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2015-10-07 - Sprite Update (round one)

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Okay I've had the night to sleep on it and I've decided what my opinion is on the updated Holly sprite. The shading is a million times better. But I'm not sure I like the new head position. There's nothing wrong with the anatomy of it that I can see, I just don't care for the new position. The slightly lowered head of the old Holly gave the impression that either the Holly was shy or he was watching you very closely. Anyway, that's my opinion. All in all, the updated sprite is definitely an improvement because of the shading.

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To be fair I think tjekan was more trying to imply that artists don't try to preserve look of the lineage tile that's already on site when hashing out updates, which for the most part is untrue. We do take lineage view into account, sometimes obsessively so, but the adherence to the lineage view I think should not be held in high enough esteem that an artist must sacrifice his or her vision for their own breed or a chance to drastically improve sprite quality.

 

YMMV on the outcome of course.

Also, the times when that hasn't been taken into account tend to be very painful... And remembered. And the changes that were minor, and had little impact, tend to not be remembered. Human nature, sadly. The artists that do show respect are greatly appreciated, but sadly... Its the ones who don't that the userbase tends to remember... painfully.

 

There have been far more tweaks on the order of the Hollies than there have like the Nilia updates. In fact, the only two I can think of that were like the Nilias (completely new sprites and poses) were the Golds and Pinks. But the more minor ones that have happened, like the Sunrise females, Sunset males, Whiptails, GoN, and many others, aren't ever commented on.... Because their impact was minor.

 

As for the artists updating a sprite to match their visions.... Our views on this are different. I feel that once a sprite is released to the public, the artist has an ethical responsibility to take the effect changes will have on others into account, with the users needs taking priority over the artists desires. Once the sprite is released, the artist has given a gift to the userbase: substantial changes should from then on be avoided. Updates like the Hollies or other minor ones are fine, but wholesale sprite replacement like what happened with the Nilias and Golds should, in my opinion, be STRONGLY discouraged at the highest level and should only be permitted for the most extreme reasons. And I'm sorry, but "it doesn't match the artist's vision" really isn't, IMO, a good enough reason for a total sprite pose change on a sprite that is solid (that's how the Nilias look to me, because I cannot see the old pose in the new male). Golds... Anatomy was totally broken and needed a full over-haul. Pinks... People still get aggravated over. Dimorphism after the fact is also irritating.

 

Its like Amazon's quilt: the giftee would probably be perfectly ok with them repairing damage... But changing something significant after the fact would cause all sorts of anger.

 

Also, I wish that it would be announced when a sprite was released whether or not its a candidate for dimorphism.... And which sprite (male or female) will be changed. That way, players will KNOW not to use that sprite in anything where the pose is critical... because they'll know its going to change on them.

 

Cheers!

C4.

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I like the new holly, IMO it's a big improvement over the old one. The male horse is nice, it took a few days to really grow on me. But now I really like it. The nilias, the male is nice though I loved the old sprite. The female took some time but I do really like her now. I love, unlike a lot of others, the long neck. I tend to draw my dragons with longer necks unlike many here so it's just nice to see. I don't understand people saying she needs to be the same size as the male, or have the same proportions. She is the bigger sex with longer neck and limbs. I don't see a problem with the size of the sprites overall. The dragons are drawings we make, not the actual dragons. Overall I'm happy with the changes and looking forward to the rest. Personally I'd like to see all dragons have dimorphism, I like to have different male and female sprites. More variety and you get to see different angles even if they do look the same.

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Honestly, I'm just so happy about the Holly update because my favorite dragon on my entire scroll is a Holly and he just looks so spiffy I could cry.

Idk why this update means so much to me.

 

The nilias are sort of growing on me though. If that's how they're supposed to look, then it makes sense.

The new horse makes the Hellhorses make a lot more sense, though. Just to point that out. xd.png

 

 

I like the updates. Terrified we're going to get silvers that look absolutely nothing like the originals. That would be a worst-case scenario.

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-snipped for direct line replies-

 

...But the more minor ones that have happened, like the Sunrise females, Sunset males, Whiptails, GoN, and many others, aren't ever commented on.... Because their impact was minor...

 

...Also, I wish that it would be announced when a sprite was released whether or not its a candidate for dimorphism.... And which sprite (male or female) will be changed. That way, players will KNOW not to use that sprite in anything where the pose is critical... because they'll know its going to change on them.

I actually don't like the GoNs now, despite the minor tweaks xP

 

I have to say, that would be a great idea! I doubt it would happen though, because I'm sure a lot of them may not think of adding dimorphism until they are inspired by something, feel the need, and/or their art skills reach a level where they are confident they can do it.

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I actually don't like the GoNs now, despite the minor tweaks xP

Same, I used to really like the GoNs but now they are just not one of those beautiful dragons that got me to join Dragon Cave

 

Old Holly, Old GoN and the Stones

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Also, I wish that it would be announced when a sprite was released whether or not its a candidate for dimorphism.... And which sprite (male or female) will be changed. That way, players will KNOW not to use that sprite in anything where the pose is critical... because they'll know its going to change on them.

 

In the event a concept of mine is ever released that only has one adult sprite, it is fairly safe to assume that at some point, I will add a different gendered sprite. If there was a lot of negative crit when it came out, it would be safe to assume that eventually, it might get replaced. There is no guarentee that new sprites would ever happen, but it would be safe to assume they might.

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Always so far behind, this is the first I've heard of any of this.

 

All I can say is....change does not automatically equal better sad.gif

 

I'm sure there are many who feel otherwise, and I'm sure there was a lot of hard work put into these changes, and there have been many int he past I really truly loved - like the purples.

 

But I loved the nilias the way they were, even without dimorphism, and the new sprites have completely lost what it was I loved. It would be better, IMHO, to keep one sprite as the original, and just change one to something new, as was done previously, so you don't lose what you had before, but have added an option.

 

I suppose the horse is good, and makes a good fit for the hellhorse, too. But it's not actually enough of a change (they'll still be similar and facing the same way?) to want me jump for joy over new breeding possibilities. Personal preference, I suppose.

Edited by daba555

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In the event a concept of mine is ever released that only has one adult sprite, it is fairly safe to assume that at some point, I will add a different gendered sprite. If there was a lot of negative crit when it came out, it would be safe to assume that eventually, it might get replaced. There is no guarentee that new sprites would ever happen, but it would be safe to assume they might.

Which is just the thing: right now you have to assume that every single breed released without dimorphism will have it added later, with no way to predict which of the 2 sprites will be replaced. So right now, if someone does not want to risk having their work destroyed, then they must NOT use those pretty new sprites in any lineages.

 

Take Tangers, for instance. If memory serves, they were always meant to have dimorphism, but something went wonky in the process and the 2nd sprite wasn't complete when they were released. A heads-up of "Oh, and this species might be getting a different male sprite down the road" would let people know that yep... Its probably coming and it'll be the male: you can be confident of the female.

 

Or the opposite: "This breed is not meant to have dimorphism or different poses, and as such no 2nd pose will be added."

 

That would give the userbase much more confidence in what is happening or planned or desired, down the road. Because right now, you have to assume that any non-dimorphic sprite carries the text: "The artist can, at their discretion, add a dimorphic sprite to either the male or the female. There is no way to predict this, no way to know how close to the artist's vision the current sprite is, and you have to assume that either will change at some random point in the future be it months or years".

 

Frankly.... While I love dimorphic sprites, I'd have to say I'd rather no dimorphism be added to already released sprites unless it was stated up front that it was planned to be added.

 

Cheers!

C4.

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The Tangar was added within three months, though. I doubt many lineages had formed at that time.

 

Personally, I don't plan to retroactively add dimorphism to any breeds I make. It's nice to have the option of using one pose as either a male or a female in a lineage, and gives people more options, and breeds without any actual sexually dimorphic traits don't really need it.

Edited by PieMaster

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The Tangar was added within three months, though. I doubt many lineages had formed at that time.

 

Personally, I don't plan to retroactively add dimorphism to any breeds I make. It's nice to have the option of using one pose as either a male or a female in a lineage, and gives people more options, and breeds without any actual sexually dimorphic traits don't really need it.

Tangars were just an example, because it was general knowledge at the time that the male was always planned and people knew it was coming. It was not a statement of "this messed things up".

 

And that statement you made about the sprites you make is actually just what I'd like to see, for each species:

"This species is meant to have just 1 pose and I have no plans to add any retro-active sprites".

Or:

"This species will someday likely have a 2nd pose / dimorphism, on the (male / female / don't know)"

 

A little heads up can go a long way. Because right now, if you hadn't said "I have no plans to retroactively add dimorphism", I as an end-user would have had to assume that you DID plan to add dimorphism to every species you did in order to prevent unwanted changes.

 

Cheers!

C4.

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Which is just the thing: right now you have to assume that every single breed released without dimorphism will have it added later, with no way to predict which of the 2 sprites will be replaced. So right now, if someone does not want to risk having their work destroyed, then they must NOT use those pretty new sprites in any lineages.

 

Take Tangers, for instance. If memory serves, they were always meant to have dimorphism, but something went wonky in the process and the 2nd sprite wasn't complete when they were released. A heads-up of "Oh, and this species might be getting a different male sprite down the road" would let people know that yep... Its probably coming and it'll be the male: you can be confident of the female.

 

Or the opposite: "This breed is not meant to have dimorphism or different poses, and as such no 2nd pose will be added."

 

That would give the userbase much more confidence in what is happening or planned or desired, down the road. Because right now, you have to assume that any non-dimorphic sprite carries the text: "The artist can, at their discretion, add a dimorphic sprite to either the male or the female. There is no way to predict this, no way to know how close to the artist's vision the current sprite is, and you have to assume that either will change at some random point in the future be it months or years".

 

Frankly.... While I love dimorphic sprites, I'd have to say I'd rather no dimorphism be added to already released sprites unless it was stated up front that it was planned to be added.

 

Cheers!

C4.

I mean, I can understand this idea, but then it also puts an artist in an awkward spot if they first say "nah I don't want dimorphism" and TJ says that in public, and then the artist changes their mind down the road for one reason or another. It kind of locks them into a long-term decision that they might not be happy with later on.

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I just wish people wouldn't feel compelled to make everything dimorphic. Dimorphism is nice, sure, but there are plenty of breeds that are fine without it, and it can make for some fun lineages. There's nothing inherently "wrong" or "lacking" about single sprite breeds. I hope that all the splitting into two sprites that seems to keep happening (slowly, yes, but still happening) doesn't ever make people feel they /must/ have dimorphism to get a breed released.

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I will say that if any of my non-dimorphed breeds get released, I will always reserve the right to make an opposite gender sprite if my skill level and motivation someday dictates. I do have several projects that currently do not have dimorphism, and I call them done despite the fact that I may feel like doing a male or female sprite for them someday.

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I will say that if any of my non-dimorphed breeds get released, I will always reserve the right to make an opposite gender sprite if my skill level and motivation someday dictates. I do have several projects that currently do not have dimorphism, and I call them done despite the fact that I may feel like doing a male or female sprite for them someday.

Me too. My skills arent that great, and anyone who spends any time following me as I work on things knows just how many changes happen as my skills grow.

 

I have two concepts that I want to add a new sprite for, but I do not have the skills to attempt new poses for them. If they were to be released (not that i'm going to hold my breath) i would have NO issue stating "these sprites are not exactly what i wanted them to be, and may be updated at a later date to include (things that didnt happen, such as different gender or missing details that could not be done properly at the time) However, adding a disclaimer like that BEFORE release... wouldnt that mark it as not being complete, therefore, not releasable?

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I mean, I can understand this idea, but then it also puts an artist in an awkward spot if they first say "nah I don't want dimorphism" and TJ says that in public, and then the artist changes their mind down the road for one reason or another. It kind of locks them into a long-term decision that they might not be happy with later on.

Yep, it does. Which is the entire point of the suggestion: for the artists to voluntarily surrender the right to add dimorphism to an already released species, because dimorphsim after the fact is usually far more destructive than sprite updates in general.

 

Or for the artist to state up-front that the species is meant to have dimorphism and it may come later on.

 

It gives the users something solid to base assumptions on. Yes, it might add some slight constraint to the artists.... But is giving up that tiny bit of power so painful?

 

The horse update isn't that big, but I absolutely hate the new Nilia females. They are well executed, and I know that neck pose happens in the wild... but I still think it looks like someone hit the poor thing with a cinderblock and I shudder every time I see it (same with female Tsunamis, hence why I never use them in lineages). I have a 5th gen Pumpkin lineage with female Nilias. Had I known female dimorphsim was likely, I would have either gone with males.... or more likely, chosen Crimson Flares, instead. Now I have a lineage I spent many years building.... Which I can't stand to even look at.

 

 

ETA:

I will say that if any of my non-dimorphed breeds get released, I will always reserve the right to make an opposite gender sprite if my skill level and motivation someday dictates. I do have several projects that currently do not have dimorphism, and I call them done despite the fact that I may feel like doing a male or female sprite for them someday.

And that sort of statement is exactly what would be nice: A statement that whether or not it ever happens, there's a strong chance that a 2nd gender could be added. And I, personally, wouldn't use your non-dimorphic species in lineages. But the Golden Wyverns, which are already dimorphic, I wouldn't feel too many qualms with using (I use Golden Wyvern males a lot).

 

Cheers!

C4.

Edited by cyradis4

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Just out of curiosity: Has there been a change in the rules for pygmy sprites? I wondered this before, when the magelights were released, as they look bigger than the other pygmies on site. Since all others looked more compact, I guess I always thought the size limits for the sprite were like that.

No because there's never been a strict rule for pygmy sprites, only a suggested limit that I, not TJ, determined based on what pygmy sprites had been in cave at the time.

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Me too. My skills arent that great, and anyone who spends any time following me as I work on things knows just how many changes happen as my skills grow.

 

I have two concepts that I want to add a new sprite for, but I do not have the skills to attempt new poses for them. If they were to be released (not that i'm going to hold my breath) i would have NO issue stating "these sprites are not exactly what i wanted them to be, and may be updated at a later date to include (things that didnt happen, such as different gender or missing details that could not be done properly at the time) However, adding a disclaimer like that BEFORE release... wouldnt that mark it as not being complete, therefore, not releasable?

Question, Thu: Why are you releasing an incomplete sprite in the first place? Something you know WILL likely change later? Knowing full well that *once released* the sprite as it is will get its share of fans? Who will all be very upset and hurt when the sprite is later changed?

 

If its just the 2nd sprite that would be likely to have major changes, I wouldn't call it incomplete, myself. If the sprite as currently done is so far off from your final vision of the dragon that extreme changes would likely occur, the question I ask above applies again: WHY are you asking the userbase to fall in love with a sprite that you have every intention of radically changing?

 

Cheers!

C4.

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Question, Thu: Why are you releasing an incomplete sprite in the first place? Something you know WILL likely change later? Knowing full well that *once released* the sprite as it is will get its share of fans? Who will all be very upset and hurt when the sprite is later changed?

 

If its just the 2nd sprite that would be likely to have major changes, I wouldn't call it incomplete, myself. If the sprite as currently done is so far off from your final vision of the dragon that extreme changes would likely occur, the question I ask above applies again: WHY are you asking the userbase to fall in love with a sprite that you have every intention of radically changing?

 

Cheers!

C4.

One of my concepts, has taken me over two years to finally get as CLOSE to what i was aiming for, as i can within my current skill set. I know I want a second sprite eventually, but i also know that the thing that caused me to take so long on the already existing finished sprites, I can not replicated on a second sprite at this time. The concept is done enough that i am proud of it, and can be sure people would enjoy playing with them in lineages, if by some miracle they were actually even seriously considered to be released. Being a lineage builder, i also know how important those silly little lineage tiles are for people, and would account for that in the event I ever had the skills to pull off the original thing i was aiming for.

 

The concept im referencing up there, has things in the works to expand on them even further, despite the extra sprites themselves NOT being complete. They have an interesting mechanic planned for them that eventually could be added, but are not REQUIRED for its initial release, as all of the cb sprites would share the same image anyhow. They would never actually have to happen. But they COULD if my skills get to that point.

 

Like i said, anyone who follows along concepts I have done, or am doing, knows they are constantly evolving. The two concepts that I know i want to add other sprites to, I would have no problem announcing that, if that would make people more comfortable in the future. I dont feel that it needs to be required. Im flexible enough to be willing to clearly announce it, if its needed, but I dont see it as a requirement.

 

Of course, you already know how i tend to feel about things like that from our offsite chatter tongue.gif

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I just wish people wouldn't feel compelled to make everything dimorphic. Dimorphism is nice, sure, but there are plenty of breeds that are fine without it, and it can make for some fun lineages. There's nothing inherently "wrong" or "lacking" about single sprite breeds. I hope that all the splitting into two sprites that seems to keep happening (slowly, yes, but still happening) doesn't ever make people feel they /must/ have dimorphism to get a breed released.

My thoughts exactly. smile.gif There is nothing at all wrong with single sprite dragons. Some of my favorites on DC are just that way! For example, I absolutely love the Royal Crimson, the Pyralspite, and the Lunar Herald. These are just a few examples.

 

*Edit: Obviously two of my examples have different colors, but I'm talking about the pose mainly. tongue.gif

Edited by Eos

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The more I look at the Hollies the more I love them. I can't wait to breed them on Christmas! wub.gif

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Love the updates. The Holly looks much better now, imo, and I really love the change to the Nillia. I've never been a huge fan of Horses so I'm kind of 'eh' about their change, but I'm a gigantic fan of dimorphism so I can appreciate it for that if nothing else.

 

I personally wish all the sprites would have dimorphism; I find single-pose dragons to be, well... kind of boring, lol. But I can understand why people would prefer not all the dragons in the Cave to be dimorphic.

 

Looking forward to seeing the Silver changes!

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