Unfreezing

[danicast]

cyradis4 sorry, I just saw your post now, for some reason when I refreshed the page I haven't see it.

 

I know a member who simply circumvented the growing things limits with a simple trick: they offered trades all year for low time holiday hatchies - and they meant really low times, you should deliver the hatchie only when there was an hour left before grow up - and using this trick they collected more than 100 hatchies (I checked their scroll at the time). I know this story because all my friends from the other forum where I go were raising holiday hatchies for this person. So, you see, smart people can create ways to circumvent any restrictions and still play by the rules. There is no limit to intelligence and creativity.

 

Games need simple rules and simple mechanisms. So I'll stick with my opinion, ok? You guys are great discussing things.

 

edwardelricfreak: oh, ok. I don't know how this affects ratio but I believe that TJ can make the necessary measures to fix the problem.

Edited July 17, 2014 by danicast

[edwardelricfreak]

I know a member who simply circumvented the growing things limits with a simple trick: they offered trades all year for low time holiday hatchies - and they meant really low times, you should deliver the hatchie only when there was an hour left before grow up - and using this trick they collected more than 100 hatchies (I checked their scroll at the time). I know this story because all my friends from the other forum where I go were raising holiday hatchies for this person. So, you see, smart people can create ways to circumvent any restrictions and still play by the rules. There is no limit to intelligence and creativity.

I thought those were zombies and the hatchlings died anyway so they didn't actually have growing things when they had all of them?

[cyradis4]

cyradis4 sorry, I just saw your post now, for some reason when I refreshed the page I haven't see it.

 

I know a member who simply circumvented the growing things limits with a simple trick: they offered trades all year for low time holiday hatchies - and they meant really low times, you should deliver the hatchie only when there was an hour left before grow up - and using this trick they collected more than 100 hatchies (I checked their scroll at the time). I know this story because all my friends from the other forum where I go were raising holiday hatchies for this person. So, you see, smart people can create ways to circumvent any restrictions and still play by the rules. There is no limit to intelligence and creativity.

 

Games need simple rules and simple mechanisms. So I'll stick with my opinion, ok? You guys are great discussing things.

 

edwardelricfreak: oh, ok. I don't know how this affects ratio but I believe that TJ can make the necessary measures to fix the problem.

Yep, but here's the rub:

Someone still had to raise those hatchies for that full time, at Halloween. And they've had to trade things from their dragons to get them. And the person receiving them still had to manage the trades, still had to be available. Still had to put in the effort.

 

With Freeze, you can stop the growing process at just hatched. So, no one has to raise that hatchie for those 3 days. Yes, you'd have to wait 2 weeks, but you'd basically get 16 free hatchies. With no effort, no risk, and no meaningful time delay.

 

Cheers!

C4.

 

 

[olympe]

Very true.

 

And, yes, I've seen a scroll with 76 (or so - might have been 74, or maybe 86 or something. It was definitely above 60.) CB Shadow Walkers. All gained through trading for low-time holiday hatchlings. Kudos to that!

[danicast]

I thought those were zombies and the hatchlings died anyway so they didn't actually have growing things when they had all of them?

No, they were graves (last halloween?). I saw all of them adults.

[edwardelricfreak]

No, they were graves (last halloween?). I saw all of them adults.

Exactly. They weren't growing things.

 

Or...wait. I think I just misunderstood you. I thought you meant they got around the 'growing things' limit. Never mind.

[danicast]

Exactly. They weren't growing things.

 

Or...wait. I think I just misunderstood you. I thought you meant they got around the 'growing things' limit. Never mind.

This is exactly what I meant. They used an intelligent trick to work around the growing things limit and get dozens of CB halloween. It was very clever.

[edwardelricfreak]

So they had more than 21 growing things at one time? (assuming they had a gold trophy)

Edited July 17, 2014 by edwardelricfreak

[danicast]

So they had more than 21 growing things at one time? (assuming they had a gold trophy)

I don't know, Edward, I saw the graves as an adults. But they definitely worked around the problem "how do I get dozens of holidays hatchies all at once and get dozens of CB holidays"? (And they didn't even used the freeze option.) Some people here used that as an argument against the unfreeze action: because people will get more hatchies. Well , there are people already getting more hatchies, using simply their intelligence and trade skills.

 

 

[purplehaze]

If they were only accepting the hatchies when they were extreme ER they could have adults in a very short time and then take on another load of ER hatchies. There would be no need to have more than 21 growing things at a time. But that does take considerably more effort and coordination and skill than just freezing a bunch and unfreezing them later.

[danicast]

I don't understand what this have to do with the current subject. I don't see a new action that allows people to freeze/unfreeze 10 dragons every 15 days as so evil that could cause any troubles or break the game. So just because freeze/unfreeze doesn't require coordination and skill is unaceptable? There are people discussing right now to add a warning that people are egglocked so people don't accidentally breed to AP. Following the same logic, these people are not enough coordinated/skilled to play the game so the warning should not exist because skills and coordination are a requirement to play the game?

[purplehaze]

No, sorry. I was just trying to explain to eef how it could be done without exceeding 21 growing things.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

The issue is that one way around the limits is much easier to exploit than the other. Something that easily allows people to use an extra 15 hatchling slots per two weeks is pretty broken.

[danicast]

The issue is that one way around the limits is much easier to exploit than the other. Something that easily allows people to use an extra 15 hatchling slots per two weeks is pretty broken.

Then make it 30 days or 60 days or even 90 days. But not a whole year, it will make the action pretty useless.

[edwardelricfreak]

If they were only accepting the hatchies when they were extreme ER they could have adults in a very short time and then take on another load of ER hatchies. There would be no need to have more than 21 growing things at a time. But that does take considerably more effort and coordination and skill than just freezing a bunch and unfreezing them later.

That's what I figured. It just sounded like danicast was saying they had more than the limit at one time.

 

That is an exploit, though, and yes it takes quite a lot of trading and effort to get all of those hatchlings. If the time is too short for unfreezing, yes it's going to be used to exploit limits, which is what we're trying to avoid. The hatchlings aren't raised to adulthood then, but just frozen and then later finally grown up.

 

The suggestion is more meant for those that regret freezing something. They wait a while (maybe not a whole year, but at least a few months) and then they can finally unfreeze. A whole year would mean, though, that they can't take advantage of holiday dragons, but personally I really don't care if they do that or not. Who cares if extra holidays are bred? That means more for everyone, so I don't have a problem.

 

The point isn't to get adults without actually raising hatchlings.

 

You seem to be under the impression that we're wanting unfreezing to be a get around to actually waiting for the adult to grow up, or something?

Edited July 17, 2014 by edwardelricfreak

[DragonLady86]

Honestly, if people want to find a way to exploit something, they will. And as for CB holidays, remember, it ONLY applies to Halloween dragons. Which is why many users are not as interested in lineages from them, because they are so much more common than other holiday CB's. So, even if someone did freeze their limit of 15 one year and grabbed (unlikely, Halloween is only 1 day drop) or traded for more, they would still have to wait 2 years to breed them to get more Halloweens. (because even with 1 year limit it would still be AFTER Halloween when they could be unfrozen because they can not hatch on the first day.)

 

So, again, what limits are we worried about being exploited here?

[cyradis4]

Honestly, if people want to find a way to exploit something, they will. And as for CB holidays, remember, it ONLY applies to Halloween dragons. Which is why many users are not as interested in lineages from them, because they are so much more common than other holiday CB's. So, even if someone did freeze their limit of 15 one year and grabbed (unlikely, Halloween is only 1 day drop) or traded for more, they would still have to wait 2 years to breed them to get more Halloweens. (because even with 1 year limit it would still be AFTER Halloween when they could be unfrozen because they can not hatch on the first day.)

 

So, again, what limits are we worried about being exploited here?

It applies to all Holliday dragons, actually.

 

You can now have unlimited bred Christmas and Valentine's dragons, but only two CBs. That changed last Christmas.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[danicast]

It applies to all Holliday dragons, actually.

 

You can now have unlimited bred Christmas and Valentine's dragons, but only two CBs. That changed last Christmas.

 

Cheers!

C4.

This argument is what makes less sense to me. With unfreezing or without those who have 2 CB Christmas will continue to have only 2 CB Christmas, frozen or not. Those Christmas will never drop again so all that they will be able to do is unfreeze ONE dragon, if they have one frozen.

What is the problem with that?

 

If we put a limit of 10 frozen dragons per 15 days and then a limit to have to wait, let's say, 30 days to unfreeze them all that people will get is 10 bred holidays anyway.

[DragonLady86]

It applies to all Holliday dragons, actually.

 

You can now have unlimited bred Christmas and Valentine's dragons, but only two CBs. That changed last Christmas.

 

Cheers!

C4.

I know you can unlimited bred ones, but I don't see what the big deal is with that, again except for Hollies, everyone looking for trades only want 2ng gens, soooo, it's not like they could rack up a huge trading group. So, again, why do we care how many a person can manage to catch if it will be 2 years before they can use 15 of them. Because they still have to be around long enough to hatch, so still can't be unfroze and bred the first year. Which they could get 15 easily in 2 years anyway without exploiting.

 

Should also mention, a person can only freeze a max of 15 and it's easily possible to get far more holiday dragons than that if you trade for them. I raised (and froze) several batches last year at Christmas. (none of which are worth unfreezing, even if I didn't just want the hatchling sprites). If the problem is really people collecting too many holiday dragons are we going to insist on a trading limit too? So no one could possibly get more than x a year? It just seems silly to worry about 15 dragons being unable to breed true for 2 years. That is not an exploit.

Edited July 18, 2014 by DragonLady86

[Fuzzbucket]

Purplehaze, I'll be honest, this feature doesn't make any difference to me, I have NOTHING to unfreeze. I have exactly 24 hatchies frozen and I believe that only one is a CB, a grave hatchie who looks too much like a cat and I wanted frozed but I have no intention to unfreeze the little one. But there are points that I think should be discussed in this feature because I've seen other discussions and it really annoys me how much a lot of people seems to be interested in keep building this game as a very restrictive, slow and "underdeveloped" game. This worries me too much because I would like to see myself as player in few years.

One of this game's main attractions is that it ISN'T all "gotta get it NAOW instant gratification". I think it is a really really bad argument to say that we need this because people's attention spans are getting shorter. That is NOT something to be encouraged. We NEED to be able to pay attention in life.

 

I'll only believe in the affirmative that DC is a "waiting game" if TJ comes and say it by himself. I've been playing for almost 2 years as a strategie/action game successfully so maybe for some people is a "waiting game' but it's not, definitely not, for me. To me is not a mandatory definition but a choice of how you play.

And I tell you more: if we don't work to add more interesting features and speed up the game, this game will be dead in a couple of years because the new generations are being raised to have a much more vivid rhythm to everything and this game is too slow. If this game plans to survive for more years we must think in how to improve it. And definitely make people wait a whole year to unfreeze a hatchie is NOT an improvement.

In that case let's just not have unfreeze at all. This game does NOT "need to speed up". If it did - many of us who value it for not being hyperfast will leave. We don't need a more vivid rhythm for everything. I know MANY parents who are now deliberately raising their kids to avoid exactly that. We need to have the time to stand and stare, smell the roses, and the rest. Rushing at everything in life is degrading it, teaching us not to value anything that isn't high speed. UGH. Just UGH !.

[LibbyLishly]

In that case let's just not have unfreeze at all. This game does NOT "need to speed up". If it did - many of us who value it for not being hyperfast will leave. We don't need a more vivid rhythm for everything. I know MANY parents who are now deliberately raising their kids to avoid exactly that. We need to have the time to stand and stare, smell the roses, and the rest. Rushing at everything in life is degrading it, teaching us not to value anything that isn't high speed. UGH. Just UGH !.

Whoa, now, I'm certainly not one arguing that the game needs to speed up, and I'm in favor of unfreezing. I think we may be missing the point by digressing into whether or not DC is a "waiting game" - it's a game that requires some amount of effort from its players, but not the constant, useless chores that many other adoptable sites have (and which have kept me from seriously playing on those sites). I do believe that I'm of a much younger generation than Fuzzbucket (though I couldn't speak to danicast's) but I agree with Fuzz - we don't need everything right now, and I deeply appreciate the slower nature of this game. If someone doesn't like it, there are plenty of fast-paced, constant-attention games out there to enjoy.

 

That said, with regard to the limit of a year+ vs. a few months, I'm planning to leave the OP as is. TJ may decide to adjust it up or down, depending on what he thinks constitutes 'abuse' - heck, he might decide that 16 unfreezes in 2 weeks is perfectly fair. He has all the backdoor site info that I don't and knows how it will affect the game. In the meantime, I'm willing to err on the side of caution for the sake of the suggestion.

Edited July 18, 2014 by LibbyLishly

[KageSora]

I'm in the "younger than Fuzz" crowd, and I agree that I like the more laid-back pace of the game, too. If I want something fast-paced I have plenty of games on my phone I can shell out money via microtransactions in order to get that instant gratification if I want. Or I can pop a game in a console/grab one of my handhelds and play something.

 

Some things, yeah, DC could benefit from some speeding up in certain areas.

 

I personally, don't necesarily think this is one of them. Nor, however, do I think it's one that NEEDS to 100% be slow for the sake of being slow.

 

I believe the entire point of the year-wait suggestion was because it was a compromise to address concerns about people insta-freezing then just unfreezing to get instant adults, which in turn were suggested because people were concerned about people unfreezing frozen retired or CB holidays and how that could impact the trade market.

 

The restrictions currently suggested were added to make the suggestion more acceptable to those who don't like the idea at all, not simply for the sake of adding in restrictions and delays.

 

 

I would imagine, to avoid that issue that was a concern, either they'd need a time-delay before being eligible for unfreezing and then they'd insta-adult, or they'd be scroll-bound hatchies that would be required to start at 7 days again, meaning you couldn't just incu-hatch an egg then freeze and unfreeze for an insta-adult.

[Fuzzbucket]

Whoa, now, I'm certainly not one arguing that the game needs to speed up, and I'm in favor of unfreezing. I think we may be missing the point by digressing into whether or not DC is a "waiting game" - it's a game that requires some amount of effort from its players, but not the constant, useless chores that many other adoptable sites have (and which have kept me from seriously playing on those sites). I do believe that I'm of a much younger generation than Fuzzbucket (though I couldn't speak to danicast's) but I agree with Fuzz - we don't need everything right now, and I deeply appreciate the slower nature of this game. If someone doesn't like it, there are plenty of fast-paced, constant-attention games out there to enjoy.

 

That said, with regard to the limit of a year+ vs. a few months, I'm planning to leave the OP as is. TJ may decide to adjust it up or down, depending on what he thinks constitutes 'abuse' - heck, he might decide that 16 unfreezes in 2 weeks is perfectly fair. He has all the backdoor site info that I don't and knows how it will affect the game. In the meantime, I'm willing to err on the side of caution for the sake of the suggestion.

Hey libby - I wasn't arguing with you. But if people are arguing for this on the basis that the game needs speeding up - then I am instantly agin it ! Like you, I deeply appreciate its slower nature. It is a welcome relief from so much of Real Life - which actually needs slowing down !

 

For other, GAME related, rather than attracting the impatient in life, reasons, and with many limitations - I am OK with the unfreezing concept, and I would much rather see it as an action than a BSA.

[CNR4806]

One of this game's main attractions is that it ISN'T all "gotta get it NAOW instant gratification". I think it is a really really bad argument to say that we need this because people's attention spans are getting shorter. That is NOT something to be encouraged. We NEED to be able to pay attention in life.

 

In that case let's just not have unfreeze at all. This game does NOT "need to speed up". If it did - many of us who value it for not being hyperfast will leave. We don't need a more vivid rhythm for everything. I know MANY parents who are now deliberately raising their kids to avoid exactly that. We need to have the time to stand and stare, smell the roses, and the rest. Rushing at everything in life is degrading it, teaching us not to value anything that isn't high speed. UGH. Just UGH !.

This.

 

Dragon Cave is not my primary game for the overwhelming majority of the time that I've been here, which is longer than any other game that I've spent time with. I find it an enjoyable secondary entertainment exactly because of its slow pace and simplicity. I can squeeze a small amount of time out of my life to pay some attention to it every now and then and not miss out much.

 

Please, if I want to play some game that requires reflex, precise-timing, a lot of math and/or time devotion to make a favorable degree of progress, I have a whole truck load of top-tier FPS and RTS games, as well as some very good 4Xs, MMOs and other games. DC, a simple website-based game, would have no place whatsoever.

 

Not seeing any potential abuse from a suggestion is one thing, trying to justify the abuse by arguing that the game needs to shed one or more of its bigger appeals is another story.

Edited July 18, 2014 by CNR4806

[danicast]

Well, this game could be more creative and rich - but apparently is not going in this direction. I was surprised when I discovered that some suggestions are largely approved by the players but are waiting for years to be implemented.

Of course DC is not my primary game, it's too limited and simple to be. It would need a lot of development to become more interesting. But maybe in 10 or 20 years will become more interesting?

My game of love is The Sims, I've been playing for almost 15 years. <3