2015-10-07 - Sprite Update (round one)

[Obscure_Trash]

*But seriously ~ why not keep the old Nilia adult sprite for one gender like we did with horse?

RE: Nilia's.

 

First of all, thank you for all of the crit!  I say that seriously and without sarcasm.  I'm glad to see that people care enough that they see things that still need fixed.  I know that as an artist I still have room to grow. 

 

There are two things I'd like to address -

 

-

1) The sprite went through weight loss

 

Yes it's true!  And this is due to my original intentions of the breed.  The original sprite was done when my spriting skills were much more primitive and I was unable to get the look I wanted.  I like to thing of them like kittens - lanky, fast, a bit awkward, thin, kittens.

 

2) The female is bigger/longer

 

Once again true! This is also intentional.  In Nilia's their dimorphism is a bit more extreme than other breeds.  The females are always bigger and longer (which you can see in my thread about them and probably on the wiki).  It's been that way since the beginning and I wanted the sprites to show that.

 

This isn't me being RAWRspriter® but just me trying to explain some of the changes.

 

The old one was kept because it wasn't the image that the nilia's truly had in Cort's vision.

 

I understand wanting the old one (I prefer it, at least until I stare at these new ones for a while), but keeping the old one with no updates would have been even weird, IMO. Then the sprites wouldn't have matched at all and the dimorphic differences would have been a tad awkward. And, as has been pointed out, the male is pretty much an updated version of the old sprite. It's just been updated to match with the original vision of the dragon now that Cort has had more practice and honed his skills. =)

 

~

 

I agree with Thu. I don't see the brokeness in the female neck. You see that bend in birds all the time. I realize dragons are more reptilian, but I still think this would be possible.

 

Ex 1, 2, 3, and 4.

[Verridith]

Am I fussed about this and other changes? No, I'm not. I build tons of lineages, but I never, EVER assume that a sprite will stay the same, because I've been around the game too long for that sort of assumption. I've become jaded: whatever I, personally, might want or like, the artists reserve the right to destroy my work at any time they choose, in a variety of different ways. They are not my "enemy", and I like many of those artists. But I'm not blind to the differences in the way we look at sprites.

I do have to poke at this again though-

 

Are you comparing the work we do as artists to the "work" you do with lineages as players? I hadn't actually noticed that until I went back and re-read your post. I do know playing a game takes a lot of time and energy out of the day, if you plan to do it with any sort of dedication (trust me, I know this as I run a site that I've run for almost 13 years, and the amount of time my members spend on it always continues to astound me <3).

 

However, we spent hours, days, weeks and months working pixel by pixel to make beautiful art for no pay and no real compensation other than to either have their work praised or insulted, depending on what the userbase feels like at any given moment. I cannot see how, in any way, shape, or form, your work playing at making virtual dragon lineages at all compares to the work our talented artists toil at for days on end.

 

I apologize for being frank, but there's a canyon between you and the point you're trying to make, and you're attempting to fly over it without wings.

Edited October 8, 2015 by Verridith

[stagazer_7]

I think a shift in the lineage rectangle will ease most of the small problems that are cropping up.

Seconding this, a carefully placed lineage view would make any sprite look better when building lineages (I feel that in cases where dragons have a pose that keeps half of the lineage view blank, the view should focus on the body of the dragon in order to show as much of the creature as possible) - but that's really not up to the artists as far as I understand. I'm not sure who creates lineage view pics, TJ maybe?

 

Also I think Corteo's really awesome to take our cricicizm so positively. I will miss the old sprite, but I respect his artistic vision of the breed and even though I still believe the female sprite could use a bit of tweaking, I'm sure the I'll learn to love her too.

[tjekan]

I should add that my issues have never been opposing change because I think change is inherently bad. My issues have been opposing changing things on which I based other things. Objectively speaking, I like the new golds MUCH better than the old golds. They are just better art on almost every level I can think of, and that's even coming from somebody who still appreciates the heraldic style of the old ones. Yes, I love the new golds, but the drastic change in their appearance still screwed up dozens of lineages that I had spent years building which relied upon the old sprite that was no longer available. And I didn't love that.

 

It's as if I had spent a long time building a Millennium Falcon out of Legos, and one day Lego decided that it was going to replace all its grey blocks with shiny silver ones, and somehow Lego had the power to retroactively change every little block in my sculpture to shiny silver. There's nothing wrong with those shiny silver blocks and I could build some other great things with them, but now the sculpture I spent all that time on doesn't look like the Millennium Falcon anymore.

 

I get that artists feel an ownership over the sprites they have drawn that we ordinary players do not. Sure. But nobody likes to feel the rug pulled out from under them. If there were two dimorphic horse poses in the first place, then I would have made lineage decisions based on that. There was only one, and I don't understand why effort was placed into replacing half the existing lineages with a second pose instead of making a whole new dragon that I could have enjoyed without the complication of throwing out stuff I'd already started.

 

It's just a game. It's no big deal in the scheme of things. But if a game becomes no fun to play anymore, I have other things to do. If the silver update is as disruptive as the gold update was, I'm not going to want to put in the time it would take to get back to where I started. If it's more like the holly update, which is not disruptive at all, then I won't mind. That's all there is to that.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

I should add that my issues have never been opposing change because I think change is inherently bad. My issues have been opposing changing things on which I based other things. Objectively speaking, I like the new golds MUCH better than the old golds. They are just better art on almost every level I can think of, and that's even coming from somebody who still appreciates the heraldic style of the old ones. Yes, I love the new golds, but the drastic change in their appearance still screwed up dozens of lineages that I had spent years building which relied upon the old sprite that was no longer available. And I didn't love that.

 

It's as if I had spent a long time building a Millennium Falcon out of Legos, and one day Lego decided that it was going to replace all its grey blocks with shiny silver ones, and somehow Lego had the power to retroactively change every little block in my sculpture to shiny silver. There's nothing wrong with those shiny silver blocks and I could build some other great things with them, but now the sculpture I spent all that time on doesn't look like the Millennium Falcon anymore.

 

I get that artists feel an ownership over the sprites they have drawn that we ordinary players do not. Sure. But nobody likes to feel the rug pulled out from under them. If there were two dimorphic horse poses in the first place, then I would have made lineage decisions based on that. There was only one, and I don't understand why effort was placed into replacing half the existing lineages with a second pose instead of making a whole new dragon that I could have enjoyed without the complication of throwing out stuff I'd already started.

 

It's just a game. It's no big deal in the scheme of things. But if a game becomes no fun to play anymore, I have other things to do. If the silver update is as disruptive as the gold update was, I'm not going to want to put in the time it would take to get back to where I started. If it's more like the holly update, which is not disruptive at all, then I won't mind. That's all there is to that.

Well said on all points.

[purplehaze]

I was one who was not too fond of the new Nilias when I first saw them, but I have to admit that the more dynamic poses have grown on me. A careful look at the old sprite showed me that they are not all that different at the core.

 

I didn't have any lineages built around them, though, having only used them in stairs and one small Lovely Commons lineage. I can sympathize with those that have lineages that were changed by the new sprites. The new sprite looks very different in lineages.

[tjekan]

I do have to poke at this again though-

 

Are you comparing the work we do as artists to the "work" you do with lineages as players? I hadn't actually noticed that until I went back and re-read your post. I do know playing a game takes a lot of time and energy out of the day, if you plan to do it with any sort of dedication (trust me, I know this as I run a site that I've run for almost 13 years, and the amount of time my members spend on it always continues to astound me <3).

 

However, we spent hours, days, weeks and months working pixel by pixel to make beautiful art for no pay and no real compensation other than to either have their work praised or insulted, depending on what the userbase feels like at any given moment. I cannot see how, in any way, shape, or form, your work playing at making virtual dragon lineages at all compares to the work our talented artists toil at for days on end.

 

I apologize for being frank, but there's a canyon between you and the point you're trying to make, and you're attempting to fly over it without wings.

You're beating up a straw man there. Neither C4 nor anyone else said building lineages was AS hard work as spriting a dragon, or a comparable task in any way for that matter. We just said it IS hard work, and that it's disappointing to have our hard work ruined. Big difference.

 

[Verridith]

I should add that my issues have never been opposing change because I think change is inherently bad. My issues have been opposing changing things on which I based other things. Objectively speaking, I like the new golds MUCH better than the old golds. They are just better art on almost every level I can think of, and that's even coming from somebody who still appreciates the heraldic style of the old ones. Yes, I love the new golds, but the drastic change in their appearance still screwed up dozens of lineages that I had spent years building which relied upon the old sprite that was no longer available. And I didn't love that.

 

It's as if I had spent a long time building a Millennium Falcon out of Legos, and one day Lego decided that it was going to replace all its grey blocks with shiny silver ones, and somehow Lego had the power to retroactively change every little block in my sculpture to shiny silver. There's nothing wrong with those shiny silver blocks and I could build some other great things with them, but now the sculpture I spent all that time on doesn't look like the Millennium Falcon anymore.

 

I get that artists feel an ownership over the sprites they have drawn that we ordinary players do not. Sure. But nobody likes to feel the rug pulled out from under them. If there were two dimorphic horse poses in the first place, then I would have made lineage decisions based on that. There was only one, and I don't understand why effort was placed into replacing half the existing lineages with a second pose instead of making a whole new dragon that I could have enjoyed without the complication of throwing out stuff I'd already started.

 

It's just a game. It's no big deal in the scheme of things. But if a game becomes no fun to play anymore, I have other things to do. If the silver update is as disruptive as the gold update was, I'm not going to want to put in the time it would take to get back to where I started. If it's more like the holly update, which is not disruptive at all, then I won't mind. That's all there is to that.

As I said before, playing a game does not equal the amount of work the artists put into their artwork. At all. Ever. Playing a game is playing a game - it's fun and is filled with enjoyment and it's a game, as well it should remain.

 

Art takes real effort, not only in the one project or sets of projects, but also all of the practice, patience, and energy put into getting to the skill level you rise up to to make such projects possible. Spent ten+ years drawing and honing your skills and have your concept get released for the enjoyment of others, and then you may speak to me of work.

[tjekan]

As I said before, playing a game does not equal the amount of work the artists put into their artwork. At all. Ever. Playing a game is playing a game - it's fun and is filled with enjoyment and it's a game, as well it should remain.

 

Art takes real effort, not only in the one project or sets of projects, but also all of the practice, patience, and energy put into getting to the skill level you rise up to to make such projects possible. Spent ten+ years drawing and honing your skills and have your concept get released for the enjoyment of others, and then you may speak to me of work.

I may speak to you of work any time I please, actually. You're very off-base to assume that just because I choose to spend some of my time playing an online game, that I have not held a rigorous real-world job for far longer than "10+ years" and know the meaning of work every bit as well as you do.

 

And I'll repeat, no one here is comparing the work of building dragon lineages with the work of creating sprites in the first place, any more than anyone here is comparing the work of doing either of those things with the work of coding the game. Apples, oranges, and grapes. All I said was that time and effort was put in and nobody likes to have that wasted.

 

 

[Daydreamer09]

However, we spent hours, days, weeks and months working pixel by pixel to make beautiful art for no pay and no real compensation other than to either have their work praised or insulted, depending on what the userbase feels like at any given moment. I cannot see how, in any way, shape, or form, your work playing at making virtual dragon lineages at all compares to the work our talented artists toil at for days on end.

I realize I'm jumping into someone else's argument here and because of that, may be interpreting this wrong.

 

However, this assumption for lineage builders you've made is incredibly erroneous. People who build lineages are in many ways similar to on site spriters. Where pixels are the tools of the artist, lineage builders instead rely on lineage images to create something just as visually appealing. As well, there's no pay or any physical compensation for it. I can testify that for the time and years I've spent on making lineages, usually they get ignored and forgotten by other players, even though I contributed so much time and meticulous planning to it. And yes, I said years. Because of many factors, making a simple 5 generation lineage starting with your own caveborns can take a long time.

 

It's a different craft admittedly, but I think belittling it and scoffing at it and saying its on a lower level than what spriters do is very egotistical.

[Ribombee]

There are many I would gladly see an update on, even if it is a complete rehaul which ruins some of my lineages, simply because they are clearly old art done before the spriters got really good. Some have severe anatomical issues (broken necks seem to be a really common theme...), others just lack the lustre that some of the newer sprites with better shading have, and still others just have a very boring pose.

 

Honestly, as long as the sprite is GOOD (anatomically, looks natural, etc.) and retains the colour scheme (no drastic shade or colour changes), I can adjust to most any pose change. Even if it ruins some lineages, it might give me great ideas for new ones. It's when a sprite goes from being anatomically correct to something anatomically wrong that I really cringe. I guess I'm just really nit-picky about that. I see it as, if we are updating to make the sprites better, why accept something that maybe improves shading but gets worse in another area?

 

I REALLY like how much user base input goes into a lot of the sprites before they go into the completed list. There are so many people who can find the imperfections and give constructive critiques BEFORE they go live. I understand that doing so risks people just going, "NOOOO, NO CHANGES, WAAAAH!" However, if that was banned from the threads, I really think sprite changes could benefit from a user base review. If comments had to be kept to technical issues (like the odd angle/width of the nilia female neck) as opposed to complaints about pose change, etc., I think it would really, really help. It is not a cut against any of the spriters. We have some very talented spriters. It's just an outside perspective. I know that it can be easy to miss a flaw in my own works, simply because I have watched it progress from each word, line, or pixel (depending on what I am working on, of course). It's all too easy to not notice the flaws, especially when a person knows they are making an overall improvement so just sees that and not the new flaws that are being put into place.

 

I agree with Thu. I don't see the brokeness in the female neck. You see that bend in birds all the time. I realize dragons are more reptilian, but I still think this would be possible.

 

Ex 1, 2, 3, and 4.

 

The bend in the middle of the neck isn't really the problem, IMO. That bend, in and of itself, is perfectly natural for a long and slender neck. There is going to be a lot of articulation at that point in a long, flexible neck. That is less so at the attachment points. It's really more the two neck attachments that have an issue and contribute to making that bend look weird. I mentioned it in a previous post, but to clarify, I will mention it again here. The couple pixels right near where the neck joins the head are a pixel too thick on at the bottom and don't really fit either with the male or with what is generally found on slender-necked animals like that. It looks a bit as though there is a sudden jut of muscle right at the jaws, which is almost exclusively found in shorter-necked, stockier animals. Either that, or a slightly extended vocal pouch, like frogs have. Other than those attachment points, I actually love the new nilia sprites. They're quite elegant, and would look awesome with magelights!

 

I made an image pointing out the problem areas. A simple smoothing out of the bumps and angles, plus a very minor thinning of the neck where it attaches to the head would fix everything very nicely!

-removed, please don't make edits to other people's work without their permission-

Edited October 8, 2015 by rubyshoes

[Wahya]

I agree with that part of the neck - it looks pinched/off center to me.

[Hellen]

As I said before, playing a game does not equal the amount of work the artists put into their artwork. At all. Ever. Playing a game is playing a game - it's fun and is filled with enjoyment and it's a game, as well it should remain.

 

Art takes real effort, not only in the one project or sets of projects, but also all of the practice, patience, and energy put into getting to the skill level you rise up to to make such projects possible. Spent ten+ years drawing and honing your skills and have your concept get released for the enjoyment of others, and then you may speak to me of work.

I'm sorry if I have to say this, Verridith, but you come over as the kind of person that says in a fan-community, only artists that sprite do REAL work compared to those that RP who do nothing at all...

 

 

 

No one takes from you that you put your heart into the sprites, or that you took maybe years to get to the level of experience that you are now, but if you see spriting as such hard work, and not doing it for fun, you might want to overthink your view on spriting, and take a step back from it.

I say that as a person who feels that you take your 'Job' as a spriter too serious for your own good, if you see it as 'work' instead of fun.

 

That being said, I know several dozends lineage-builders who actually take hours of their time and even YEARS to work for a lineage.

Spreadsheets are being made, the perfect mate being bred, colors and bodyposes compared, and damn, if the breed is wrong, or if you had a refusal you need to start from anew.

It's a very ... upsetting assumption that we 'normal' players are not working just as hard as you spriters.

(And I really hate to point that out, but it really comes over as a spriters vs. 'normal' users right now.

Is that really the point were we have gotten? Spriters feeling they do all the work, and we normalos are just the ungrateful people never being happy?

Spriters feeling as they are the only ones doing work, and thus being better?

 

I honestly hope I am just having a bad feeling there that has nothing to do with the reality :c

And I hope most spriters don't want to have the same feeling)

[stagazer_7]

You're beating up a straw man there. Neither C4 nor anyone else said building lineages was AS hard work as spriting a dragon, or a comparable task in any way for that matter. We just said it IS hard work, and that it's disappointing to have our hard work ruined. Big difference.

I have to agree here, there was no comparing the work the spriters do and what lineage builders do... I draw digital art in and dabble in animation sometimes, so I understand that the creative process can be very demanding, but I'm an avid lineages builder too. Some of my lines are very high gen and I've been working on them for years (some are still ongoing) and building such lineages takes a lot of work too, there's a lot of coordinating to avoid inbreeding, dealing with refusals and non-intersts - the whole process takes up a lot of patience and care. And this shows a lot of love towards the sprites the artists create, that's why I find it sad to see all this devotion dismissed in this manner. I personally respect both sides.

 

I also have a real life job and let's be frank here, neither lineage building nor my art (all hobbies really) come near to the amount of work done there.

Edited October 8, 2015 by stagazer_7

[tjekan]

It's a very ... upsetting assumption that we 'normal' players are not working just as hard as you spriters.

(And I really hate to point that out, but it really comes over as a spriters vs. 'normal' users right now.

Is that really the point were we have gotten?

The frustrating thing for me is that this "us vs. them" thing seems to have been pulled entirely out of thin air. No one suggested that the players of the game work harder or put more time into the game than the artists. Until Verridith brought it up, no one had even suggested the players of the game put AS much time into the game as the artists. I know I most certainly did not (my personal opinion, which is solely my opinion, happens to be exactly the opposite. I find playing DragonCave much less time-consuming than doing pixel art. If I didn't I doubt I would play it. YMMV.)

 

I'm not sure how saying something like "I don't enjoy spending a lot of my time doing something that then gets ruined, and I hope that won't happen again" turns into "I work harder than you do and am therefore more important than you are" in anyone's mind, but I hope a quick look back at my (entirely unedited) posts will make it clear that was neither what was actually said by me nor what was meant by me.

[Hellen]

I really try to understand (as a person who doesn't really care for the changes, since none of the sprites discussed are even of interest to me) both sides.

 

YES I understand that you spriters do great work, and constant critism, non-constructive at that, can be annoying.

 

YES I understand that suddenly changed sprites can ruin lineages that specifically were designed for the former sprite.

 

But ... please don't let our opinions escalate?

 

 

 

(I really try to be excited for the silvers, but I don't think I'll stick around in the next forum post at all when that happens.)

[HeatherMarie]

I just had a horrible thought. "The next batch will include the changes to Silver Dragons, as well as a few surprise updates." Surprise updates? What if they mess with the Royal Blues?!!? OMG I would just die! I love my Blues soooooo much!

 

*is now more worried about the surprise updates then the Silver updates*

[Kozmotis]

Oh cool! I always thought the neck on the Holly dragon seemed a bit weird. Also, love the ferocious new m Horse

 

And super excited for the silvers... I'm just hoping they don't mess with the colors. some of my checkers would be shot

[kerrikins]

As I said before, playing a game does not equal the amount of work the artists put into their artwork. At all. Ever. Playing a game is playing a game - it's fun and is filled with enjoyment and it's a game, as well it should remain.

 

Art takes real effort, not only in the one project or sets of projects, but also all of the practice, patience, and energy put into getting to the skill level you rise up to to make such projects possible. Spent ten+ years drawing and honing your skills and have your concept get released for the enjoyment of others, and then you may speak to me of work.

I could be off base here, but I don't think that anyone here was actually saying 'my building a lineage is equivalent to an artist building a sprite'. I went back and reread the original post and I didn't see Cyradis draw any such comparison. They were just saying that making a lineage is indeed work, which is true - there are the hours spent catching, trading, influencing, picking colours and names, etc. Is it equivalent to spriting? Of course not, but it's still work.

 

 

As a side note, I am going to be completely frank and say that I do not like the way that things have seemed to turn lately. There is a distinct 'artist versus users' vibe as of late and that's not what I like from DC at all.

[cyradis4]

You're beating up a straw man there. Neither C4 nor anyone else said building lineages was AS hard work as spriting a dragon, or a comparable task in any way for that matter. We just said it IS hard work, and that it's disappointing to have our hard work ruined. Big difference.

Verridith, I was going to reply to you, but tjekan beat me to it. If you can't understand that very clear point she's making, then there's nothing I can talk to you about. I never said anything about who worked harder, and I never said artists didn't care. In fact, I said the opposite!

 

Can a brain function without a heart?

Does a heart have a purpose if it has no brain?

 

Artists and players are NOT "us vs them". You ARE us. Brain and heart. Both needing the other, both working hard in our own ways. Neither more important than the other, because without one you do not have the other.

 

I've been in the workforce for over 10 years. I am an engineer, with the experience and the degree to prove it. If I had a dollar for every time someone thought *really hard* about something, and still missed something critical.... I'd be a millionaire. In my line of work, missing something can easily result in death or deadly injury. Its *happened*. It doesn't mean you don't care. It just means you are human.

 

Thinking hard on something and missing something happens to even the best, highest trained professionals. Pretending that it doesn't happen to YOU is extremely arrogant.

 

Cheers!

C4.

 

 

[Starscream]

I will step in and say that there is no artist vs anyone going on. That is simply just people being upset and feeling slighted.

[Verridith]

My biggest thing, however, is that playing a game cannot really be considered true 'work' - not by my eyes. Just like the work of drawing/painting/spriting can't always be the kind of work that one does, say, to earn money working a retail job or cleaning horse pens. Art is enjoyable work, for the most part. Hard work yes, but enjoyable.

 

Building lineages, breeding dragons, naming dragons, etc is simply playing the game. Putting time and effort into it is a thing, yes. I've put hours upon hours into my own game here, building lineages and much more - I have over a thousand dragons now, and have been here for years. But I can't see where, say, me playing Final Fantasy to top levels, and getting the game completed at 100% is "work", just like playing on DC is "work".

 

Continuing with that example, say I've completed 85% of the game and for some reason, suddenly, one of the characters gets an update and a thousand percent more detail, shading, all of that. Does it erase everything that I've done so far? No. Do our dragon sprite updates go in and delete lineages that players may have made? No.

 

It may look a little different, yes, especially where the vision of the spriter/conceptor has changed, but most tweaks look better without ruining those lineages completely. Your lineages still exist, and no 'work' is being destroyed.

 

We artists will continue to try and make the site better, and will do art for you, the members. But please, show a little respect in that we do artistic work for free, while you play the game.

[Tinks.Mess]

Love the new looks Thank you for continuing to keep our dragons looking the best they can and taking the time to keep us informed.

[kerrikins]

I think this might just be an issue of semantics. Perhaps you should just mentally replace 'work' with 'effort', then. The meaning is the same. It's still hours of thought and preparation that is altered with the update of a sprite.

 

Also, the idea of whether or not a lineage is negatively impacted is up to the eye of the beholder tbh. Some people will think that their lineages are augmented with the changes, but others will indeed not like the changes and feel that their effort has been ruined. That is entirely subjective.

 

Note, I actually like the updates so far, just offering my opinion.

[Verridith]

I think this might just be an issue of semantics. Perhaps you should just mentally replace 'work' with 'effort', then. The meaning is the same. It's still hours of thought and preparation that is altered with the update of a sprite.

 

Also, the idea of whether or not a lineage is negatively impacted is up to the eye of the beholder tbh. Some people will think that their lineages are augmented with the changes, but others will indeed not like the changes and feel that their effort has been ruined. That is entirely subjective.

 

Note, I actually like the updates so far, just offering my opinion.

I can go along with that. And that's very true - half of the userbase things yay new sprites! The other half... not so much. We cannot please 100% of the people 100% of the time, I'm sad to say.