs. I don't want my SAlts or cb prize to be rendered un-rename-able... ;w;

I agree and relate to so much of this. And I try not to feel that way, but I also try to be considerate, knowing I'm not the only fan who owns a scroll. Heck, I'm giddy as a geek knowing there are such unique dragons who have fan names. And I'd never ever want someone to change their dragon's name just because I want the same name. I didn't even realize trading for names was a thing. I usually try putting in a dash somewhere or spacing it out, or putting a CB or II or adding a title or rank next to it just to help make it a bit different. 

 

The more dragons and players we get the harder it is to find open names we want on the first try. the only one's who don't are those who add in a unique last name or their own username.

 

Some of my breeds even have naming schemes to avoid the name issue. ex: My water dragons (though I've been slacking off lately) have the last name: Seascale. And while it does help, it doesn't sound right when wanting to name a dragon after a character I'm a fan of. If I named a water dragon after Inuyasha it'd look weird to call him Inuyasha Seascale.

 

*hugs* Hope you don't ever feel guilty either. 

Edited October 1, 2020 by Syiren
typos are evil. -_-;

[Estellux]

Personally, I'm in favor of the abolition of name exclusivity because of the benefit it could have for people who do lyrical lineages, use fandom names, or just want 'common' names. I could see it being detrimental to Dorkface lineages in particular, just because that is an individual and otherwise unmarked mating pair (as opposed to Thuweds which usually have the 'Verified Thuwed' tag on their pages or Spriter's Alts which are a different color altogether). As for linking issues, I can see how that would be an issue in the short term as it could wreck some links people have used (although with the /n/ replacement that Infinis suggested, I feel like all that work will not have been completely lost). However, I think the freedom removing name exclusivity would grant to the userbase as a whole would be most beneficial.

 

As for the creativity argument, I have a couple thoughts. What counts as creative really does depend on the person, and some people might be 'creative' in the same way (eg what if both me and whoever else both think to rename "Sky Crystal" to "Skye Chrystal" or "Sky Krystal" etc? Everyone in front of me with that name forces me to come up with a crazier alternate spelling, which might not be recognizable in the end). Also, while having limitations can be conductive to creativity (like with the 'Sky Crystal' example), it can also discourage creativity, especially in the case of lyrical lineages. On a personal note, I've been discouraged from trying lyrical lines because I don't want to have to fight to make the names look nice. Ultimately, I think the freedom to go in whatever direction takes your fancy is just as good for creative ventures as having limitations, depending on the individual. However, I would argue that an individual can put a limitation on themselves easily enough that the majority of the playerbase should not have to worry about an individual's limitations (especially when other players might not be or want to be creative).

 

The solution I would most like to see implemented is the abolition of exclusive names altogether. I've been on the receiving end of a name wipe before, and it was rather disheartening as I'd put a lot of effort into those names, so the reimplementation of the old system is something I'm entirely against. I'm also resistant to the suggestion of scroll-specific name exclusivity because of lyrical lineages, although I find it a better alternative than the current system because it means my game play is not affected by other players. As for name sniping, I think that is most 'fair' if name exclusivity is kept, as it doesn't punish players as severely for taking long hiatuses. I would definitely agree that if any sort of name wipe were implemented, the time limit on it should be in years, as there are folks that only come around during the holidays.

 

Along with that main argument, here's a few other thoughts I have on the topic:

• I think some exclusivity is still alright when it comes to the Thuweds. However, I will also grant that they have the benefit of being undeniably marked in a unique way, so it is not as important.
• If this game can theoretically be played with almost no input from other players, why should I be limited in naming my dragons because someone else (who I may never interact with because they've stopped playing or they just aren't available) have the power to stop me from naming my dragon something simple?
• I have seen other games that don't bother with any kind of naming exclusivity, and I personally have seen no major issue in it. Now, those games obviously aren't DC and what works for them might not necessarily work for DC, but I do believe it is worth pointing out that I haven't seen it become an issue elsewhere.
• On a personal note, I also think it would be cool to have dragons that share names with other individuals' dragons as a sign of friendship.

 

Apologies for that absolute novel, but this is a rather complex, divisive topic and I wanted to get the bulk off my thoughts out there in one go.

[pinkgothic]

34 minutes ago, Pilauli said:

I just realized that I can't figure out how this objection works.

 

So the danger is that generally-undesirable dragons (inbred) might be mistaken for the small group of dragons which were deliberately made to look like the undesirable ones?

 

That looks a bit sarcastic, I guess.  But I suspect that inbreeding has enough stigma that there won't be many "non-inbred but ancestors have the same names" dragons (because if it's going to look inbred, why bother tracking down separate CBs to start from), so if people just avoid any with repeated names, they shouldn't miss out on too many lineages.  Right?  Or am I missing something?

Yes, I do think you are basically missing two things, but they're easy to miss, so don't sweat it. ❤️

 

One, lyrical lineages would rather deliberately have repeated names, where "avoiding repeat names" is just not the goal. (Usually this is just one person who owns all the dragons, which should hopefully take care of the problem altogether, but they might just as well be part of a concerted breeding project.)

 

Two, once the name restriction drops, the site will begin to have a lot of dragons named after popular words and that will only get "worse" over time. If you have some popular words in your lineage and you ask for a bloodswap in a trade, you can of course deny all offers that come in with similar names, but depending on what generation you're at and what dragon breeds are in the lineage, you might be cutting out a lot of potential mates.

 

That said, I don't think either of these things are insurmountable - you'll notice I'm very much favour of the change. And Commander Wymsy's mock-up would completely and easily take care even of the vague "this might get unpleasant" undercurrent that made me mention it at all.

[purplehaze]

I used to think exclusivity was a good feature. It isn't a problem usually for me because I tend to either name my dragons according to their codes or a mashup of their parents' names.

I am still pretty neutral about it, but I can see the point of those who are frustrated by it.

I do think @Commander Wymsy's idea would alleviate a lot of the problems that it could cause.

It might still make the /n/ link less useful, but I have never used that very much anyway. I know many do, though, so that would stand as at least one objection left.

[Rekha]

Well with so much anti my words earlier then I for one do not support this. I have a very special dragon named after my mom that I got shortly after she passed it would make me sad to see others with that name

[Pilauli]

 

6 hours ago, pinkgothic said:

 Yes, I do think you are basically missing two things, but they're easy to miss, so don't sweat it. ❤️

 

One, lyrical lineages would rather deliberately have repeated names, where "avoiding repeat names" is just not the goal. (Usually this is just one person who owns all the dragons, which should hopefully take care of the problem altogether, but they might just as well be part of a concerted breeding project.)

 

Two, once the name restriction drops, the site will begin to have a lot of dragons named after popular words and that will only get "worse" over time. If you have some popular words in your lineage and you ask for a bloodswap in a trade, you can of course deny all offers that come in with similar names, but depending on what generation you're at and what dragon breeds are in the lineage, you might be cutting out a lot of potential mates.

 

That said, I don't think either of these things are insurmountable - you'll notice I'm very much favour of the change. And Commander Wymsy's mock-up would completely and easily take care even of the vague "this might get unpleasant" undercurrent that made me mention it at all.

For lyrical lineages, it might be hard to tell whether the repeat-line dragons are the same dragon without looking carefully anyway.  Right?  So giving them the exact same name would just require you to mouse over them to check the codes, instead of squinting at the names to detect minor differences.

 

You have a good point about the common names.  For example (hypothetically), multiple Ice dragons named Snowstorm.  I hadn't considered that one.  (Scroll-specific exclusivity wouldn't do anything about this suggestion...)  I don't have a good suggestion for that.

 

I personally think the name-and-code display is a bit ugly (even though it's effective), so I was hoping that it wouldn't be necessary.  It might be the best option, though.

 

6 hours ago, Rosastrasza said:

I could see it being detrimental to Dorkface lineages in particular, just because that is an individual and otherwise unmarked mating pair

Is there any reason someone couldn't name a dragon something like "The Original  Midas Dorkface" (with two spaces in the middle) right now?  I went looking but couldn't find one, which I'm going to take as a medium-strong indication that there's not that much motivation to counterfeit Dorkfaces.

 

That aside, I think it would make sense to sort the view/n/ page by who has had the name longest.  That would mean that if you weren't sure if you were looking at the real "The Original Midas Dorkface", then you could type "...view/n/The Original Midas Dorkface", look at the appropriate end of the list (don't care if it's sorted oldest first or youngest first, so long as it's sorted), and see what code that dragon has, then compare it to the code in the lineage.

 

It would be a little bit fiddly to do that (not good for a zillion eggs, but my impression is that most people don't collect Dorkfaces very fast), and of course you couldn't make sure everyone else was doing it properly, but if you cared, you could check your own dragons like that.

 

As far as how changing names affects the ordering, I think it would make the most sense if your dragon loses "name seniority" if/when they lose their name.  So, the current "Midas Dorkface" (an imposter) would be the most senior "Midas Dorkface", even if "The Original Midas Dorkface" (who used to be plain "Midas Dorkface") went back to being plain "Midas Dorkface".  This would also have the advantage of not needing to store all of a dragon's past names all the time in case the dragon re-uses one of its old names.  (Although this would need the system to store when each dragon was last renamed; I doubt it currently stores that, because it seems like that piece of data isn't used anywhere on the site.  So that would be something TJ would probably need to add to implement this.)

 

And this would probably not be compatible with the "put your own dragons on the top of the view/n/ list" suggestion, but one's own dragons could have their codes displayed in bold font or something to make them stand out.

 

Edited October 2, 2020 by Pilauli
Added quote from pinkgothic for reference because a couple of people posted while I was writing this monster of a post.

[Keileon]

I think people are too attached to the view/n page.

 

If we get rid of name exclusivity then there's no need to have view/n in the first place. Embedded dragons that use that link will break; big deal, it's just the link that breaks, not the image, and it's easy to fix. If you need to find a specific dragon then you're likely to know its code, owner, or be able to access it through progeny or lineage. If you want to confirm that a dragon with a specific name is the one you're looking for... again, just look at code/progeny/lineage. You can mimic Midas Dorkface all you want but only one has the code qESx, is mated with 1JLm, and has his exact arrangement of children, grandchildren, etc. He even has his owner visible on his page.

 

I don't think there's any real need to differentiate one dragon from another beyond already-existing mechanics such as codes and progeny pages.

[DragonLady86]

Support. I quit naming years ago because I got tired of the hassle 

 

It also really makes want to put together lineages with dragons all named the same because reasons. "The lineage of Bob! If you have a dragon with this name please message me!" Lol

[Fuzzbucket]

3 hours ago, Keileon said:

I think people are too attached to the view/n page.

 

If we get rid of name exclusivity then there's no need to have view/n in the first place. Embedded dragons that use that link will break; big deal, it's just the link that breaks, not the image, and it's easy to fix. If you need to find a specific dragon then you're likely to know its code, owner, or be able to access it through progeny or lineage. If you want to confirm that a dragon with a specific name is the one you're looking for... again, just look at code/progeny/lineage. You can mimic Midas Dorkface all you want but only one has the code qESx, is mated with 1JLm, and has his exact arrangement of children, grandchildren, etc. He even has his owner visible on his page.

 

I don't think there's any real need to differentiate one dragon from another beyond already-existing mechanics such as codes and progeny pages.

 

Thanks but the /n/ page is VERY useful to me (and many others) even for finding my OWN dragons, and I absolutely want it to stay. It will not make me happy if i have to see loads of others by the same name, but it's way better than not being able to use it at all. I do not want to have to remember codes - I have over 9k on my scroll and it is often the fastest way to find one in particular. In other areas, I do not want to be denied the chance to look for - say - a dragon called Gilded Butternut, which I might want to get an egg from even though I don't have one in any line at the moment (I made that name up; apologies to anyone who might own such a dragon.)  Just because you aren't attached to it doesn't mean anyone else is "too" attached. PLease let us keep the /n/.

 

11 hours ago, Odeen said:

 

If names are to be made no longer unique, no user - even an artist - should be exempt from that. My spriter alts are already identifiable next to normal dragons of their breed, so even if there were 10000 dragons with their names nobody would ever mistake them. I consider Midas Dorkface more worthy of protection.

 

This I absolutely agree with. If names are to be non-exclusive, it has to apply to ALL names.

[Ruby Eyes]

23 hours ago, KrazyKarp said:

“Creativity” isn’t that strong of an argument.

Neither is "but site X and site Y have this, why not DC?" as it came up on page 1.

Because really, DC is DC and NOT that other site.

 

Just wanted to drop this here. My stance is still: do NOT want this.

 

Carry on ...

[Sextonator]

I don’t think it’s fair that how people name things is basically dictated by other people. If I wanted to name/rename all my dragons, I’d want to be able to name them after my own characters, or my pets, without having to try and come up with a last name or over arching theme. They are my dragons, I should be allowed to name them what I want.

 

I’m still very much for this, since naming can be such an important part of the game, and how I handle that part of the game is my decision, and mine alone, not dictated by the fact that someone else beat me to a name, or a last name, or a theme/scheme.

[olympe]

2 hours ago, Sextonator said:

I don’t think it’s fair that how people name things is basically dictated by other people. If I wanted to name/rename all my dragons, I’d want to be able to name them after my own characters, or my pets, without having to try and come up with a last name or over arching theme. They are my dragons, I should be allowed to name them what I want.

 

I’m still very much for this, since naming can be such an important part of the game, and how I handle that part of the game is my decision, and mine alone, not dictated by the fact that someone else beat me to a name, or a last name, or a theme/scheme.

Well, how you hunt is also dictated by others - at least when it comes to success.  What you can or cannot find in the AP is dictated by other players. (Ever seen a wall in there? Player dictatorship right there.) What you can trade for is pretty much also not an independent thing. The other party has to offer something, after all.

[Mewtie]

16 hours ago, Rekha said:

Well with so much anti my words earlier then I for one do not support this. I have a very special dragon named after my mom that I got shortly after she passed it would make me sad to see others with that name

While understandable, I think this seems very conditional. In this case you did get the name, but I believe it should be considered that this would not necessarily have happened. Because just as well, someone else's dragon could already have had that name, which would perhaps have shed a different light on the subject. Just to be clear, this is not an argument for this suggestion, I only wanted to bring up another side of the aspect you're addressing.

[Rekha]

16 minutes ago, Mewtie said:

While understandable, I think this seems very conditional. In this case you did get the name, but I believe it should be considered that this would not necessarily have happened. Because just as well, someone else's dragon could already have had that name, which would perhaps have shed a different light on the subject. Just to be clear, this is not an argument for this suggestion, I only wanted to bring up another side of the aspect you're addressing.

Oh I totally understand where people are coming from but I mean the way I look at it is this. What will stop people from naming their dragons famous names just to be able to get say a 2nd gen of that dragon. It is not just my dragon I am worried about but others as well. There are many who work hard just to collect certain offspring. 

 

I am however all for having dragon names removed when someone has been inactive for an extended period of time. I do feel it should be a good period of time like a year or more without any activity of course. 

[Infinis]

11 minutes ago, Rekha said:

Oh I totally understand where people are coming from but I mean the way I look at it is this. What will stop people from naming their dragons famous names just to be able to get say a 2nd gen of that dragon. It is not just my dragon I am worried about but others as well. There are many who work hard just to collect certain offspring. 

 

I am however all for having dragon names removed when someone has been inactive for an extended period of time. I do feel it should be a good period of time like a year or more without any activity of course. 

 

I think I understand what you mean, and the thing is that people already do that. Fakes of thuweds already exist, and dragons named after famous RL people exist too. Dorkfaces themselves were victims of name wiping; unless their owner comes back regularly, they will become victims again if name wiping/stealing is present. It's not exclusivity, or lack thereof, causing fakes, but the exclusivity is not stopping it, either.

 

[DragonLady86]

6 minutes ago, Rekha said:

Oh I totally understand where people are coming from but I mean the way I look at it is this. What will stop people from naming their dragons famous names just to be able to get say a 2nd gen of that dragon. It is not just my dragon I am worried about but others as well. There are many who work hard just to collect certain offspring. 

 

I am however all for having dragon names removed when someone has been inactive for an extended period of time. I do feel it should be a good period of time like a year or more without any activity of course. 

People already do this. There are plenty of thuweds, and the dorkface owner took a hiatus and lost her names and someone took them, that's why they now have "the original" in front of their names. As for creating false 2gs, that's why you should always check the lineage first. You cant truly fake a thuwed or spriter alt or cb prize. And Midas Dorkface and Shallenar have such high views (and progeny list) they'd be difficult as well. 

[Keileon]

Even in the case of Thuweds that aren't on the Verified Thuwed list yet because they only just got paired, you can just look at their view count. Only the real Thuweds have absolutely insane stats because they can't die of sickness.

[Sextonator]

2 hours ago, olympe said:

Well, how you hunt is also dictated by others - at least when it comes to success.  What you can or cannot find in the AP is dictated by other players. (Ever seen a wall in there? Player dictatorship right there.) What you can trade for is pretty much also not an independent thing. The other party has to offer something, after all.

Those things aren’t on my scroll, though. Those are givens, too. But when it comes to creating a lineage with specific names, or with a specific theme, if someone had used the names I wanted/needed to use, then I can’t create what I wanted. I’m stuck using an additional naming convention that I don’t necessarily want to complete my project, and it might end up not being how I envisioned, because other people took the names that I needed. That’s not fair. It’s something that I don’t think should be happening.

[Sundew]

People have commented a bit on the /view/n/ page, and I think one of the suggestions was proposing a list sorted by who's had the name the longest, with bolded names for dragons you own? I like this, but rather than bolded names, I'd prefer to see a separate list of dragons you own, above a list of all dragons with the name. Like:

 

Your dragons named John Doe:

John Doe (code)

John Doe (code)

John Doe (code)

 

All dragons named John Doe:

John Doe (code)

...

 

This should solve the problem of quickly identifying your own dragons using the /view/n/ page. You'd still have to click on your dragon from the page, instead of being directed to it immediately, but I think it's an improved solution from having them all listed together, with your dragons' names just bolded.

[Infinis]

4 minutes ago, Sundew said:

People have commented a bit on the /view/n/ page, and I think one of the suggestions was proposing a list sorted by who's had the name the longest, with bolded names for dragons you own? I like this, but rather than bolded names, I'd prefer to see a separate list of dragons you own, above a list of all dragons with the name. Like:

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Your dragons named John Doe:

John Doe (code)

John Doe (code)

John Doe (code)

 

All dragons named John Doe:

John Doe (code)

...

 

 

This should solve the problem of quickly identifying your own dragons using the /view/n/ page. You'd still have to click on your dragon from the page, instead of being directed to it immediately, but I think it's an improved solution from having them all listed together, with your dragons' names just bolded.

I've added this to the first post. 🙂