ANSWERED:Multi clutch for Prize dragons?

[Syphoneira]

Gonna play devils advocate for a moment, so don't hate.

 

And probably not going to put this quite right, but .... The winners technically only win a prize, to do with as they please, breed it or not, freeze it, kill it, release it. We only assume that means they get total say over the offspring too because that is the way it has been so far.

But that's not a given, is it? Who is to say whether or not that is the way it should be. The trade market is all wonky because of prize offspring, so why wouldn't it make sense to see if changing things up could fix that.

 

How the prize behaves, the results of the breeding- that just sort of comes along with the territory, whether that means unbreedable prizes, prizes that breed only a non shiny, prizes that multiclutch and give the scroll owner the option of keeping none, one, or all, etc, etc. IMO it is very much like the holidays, they come with a particular set of restrictions and if you want a holiday dragon you accept those restrictions. You always have the choice to turn it down if it doesn't meet your wants.

 

 

 

 

Actually, I believe that it was only some of the Prize winners, perhaps ones who haven't been around DC much or long, who assumed that they'd have rights over all eggs in multiclutches from their dragons, while others only said that they'd rather not breed at all than risk losing control over any eggs from the dragons they'd won.

 

 

With single-egg clutches, the owner has total control over the egg.

 

With multi-clutches, only one.

 

The principle is constant in multi-clutches to ensure that excess eggs are available to the community, if I correctly recall what TJ said years back.

 

This is aside from the principle being evident in the reasoning involved in initially instituting multi-clutches specifically to provide AP eggs to the community in a time of deficiency,

 

and as in removing them for Cave-available eggs (and those hybrids derived from those Cave-available eggs,) when they were no longer necessary to supply the community and had became a chronic problem in clogging the AP even when mass-breeding was not involved,

 

and also in the retention of multi-clutching for Holiday eggs, so that they would be available to the community.

 

Multi-clutching has always existed only for the provision of the community, and for the purpose of sharing. (Edit: I'd better qualify that, lol, with 'as far as I know', because I don't always know very far. )

 

I naturally have no idea what TJ will decide, but I'd be rather surprised if he used the mechanism to enable people to keep additional eggs from clutches.

 

 

(Edit: for getting my merds wixed - needz waaaaay more sleep...)

Edited January 5, 2015 by Syphoneira

[olympe]

I agree. But you made a very important point: Multi-clutching has always existed only for the provision of the community, and for the purpose of sharing.

 

Sure, this would also apply to higher-gen prizes. But I think prizes fit the bill quite nicely. Sure, people who're active on the forums have numerous prizes - but casual players without connections often still don't have any, much less nice-lineaged ones of every available breed and color.

 

Of course, some CB owners might refuse to breed their prize then - but what will it achieve? Only that those people who do breed will have better chances of getting multiple shinies to share. (Besides, if you're a CB prize owner and refuse to breed because you just might be forced to send an egg to the AP, you're shooting yourself in the foot.)

[Syphoneira]

I agree. But you made a very important point: Multi-clutching has always existed only for the provision of the community, and for the purpose of sharing.

 

Sure, this would also apply to higher-gen prizes. But I think prizes fit the bill quite nicely. Sure, people who're active on the forums have numerous prizes - but casual players without connections often still don't have any, much less nice-lineaged ones of every available breed and color.

 

Of course, some CB owners might refuse to breed their prize then - but what will it achieve? Only that those people who do breed will have better chances of getting multiple shinies to share. (Besides, if you're a CB prize owner and refuse to breed because you just might be forced to send an egg to the AP, you're shooting yourself in the foot.)

 

 

 

Exactly.

 

We now have TWO mechanisms for sharing randomly throughout the community: the Raffle, and multi-clutches.

 

I think they'd work well together, and would love my lower-gens to share in it, because that's what the community needs.

 

Longer-gens are already all over and lengthening rapidly, lol - the community doesn't really need more of those...

 

But the odds would, I expect, still be very much against even one shiny per breeding, (at least going by my scroll, lol,) and I'm afraid that, even assuming that the ratios were increased with the multi-clutching, (which would be essential!) that very few shiny 'extra's' would be produced for the AP by each dragon per year, although even one or two 2nd/3rd/4th gen from each annually would help a bit.

 

But it's been pointed out that this would help speed up production on lists by producing more eggs of whatever variety, which would benefit owners, listers and 'wait'ers, lol, and take some pressure off owners as well.

 

 

Unfortunately, it's not very logical for owners to be upset that as the only and VERY limited source of 2nd gen Prizes, people with CB Prizes are being driven around the bend by endless trading requests while nonetheless demanding that they remain as the only and VERY limited source of 2nd gen Prizes.

 

The only sensible thing to do is to work on improving the situation for everyone, and the multi-clutching with increased productivity (and hopefully a greater number of Prize-winners with CBs) would seem to be the way to go.

 

Having the odd 'extra' which otherwise wouldn't be produced would have been something I would have thought painless, but I suppose all of the fruitless breeding and endless waiting for shiny eggs has taken its toll on people...

[Fuzzbucket]

I agree. But you made a very important point: Multi-clutching has always existed only for the provision of the community, and for the purpose of sharing.

 

Sure, this would also apply to higher-gen prizes. But I think prizes fit the bill quite nicely. Sure, people who're active on the forums have numerous prizes - but casual players without connections often still don't have any, much less nice-lineaged ones of every available breed and color.

 

Of course, some CB owners might refuse to breed their prize then - but what will it achieve? Only that those people who do breed will have better chances of getting multiple shinies to share. (Besides, if you're a CB prize owner and refuse to breed because you just might be forced to send an egg to the AP, you're shooting yourself in the foot.)

I'm with you here. Sharing is GOOD

[whitebaron]

Of course, some CB owners might refuse to breed their prize then - but what will it achieve? Only that those people who do breed will have better chances of getting multiple shinies to share. (Besides, if you're a CB prize owner and refuse to breed because you just might be forced to send an egg to the AP, you're shooting yourself in the foot.)

 

If I had a CB prize, and this proposal was in action, you can damn well be sure I'd breed it only once. For myself. And hope for no second prize egg.

 

You make it seem like every prize owner needs to make profit or gifts of his dragons, which is obviously NOT true.

 

As for the casual players without connections: they most likely won't scour the AP, and thus won't get those extra prizes you refer to.

 

--

 

DC is, as the introduction of teleport, a game that includes trading. As such, it will always involve richer people, some of them generous, some of them greedy, and poorer people, also some of them generous and some of them greedy. DC has no real particular problem with that, it's mostly the middle to richer people who complain about not being able to do everything they want.

 

--

 

Having the odd 'extra' which otherwise wouldn't be produced would have been something I would have thought painless, but I suppose all of the fruitless breeding and endless waiting for shiny eggs has taken its toll on people...

The problem is, unless ratios do not count multi-clutched eggs, every multiclutch egg you can't keep means one you can't breed again, basically working against the owner of said dragon.

Edited January 5, 2015 by whitebaron

[MedievalMystic]

Who is to say whether or not that is the way it should be.

 

And who is to say it shouldn't be?

 

Multi-clutching has always existed only for the provision of the community, and for the purpose of sharing.

 

Yes, well, the community has plenty of dragons, tons of dragons, hoards of dragons, in vast, endless abundance to share with everyone. I don't think a unique, special prize, not meant to be common in the least, or TJ would simply do away with the raffle, hand them out to everyone and have them start dropping in the cave, should be turned into a brood sow for the sole purpose of appeasing the multitudes that are unhappy about it for whatever reason.

 

Besides, if you're a CB prize owner and refuse to breed because you just might be forced to send an egg to the AP, you're shooting yourself in the foot.

 

Forced being the operative word. Who here would ever want to be forced into doing anything against their will by anybody for any reason? Yet that's exactly what people are trying to do here. Trying to force someone to do something they might not want to do for my own personal gain is pretty damn distasteful to me and I don't care how people try and justify it to themselves and call it 'right'. To me, this smacks of wrong any way you slice it.

 

Sharing is GOOD

 

Yeah, it is. If that's what someone chooses to do. If they're forced to, there's nothing 'good' about it.

Edited January 5, 2015 by MedievalMystic

[CNR4806]

And who is to say it shouldn't be?

And what's your point? If you're implying that it is the way that should be, then please give an actual argument so that we may actually consider your viewpoint, not answering a question with another question and wrap people into even more riddles.

 

Yes, well, the community has plenty of dragons, tons of dragons, hoards of dragons,  in vast, endless abundance to share with everyone.  I don't think a unique, special prize, not meant to be common in the least, or TJ would simply do away with the raffle,  hand them out to everyone and have them start dropping in the cave,  should be turned into a brood sow for the sole purpose of appeasing the multitudes that are unhappy about it for whatever reason.

Here you're jumping down the slippery slope.

 

Multiclutching takes away the exclusive control of all offspring from any particular prize dragon (I'm against low-gen-only multiclutching, but that point seems to be buried in the thread). Unlike your "logical next step" of releasing CB prizes to the cave (which, incidently, has been suggested before), it does not take away the fundamental meaning of winning a prize: Having an exclusive CB dragon that only fellow winners can own.

 

Forced being the operative word.  Who here would ever want to be forced into doing anything against their will by anybody for any reason?  Yet that's exactly what people are trying to do here.  Trying to force someone to do something they might not want to do  for my own personal gain is pretty damn distasteful to me and I don't care how people try and justify it to themselves and call it 'right'.  To me, this smacks of wrong any way you slice it.

 

Yeah, it is.  If that's what someone chooses to do.  If they're forced to, there's nothing 'good' about it.

The same could be said for holidays, which on top of multiclutching have *gasp* CB limits to FORCE people from taking as many as they otherwise can, so that others may have a chance! The HORROR!

 

You know, multiclutching isn't the new nuke. It has been in place for holidays since the beginning and had been in place for all other dragons until it went poof some day, as (AFAIK) TJ decided there would be enough eggs in rotation without it.

Edited January 5, 2015 by CNR4806

[LadyLyzar]

People, settle down and step back. I understand this is a heated topic and emotions are running high. The tone of this topic is rapidly escalating and I do not want to have to close it.

 

Appearance wise, there is no difference between a 2nd gen prize sprite and a 10th gen one, so any "value" ascribed to a dragon's lineage is entirely determined by the player base.

 

Personally I do not support random multi-clutching of non-Holiday dragons of any species, Prizes or not. The AP has enough of a backlog as it is. (I am fine with Holiday multi-clutches due to the limited breeding period for these dragons. Prizes have no such mechanic.)

 

I also find it to be quite unfair to coerce someone to share their Prize's offspring if they do not want to by way of involuntary multi-clutching. IMO this is akin to undiscovered "relatives" showing up after someone wins a cash lottery.

 

A CB Prize is the owner's dragon and they should have the right to do with it (and the offspring) as they so choose, while remaining free of unwanted harassment. Having a special multi-clutch exception for low-gen Prizes seems to be rather targeted and unnecessary, and I would honestly feel it to be harassment by way of site mechanics.

 

If multi-clutching of ANY non-Holidays were to be implemented, I would like to see it on a purely voluntary, BSA-related basis. The BSA should have limited usage to avoid mass breeds of multiples of any species. Also, the BSA should have a chance to fail (no egg produced or just one) and/or produce eggs of either parent.

[olympe]

Well, you can still choose to not breed. Unfortunately, it wouldn't allow you to turn your CB prize into a "brood sow" for the sole purpose of adding to the owner's trading power, either. But that would be your choice then. (This is still all theoretical since I don't know MM to be a prize owner.)

 

Honestly, I think that most CB prize owners who breed now would still be breeding if they ran the risk of getting multiple eggs. For once, they'd be the first to benefit in case of a mixed clutch, and second, they'd retire their DC money printing press if they didn't.

[cyradis4]

Personally, I still prefer a multi-clutch BSA.

 

How I view it:

CB Prizes already get so much fun! Why can't my commons have the same fun with multi-clutches?

 

Cheers!

C4.

[MedievalMystic]

I also find it to be quite unfair to coerce someone to share their Prize's offspring if they do not want to by way of involuntary multi-clutching. IMO this is akin to undiscovered "relatives" showing up after someone wins a cash lottery.

 

A CB Prize is the owner's dragon and they should have the right to do with it (and the offspring) as they so choose, while remaining free of unwanted harassment. Having a special multi-clutch exception for low-gen Prizes seems to be rather targeted and unnecessary, and I would honestly feel it to be harassment by way of site mechanics.

 

THIS is my point, CNR, said better by LadyL than myself.

 

Well, you can still choose to not breed. Unfortunately, it wouldn't allow you to turn your CB prize into a "brood sow" for the sole purpose of adding to the owner's trading power, either. But that would be your choice then. (This is still all theoretical since I don't know MM to be a prize owner.)

 

Honestly, I think that most CB prize owners who breed now would still be breeding if they ran the risk of getting multiple eggs. For once, they'd be the first to benefit in case of a mixed clutch, and second, they'd retire their DC money printing press if they didn't.

 

So, again, the choices would be breed and be forced to give to the masses whether someone wanted to or not, or not breed and be forced to do without their Prize dragon's eggs. That's just...brilliant.

[CNR4806]

I also find it to be quite unfair to coerce someone to share their Prize's offspring if they do not want to by way of involuntary multi-clutching.  IMO this is akin to undiscovered "relatives" showing up after someone wins a cash lottery. 

 

A CB Prize is the owner's dragon and they should have the right to do with it (and the offspring) as they so choose, while remaining free of unwanted harassment.  Having a special multi-clutch exception for low-gen Prizes seems to be rather targeted and unnecessary, and I would honestly feel it to be harassment by way of site mechanics.

 

If multi-clutching of ANY non-Holidays were to be implemented, I would like to see it on a purely voluntary, BSA-related basis. The BSA should have limited usage to avoid mass breeds of multiples of any species. Also, the BSA should have a chance to fail (no egg produced or just one) and/or produce eggs of either parent.

This is when you view the player-driven money-printing ability of the prize dragon as part of the prize itself.

 

No one here is trying to take bites at the prize itself proper, as in the CB prize dragon that the winners actually win from the raffle. The release CB prize suggestion fills that bill.

 

Grouping prizes with the standard non-holiday dragons is also not exactly what I'd agree with. They are definitely special dragons in that the access to CBs is restricted to a very few players, which population does not grow in scale with the overall playerbase growth.

 

 

And yes, I agree that having multiclutching for low-gen prizes only is playing favorite. I myself prefer universal multiclutching across all prizes regardless of lineage.

Edited January 5, 2015 by CNR4806

[LadyLyzar]

I don't think we quite disagree here CNR, but I do take a few issues here.

 

I've seen the terms money-printing and "brood sow" - again, this somewhat unfairly lumps all CB Prize owners into a category that many do not fit into. Many of them gift, lotto, etc - and I use "owners" instead of "winners" because some CB prizes have been traded or abandoned. Yes, some Prize owners do trade for highly "valued" things, but not all. I do not see a point in penalizing someone based on their style of gameplay just because they got really lucky.

 

Also, "money" is something that does not exist anywhere in the game mechanics. Rather, trading works more like bartering. The "worth" of the dragon in question is something that is ascribed by its owner and the person trading for it. If someone is willing to trade ten CB golds for a 2nd gen prize, that is their decision. No one has to make or accept such an offer.

 

There is also not a scarcity of Prize dragons as their breeding is exponential. It is slow at first, but they are everywhere in a matter of months. Hence why I see no need for forced multi-clutching of any Prize breed regardless of its lineage, especially since value based on lineage is an entirely player-driven mechanic.

 

If people want to breed multiples, IMO it should be at their discretion and should apply to any pairing.

 

Do I think the raffle system is perfect? Of course not - it evolves every time and the number of prizes awarded has increased. However, I don't think that winning a Prize should cause someone to be subject to restrictive gameplay mechanics made especially for them.

[Syphoneira]

The problem is, unless ratios do not count multi-clutched eggs, every multiclutch egg you can't keep means one you can't breed again, basically working against the owner of said dragon.

 

 

Does it work so that each individual dragon only produces so many eggs, or is it part of a pool with certain variable odds showing at certain moments?

 

Is there any actual reason to assume that any Prize egg bred would come off that particular dragon's 'allowance' of eggs, or perhaps that of one of the hundreds or possibly thousands? of 8th, 10th or 14th gens potentially being bred around that time by those with nothing better, as opposed to that of the relatively few CBs, 2nd and 3rd gens?

 

I'd long since stopped breeding dragons over 6th gen and now rarely breed 5th gens; I was under the impression that the ratios for each sprite covered the lot, even though the corollary involving the eggs most wanted being those least likely to be produced does seem to muddy the waters.

 

But the Prizes are not in themselves rare - only the actual CBs are, making a small originating breeding pool the only bottle-neck.

 

Get more 2nd gens into the breeding pool, to increase the 3rd gens produced, and more 4th gens get bred - the same as on your scroll as it would be throughout DC.

 

Then some of the pressure starts to come off owners as well.

 

Not that they're obligated to breed - if it's no fun, why bother?

 

 

To quote from my previous post:

 

'... But the odds would, I expect, still be very much against even one shiny per breeding, (at least going by my scroll, lol,) and I'm afraid that, even assuming that the ratios were increased with the multi-clutching, (which would be essential!) that very few shiny 'extra's' would be produced for the AP by each dragon per year, although even one or two 2nd/3rd/4th gen from each annually would help a bit.

 

But it's been pointed out that this would help speed up production on lists by producing more eggs of whatever variety, which would benefit owners, listers and 'wait'ers, lol, and take some pressure off owners as well. ...

 

 

I'd consider that an increase in the ratios would be necessary for multi-clutching although it would (unfortunately from my personal viewpoint) not be common for more than one shiny to be produced.

 

However, it's been pointed out that the number of non-shiny eggs produced would increase, effectively producing the effects of up to 4 tries in one go - a whole month's worth of breeding, perhaps, every week.

 

This should increase the chance of a shiny appearing in any given breeding.

 

And I would so love this, lol - my lower gens produce a lot of not-what-I'd-hoped-for results, lol.

 

 

[MedievalMystic]

"brood sow"

 

I wasn't talking about or thinking about prize owners with that term, just to be clear on that...

[whitebaron]

syphoneira, sadly ratios do not work like that.

 

get more second gens, bottleneck will be third gens. also, cbs and second gens do not inherently breed worse - they are just a lot less in numbers than say, 5th gens. My guess that somewhere around 5 to 6g lies the peak of the bell curve of price dragon gens.

 

 

and EVERY dragon bred, reduces the chances of every other dragon to breed. but its doubly frustrating for someone if

1) you produced it itself and didnt even want to.

2) the lucky person who found it, can produce lots and lots more of it that is possibly unwanted.

 

@LadyLyzar: I'm not sure anymore, if I am more in love with your alt heartseekers or that post.

[Fiona]

I have decided, after considerable thought, that I am quite opposed to this suggestion, or any form of multi-clutching, returning. It's true that some breeds could benefit from people trying to breed many more of them, but those aren't the breeds that people would try to get multi-clutches from. Using multi-clutch on prizes would be all very well and good except that the largest impact would be many more long lineaged or messy bred ones, not the second gens that people are craving. Remember, TJ did say that there are a lot of prize dragons around. It's just that the number of CB or low gen is few. So, everyone with a prize is breeding their prizes because shiny, and the chances of breeding that 2nd gen is that much less.

 

Plus, it is clear that there are plenty of eggs waiting for people to pick them up. We don't really need an increase in eggs produced overall. All multi-clutches would really do is for people to use it to try to get more of the breeds that they already find in short supply. The breeds we need many more of would be ignored and would get to be worse blockers than they already are.

 

Yes, this is just my opinion on what would happen. I am however firmly convinced this would be the result.

[LadyLyzar]

I wasn't talking about or thinking about prize owners with that term, just to be clear on that...

Oh no, I didn't believe that at all.

 

Also @Fi - this is why any multi-clutch BSA would have to be extremely limited in usage (for example, how Summon takes all the Trios on your scroll regardless of the number) and also have a chance to fail based on if the dragons breed successfully at all.

 

However, if the ratios work and continue to work as we believe them to, then I do think that this would be the long-term result as Prizes cannot drop in the cave.

[Starscream]

I am in agreement with Ladylyzar that changing the mechanics to a multi-breed for prizes is a form of harassment through the site. And Pretty much anyone who knows me, should realise I stand against any form of harassment of site users/and prize owners.

[MedievalMystic]

If there isn't already, I honestly believe that there should be a rule in place against harassment of any kind of other members. On other games I play, PMing people and asking them to give you stuff is considered begging and is very much frowned upon and prohibited. If someone does that and gets reported they get warned and if they do it again and get reported a second time they have a mail ban for a week or two. Something like that really needs to be in place here, imo. I don't think it's right that people can freely bombard someone with unwanted requests, especially Prize winners who are, I think, the biggest target for that. If a prize winner indicates through their sig or in a thread that they welcome requests or are starting a list and invite people to get on it, then it's fine, people can approach them. But if they indicate that they don't want to deal with requests or PMs, I think people should be required per a rule to respect that and if they don't, I think there should be consequences. Nobody should have to deal with being harassed or pressured in any way, shape or form and there should be something that protects people from that, imo.

Edited January 6, 2015 by MedievalMystic

[Jazeki]

@MedievalMystic-There are rules already in place for that.

 

As for this suggestion, I don't believe it's harassment. Users want to find a way to increase the low gen breeding pool because that is what is suggested in the OP. However, no one is implying that prize owners must breed if this is implemented or that breeding will always result in four shiny eggs that will leave owners with an unwilling sacrifice to the community. Many users have also expressed interest in multi-clutching for all prizes or all dragons instead. The suggestion may focus on low-gen prizes, but the intention is not to harass.

[MedievalMystic]

@MedievalMystic-There are rules already in place for that.

 

What does it say? If there's a rule in place that prohibits the kind of harassment I'm talking about, why are Prize winners mail boxes exploding and stuffed to the gills almost immediately after people discover who the winners are? Why do Prize winners talk about feeling so much pressure? If there's some rule in place preventing PMing them and pressuring them, which is what I'm talking about, then people are obviously ignoring it.

Edited January 6, 2015 by MedievalMystic

[angelicdragonpuppy]

What does it say? If there's a rule in place that prohibits the kind of harassment I'm talking about, why are Prize winners mail boxes exploding and stuffed to the gills almost immediately after people discover who the winners are? Why do Prize winners talk about feeling so much pressure? If there's some rule in place preventing PMing them and pressuring them, which is what I'm talking about, then people are obviously ignoring it.

Pretty sure it falls under this, under "rules" in the top left of the forum:

 

Respect Others

It isn't possible to get far in the world if you refuse to respect others. Treat others kindly, don't insult them, and others will do the same in return. If you refuse to treat others well, then you will get not only a warning, but a bad reputation, which opens the door for more negativity.

 

Even Prize owners who keep lists and are open to requests can feel pressured, though. A gold shimmer winner from a year or two took on 60+ trade requests and promptly quit (no surprise there), other people who took on much smaller lists have had terrible luck and feel awful about it taking so long, other people want to share 2gs but just feel overwhelmed because there are so many people who want them and they can't help everyone...

 

All problems which really can't be solved unless either the amount of winners begins to increase drastically, or CB Prizes are released in the cave several years after their initial release. The only way to take off the pressure is to change the ridiculous 1 to several hundred ratio of prize winners to normal players. Would probably do a lot to balance the trade threads, too.

[CNR4806]

What does it say?   If there's a rule in place that prohibits the kind of harassment I'm talking about, why are Prize winners mail boxes exploding and stuffed to the gills almost immediately after people discover who the winners are?  Why do Prize winners talk about feeling so much pressure?   If there's some rule in place preventing PMing them and pressuring them, which is what I'm talking about, then people are obviously ignoring it.

... Because rules are enforced after violation, not by having mods stand behind everyone's computers and stopping them dead on the tracks before they can send a PM deemed "harassment"?

 

You can warn, punish and perhaps ban offenders FOREVER after they've committed the act, but you can't stop them from doing that in the first place.

Edited January 6, 2015 by CNR4806

[Jazeki]

Internet is crappy. Hope this finally posts....

 

From the Trading sub-forum rules here: notice regarding trade harrassment. I am not about to reason why as I don't do it and I'm not a prize winner. I understand the pressure of yearly IOUs, but my experiences are different than other players'.