ANSWERED:Multi clutch for Prize dragons?

[Melatte]

I am strictly opposed to anything that could effect the rarity and value of prize offspring. People often forget that this is still a game, and it is important for there to be hard-to-reach goals. Not only does it keep users around because there is always more for them to strive for, but it gives them a sense of accomplishment when they have achieved their goals. A 2G prize offspring that you slaved over to get means something to you because you worked hard for it.

 

If anything, I think that getting prize dragons should be much, much harder than it already is.

 

 

I suppose this is something that isn't going to go away though. I have seen it in many other games. You want the things you want to be easier to obtain, no one can blame you, but I like my goals hard or nearly impossible. So I really, really hope this suggestion is never implemented.

[Dubious]

Holidays are limited to breeding once per year and are also distributed in the spirit of the season. For me the multiclutch with holidays has always made sense because there are so many newbies who need to get those dragons every year, and there are enough breeds now that a newbie may need multiple years to collect all the breeds. These reasons make sense to me. Christmas is the season of giving, Halloween is the season of greed, as we might put it. Valentine's Day is the season of love, you might say.

 

Prize dragons do not breed only once per year, and are not distributed in the spirit of the season. The reasons that apply to holiday dragons do not apply to prize dragons. It's not Christmas. It's not Halloween.

 

So it really doesn't make sense to arbitrarily say 'well, these dragons should behave differently from EVERY other dragon on the site' for reasons that basically amount to 'well, we want eggs from those dragons' from the rest of DC. I honestly think that this amounts to some people wanting their low-gen prizes as fast as possible and wanting to put arbitrary changes on prize owners just to get them.

 

Again I completely disagree...a mere 'handful' of prize dragons are handed out every year, in comparison to the sheer number of folks playing Drag Cave. Consequently 'newbies' and the vast majority of folks take literally over a year to get a 'prize dragon'.

 

I would also point out that the raffle is considered part of the 'Spirit of the Christmas Season' in that we collect tickets as part of the Christmas event and it is considered the christmas raffle. So where is the spirit of christmas when it comes to prize dragons...or is it only confined to the few days of Christmas? No seriously, what is so wrong about spreading the joy of the raffle quicker? Everyone participated and did the work to enter the raffle. I fail to see why people are considered 'selfish' for considering that a faster and more wide spread distribution of prize dragons would benefit so many and make so many happy sooner.

 

So no sorry, I don't see prize dragons as being the same as the rest of the dragons available in the cave all year round. I don't see why prize winners should have rights beyond the ownership of a CB prize to the control every single offspring. I see no difference between CB Holly owners and CB prize owners and do not see why the same rights are denied to one and not the other when both were won in the raffle, and lastly I don't see what is wrong with distributing the prize dragons offspring more when it means that the pressure is lifted from prize owners and more people are happy all around.

 

In general in this thread....I do see how others are attempting to twist things and say that those asking for multi clutching are just grabbing and greedy and wanting their own prize dragons quicker and quite frankly I find that accusation appalling. Maybe some of us are just tired of the drama of the raffle and maybe some of us actually think that the more people who are happy the better.

Edited January 4, 2015 by Dubious

[Jazeki]

 

@Jazeki - I don't think anyone in this thread is using "Prize dragon" in that sense.

I know this thread refers to the shiny, non-HM prizes, but when the idea is being pushed that these aren't like CB holidays and that they are much more "rare and special and shouldn't behave like holidays do", it's important to consider that some HM winners did choose holidays and their babies can multi-clutch whether they want them to or not.

Edited January 4, 2015 by Jazeki

[Starscream]

It's a raffle. Raffles are usually limited.

 

If I enter a raffle and win a car. I do not expect other entrants to be asking me for a ride in it because I won and they didn't. It is just unheard of.

 

raffles are not meant to be everyone gets one, that is a problem of elementry school sports where 'everyone wins'. Its meant to give people a chance at a prize. We are fortunate the prizes breed and that people can also get a dragon of that breed. But every year I think it would be a good idea to not have the raffle, or allow the dragons to breed. Because people want to change the breeding rules to suit their purpose with full disregard of others. We are also fortunate that obtaining raffle tickets are not harder.

[CNR4806]

If anything, I think that getting prize dragons should be much, much harder than it already is.

... And make the trade market even more twisted than it already is? No thanks.

 

I currently can't find a reason to even look at the trade subforum. Almost everyone is so fixated on prizes nowadays. Should we go ahead and call this game Prize Dragon Cave? Because if we're heading down that lane it certainly is going to be one in all but name.

[CNR4806]

It's a raffle. Raffles are usually limited.

 

If I enter a raffle and win a car. I do not expect other entrants to be asking me for a ride in it because I won and they didn't. It is just unheard of.

 

raffles are not meant to be everyone gets one, that is a problem of elementry school sports where 'everyone wins'. Its meant to give people a chance at a prize. We are fortunate the prizes breed and that people can also get a dragon of that breed. But every year I think it would be a good idea to not have the raffle, or allow the dragons to breed. Because people want to change the breeding rules to suit their purpose with full disregard of others. We are also fortunate that obtaining raffle tickets are not harder.

Does your car clone itself to make more cars on a fairly regular basis? Because if it does not it's not a suitable comparison.

 

Stopping the raffle or making prizes unbreedable are also not viable options at this point when we're having the 5th annual raffle and the 6th time that breedable prizes are about to be distributed. Unless your intention is a nuclear riot all along, it's really not an option.

[Torkie10]

I wouldn't mind a BSA for multiclutch. Lineages are fun to make, though particularly difficult with Prize dragons. You almost need a CB Prize yourself to have the leverage to get offspring you need.

 

Iiii'm daydreaming of a Priiiiize dragon~

Just like the ones the Wiki shows~

Whose scaaaales glisten~

And colleeeeeectors listen~

To heeeaaaar

If egg was yes or noooo~

[natli]

I'm against the idea of multiclutches returning for all breeds. Pros: the high amount of eggs in AP - 4d incuhatchable babies. Cons: it would be a high amount of bred eggs so no ND fodder for me. AP hunters would pick up the same lineage time and time again. People who mass breed commons could effectively clog the AP. When the holiday season would come the eggs would start dying in the AP, unless TJ would intervene.

 

The Multiclutch BSA idea sounds very interesting. Pros: We do not have enough useful BSAs. Cons: if a mass breeder used it it could still clog the AP for hours. Still, this gets my support.

 

The multiclutch system mentioned in the first post, aimed at low gen prizes in general - now that's tricky. It depends on where you stand, I think. As a person who never won a prize and has no 2Gs, I would die of happiness if I caught a 2G on the AP. But if I would win the raffle this year, I would be vehemently against it, as I would have no control or knowledge where my babies would end up. But I'll try and think of some objective arguments. Pros: more 2Gs for 'the people'. Cons: making low gen prizes more common, which would make the game 'easier' - I believe that having almost impossible goals keeps some people going, while having things within reach, has an opposite effect.

[Melatte]

Almost everyone is so fixated on prizes nowadays.

I want you to re-read this particular sentence as is. Honestly, just think about what you are saying.

 

 

Everyone. Wants. Prizes.

 

Edit: Due to the fact that everyone misinterpreted this as "Everyone likes prize dragons." I thought I should explain that I was not, in fact, referring to the dragon.

 

 

Why? Because they're valuable, because getting them means something, because this is a game. Honestly, I am beginning to suspect that many of you don't venture far from Dragon Cave because you don't seem to get that having something hard to get is a good thing. Sites get completely destroyed when the owners go off making things easier. The people who worked hard complain, people expect the previously-valuable things to still be valuable even though they're worthless, and people eventually get everything they want and get bored. It is such a basic mistake and it would be horrible for it to happen here.

 

 

It's GOOD that there's something everyone wants that isn't easy to get. You go to any game and that's how things are going to be, that's how things are supposed to be. The best thing about Dragon Cave is that the things everyone wants more of stays consistent. It's survived for this long just fine, why effect the value now? Why even risk it?

 

My point is that these dragons are given out as prizes, so that is what they are. And prizes just aren't mean to be owned by everyone in mass amounts. That would be quite odd.

Edited January 4, 2015 by Ashikara

[kerrikins]

Again I completely disagree...a mere 'handful' of prize dragons are handed out every year, in comparison to the sheer number of folks playing Drag Cave. Consequently 'newbies' and the vast majority of folks take literally over a year to get a 'prize dragon'.

Newbies and the vast majority of folks can also literally take over a year to get a gold, or a silver, or a blusang, etc. etc. Should we bring back multiclutches just so satisfy the need that those users to have their dragons asap?

 

No seriously, what is so wrong about spreading the joy of the raffle quicker? Everyone participated and did the work to enter the raffle.

 

That's like saying that everyone who buys tickets to a lottery should get some of the money. Seriously, it's a raffle for a reason.

 

You're acting as though it's some strange, unheard of, bizarre thing for someone to want to control their offspring, when that happens *all* the time with pretty much every single dragon except holidays. If someone wants to catch 50 cb golds and hoard them and never, ever breed them, then they can! If someone wants to hoard all cb silvers, same thing! Holidays are the *only* ones who are the exception and again, they breed only once per year.

 

Maybe some of us are just tired of the drama of the raffle and maybe some of us actually think that the more people who are happy the better.

 

Except it won't actually make that many more people happy. You know why? Because the people who take 'so long' to be able to trade for a low gen prize are the same ones who won't be able to catch any of the prizes on the AP. You're just going to distribute the prizes amongst the fast clickers who are already able to trade for what they want by virtue of being fast clickers.

[Starscream]

I don't own a car.

 

But the point is. If they win, it is theirs to do with as they please. Nuclear riot may also ensue if they are forced into a multiclutch and all other breeds are not. I'd simply not breed, that would be my choice in the end. No prize winner HAS to breed, and this point is often ignored. Many want to be generous and gift, or trade - they do that. But to force prize winners to start becoming a factory for eggs is not right.

 

Respect for the winners is rare. People suddenly pming them with "gifts" as a method of trying to get their favour/guilt them into giving them an egg.

 

Again. Multiclutch should be a:

 

1. BSA

2. Toggled by scroll choice

3. All breeds / generation

4. left only to holiday dragons

5. removed all together including holidays (which would be very sad.)

 

 

[Torkie10]

Everyone. Wants. Prizes.

 

 

Why? Because they're valuable, because getting them means something, because this is a game.

I have to disagree. Sure, that's part of the appeal, but that's not the only reason. Prize dragons are very pretty, and it can be fun to do lineage projects with them.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Honestly, I am beginning to suspect that many of you don't venture far from Dragon Cave because you don't seem to get that having something hard to get is a good thing. Sites get completely destroyed when the owners go off making things easier.

Just quoting the most important bit.

 

You're right that games that are too easy die in the water. HOWEVER. The issue is, prize dragons aren't hard to get so much as they're... based on random luck and begging other users, for the most part. You either randomly win (which involves no real hard work, it's just random), or you're one of the people who has to rely on other people to get something. Neither of which seems like the ideal way to add a challenge to a collectibles game.

 

That being said, I don't think this suggestion is really a fix for that, either.

[Jazeki]

@Ashikara-Actually, I think that these would have been made unbreedable if they were just meant to be enjoyed by the select few that had won.

[cyradis4]

... And make the trade market even more twisted than it already is? No thanks.

 

I currently can't find a reason to even look at the trade subforum. Almost everyone is so fixated on prizes nowadays. Should we go ahead and call this game Prize Dragon Cave? Because if we're heading down that lane it certainly is going to be one in all but name.

From the end of December to about the end of April, that's exactly what this is, "Prize Dragon Cave". >.<

 

Look at the total number of Prize dragons in-cave, and their offspring lists, shows exactly WHY that is. Gold Epica, for instance, is one of the original gold tinsels. There are, I think, a total of 20 CB Gold Tinsel Prizes in the entire cave. She's produced 24 2nd gen Shinies, almost *half* of them this year. Her owner told me she's gotten better at managing the list and who she is willing to make Epica to, which is why the increase.

 

Now, spread that across 20 Gold Tinsels, some only a year old, and at least 2 of which have never once been bred. And.... You start to see why 2nd gens are the entire focus of most of the trading.

 

The only way to decrease the cave's fixation on Prizes is to get far, far, far more CB Prizes into circulation... Which will make about half of the Prize owners howl bloody murder. SOME of them already howl because Tinsels were released last year with Shimmers! And that despite the fact that I think there were just two breeding CB Gold Tinsels at that time. Yes, many are very generous. The two people I got my two 2nd gen Prizes from among them, and I can name a dozen more. And some Prize owners, to be frank, are extremely rude, arrogant, and feel that they are overly-special because they have said dragons. In short, the typical mixture of humans.

 

So, back on topic. I still don't support multi-clutching for Prizes. Or to be specific... I support multi-clutching for all dragons.

 

And I have zero sympathy for CB Prize owners who want to control every last one of their offspring. I just don't. They lucked out to get their dragons, pure and simple.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[Melatte]

Just quoting the most important bit.

 

You're right that games that are too easy die in the water. HOWEVER. The issue is, prize dragons aren't hard to get so much as they're... based on random luck and begging other users, for the most part. You either randomly win (which involves no real hard work, it's just random), or you're one of the people who has to rely on other people to get something. Neither of which seems like the ideal way to add a challenge to a collectibles game.

 

That being said, I don't think this suggestion is really a fix for that, either.

I don't know that I agree with you saying that they aren't hard to get. Unless you were referring strictly to the breed itself, but I was mainly referring to 2G's and 3G's being hard to get. It's true that a lot of people get them through luck and the generosity of others, but there's plenty of people who spend a great deal of time trading up to them. I think that's part of what makes them desirable. The value our peers place on things effects how we value the same things. Which is why this thread is in regard to low gen dragons, and not just the breed itself.

 

 

Also, I think there are very few suggestions that would fix the challenge factor in a collectibles game...

[cyradis4]

Oh and for those like me who prefer multi-clutching for every dragon, I made a new BSA suggestion:

https://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showtopic=165731

 

Cheers!

C4.

[Thuban]

I would far rather see BSAs that improve clutch size (TJ's suggestion) than force people who dont want multiclutches to have to deal with them, prize or not. Using purples to increase clutch size makes sense.

 

 

[CNR4806]

I want you to re-read this particular sentence as is. Honestly, just think about what you are saying.

 

 

Everyone. Wants. Prizes.

 

 

Why? Because they're valuable, because getting them means something, because this is a game. Honestly, I am beginning to suspect that many of you don't venture far from Dragon Cave because you don't seem to get that having something hard to get is a good thing. Sites get completely destroyed when the owners go off making things easier. The people who worked hard complain, people expect the previously-valuable things to still be valuable even though they're worthless, and people eventually get everything they want and get bored. It is such a basic mistake and it would be horrible for it to happen here.

 

 

It's GOOD that there's something everyone wants that isn't easy to get. You go to any game and that's how things are going to be, that's how things are supposed to be. The best thing about Dragon Cave is that the things everyone wants more of stays consistent. It's survived for this long just fine, why effect the value now? Why even risk it?

 

My point is that these dragons are given out as prizes, so that is what they are. And prizes just aren't mean to be owned by everyone in mass amounts. That would be quite odd.

Pardon me, but personally I couldn't care less about the prizes. Sure, I collect them if they come to me, but I've never made any real effort to grab them.

 

The viewpoint that I've been illustrating is that I just want the current emphasis on prizes in the trade market to die in a horrible fire.

 

 

Still, are you actually serious on the "challenge" bit on prizes?

 

The "challenge" comes from the fact that an extreme minority of the playerbase has access to a group of dragons that are deemed extremely valuable by the playerbase. It is all very arbitary and I view it as that portion of the playerbase having complete domination on the trade market rather than an actual challenge, like catching a CB metal from the cave.

 

It's about as much of a challenge as the son of an Arab Oil Tycoon telling you that getting rich is a challenge.

[Sir Barton]

I want you to re-read this particular sentence as is. Honestly, just think about what you are saying.

 

 

Everyone. Wants. Prizes.

 

 

Why? Because they're valuable, because getting them means something, because this is a game. Honestly, I am beginning to suspect that many of you don't venture far from Dragon Cave because you don't seem to get that having something hard to get is a good thing. Sites get completely destroyed when the owners go off making things easier. The people who worked hard complain, people expect the previously-valuable things to still be valuable even though they're worthless, and people eventually get everything they want and get bored. It is such a basic mistake and it would be horrible for it to happen here.

 

 

It's GOOD that there's something everyone wants that isn't easy to get. You go to any game and that's how things are going to be, that's how things are supposed to be. The best thing about Dragon Cave is that the things everyone wants more of stays consistent. It's survived for this long just fine, why effect the value now? Why even risk it?

 

My point is that these dragons are given out as prizes, so that is what they are. And prizes just aren't mean to be owned by everyone in mass amounts. That would be quite odd.

Just felt the need to point out that I have a sizable collection of prize dragons. Granted, most are fourth generation or higher, but people certainly can own them in mass amounts.

 

While I would love to have a couple of second gens for even gen lineage usage, I don't trade so that will NEVER happen. Do prize dragons make the game more interesting for me. Nope. If they multiclutched at least I would stand a chance at possibly having a lineage I could enjoy.

 

With my slow computer and spotty internet nabbing one off the AP would be far more challenging than my current situation since I don't even bother with them now.

 

Edit: And I like the idea of the purples being able to affect the clutch size. That would make that BSA way more useful.

Edited January 4, 2015 by Sir Barton

[Syphoneira]

I want you to re-read this particular sentence as is. Honestly, just think about what you are saying.

 

 

Everyone. Wants. Prizes.

 

 

Why? Because they're valuable, because getting them means something, because this is a game. Honestly, I am beginning to suspect that many of you don't venture far from Dragon Cave because you don't seem to get that having something hard to get is a good thing. Sites get completely destroyed when the owners go off making things easier. The people who worked hard complain, people expect the previously-valuable things to still be valuable even though they're worthless, and people eventually get everything they want and get bored. It is such a basic mistake and it would be horrible for it to happen here.

 

 

It's GOOD that there's something everyone wants that isn't easy to get. You go to any game and that's how things are going to be, that's how things are supposed to be. The best thing about Dragon Cave is that the things everyone wants more of stays consistent. It's survived for this long just fine, why effect the value now? Why even risk it?

 

My point is that these dragons are given out as prizes, so that is what they are. And prizes just aren't mean to be owned by everyone in mass amounts. That would be quite odd.

 

 

 

 

Lol, Because they're beautiful?

 

Actually, DC is a dragon collecting game on a family site.

 

Many long-term players don't have great connections/computers and we were typically lured in to 'save baby dragons from dying' and continued from there.

 

Some people have indeed come here for a challenge and find themselves frequently disappointed because the basic game isn't really built around that sort of thing.

 

It's a long-term, often very slow game, with close to a week spent raising each dragon (Incubate helps, but not enough, lol,) and week-long cool-downs for things like breeding.

 

There are a lot of children, disabled and older people here, including grandparents and people in their 70s, here in great part specifically *because* a lot of what goes on isn't fast or 'challenging'.

 

Many people come here to relax and get away from RL, so difficulty here as well as in RL isn't what a lot of people are looking for.

 

Making this place challenging and difficult in the manner you've been describing isn't going to work for a lot of the player-base.

 

Those of us who aren't children don't mindlessly value whatever our peers do, but if we want to make decent gifts and trades, we have to obtain the ability to do so, which includes dragons that are generally valued.

 

And we do like pretty dragons, and we generally do, like everyone else, typically want new dragons NAOW, lol.

 

If we wanted to not be able to get creatures, we'd play Pokemon or whatever.

 

Every good business fills a niche, and DC has a fairly wide-ranging appeal, but the great bulk of long-term players probably would rather be able to get the dragons they want, than not, and a lot of us certainly like to.

[kerrikins]

And I have zero sympathy for CB Prize owners who want to control every last one of their offspring. I just don't. They lucked out to get their dragons, pure and simple.

I don't understand this. Everyone had the same chance to win the raffle that the winners did, it's not as though they had an unfair advantage. I don't see how that justifies turning their dragons into egg factories for the rest of DC... It's supposed to be something for the winner to enjoy, not something where they feel an obligation to churn out eggs as fast as they can to satiate the people who didn't win.

 

I'm also still stuck on the fact that it's going to be the fast clickers who get the eggs that go to the AP, which wouldn't even help the people who most on here are probably thinking about.

Edited January 4, 2015 by kerrikins

[Prince_Xanthius]

The viewpoint that I've been illustrating is that I just want the current emphasis on prizes in the trade market to die in a horrible fire.

This is why I support anything that makes low gen prizes more common. I don't want low gen prizes particularly (well except for wanting to checker my 2G Cavern-Lurker-from-Tinsel AP find but I digress), I just want the trading market to become something more than 'I want Prizes + a couple of other things, maybe, if the moon is right'

 

I also take issue (as I previously stated) with the idea that the prize owners, who won RANDOMLY and not through hard work, are entitled to the effective money printing that CBs offer them. I don't think TJ would have meant that; I don't think he foresaw it. Winning the Lotto is one thing - it runs out eventually. Winning the royal mint is quite another.

 

Edit: Also, I agree with Syphneira - I play this game a lot more than the various other pet raising sites BECAUSE it is so slow and non-challenging. Ignoring the site for months or years at a time is not particularly detrimental. You haven't missed out on exclusives/money gaining opportunities, the economy does not inflate (beyond the fact prizes exist - and I hope we don't get a new prize because that's going to screw it up again). There is no need to grind, no need to check everyday or miss out. It's easy. It's relaxing. Trying to change that will drive people away.

Edited January 4, 2015 by Prince_Xanthius

[Tawanda001]

They don't have to turn them into egg factories to fulfill lists THEY have made. They can simply not breed them, or breed a few to gift, or breed them all to the AP.

But often it's the prize winners themselves that try to turn them into egg factories in order to 'buy' the things they couldn't get before.

Obviously that doesn't pertain to all prize winners, but I think that those prize winners share equally in the blame for the pressure. You can't put it all on the shameless grubby masses with their hands held out.

 

BTW I sorta think that complaining that DC isn't challenging enough is rather like watching a golf tournament and complaining that there's not enough action.

Edited January 4, 2015 by Tawanda001

[Fiona]

From various things winners have posted, it's not them trying to get all kinds of things that end up creating endless lists, it's pressure from other users PMing them asking about getting on their lists that results in the endless lists and pressure to keep breeding more shiny eggs. This is especially true of people newer to DC. They want to make everyone happy. You can't lay that on the prize winners. The blame lies squarely on the shoulders of all the users PMing them for a spot on their lists.