ANSWERED:Multi clutch for Prize dragons?

[Syphoneira]

I daresay that Prize winners encounter a great deal more in the way of rude requests than do the rest of us, however, it's seriously better not to let previous experiences blind us to the current realities with which we deal.

 

I've been seeing some references suggesting that some feel as though all other people are operating out of jealousy and spite, which would rarely be the case in actuality, and the fact that anyone appears to be misinterpreting Jazeki's posts as in any way hostile would suggest that the wrong-coloured spectacles are on, and the prescription is distorting the view considerably, lol.

 

 

If we look at this logically - a very small percentage of a very large group is at one point the only source at ALL for beautiful new dragons everyone is dying to have progeny from, and eventually, the only source of 2nd gens from which people can start lineages.

 

Yes, you're going to be inundated with requests, not because people are evil and want to harass you guys, but because you are the only sources of these particular dragons in a group of fanatic collectors - and to top it all off, your dragons often don't breed well, so those owners running lists are going to be booked forever, and tons of people will be looking to get on one, so they'll try multiple people.

 

People (mostly, at any rate - no-one I've seen posting here, anyway) aren't demanding you guys supply them with dragons, they just want low-gen Prize dragons and you guys happen to be CB owners and they're hoping you'll trade.

 

If you take it personally as a sort of concerted assault, (even though it may be hard not to,) you'll have a break-down.

 

Some people who apparently don't even have any CB Prizes are getting upset about this.

 

But if the CB Prizes had produced more and multi-clutches in the first place, some of that pressure would never have occurred and if it were to start now, some of it would be alleviated.

 

And unless I missed something, (happens a lot, lol,) I don't think anyone's saying that anyone has to breed...???

 

 

I personally would like my low-gens to produce more and to multi-clutch.

 

I don't think the odd 3d or 4th gen theoretically produced by my little stubborns in any prospective multi-clutching and autoed to to the AP would be going to make any over-all difference to the Cave, but it might brighten someone's day, and would make me smile thinking of it.

 

And if this occurred to all of the first few Prize gens, it would ease things a bit, for everyone.

 

I don't expect everyone to feel the same way, but I don't see much point in getting upset about these possibilities either way.

 

I think this would be a good thing, other's don't.

 

But a more productive discussion could be had if people would attempt to see what people are actually saying, rather than assuming that any different viewpoint to their own is necessarily adversarial.

 

We're all part of the same community, after all.

 

Why don't we try working toward solutions in a calm and reasoned fashion, and maybe get somewhere?

[angelicdragonpuppy]

I'd actually like a return in multiclutch for everything because I MISS multiclutches... picking out the prettiest codes and having same time siblings was fun. I have a pair of three magi siblings on my scroll who were all bred at the same time by someone and I'm happy they all ended up together. I like catching holiday siblings, too. Plus passing on more pretties in general is nice. ;o;

 

If people are going to get their panties all in a twist about it, though, maybe it could be some type of on / off account setting (although uhhh, I'm not sure what the logic behind it would be...). I really don't want it to be a BSA because it'd take ages to apply to every dragon. I already invest a good chunk of time breeding nice things to the AP / gifting threads to begin with, I'm not going to double that time by having to painfully one-by-one use a BSA. I'd love to share even more eggs, but not if it's going to take an age and a half to do so.

 

 

 

 

[cyradis4]

I am OK with paying taxes and having a government choose to spend it on health services and roads and the like. (I'm not personally OK if they spend it on weapons - but we all have our tax preferences !)

My view on the whole "spending on weapons" is, if you spend it now on good weapons, then no one will attack you, so you won't have to *use* those weapons. Its when you have none, can't defend yourself, and make yourself a target that you really need those weapons... that you don't have, because you were peaceful even when your neighbors weren't.

 

Just like the above analogy, you would wish that people would leave winners alone unless they said they wanted to be bothered. And just like the above, it won't happen. So yes, its human nature, and the winners must be prepared to defend themselves. Its a horrible, sad truth, but then... its a horrible sad world where weapons *are* needed. Switzerland has stayed neutral through both world wars and back into history.... by making sure that the entire population could *fight* and it wasn't worth the cost to bother them.

 

So saying "the winners shouldn't be bothered" is like saying "people shouldn't go to war". Both are very nice sentiments... and each about as likely as the other to actually happen. Which is to day.... Not a snowflake's chance in hell.

 

So! Instead of railing against unchangeable human nature, how about we do something constructive... like build the defenses that are needed?

 

Now, how multi-clutches worked in the past was, there'd be multiple commons produced for each uncommon, and while once or twice there were two rares, it was..... vanishingly rare. Usually, you'd get 1 to 4 commons. Each extra common produced was like an extra week of fail-breeding.

 

So, a few things.

1. People are being silly about the whole "2nd gen Prizes in the AP", because... it won't happen.

Oh, maybe once in a blue moon when a Prize is bred to a Prize or rare, you might get that mythical second 2nd gen. In practice? Not going to happen, so supporting this for 2nd gens in the AP is... silly, because those 2nd gens won't happen.

 

2. The extra eggs would be commons, and while many prize owners do trade those 2nd gens, a lot give them away for free. Personally, getting worked up over a couple of kin is weird. But! I'm not a prize owner.

 

3. Those extra 2nd gen commons are just like an extra week or three of fail breeding: it speeds things up.

You'll have had to fail-breed those eggs anyway because of the ratios, this just speeds the process up by 2 to 4 times, letting you get more Shiny prizes, faster. But still unlikely to be more Shinies *in the same breeding*.

 

Ok, having said all that, and if this happened for low gen Prizes I wouldn't be upset in the least. However.... I would rather a BSA of some type that would let the dragon it was used on multi-clutch. I've got several common x common pairings, and being able to produce 3 fails and maybe 1 egg that I actually want would be nice. Or being able to pruduce 4 fails each week (which would help the ratios, getting me closer to the common I want!) would really be nice.

 

tl;dr:

- 2nd gen prizes in the AP won't happen thanks to the ratios, so don't support this because of that. Oh, maybe in a Prize x Prize pairing it'd happen, but otherwise? For get about it.

- 2nd gen Prize Kin, on the other hand, will hit the AP in 2 to 3 times as many numbers. This means, the Prize Owner can breed their next shiny faster, because those kin are aiding the ratios

- I support general multi-clutching or multi-clutching via a BSA. I think it would be better for all if it weren't limited to just Prizes.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[Dubious]

I seriously wonder how anyone having such incredible luck themselves as to win a CB Prize could grudge a far lower level of similar luck to someone else, or regard some lesser level of potential luck for others as 'unfair'.

 

Why can't they be happy for others, in the same way that most of us are happy for those fortunate enough to win CB Prizes?

I completely agree with this.

 

Raffle prizes are already controversial enough as people are not happy with not being able to 'collect a CB of every dragon on the site' on a collecting site. In order to add any prize dragon to their collection they have to either wait for pretty much a year for the 'prices' to go down, or layout a 'fortune' in dragon eggs in order to get a prize dragon's offspring.

 

I think multi clutches are a VERY good idea as they would spread the prize dragons around faster. Giving those who cannot afford, or are not in good or friends with a CB prize owners a chance to actually get a prize dragon offspring and therefore level the playing field a bit more for everyone.

 

Every year gets more and more sickening watching people 'suck up' to prize dragon owners, a seeming necessity in order to complete their own collections. Watching winners trying to deal with the barrage of requests and spam and admitting to being stressed because of it. Sorry, but I have been here since the very first 'raffle' 'art' thing and I don't think it has improved the site, on the contrary. Quite frankly I wouldn't be at all sad to see the raffles done away with altogether. At the very least multi clutches would get the 'exclusive' dragon distributed to folks much faster. Folks who are no less 'deserving' then the lucky folks who won the raffle.

Edited January 4, 2015 by Dubious

[Starscream]

So saying "the winners shouldn't be bothered" is like saying "people shouldn't go to war". Both are very nice sentiments... and each about as likely as the other to actually happen. Which is to day.... Not a snowflake's chance in hell.

 

Perhaps that is true. But their response, No, if it is given, should be respected and that should be the end of the discussion. To continue on after No, has been given, through a bigger offer, begging, etc. Then becomes trading harassment, which has happened to the prize winner I am thinking of. It also violates a important rule here and that is respect of other users.

 

For the most part, I feel my notices regarding my position in trades and requests is being respected. There are some that read it and come back later and say "I read it but...." my answer will be No.

 

I would be okay with a BSA triggered Multi-clutch, or a multi-clutch toggle switch on the scroll. Either way, that allows the breeder control of if they wish it to happen or not. To me that would be a suitable compromise. But I am not for forcing it upon a specific breed, outside of the traditional holidays.

[kerrikins]

The more I think about this, the more it bothers me. Note: I am not a prize owner.

 

I just don't see how it's fair for the rest of DC to essentially force certain players to be held to different rules simply because they have something that is highly desireable. Unless we bring back multiclutch for everyone - which we know isn't going to happen - then that's literally the only reason. So we force a small segment of the population to deal with a different way of breeding than everyone else, and why? Because they *won* something.

 

Some prize winners want *one* special lineage that they keep for themselves, even if they trade and share with others. Some prize winners want to do exclusive raffles. This would strip all that choice away from them.

 

So my vote is no, to be honest. I just don't think it's right. I don't think that the desires - not needs, but desires - of DC should trump the right of prize owners to do what they want with what they won. It's like saying that lottery winners should have ten dollars go to other people for every one dollar they spend.

Edited January 4, 2015 by kerrikins

[Dubious]

I just don't see how it's fair for the rest of DC to essentially force certain players to be held to different rules simply because they have something that is highly desireable.

 

I really don't see how this can affect prize winners or how this can be unfair to them. They have their CB prize, that is what they won, is it not?

 

Or perhaps TJ needs to include a caveat that says that CB prize winners also win the right to control every single non CB prize dragon too in that line. They can already control ONE egg offspring as we all can for all our dragons. Multi clutching will not alter that.

Edited January 4, 2015 by Dubious

[Guillotine]

I think that introducing a low chance of multiclutching for all dragon breeds would be good if it's the only way to get Prize multiclutches. I strongly doubt it'd drastically affect trade value (the pool of CBs is absolutely TINY compared to almost every other breed outside of Hollies or breed-onlies), and it's not like the multiclutches are going to magically produce all of the rarer breed (at least if I understand how it used to be). Having more commons means rares would breed better too, so it might even take pressure off CB prize owners.

 

Plus, circumstances are different now; the AP doesn't block the cave anymore, and the eggs there are relatively low-time nowadays, so more messies in the AP could very well not be as much of an issue.

 

I admit that I'm also saying this because certain common checkers are a PITA to get right now and I like getting siblings from the AP, though. :>

[angelicdragonpuppy]

I think Cyradis raises a very good point that this is likely to produce prizekins for the AP, but not so many actual prizes. Since it's thus not really doing what was intended, general multiclutch makes more sense. ;o;

[Jazeki]

In your terms then, you are saying, "you're asking for it if you don't breed" or "you deserve to get hassled" if you don't breed. Who the eggs should be their right and their right alone.

 

Edit: in regards to Jazeki.

 

 

Edit: The winners should not be badgered at all unless they clearly state they are open to requests. I am with MM in that I would not give an egg to anyone who asks me without my express permission to ask me.

I was not saying that I felt that way. I was indicating that I understood the logic by which people apparently decided that prize owners were undeserving.

[kerrikins]

I really don't see how this can affect prize winners or how this can be unfair to them. They have their CB prize, that is what they won, is it not?

 

Or perhaps TJ needs to include a caveat that says that CB prize winners also win the right to control every single non CB prize dragon too in that line. They can already control ONE egg offspring as we all can for all our dragons. Multi clutching will not alter that.

You seem to have completely ignored the examples that I provided. I know some prize owners who gift and trade their eggs generously, but have *one* breeding partner that they keep for themselves, whose offspring they want entirely on their scroll. Others want all second gens for themselves and gift the other generations. Others do exclusive raffles.

 

What is being suggested here strips away the right to do any of that. The only breeds that now multiclutch are holidays, and that is because of the spirit of the season and because they only breed once a year and there are many newbies who need to get the breeds they've never caught before. Especially important now that there are enough that they can't all be collected in one year...

 

You may think that it's just fine, but I don't. I don't think it's fair to force dynamics on their eggs that nobody else in the site has to deal with, simply because DC members are particularly eager to get their hands on prize eggs. Again - as a non-prize owner - I think it's absolutely ridiculous to force this sort of dynamic on people simply so others can get offspring faster.

Edited January 4, 2015 by kerrikins

[lightningsky]

That's hilarious. Why is that funny? Because I already know what's coming when TJ announces the winners, and it won't be 'happiness' for them, not by a long shot, not around here and certainly not by most from what I've been witness to. lmao

Then why did they enter the raffle at all? Just saying. I'm pretty sure a lot of us would be happy if we got that Prize, more-so than those who dread the drama over it...

 

I support Multi-clutches only for all dragons, because I personally miss them...Nothing more exciting to see than your Gold dragon produce not one but maybe three Gold eggs in a 4 egg clutch (Ohh, the good old times)

 

Now for Prizes, I don't think Multiclutching would help the elusive 2Gs spread, because they breed so poor now anyways. If anything I see it helping spread the Prize-fails at best...

[kerrikins]

Then why did they enter the raffle at all? Just saying. I'm pretty sure a lot of us would be happy if we got that Prize, more-so than those who dread the drama over it...

A lot of people want that special unique dragon, but don't want the hundreds of PMS, the entitled attitude that some (not all, but some) users on the site have, the harassment, the expectations, the high trading demand, etc. Or they want to be able to trade for whatever they want, but don't want to deal with all of the above, etc.

 

I think it important to note that there are some prize owners who have noted that they felt this way before, too - until they won themselves, and then found it all overwhelming and a bit difficult to deal with.

[CNR4806]

The biggest problem I see is that you're trying to place an arbitary value on the low gen/CB prizes over the high-gen, "less desirable" ones.

 

As far as the cave is concerned, a prize is a prize, value of low gen vs high gen is user-determined and should not slip into the cave mechanics.

 

If this is a suggestion to enable multiclutching for all prizes regardless of lineage to make the breeds more accessible on a whole, then yes I'll support it, but right now this is just a bunch of people trying to make the low gen prizes, which they find to be desirable, more accessible to them.

[Syphoneira]

I think Cyradis raises a very good point that this is likely to produce prizekins for the AP, but not so many actual prizes. Since it's thus not really doing what was intended, general multiclutch makes more sense. ;o;

 

 

 

Keep forgetting that not everyone was around for those - heck, you'd get 3 or 4 commons in a Gold/Silver clutch, if you bred with a Pink or other high-producing common - VERY rarely more than one shiny.

 

Assuming that the ratios were increased by a percentage with the theoretical graduated multi-clutching for the top few gens of Prizes, (yeah, probably not going to happen, but I still think it would help all concerned,) there probably might be...dunno... one or two Prizes a year? autoed per regularly bred dragon, and lots of prizekin.

 

But obviously it would also move Prize lists a lot faster, as Cyradis also mentioned, although this doesn't seem to be much of a concern.

 

 

[Jazeki]

I think we're also forgetting that the idea is for all prizes through 3rd gen to produce multi-clutch offspring. This does not just affect owners of CB prizes.

 

 

[WraithZephyr]

I would be okay with a BSA triggered Multi-clutch, or a multi-clutch toggle switch on the scroll. Either way, that allows the breeder control of if they wish it to happen or not. To me that would be a suitable compromise. But I am not for forcing it upon a specific breed, outside of the traditional holidays.

I cannot remember the thread, but I think I remember TJ saying something the to effect that if multi-clutch were to ever be brought back, it would be across the board for all dragons. And the most logical way to do it would be to alter the Purple dragon's Fertility BSA so that instead of just upping your chance for getting any egg you would be now be upping your chance for getting a multi-clutch from the influenced pair. This manner should cover different people's desire or lack of desire of having their dragon produce more than one egg or not. If you like it - use it. If you don't like - don't use it.

 

I never use the Purple's BSA because far as I have determined, my odds of getting an egg from a specific breeding is actually better when I do not use the BSA. Just never seemed right to have to go through the extra effort of influencing pairs and winding up with fewer successful breedings as a result. Now if the BSA was altered to give you the chance for a multi-clutch... then i would start using the BSA.

[kerrikins]

I think we're also forgetting that the idea is for all prizes through 3rd gen to produce multi-clutch offspring. This does not just affect owners of CB prizes.

To be honest, this bothers me even more, because it makes it clear that it's not just about 'spreading the sprite'. It's about distributing the generations that the community of DC have assigned a value to. If it was just about getting as many prizes out there as possible, we wouldn't be stopping it at the fourth generation.

 

I cannot remember the thread, but I think I remember TJ saying something the to effect that if multi-clutch were to ever be brought back, it would be across the board for all dragons. And the most logical way to do it would be to alter the Purple dragon's Fertility BSA so that instead of just upping your chance for getting any egg you would be now be upping your chance for getting a multi-clutch from the influenced pair. This manner should cover different people's desire or lack of desire of having their dragon produce more than one egg or not.  If you like it - use it. If you don't like - don't use it.

 

I wouldn't actually mind this idea, however - because it puts the element of choice back in. If people want to *choose* the chance of multiclutching, all the more power to them. I just don't want it to be arbitrary.

Edited January 4, 2015 by kerrikins

[Jazeki]

To be honest, this bothers me even more, because it makes it clear that it's not just about 'spreading the sprite'. It's about distributing the generations that the community of DC have assigned a value to. If it was just about getting as many prizes out there as possible, we wouldn't be stopping it at the fourth generation.

 

 

 

I was pointing it out because the emphasis of the thread seems to be on how CB prize owners may or not feel or be affected by the production of more than one egg. I couldn't care less if every prize in existence had the possibility to produce several offspring, but the focus of the suggestion is on low gen prizes.

[Dubious]

You seem to have completely ignored the examples that I provided. I know some prize owners who gift and trade their eggs generously, but have *one* breeding partner that they keep for themselves, whose offspring they want entirely on their scroll. Others want all second gens for themselves and gift the other generations. Others do exclusive raffles.

 

Unfortunately you seem to have missed my point....they won a CB prize dragon....beyond that is the rights extended to any dragon owner.

 

Which as has been pointed out we all are subject to multi clutch in holidays regardless of our wishes regarding the offspring of our dragons and that includes...CB Holly owners. I see no reason why CB prize dragon owners should be excluded from this when CB Holly owners are not and the rest of us are not. CB Holly owners have no say where their multi clutch eggs go....

 

ALSO....The non multiclutch rule extends to all common dragons and those obtainable throughout the year in the Cave and I would point out here in particular....dragons obtainable in the Cave. Prize dragons are NOT obtainable in the Cave and therefore I submit...should not fall under the non multi clutch rule but rather the multi clutch rule that extends to limited edition dragons...aka holiday dragons.

Edited January 4, 2015 by Dubious

[Tawanda001]

So, a few things.

1. People are being silly about the whole "2nd gen Prizes in the AP", because... it won't happen.

Oh, maybe once in a blue moon when a Prize is bred to a Prize or rare, you might get that mythical second 2nd gen. In practice? Not going to happen, so supporting this for 2nd gens in the AP is... silly, because those 2nd gens won't happen.

Admittedly I'm not up on the whole ratio thing, but TJ has stated that prize offspring are not rare, in fact are pretty widespread. So even though the mates may be even more common dragons I would think the chances of a spare shiny here and there would be slightly higher than a snowballs chance....

[kerrikins]

Unfortunately you seem to have missed my point....they won a CB prize dragon....beyond that is the rights extended to any dragon owner.

 

Which as has been pointed out we all are subject to multi clutch in holidays regardless of our wishes regarding the offspring of our dragons and that includes...CB Holly owners. I see no reason why CB prize dragon owners should be excluded from this when CB Holly owners are not and the rest of us are not.

 

ALSO....The non multiclutch rule extends to all common dragons and those obtainable throughout the year and I would point out here in particular....dragons obtainable in the Cave. Prize dragons are NOT obtainable in the Cave and therefore I submit...should not fall under the non multi clutch rule but rather the multi clutch rule that extends to limited eition dragons...aka holiday dragons..

Holidays are limited to breeding once per year and are also distributed in the spirit of the season. For me the multiclutch with holidays has always made sense because there are so many newbies who need to get those dragons every year, and there are enough breeds now that a newbie may need multiple years to collect all the breeds. These reasons make sense to me. Christmas is the season of giving, Halloween is the season of greed, as we might put it. Valentine's Day is the season of love, you might say.

 

Prize dragons do not breed only once per year, and are not distributed in the spirit of the season. The reasons that apply to holiday dragons do not apply to prize dragons. It's not Christmas. It's not Halloween.

 

So it really doesn't make sense to arbitrarily say 'well, these dragons should behave differently from EVERY other dragon on the site' for reasons that basically amount to 'well, we want eggs from those dragons' from the rest of DC. I honestly think that this amounts to some people wanting their low-gen prizes as fast as possible and wanting to put arbitrary changes on prize owners just to get them.

Edited January 4, 2015 by kerrikins

[Jazeki]

 

Prize dragons do not breed only once per year, and are not distributed in the spirit of the season. The reasons that apply to holiday dragons do not apply to prize dragons. It's not Christmas.

 

Actually, if someone chooses a CB Christmas dragon as an honorable mention, it's a prize--not a top-tier prize, but a prize. The HM holidays floating about weren't distributed in the spirit of the season, either.

[purplehaze]

Admittedly I'm not up on the whole ratio thing, but TJ has stated that prize offspring are not rare, in fact are pretty widespread. So even though the mates may be even more common dragons I would think the chances of a spare shiny here and there would be slightly higher than a snowballs chance....

I think you are right. I know that my Prize dragons, whatever their generation, breed much better than my Golds and Silvers. I don't believe they are truly rare, or at least don't breed like rares. The only thing that makes them rare is the extremely low number of CBs. I would say the chance of getting more than one shiny in a clutch is much higher for them than it would be for other rares.

 

@Jazeki - I don't think anyone in this thread is using "Prize dragon" in that sense.

Edited January 4, 2015 by purplehaze

[cyradis4]

Admittedly I'm not up on the whole ratio thing, but TJ has stated that prize offspring are not rare, in fact are pretty widespread. So even though the mates may be even more common dragons I would think the chances of a spare shiny here and there would be slightly higher than a snowballs chance....

Prizes are like Blacks were a few years ago: Bred so much that they were pushed into being near-impossible to get (I saw some CB Blacks trading for CB Golds back then!). Blacks went from blockers (I remember that too) to extreme rares to everything-bred-alts-for-months to a common-ish dragon, now. Same thing happened with Stripes, Winters, and Springs not long ago. I remember breeding 4 Winter x Winter pairs every single week, the entire Spring season, and I got.... 1 Spring egg, the *entire* season. Same thing happened with Blusangs, they've been so popular over the years that they went nearly-extinct in the cave for over a year after their release, but are making a slight comeback.

 

Prizes may be classes as "commons", but like those other breeds, they've been waaaay over-bred, so that they breed like uncommons.

 

The difference is... The ratios on those other breeds, and their popularity, shifted, so the pressure was taken off of them and they recovered. All three are down to somewhere between common / uncommon, breeding wise. Prizes, however, are constantly bred by a huge segment of the population (just like Golds and Silvers), so the pressure has never and will never be taken off of them.

 

tl;dr

Prizes may be, ratio wise, "commons", but they are extremely heavily over-bred to the point where they breed like uncommons. That over-breeding is very unlikely to change, so Prizes will stay breeding like uncommons.

 

Cheers!

C4.