ANSWERED:Multi clutch for Prize dragons?

[JavaTigress]

And I get that money back at the end of the year.  I certainly wouldn't be getting auto abandoned prize eggs back would I?

 

The prize belongs to the winner.  Prize eggs belong to the winner.  Prize winners alone decide what happens to the eggs and imo, that's how it should stay.

True, or at least some of it.

 

And no, you might not, BUT if you hunted no reason you might not catch someone ELSE's autoed eggie

 

That said, like with taxes, it is your right to be opposed to it.

Edited January 4, 2015 by Silverswift

[_Sin_]

The prize belongs to the winner.  Prize eggs belong to the winner.  Prize winners alone decide what happens to the eggs and imo, that's how it should stay.

I'm a bit confused by your stance. Extending it, Holiday dragons belong to their owners but they still don't control all the off-springs. What's so wrong with that?

[MedievalMystic]

Holiday dragons are a different ball game. Everyone has holiday dragons and now, lot's of them. Prize dragons are unique and special, a lot more rare than Holiday dragons, and meant to be that way, and imo, should stay that way. Control of Prize dragons needs to stay in the hands of the winners, imo. They alone should be able to decide where eggs go. Anything else, to me, is totally unacceptable.

[Jazeki]

Holiday dragons are a different ball game. Everyone has holiday dragons and now, lot's of them. Prize dragons are unique and special, a lot more rare than Holiday dragons, and meant to be that way, and imo, should stay that way. Control of Prize dragons needs to stay in the hands of the winners, imo. They alone should be able to decide where eggs go. Anything else, to me, is totally unacceptable.

I don't know. Holidays are unique and special in that you can initially only have two of each new breed a year (save for Halloween breeds) and they all only breed once a year. If you miss out on a holiday, you can only get it 365 days later. Sure, CB prizes are unique in that there is only a small amount of them in cave. But they can breed all the time and TJ noted that prizes apparently far outnumber all of the other "rare" breeds in cave. So no, I don't think that prizes are meant to be some special, rare unobtainable thing as the prize pool continues to increase every year.

 

As for the suggestion, I wouldn't mind occasional multi-clutches where the rest go the AP. The winner still has control over one of the eggs.

[Draco Knight]

I really can't support this. It's forcing players that have a special dragon to have an extra game mechanics to forcably spread the offspring of that dragon. That's just awful. Holidays multi clutch, but EVERYONE'S Holiday does that, not just people with CB's or with other desirable lineages. It's a mechanic that everyone has to deal with.

 

I would possibly be in favor of multi clutching in general returning, but not selectively imposed on certain dragons just because they are very desired.

[MedievalMystic]

TJ noted that prizes apparently far outnumber all of the other "rare" breeds in cave. 

 

 

Well, there you have it. In that case, there's another reason multi clutches of Prize dragons aren't necessary and shouldn't be implemented.

 

 

The winner still has control over one of the eggs.

 

The prize winner should, imo, have full control over all of what's theirs.

 

 

It's forcing players that have a special dragon to have an extra game mechanics to forcably spread the offspring of that dragon. That's just awful.

 

Indeed.

Edited January 4, 2015 by MedievalMystic

[Pestilence420]

Holiday dragons are a different ball game. Everyone has holiday dragons and now, lot's of them. Prize dragons are unique and special, a lot more rare than Holiday dragons, and meant to be that way, and imo, should stay that way. Control of Prize dragons needs to stay in the hands of the winners, imo. They alone should be able to decide where eggs go. Anything else, to me, is totally unacceptable.

So what do you say to the people who have holiday alts? They can't control every egg that they breed and I think alts are WAY more rarer then CB prizes just saying...

[Draco Knight]

So what do you say to the people who have holiday alts? They can't control every egg that they breed and I think alts are WAY more rarer then CB prizes just saying...

They don't multi clutch because they're alts, they do that because they are Holidays. It's something that happens to all Holidays. They only have one egg per successful breeding any time outside of holiday breeding times.

[MedievalMystic]

Do alts breed other alts? Or do they breed normal colored sprites? Having an alt in a lineage is one thing...having them breed other alts is another. If my very special and rare alt bred other rare colored alts, bet I'd want control over every single one of them.

[Tawanda001]

ON the other hand, I DO sort of see why someone who traded big for a 2G would NOT necessarily like to hear about someone else 's good luck in finding one free on the AP.

I have to wonder if people would be willing to trade so big if there were multiclutches though. If you knew there was a chance, no matter how slim, of grabbing a 2g or 3g from the AP would you be quite as willing to offer multiple rares to have one bred for you, especially if rares are hard for you to come by?

[Stromboli]

Yeah, I'm not a fan of something like this... If it were me, I'd want to know where my dragon's eggs are going.

[Draco Knight]

I'm not against this because I believe players are inherently entitled to complete control over their offspring outside of Holiday times(CB prizes do send out multiple 2G holiday babies to the AP). I was around when we had general multi clutching, so I'm familar with not having complete control over babies.

 

I'm against imposing special rules for a select few dragons just because they are highly desirable. Holidays do it because those times are about sharing and giving to others. What reason is there for Prizes multi clutching besides, "You have it, others want it."

 

Okay, maybe evening the trading field. Again, it's not cool to force a few players to submit to extra rules for the 'good' of trading.

 

I do want low gen prize offspring to be less prevelent in trades. It seems that most trades up have to do with them in some way, which is discouraging, but I really would hate this to be the answer.

[Tawanda001]

But aren't prize dragons the ultimate holiday dragon, so to speak. They are the result of the Holiday raffle after all.

[Starscream]

And I get that money back at the end of the year. I certainly wouldn't be getting auto abandoned prize eggs back would I?

 

The prize belongs to the winner. Prize eggs belong to the winner. Prize winners alone decide what happens to the eggs and imo, that's how it should stay.

For once, I agree with you. Particularly in a previous post where you stated you'd not breed it if it multi-clutched. I'd do the same.

 

I know when we had multi-clutch I did attempt to regain my ditched eggs. Because I did not want them off my scroll. I think for the most part I was successful. But now, seeing how i have a breeding apathy, I probably would just resume catching CB's or interesting things to bite in the AP and not bother breeding.

 

As for holidays. I only breed dragons I don't mind sharing out. I have a couple whom I do not breed during holidays because of some history surrounding that particular dragon and the offspring of the pairs mean something to me and me alone.

 

to the general public:

The raffle is as fair as they come. More so than the original art contest, because some people are just not artistically inclined. In the raffle you get your tickets, and they were incredibly easy to get, each day. So 150 people may get a dragon some may win again. We cannot deny them this because they happen to have luck on their side. There is nothing remotely unfair about the raffle.

 

The winners are not obliged in anyway or manner to breed for the rest of the user base. They can, if they want, just breed for themselves, their friends or nobody at all. And the winners have every right to their privacy, their right to say no. Prizes is supposed to be a happy thing for the winner, but I get a strong impression from a few it has been nothing more than a burden.

 

So why take the right of whom the prize egg goes to from the winner? Because of, what I would consider, selfishness on behalf of the dc user base who wants an easy out to getting second gens or better?

 

What I am seeing as unfair is how the general population treats the prize winners as breeding machines, how they demand stuff with little to no respect of the prize owner and the dragon's peculiar nature. Hence the trading harassment post.

 

So, in a final note. No. I say absolute no to having prize dragons multi-clutch outside of them being bred to a holiday dragon in that dragon's season. My stance, will not change in this.

 

 

 

[Amazon_warrior]

They don't multi clutch because they're alts, they do that because they are Holidays. It's something that happens to all Holidays. They only have one egg per successful breeding any time outside of holiday breeding times.

This. During their Holiday they're subject to precisely the same mechanic as every other Holiday in its season. Likewise, out of season they only breed single eggs; again, just like every other Holiday (and normal dragon). I don't see demands for spriter alts to multi-clutch out of their Holiday season (because people wouldn't dare demand that even though 2G commons from spriter alts are highly desired), but it's effectively the same as what people are demanding here for Prizes.

Edited January 4, 2015 by Amazon_warrior

[Jazeki]

I am not seeing people demand anything in this thread. They are simply either speaking in favor of or against the suggestion. Also, as per the original multi-clutch mechanic, breeding can still result in only one egg as opposed to four. If this suggestion is implemented, good. If it isn't, that's fine too and prize winners still have the option to breed or not breed their eggs regardless of what happens. There may be an impression that prize winners will be expected to pop out eggs if this is implemented, but no one is demanding that they breed for the benefit of others.

[Syphoneira]

I don't like the idea of multiclutches happening when you don't want them. What if, after months and months and months, you finally trade 4 CB golds to someone for a 2nd gen shimmer, only to hear someone else excitedly yapping about getting a 2nd gen shimmer from the AP without paying anything at all? That doesn't seem fair to you.

 

If multiclutches for prizes are enabled, there should be a way to disable multiclutches. Or, like said, a BSA that gives a CHANCE of multiclutches.

 

Or else.... if you have space on your scroll, be able to hold all the eggs for 30 minutes, I think that's the standard time limit for having to pick which egg you keep on your scroll, unless that changed. And during that 30 minute time, make them tradeable.

 

Have the option to quickly run a lotto, or a speed trade for the eggs. Maybe bump the time up to an hour. That way, you can pick where all the eggs go. In the example above, say the person with the CB shimmer wanted to trade all 2nd gen offsprings away, but couldn't because they all got autoabandoned? They could've gotten more nice things for the other 2nd gen shimmers, but didn't. Instead, the only person that benefited from it was the random person whose finger was quick on the click.

 

Of course, there's those who wouldn't mind breeding multiple eggs of nice things to the AP, but forcing people to abandon hard-bred eggs to the AP is the wrong way to go. Given how hard it is to breed prizes, going months without breeding any, and then suddenly you breed 4 at once and only get to keep 1 for trade fodder? No.

 

 

 

 

I would, btw, like to state that I'm using this post as a representative example, not particularly addressing this particular poster, merely hoping to get people to think about the issues raised here and elsewhere, and perhaps question the acceptance of certain attitudes.

 

A number of things I read in the forums here make me wonder about various things which strike me as being rather illogical...

 

 

 

Ummmmm, I would like to make the point that the Prize winners struck it lucky and got one of the very few CB Prizes annually available to, theoretically, everyone in the Cave, at least until winners are actually randomly gifted.

 

The Prize winners - a very few people in a large community - luck out fantastically, without paying anything at all.

 

That's how it works; it's fair.

 

Multiclutches traditionally allow the owner to pick one egg while the rest go to the AP and are available to the rest of the community without them paying anything, even if one or more of those eggs happens to be shiny.

 

That's how it works; it's fair.

 

 

We catch eggs in the Cave without paying anything - is this unfair?

 

 

I seriously wonder how anyone having such incredible luck themselves as to win a CB Prize could grudge a far lower level of similar luck to someone else, or regard some lesser level of potential luck for others as 'unfair'.

 

Why can't they be happy for others, in the same way that most of us are happy for those fortunate enough to win CB Prizes?

 

Also, I have trouble understanding why someone trading for something would see it as 'unfair' that someone else received something similar without paying anything, whether it was acquired by a lucky AP catch or gifted.

 

Would they still feel that way, I wonder, if the situations were reversed, if they themselves lucked into catching a nice 2nd gen in the AP, or won a(nother) CB Prize?

 

Would they regard their own luck as somehow 'unfair' and something to be prevented?

 

If so, wouldn't this outlook indicate that they want no more Raffles or any catching of dragons, at its logical extreme, since no payment to anyone is involved in either case?

 

How much actual DC is involved in the game some people seem to want to play here?

 

 

Why is the concept of potentially sharing some small fraction of the phenomenal luck in winning something in a community-wide raffle among that community in a manner which deprives no owners, (assuming that multi-clutching at the graduated level suggested was accompanied by increased ratios to that extent,) considered so terribly 'unfair' by some in this particular instance?

 

 

People have never been able to control where the rest of a multi-clutch goes once a particular egg has been selected by the owner, and this used to apply to all dragons, and still does in certain cases where the distribution is otherwise limited.

 

 

As WraithZephyr pointed out previously, multi-clutching was initially instituted for special circumstances - a chronic shortage of AP eggs, often with little or nothing available for the community.

 

Multi-clutching was brought in as a fix for that problem, because we are here, and the site exists, for dragon collecting.

 

When multi-clutching became something creating a chronic problem for the community, interfering with the purpose of the site and the players - dragon collecting - it was removed for most dragons.

 

Multi-clutching remained for the Holidays only, to ensure that sufficient Holiday eggs would be available for the community.

 

The suggestion of instituting multi-clutches for the Prizes on the graduated level suggested is aimed at some slight alleviation of the shortage of lower-gens among the community.

 

 

There is NO WAY that 2nd gens are EVER going to become 'common' in this century; this has already been established, because there are far too few CBs to produce them and far too large a pool of players.

 

The Prize sprites themselves are NOT rare and evidently are not intended to be rare - only the CB Prize awards themselves were to be something special among a relatively small pool of people and distributed by pure, random luck to these people.

 

 

However, the introduction of the Raffle Prize Dragons created new problems, and one ultimate effect has been to make everything below 4th gen no longer worthy even to be posted on the Rare trading thread and, with each increasing gen, progressively more useless for breeding even for gifting purposes, never mind trading.

 

Many people don't even have 4th gens, still on the verge of acceptable, but which then breed 5th gens, in turn producing 6ths, which the Prize market typically declares pretty much worthless and which market now seemingly affects virtually everything at DC, now, with even dragons once variously valued by individuals now predominately valued in relation to Prizes.

 

Almost everything that many people can obtain has been declared by this Prize-based market as essentially worthless, and the effects of this disparity among newly-created tiers of site members show in areas such as site attendance, even during fun Holiday Events, for those who can recall what Holiday/Event threads used to look like.

 

Most people joined DC to collect and raise dragons, not play the stock market, never mind one they can't even gain 'stock' to enter into.

 

Staggered increases in the too-rare production of 2nd, 3rd and 4th gens, with the odd multi-clutched shiny winding up in the AP, might be a drop in the bucket, but at least the trickle-down wouldn't be yellow, as in RL, lol, and it would at least help.

 

 

I'm very glad to see some increasing resurgence in trade threads of pretty-lineaged dragons but a new Prize sprite with long-term-unobtainable offspring could possibly smother this recovery...

 

 

 

As has been ably pointed out earlier in this thread, sometime unique problems require unique mechanisms.

 

However, this mechanism - multi-clutching - is NOT unique; merely the targeting of the unique problem area within specific gens in a specific category of dragon is.

 

 

Tawanda001: "I guess I still don't get why multiclutch is necessary for all dragons if we allow prizes to do it. I simply see prizes as much more akin to holidays than to regular cave dragons, ie extremely limited amount of CB's available to breed. ...

 

'...Prizes were unique and brought a completely new set of problems to deal with, personally I don't think the answer lies in insisting that they need to be treated just like regular dragons when it comes to trying to fix those problems.'

 

 

The above sounds remarkably like common sense to me.

 

Gratuitously reinstating something already resulting in another major, long-running problem in the past, previously fixed in great part by its removal when it was no longer a benefit but a liability in that particular area and circumstance, as a condition of the enactment of something similar being required to act as a fix somewhere else now, isn't exactly commonsensical, lol.

 

 

Since everyone has different methods of scroll play, honestly consider; is it sensible to allow the Cave overall to be adversely affected by those having more specific playing requirements than others?

 

Those who wished to control all eggs in multi-clutches through probably the bulk of DC's history have had the option of simply not breeding, and still would - it being, as always, their dragons, their choice, as to whether they'd rather do without themselves rather than risk letting any spill-over shiny into the community at large.

 

They'd still have their CB Prizes - the result of their own blind luck - no matter what.

 

 

Personally, while I can only speak for myself, I'd love to have my few 2nd/3rd-gens contribute the odd extra shiny to the community on the too-rare occasions they produce them, and I don't see why the unusually specific requirements of some other players should necessarily limit the chances of that happening, when they can control their own dragons and scrolls as they please, whether multi-clutching was to occur or not.

 

If a BSA allowing choice as to increasing the odds of a multi-clutch in lower-gens is the only potential way to go, I'll take it, but I do find it rather sad that the long-existing standard method for random community sharing of extras of special eggs - the CB producers of which in this case were originally randomly shared among the community via Raffle - is being shunned by some beneficiaries (whether directly or indirectly,) of one such community sharing mechanism, wherever their own additional personal advantage cannot be obtained from luck they may have had, but would deny others any lesser opportunity of.

 

 

I'd actually also like to hear more from other people whose breeding is potentially affected by this, people who have 2nd and third gens, as to whether they'd like their dragons producing more and able to potentially produce more than one egg per breeding.

 

There are likely far more of us than of CB Prize owners, and yet relatively few seem to be expressing their opinions as affected breeders per se on this thread.

 

 

TL:DR - if you lack understanding of what's involved in a post regarding a complex situation which won't pack into a couple of lines of text, it's rather difficult to develop informed opinions on what's been said...

[Starscream]

There may be an impression that prize winners will be expected to pop out eggs if this is implemented, but no one is demanding that they breed for the benefit of others.

My experience with the demanding comes from a prize winner themselves, Not this thread. The prize winner has all but left DC as a result.

[Amazon_warrior]

I am not seeing people demand anything in this thread. They are simply either speaking in favor of or against the suggestion. Also, as per the original multi-clutch mechanic, breeding can still result in only one egg as opposed to four. If this suggestion is implemented, good. If it isn't, that's fine too and prize winners still have the option to breed or not breed their eggs regardless of what happens. There may be an impression that prize winners will be expected to pop out eggs if this is implemented, but no one is demanding that they breed for the benefit of others.

People are effectively saying, "You have something shiny and rare that we don't even think you deserve to have, and we want a piece of it!" *shrug*

 

 

(I suppose I should note, again, that I am *not* opposed to a multiclutch BSA or multiclutch for ALL breeds; I strenuously object to Prizes, expecially low-gen ones, being singled out for "special treatment".)

Edited January 4, 2015 by Amazon_warrior

[MedievalMystic]

Why can't they be happy for others, in the same way that most of us are happy for those fortunate enough to win CB Prizes?

 

That's hilarious. Why is that funny? Because I already know what's coming when TJ announces the winners, and it won't be 'happiness' for them, not by a long shot, not around here and certainly not by most from what I've been witness to. lmao

 

People are effectively saying, "You have something shiny and rare that we don't even think you deserve to have, and we want a piece of it!" *shrug*

 

That's exactly how I see it.

Edited January 4, 2015 by MedievalMystic

[Jazeki]

@Starscream and Amazon_warrior- I am sorry that some prize winners feel that way (and I suppose the "you deserve to have comment" is more directed at Amazon because you caught the prize as opposed to winning it), but these experiences do not represent the whole (or probably even the majority) of the forum userbase. I think if prizes multi-clutched then users would be less likely to PM winners in an attempt to get prizes because of the chance of finding a low gen prize in the AP.

 

I have 3rd gen prizes and I honestly wouldn't care if extra babies went to the AP and if I had a CB prize, I wouldn't care if extra babies went to the AP. But that's me. I also support all breeds (including prizes) being able to multi-clutch if there were a BSA or a similar suggestion implemented.

Edited January 4, 2015 by Jazeki

[MedievalMystic]

I think if prizes multi-clutched then users would be less likely to PM winners in an attempt to get prizes because of the chance of finding a low gen prize in the AP.

 

People shouldn't be hounding or badgering the winners to begin with, eggs in the AP or no eggs in the AP. I once said long ago in another thread that if I won a prize egg, those that PM'd me and dog piled me about it would never see an egg off that dragon. Unless the winner clearly states in their sig or in a thread that they welcome requests, people should assume they don't and leave them alone.

Edited January 4, 2015 by MedievalMystic

[Starscream]

In your terms then, you are saying, "you're asking for it if you don't breed" or "you deserve to get hassled" if you don't breed. Who the eggs should be their right and their right alone.

 

Edit: in regards to Jazeki.

 

 

Edit: The winners should not be badgered at all unless they clearly state they are open to requests. I am with MM in that I would not give an egg to anyone who asks me without my express permission to ask me.

Edited January 4, 2015 by Starscream

[Fuzzbucket]

Do you like to control every dollar of your paycheck or is it alright for the neighbors to decide what you'll be doing with some of it? Why should DC be any different? If I won a prize, it's MINE and so are it's eggs. I decide where the eggs go, if they go anywhere. Why should anyone else here get to decide for me? Why should anyone here be able to gain from what's mine unless I want them to gain from it? Multi clutching prize eggs takes control away from the prize winner. I'm not down with that at all.

I am OK with paying taxes and having a government choose to spend it on health services and roads and the like. (I'm not personally OK if they spend it on weapons - but we all have our tax preferences !)

[Fuzzbucket]

Also, I have trouble understanding why someone trading for something would see it as 'unfair' that someone else received something similar without paying anything, whether it was acquired by a lucky AP catch or gifted.

 

Would they still feel that way, I wonder, if the situations were reversed, if they themselves lucked into catching a nice 2nd gen in the AP, or won a(nother) CB Prize?

 

Would they regard their own luck as somehow 'unfair' and something to be prevented?

 

If so, wouldn't this outlook indicate that they want no more Raffles or any catching of dragons, at its logical extreme, since no payment to anyone is involved in either case?

I own a second gen prize. Don't ask, please! as well as my gifting, he has a list as long as several arms !

 

I have gifted all but one of his eggs so far. Is that fair to everyone else here I didn't gift to ??

 

Is it more fair if I drop his eggs to the AP ? If so, why is it ?

 

Either way, someone gets a perceivedly terribly wonderful egg for nothing - just as the prize winners did... If he turns up multiclutches - more power to him

 

Syphoneira - your post - too long to repost here - says absolutely everything for me - thank you. Please have a poinsettia in recognition of your talent.

I am one who wishes the raffles had never been invented, but it's too late now, and so now one has to collect the sprites for completeness if nothing else. I have very many of strange lineages. I love them all. They are SPRITES, when all is said and done. They look just as pretty, whoever their parents are.

Edited January 4, 2015 by fuzzbucket