ANSWERED:Multi clutch for Prize dragons?

[_Sin_]

Prizes breed true all year long. Holidays do not except their specific period. Unless you wish for prizes to only breed true during a week a year... they are not holiday.

Considering the complaints of their owners, they do worse than that.

And I'm going to bed before I get myself more in trouble than I'm right now.

[DarkEternity]

Your post partly addresses what I dealt with in my post, however consider the following scenarios:

 

1. Every time a person presses a button, they produce a one dollar coin which they can keep. The feeling of control

 

2. Every time a person a presses a button, they produce a one dollar coin which they can keep. However, they don't see that they are actually producing two one dollar coin - one which they keep and one which is secretly given to somebody else without your knowledge. The illusion of control

 

3. Every time a person presses a button, they produce a two one dollar coins, only one of which they can keep. The loss of control

 

In scenario 3, the person would have a lower level of happiness than the people in scenario 1 and 2 even if they are keeping the same number of coins from the process. Neither of the three people are losing anything or having their rights violated, however the person in scenario 3 would feel as if they are losing something or having their rights violated.

 

If everyone was experiencing scenario 3 from the very start, they would have never felt the bitterness of having what they see as their 'rights' downgraded. However, the feeling of control is simply an illusion of the mind because you would possess the same level of happiness if you were in both scenario 2 and 3.

 

Now consider a fourth scenario.

 

4. Every time a person presses a button, they produce a one dollar coin which they can keep. However, there is another button presser introduced. Every time this person pushes a button, they also produce a one dollar coin which they choose to give to another person. However, the twist is that the other person is secretly a robot and the coin would therefore be distributed at random.

 

Scenario 4 is functionally identical to scenario 3, however, again the person feels happy even if they are experiencing the same loss of rights.

 

What I am beginning to understand is that this proposition will never work, not because it is invalid but because of human nature. You see something and you want it and knowing that you cannot keep it is the worst feeling of it all -- even if the same number of eggs are still being produced effectively! An interesting, interesting situation.

Edited January 6, 2015 by DarkEternity

[AnanoKimi]

Your post partly addresses what I dealt with in my post, however consider the following scenarios:

 

1. Every time a person presses a button, they produce a one dollar coin which they can keep. The feeling of control

 

2. Every time a person a presses a button, they produce a one dollar coin which they can keep. However, they don't see that they are actually producing two one dollar coin - one which they keep and one which is secretly given to somebody else without your knowledge. The illusion of control

 

3. Every time a person presses a button, they produce a two one dollar coins, only one of which they can keep. The loss of control

 

In scenario 3, the person would have a lower level of happiness than the people in scenario 1 and 2 even if they are keeping the same number of coins from the process. Neither of the three people are losing anything or having their rights violated, however the person in scenario 3 would feel as if they are losing something or having their rights violated.

 

If everyone was experiencing scenario 3 from the very start, they would have never felt the bitterness of having what they see as their 'rights' downgraded. However, the feeling of control is simply an illusion of the mind because you would possess the same level of happiness if you were in both scenario 2 and 3.

 

Now consider a fourth scenario.

 

4. Every time a person presses a button, they produce a one dollar coin which they can keep. However, there is another button presser introduced. Every time this person pushes a button, they also produce a one dollar coin which they choose to give to another person. However, the twist is that the other person is secretly a robot and the coin would therefore be distributed at random.

 

Scenario 4 is functionally identical to scenario 3, however, again the person feels happy even if they are experiencing the same loss of rights.

 

What I am beginning to understand is that this proposition will never work, not because it is invalid but because of human nature. You see something and you want it and knowing that you cannot keep it is the worst feeling of it all -- even if the same number of eggs are still being produced effectively! An interesting, interesting situation.

Personally I dont mind my eggs multi clutching. I would love it because I am one of those that regardless of scenario 3 causing some loss of control, I dont care, that extra one dollar coin will hopefully make someone happy, an that makes me happy. There arethose as you have mentioned that dislike that loss of control and precicely for those people is that the suggestion should be modified to allow freedom to choose wether thatextra dollar coin should be produced at all, to continue giving that person the feeling of control.

 

Human nature is indeed a very interesting thing. The fact that scenario 3 doesnt bother me in the least makes me a tad confused though

[DarkEternity]

Personally I dont mind my eggs multi clutching. I would love it because I am one of those that regardless of scenario 3 causing some loss of control, I dont care, that extra one dollar coin will hopefully make someone happy, an that makes me happy. There arethose as you have mentioned that dislike that loss of control and precicely for those people is that the suggestion should be modified to allow freedom to choose wether thatextra dollar coin should be produced at all, to continue giving that person the feeling of control.

 

Human nature is indeed a very interesting thing. The fact that scenario 3 doesnt bother me in the least makes me a tad confused though

I guess it becomes very Inception-esque as if the logic worked and the happiness that I attributed to winning a prize dragon was the most important thing about it, then what if a person were to dream that they won a prize dragon? To maximise that state of happiness, we should trap the person forever in that dream..

 

So maybe the happiness argument doesn't really work too well.

 

I feel myself crawling closer to neutrality every year that the topic is raised, honestly. It's been five years since the first contest.

Edited January 6, 2015 by DarkEternity

[LadyFoxfire]

I think it would all work out best if prize dragons only bred the one egg, but actually gave an egg more often than not. Though... I believe I've found a good way around the ratio thing. I'll share my personal experience. I have a low gen shimmer and I find it's more willing to give me an egg to give away right after a release of new common dragons. Hope this helps those prize breeders out there. I did a bit of experimenting with that. It didn't make it 100 percent, but it pushed up the success rate quite noticeably.

 

Either way, I wouldn't really mind if I had a prize and it was multi-clutching. I'd just say good luck to the ones who were hunting the AP at that moment. I'd even send a message out to everyone to warn that I was doing that breeding so everyone would get a fair chance to catch the offspring. Personally, I just love seeing my dragons' offspring get caught, grow up, named, etc. A little extension of the family.

 

Edited for typos at 2:30 am. Ugh.

Edited January 6, 2015 by LadyFoxfire

[DarkEternity]

Lady Foxfire I think this one is closer: https://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showtopic=158657

[Amazon_warrior]

(Fast thread moves fast... o_o; )

 

 

I do know that I would not be announcing any win here. I don't know why people DO. I have never understood the need to "boast " (read"sharing your joy" - but...) to people you don't know. Sure tell the people you KNOW here - but otherwise it's like telling people on facebook you won the eurolottery. 99% of those who see the post will not be happy for you- why WOULD all these strangers give a toss - but they WILL want some of what you've got.

I don't think it's really boasting, not consciously. Picking up on this because it was also raised a few pages back too. When you're on the receiving end of some incredible stroke of luck, it can be extremely hard to compute and get your head around, and the urge to share what just happened is overpowering. I'm neither a new player or particularly young and giddy IRL (I'm in my 30s), but I still publicly exploded when I found Luckiest Catch, even though I didn't intend to. It was as though I didn't believe what had happened and sharing on the forums it made it more real. It wasn't meant to be a "Look how great I am, all you lot suck, lol!" move AT. ALL. Maybe some people took it that way though, I dunno. If the internets have taught me anything, it's that there's nothing so simple and straightforward that someone somewhere cannot misconstrue it. I also know that last year I was PMed in confidence by several people who'd won because they wanted to share their win with someone that, presumably, they knew would be happy for them (I was thrilled for them; seeing people you know and like win feels almost as good as having the same luck yourself) and who also wouldn't immediately turn around and demand an offspring (I didn't, though I have subsequently traded with some of them in their own time).

 

Additionally, on Prize owners taking better control: I agree, yes, they should. BUT. Again, I was an established forum member, I'd seen a couple of years of Prize dragons come and go, I'm not some giddy teen, and I *still* ended up with a large-ish list that took over a year and a half to clear. If you've not experienced something like this before, you're new to the forums and/or you're full of youthful enthusiasm, it would be horribly easy to be swept away by the whole thing. We've seen it every year. I'm wondering if I shouldn't bump my Prize Owner's Guide sooner rather than later, then people can have a read, since I covered many of the points people are raising here a year ago. I skim-read it and it pretty much all still applies.

 

(Also, I agree with EVERYTHING Fiona BlueFire said about rolling lists. Just, don't do that to yourselves.)

[Fuzzbucket]

(Fast thread moves fast... o_o; )

 

 

 

I don't think it's really boasting, not consciously. Picking up on this because it was also raised a few pages back too. When you're on the receiving end of some incredible stroke of luck, it can be extremely hard to compute and get your head around, and the urge to share what just happened is overpowering. I'm neither a new player or particularly young and giddy IRL (I'm in my 30s), but I still publicly exploded when I found Luckiest Catch, even though I didn't intend to. It was as though I didn't believe what had happened and sharing on the forums it made it more real. It wasn't meant to be a "Look how great I am, all you lot suck, lol!" move AT. ALL. Maybe some people took it that way though, I dunno. If the internets have taught me anything, it's that there's nothing so simple and straightforward that someone somewhere cannot misconstrue it. I also know that last year I was PMed in confidence by several people who'd won because they wanted to share their win with someone that, presumably, they knew would be happy for them (I was thrilled for them; seeing people you know and like win feels almost as good as having the same luck yourself) and who also wouldn't immediately turn around and demand an offspring (I didn't, though I have subsequently traded with some of them in their own time).

 

Additionally, on Prize owners taking better control: I agree, yes, they should. BUT. Again, I was an established forum member, I'd seen a couple of years of Prize dragons come and go, I'm not some giddy teen, and I *still* ended up with a large-ish list that took over a year and a half to clear. If you've not experienced something like this before, you're new to the forums and/or you're full of youthful enthusiasm, it would be horribly easy to be swept away by the whole thing. We've seen it every year. I'm wondering if I shouldn't bump my Prize Owner's Guide sooner rather than later, then people can have a read, since I covered many of the points people are raising here a year ago. I skim-read it and it pretty much all still applies.

 

(Also, I agree with EVERYTHING Fiona BlueFire said about rolling lists. Just, don't do that to yourselves.)

Yes. Especially about lists. I must say - in your situation I might have exploded - but that was a bit of a freak thing !!!

 

But I honestly don't have any need to post to several thousand people, of whom I "know" maybe 50, about what happens to me...

 

That's probably why I also have no interest in facebook

[Amazon_warrior]

Yes. Especially about lists. I must say - in your situation I might have exploded - but that was a bit of a freak thing !!!

 

But I honestly don't have any need to post to several thousand people, of whom I "know" maybe 50, about what happens to me...

 

That's probably why I also have no interest in facebook

I guess what I'm trying to say is, you can make all kinds of "I'll do this and such-and-such and also the other!" decisions about a hypothetical situation, but when you actually find yourself in that situation you may behave very differently because being in that situation reveals new perspectives that you couldn't possibly have considered. (Not you specifically, fuzz, it applies to everyone.)

[Fuzzbucket]

I guess what I'm trying to say is, you can make all kinds of "I'll do this and such-and-such and also the other!" decisions about a hypothetical situation, but when you actually find yourself in that situation you may behave very differently because being in that situation reveals new perspectives that you couldn't possibly have considered.  (Not you specifically, fuzz, it applies to everyone.)

Oh be specific, AW - I don't mind I know what you are saying - but being me, I also know I wouldn't give a flying toss about "sharing" - except with actual, personal friends. (I might tell YOU. But by PM - that kinds of thing.)

Edited January 6, 2015 by fuzzbucket

[Amazon_warrior]

Oh be specific, AW - I don't mind I know what you are saying - but being me, I also know I wouldn't give a flying toss about "sharing" - except with actual, personal friends. (I might tell YOU. But by PM - that kinds of thing.)

In fairness, fuzz, you don't fall into the category of "giddy young forum newbie" very much! (Though I'm not sure I'd strike off "giddy" ) The older/more experienced players who've won in the past generally seem to cope better and are better at keeping their good fortune low-key.

[Fuzzbucket]

In fairness, fuzz, you don't fall into the category of "giddy young forum newbie" very much! (Though I'm not sure I'd strike off "giddy" ) The older/more experienced players who've won in the past generally seem to cope better and are better at keeping their good fortune low-key.

I'm only 70...

[cyradis4]

I guess what I'm trying to say is, you can make all kinds of "I'll do this and such-and-such and also the other!" decisions about a hypothetical situation, but when you actually find yourself in that situation you may behave very differently because being in that situation reveals new perspectives that you couldn't possibly have considered. (Not you specifically, fuzz, it applies to everyone.)

Yep. You can't know how you will react in a given situation until it happens.

 

As for some people wanting complete control vs those who don't care who gets their eggs.... Typical human nature, and its why I feel this is best in any sort of general BSA.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[Vhale]

Bumping the prize guide would be good.

 

I would totally forum squee if I got a prize. Given that I keep my scroll pretty public I would expect people to find it anyway. And I wouldn't want to change that for the sake of one egg. Having to fog due to stalkers would make me sad.

 

But given how numerous Hollies are and seeing prize even gens pop up, I am hoping they are getting numerous enough that the issue is abating. Granted, that being the case I'm not sure I see a great need for multi clutch, but don't oppose it or the bsa either.

 

The best laid plans...

[olympe]

I do agree with this actually. Even though it means people may share less than I would personally like. (For niceness, not for getting me what I want !)

 

To whomever said "who says sharing is good ?" - we are taught that in nursery school: Share your toys.

Some day you may NEED someone to share with you. No man is an island...

 

But yes to Starscream. they aren't holidays. Fair enough.

Nope. Prizes aren't holidays. They could - theoretically - breed 52 prize eggs a year.

 

In reality, they don't. Some don't even get to 3 prizes a year, a number which many holiday dragons reach or even surpass. And let's not talk about how incredibly rare low-gen prizes are. My guess is that there are more CB and 2nd gen hollies around than CB and 2nd gen prizes - and even if not, the numbers of CBs of every other single holiday dragon is way higher than that of any kind of prize. And don't forget that there are 6, soon 9 prize sprites to collect (if TJ stays true to his pattern).

[JavaTigress]

Bumping the prize guide would be good.

 

Given that I keep my scroll pretty public I would expect people to find it anyway. And I wouldn't want to change that for the sake of one egg. Having to fog due to stalkers would make me sad.

 

I have to agree with this. I like to keep my scroll public.

 

AND Olympe makes a good point in that in variably, it is the dragns you REALLY want an egg from that decide to get stubborn. That is true for COMMONS, even, in my experience , and it is worse for anything, ANYTHING shiny.

[Tigerkralle]

Prize dragons are Prize dragons they are ultarare and i like it that way. So i can be excited and jumping around if i found a pretty lineage or a very short lineage. Let us keep the prize dragons special.

 

And when i personally never own a 2G prize dragon or will win the raffle so be it.

 

Er when was the system for breeding changed? My oldest dragon was laid on: Aug 26, 2012 and i can remember that i breed once or twice and that i was able to keep one egg and the other egg(s) are going to AP... Then i was inactive for years! So many new dragons and a lot of changes.

[SolarCat]

Yep. You can't know how you will react in a given situation until it happens.

 

As for some people wanting complete control vs those who don't care who gets their eggs.... Typical human nature, and its why I feel this is best in any sort of general BSA.

 

Cheers!

C4.

I also think a BSA option to multi-clutch would be the cleanest solution - this way, everyone can still play the way they wish to play, and it can be viewed as everyone as an ADDITION to the game, rather than arguments about whether it's an improvement or a problem. I know that I would use this BSA, if it existed, although I am not sure which dragon it would fit

[LibbyLishly]

Honestly, my biggest problem with this suggestion is singling out a breed to be able to multi-clutch, just because low generation offspring of the breed considered highly desirable to many users. I understand the reasons why it's being suggested just for the Prize dragons, but I'd really rather see an across-the-board multi-clutch option, even with all the troubles THAT could potentially bring. I'd even support a new breed who had the specific characteristic of producing multi-clutches anytime they bred. However, I don't feel like this is necessarily the best option to spread the Prize love.

[Red2111]

i still dont support this (though as a BSA that allows a person to choose to influence a dragon to being more likely of multi-clutching like a Holiday i can support)

 

reasons -

 

- messing up the ratios. it will cause more prize eggs to be produced and there for will cause prize dragons to breed worse. it also creates more breeding dragons out of there and will wreak havoc on the population (think population of cats, 1 produces 4, those 4 produce 16, those 16 produce 64, ect) we'd make production worse and prizes more stingy cause we'd hit the limit on the ratio faster.

 

- people deserve the right to determine who gets the offspring of their dragons they breed, regardless if its a prize line or common. if i had a prize dragon, i'd want to make sure its offspring went to a person that would appreciate it, not kill it, trade it for absurd things, bite it or zombify it.

 

- unfair to people you trade with. i have lists on some of my prize lines. if a dragon is forced to multi-clutch and is an already stubborn producer; this means people i want to trade with, and have been waiting forever for an egg, will be less likely to get an egg or it will take longer.

 

- theres no reason why prizes should multi-clutch. holidays do so because they can only breed true 1 week every year; the rest of the year when you breed commons from them, you dont get a multi clutch. prizes breed true all year, theres no reason game wise why they should be privileged in multi-clutching when other non-seasonals dont.

 

 

as a side note, i still think that if you have the eggs space open, you should be able to keep more than one egg from any of your multi-clutches. if i have 4 slots open, and my Heartseeker gives 2 eggs, i should have the option to keep both eggs. if i have 2 slots open and my Solstice gives 4 eggs, i should have the option to keep 2 eggs.

 

i get why there was a limit of 1 egg per clutch when we had limits. now we dont have limits. if we have the egg space we should have the option to keep the eggs

[Syphoneira]

Your post partly addresses what I dealt with in my post, however consider the following scenarios:

 

1. Every time a person presses a button, they produce a one dollar coin which they can keep. The feeling of control

 

2. Every time a person a presses a button, they produce a one dollar coin which they can keep. However, they don't see that they are actually producing two one dollar coin - one which they keep and one which is secretly given to somebody else without your knowledge. The illusion of control

 

3. Every time a person presses a button, they produce a two one dollar coins, only one of which they can keep. The loss of control

 

In scenario 3, the person would have a lower level of happiness than the people in scenario 1 and 2 even if they are keeping the same number of coins from the process. Neither of the three people are losing anything or having their rights violated, however the person in scenario 3 would feel as if they are losing something or having their rights violated.

 

If everyone was experiencing scenario 3 from the very start, they would have never felt the bitterness of having what they see as their 'rights' downgraded. However, the feeling of control is simply an illusion of the mind because you would possess the same level of happiness if you were in both scenario 2 and 3.

 

Now consider a fourth scenario.

 

4. Every time a person presses a button, they produce a one dollar coin which they can keep. However, there is another button presser introduced. Every time this person pushes a button, they also produce a one dollar coin which they choose to give to another person. However, the twist is that the other person is secretly a robot and the coin would therefore be distributed at random.

 

Scenario 4 is functionally identical to scenario 3, however, again the person feels happy even if they are experiencing the same loss of rights.

 

What I am beginning to understand is that this proposition will never work, not because it is invalid but because of human nature. You see something and you want it and knowing that you cannot keep it is the worst feeling of it all -- even if the same number of eggs are still being produced effectively! An interesting, interesting situation.

 

 

 

Yup, you nailed it, and this IS interesting!

 

Makes you wonder if there's an army of sociologists following this, lol.

 

 

 

Amazon_warrior also nailed it, with the illustration of the natural human urge to shriek extreme good fortune to the sky and to glory in that of others.

 

Sensible doesn't always enter into it, lol.

[Fuzzbucket]

as a side note, i still think that if you have the eggs space open, you should be able to keep more than one egg from any of your multi-clutches. if i have 4 slots open, and my Heartseeker gives 2 eggs, i should have the option to keep both eggs. if i have 2 slots open and my Solstice gives 4 eggs, i should have the option to keep 2 eggs.

 

i get why there was a limit of 1 egg per clutch when we had limits. now we dont have limits. if we have the egg space we should have the option to keep the eggs

No. Absolutely not. Holidays are different; they only breed once a year and need spreading around.

 

DarkEternity and AW hit the nail on the head - over his one too. It might be better if we couldn't see the other eggs of our clutches - but it is such fun picking a code

[whitebaron]

In reality, they don't. Some don't even get to 3 prizes a year, a number which many holiday dragons reach or even surpass.

Most of those breed to impossible pairings, which should never be considered if you want anything else. It's like the Royal Crimson prize lines - They are almost extinct, well, guess why - because they produce so many crimsons that the owners drown in them.

[AnanoKimi]

I like the point red made. yes it could be easy to hoard and trade all the eggs of a multi clutch during holidays but once you start keeping more and more eggs from your multi clutch, even those of us with 7 egg slots will fill up pretty fast. Meaning even if I have no eggs, my solstice produces 4 eggs and I keep them all, thets 4 eggs less I can keep. My Ribbon dancer produces another four, I can only keep 3, that would immediately fill my scroll. I would have to dump, gift, or trade to free up more space.

 

And if I want to gift my Holiday eggs ONLY to my friends or to specific people I CHOOSE I have that right.

 

BUUUUUUUT I wouldnt say keep all of your multi clutch though. I mean if a dragon can produce up to 4 eggs, I say we should be allowed control of half. That means even if my scroll is empty and my Solstice produces 4 eggs, I should only be allowed control of 2 eggs. 2 for me, 2 for the AP. I think that's fair. I can gift and trade, and throwthose eggs how I want, and some sneaky AP stalker with lightning speed can have the other 2 I let go. and if it drops below 4 like 3 then just take it back to one egg for me two for the AP. In Max production, its not gonna kill anyone if I keep to of the eggs that I bred and I want. With so many people breeding and hoarding, they'll find one.

[JavaTigress]

No. Absolutely not. Holidays are different; they only breed once a year and need spreading around.

 

DarkEternity and AW hit the nail on the head - over his one too. It might be better if we couldn't see the other eggs of our clutches - but it is such fun picking a code

What IF you got to pick the code... but that you didn't KNOW what breed the eggies were until you picked?