Unfreezing

[KageSora]

I made several suggestions about the time. What about start to discuss how much time a hatchie needs to spend frozen before the player will be able to unfreeze it? I suggested 30 days, 60 days and even 90 days and nobody said anything. I really like the 30 days period, I think is more than enough to prevent abuses and enough to make those who already waited happy.

 

Also where are the other forum members? There are like 6 people discussing this. This kind of suggestion should be discussed by more people.

Because the discussion has already happened, and the 1-year wait time proposed was the result of that. You're trying to re-start a discussion that has occurred, not start a brand new discussion on time limits.

 

The entire reason why this is even an issue at all is it was a compromise suggested between those who wanted unfreezing and those who thought of unfreezing as too unbalanced without serious restrictions. Also TJ said to make sure we address potential issues with it, and people using unfreezing to get around hatchling limits and unbalancing the trade market were two major reasons things like the year wait time and the insta-adult were proposed and eventually more or less agreed upon.

 

 

I'd not mind a failure rate for people who want to unfreeze early, with the rate being 100% successful once you hit the set date. I dislike the idea of a death penalty, but maybe along the lines of "you have to wait 24 hours to try to unfreeze again or it will always give you the fail message every time you try", or perhaps with a longer period? That gives you the chance to try to unfreeze even as soon as you freeze! But the longer you wait the better your odds.

[Fuzzbucket]

Because the discussion has already happened, and the 1-year wait time proposed was the result of that. You're trying to re-start a discussion that has occurred, not start a brand new discussion on time limits.

 

The entire reason why this is even an issue at all is it was a compromise suggested between those who wanted unfreezing and those who thought of unfreezing as too unbalanced without serious restrictions. Also TJ said to make sure we address potential issues with it, and people using unfreezing to get around hatchling limits and unbalancing the trade market were two major reasons things like the year wait time and the insta-adult were proposed and eventually more or less agreed upon.

 

 

I'd not mind a failure rate for people who want to unfreeze early, with the rate being 100% successful once you hit the set date. I dislike the idea of a death penalty, but maybe along the lines of "you have to wait 24 hours to try to unfreeze again or it will always give you the fail message every time you try", or perhaps with a longer period? That gives you the chance to try to unfreeze even as soon as you freeze! But the longer you wait the better your odds.

Thanks for that, KageSora. You are spot on as usual with finding what was actually agreed !

[KageSora]

It's mostly that I remember either lurking or posting for a decent chunk of that discussion!

[Fuzzbucket]

It's mostly that I remember either lurking or posting for a decent chunk of that discussion!

I was there too, but never thought to dig up the past...

[KageSora]

In this case, I think it's important to understand the why of the proposed restrictions.

 

They're not just there because "haha let's make this convoluted and make you jump through hoops haha!"

 

Personally, I would be fine with unfreezing being instant--except, as the concerns raised earlier point out, that would unbalance the game. Balance in a game is an important feature--especially in a multi-player game. You can play DC solo, yeah! And a lot of us do. But there's ALWAYS that "how other people play impacts everything" factor, most visible in the ratios.

 

While it's sometimes fun to play a game that has a broken mechanic to exploit now and then--I'll be the first to admit it can be incredibly satisfying sometimes--overall games need to be more or less balanced to ensure the best chance at a fun, level playing field for the largest number of players. (Things like connection speed not accounting for since there's really nothing the game itself can do about individual factors like that or reflexes and stuff).

 

If there are concerns about how it would unbalance the game--and certain ones are very valid, I think (namely the trading ones--which is why we have to have scroll-bound hatchies or insta-adults, and why a wait period is good because adding limited dragons into the breeding pool for 2nd gens WILL have an impact no matter how you want to look at it) and they need to be addressed.

 

Especially since TJ himself said we need to. And if we refuse to address them, then if he decided to go ahead with this himself he would--and there's no guarantee however he opted to address it would be more likable than a user-suggested means of balancing the idea. (I mean, he can just do his own thing anyway--no guarantees as it is. But if we have some suggestions on limitations, he has ideas to work with that he can already see are at least somewhat agreed upon rather than just doing what he thinks is best and hoping people don't hate it)

[Fuzzbucket]

In this case, I think it's important to understand the why of the proposed restrictions.

 

They're not just there because "haha let's make this convoluted and make you jump through hoops haha!"

 

Personally, I would be fine with unfreezing being instant--except, as the concerns raised earlier point out, that would unbalance the game.  Balance in a game is an important feature--especially in a multi-player game.  You can play DC solo, yeah!  And a lot of us do.  But there's ALWAYS that "how other people play impacts everything" factor, most visible in the ratios.

 

While it's sometimes fun to play a game that has a broken mechanic to exploit now and then--I'll be the first to admit it can be incredibly satisfying sometimes--overall games need to be more or less balanced to ensure the best chance at a fun, level playing field for the largest number of players.  (Things like connection speed not accounting  for since there's really nothing the game itself can do about individual factors like that or reflexes and stuff).

 

If there are concerns about how it would unbalance the game--and certain ones are very valid, I think (namely the trading ones--which is why we have to have scroll-bound hatchies or insta-adults, and why a wait period is good because adding limited dragons into the breeding pool for 2nd gens WILL have an impact no matter how you want to look at it) and they need to be addressed.

 

Especially since TJ himself said we need to.  And if we refuse to address them, then if he decided to go ahead with this himself he would--and there's no guarantee however he opted to address it would be more likable than a user-suggested means of balancing the idea.  (I mean, he can just do his own thing anyway--no guarantees as it is.  But if we have some suggestions on limitations, he has ideas to work with that he can already see are at least somewhat agreed upon rather than just doing what he thinks is best and hoping people don't hate it)

Another excellent post. It may not seem important to those who think everything should happen NAOW because I WANNA - but balance does matter. Remember when there was an error with metals dropping in the cave - which led to a total dearth of CB metals for well over a year. And as for the time winters just - vanished...

 

Edited for rather awful typo oops...

Edited July 19, 2014 by fuzzbucket

[olympe]

I agree pretty much with everything KageSora and Fuzzbucket said. Yes, we've discussed limits to death. With a number of people if my memory is correct.

 

However, here's one thing I'd like to bring up for further discussion.

I still disagree because you are talking about a one lifetime event so I'll let TJ decide.

I think this action should be:

 

- Can be performed 10 times per 2 weeks.

- a frozen hatchie can be unfrozed after 90 days

 

and that's it. The players just got a nice new tool to play.

In the long run it will contribute to make the game more pleasant and attract more players.

 

Not that I agree on the limits proposed, but I think it's a pretty decent idea to add a limit for unfreezes that's significantly below the freezing limits, like maybe half that or less

 

Why?

 

Well, it's one more factor to discourage scroll-boosting through freezing-unfreezing. It doesn't hurt the original purpose of unfreezing, meaning the unfreezing of hatchlings that were frozen under different rules or as an error.

 

@danicast: I'd really like to know why you fight so hard to have unfreezing be a rather common action. What do you hope to achieve with it? Why do you consider it a "useful tool", if it's not too restricted?

[DragonLady86]

I agree pretty much with everything KageSora and Fuzzbucket said. Yes, we've discussed limits to death. With a number of people if my memory is correct.

 

However, here's one thing I'd like to bring up for further discussion.

I still disagree because you are talking about a one lifetime event so I'll let TJ decide.

I think this action should be:

 

- Can be performed 10 times per 2 weeks.

- a frozen hatchie can be unfrozed after 90 days

 

and that's it. The players just got a nice new tool to play.

In the long run it will contribute to make the game more pleasant and attract more players.

 

Not that I agree on the limits proposed, but I think it's a pretty decent idea to add a limit for unfreezes that's significantly below the freezing limits, like maybe half that or less

 

Why?

 

Well, it's one more factor to discourage scroll-boosting through freezing-unfreezing. It doesn't hurt the original purpose of unfreezing, meaning the unfreezing of hatchlings that were frozen under different rules or as an error.

 

@danicast: I'd really like to know why you fight so hard to have unfreezing be a rather common action. What do you hope to achieve with it? Why do you consider it a "useful tool", if it's not too restricted?

If we are having to wait a year to unfreeze and the hatchlings grow up instantly (or are locked to the scroll) do we really need more limits on it? With the hatchlings being around for a year, they are already counted on the scroll numbers. And no longer count for ratios.

 

Why should it be a general action? because freezing is a general action. Would I take it as a BSA? if that's the only way to get it. But I'd prefer a general action myself.

[HeatherMarie]

If there's a limit for unfreezing in the same way freezing has a limit, I think the proposed 10x/2weeks is WAY too high. I would support the limit in general, though, with tweaks.

[Andy12]

I like the freezing feature as it is; permanent.

This is because it gives people with the overloaded scrolls something to do.

Obviously I'm not at that stage yet, not even close, but still.

If they have a lot of one dragon, then they can start collecting hatchies of that breed.

It just makes DC more fun, in my opinion.

Plus, It helps out in RPs when you can only use dragons on your scroll.

That's my opinion on the matter.

 

EDIT: The unfreezing feature would be ok as well, with one condition.

You can only use it on a hatchling that has been frozen for X days.

And, as soon as it unfreezes their adult dragon total drops one.

It then gains one as the before mentioned "thawed" hatchie reaches adulthood.

Edited July 20, 2014 by Andy12

[olympe]

Well, having an unfreezing option doesn't devalue the collection of frozen hatchies. So where is it more fun to keep Freezing permanent?

[danicast]

@danicast: I'd really like to know why you fight so hard to have unfreezing be a rather common action. What do you hope to achieve with it? Why do you consider it a "useful tool", if it's not too restricted?

I would use to freeze more than I ever used so far (I have 24 hatchies frozen in 2 years) if there was a simple mechanism to unfreeze them in a reasonable time frame that doesn't conflict with the growing up time nor cause any troubles. That's why I think 90 days are enough, for someone who could think in use freeze as a way to have more dragons in a short period, 90 days is a disadvantage since eggs hatch in 4 days and hatchies grown in 4 days.

I don't use freeze very often because it's permanent and I prefer to have adult dragons in my scroll so I can breed them when I want. I mostly collect CBs, I have lineage only in special cases like prizes, avatars, dragons that is impossible to have CBs or really beautiful lines. But if we have an unfreeze tool that works as easily as freeze then I'd probably freeze more because I'd know that I could unfreeze that dragon at any minute after a CD period if I need that dragon. That's why I think it could be an useful tool and that's why a CD period of a year is a frustrating suggestion to me. Such a long CD period would make it useless, IMO.

I really don't know if I would be playing this game in a year, it depends of the dynamics of the game upgrades. Just collect dragons is very boring after the first year IMO. Lately what keeps me playing are the new releases. I already have all the dragons that I want.

Edited July 20, 2014 by danicast

[DragonLady86]

I like the freezing feature as it is; permanent.

This is because it gives people with the overloaded scrolls something to do.

Obviously I'm not at that stage yet, not even close, but still.

If they have a lot of one dragon, then they can start collecting hatchies of that breed.

It just makes DC more fun, in my opinion.

Plus, It helps out in RPs when you can only use dragons on your scroll.

That's my opinion on the matter.

 

EDIT: The unfreezing feature would be ok as well, with one condition.

You can only use it on a hatchling that has been frozen for X days.

And, as soon as it unfreezes their adult dragon total drops one.

It then gains one as the before mentioned "thawed" hatchie reaches adulthood.

This argument doesn't make sense to me. People don't collect frozen hatchlings because they have too many dragons, they collect them because we like the sprites. I have a hatchling army because I think the sprites are cute and never wanted more than 2 of any given adult. (I've changed that here and there to do so some personal lineages now that I'm running out of sprites left to collect for the "full set".)

 

Lots of things have changed before, that "were permanent": no official way to trade, 4 eggs OR 4 hatchlings for everyone, 1 cave, 2 holidays only, unbreed-able GON's, Zombies locked to the scroll,...etc. It's not really a reason. Change is good.

 

Whether we have lots of adults or hatchlings is a personal choice, if someone likes a dragon they may very well collect hundreds of them, whether they also freeze or not, is also a personal choice, but a separate choice.

 

I also do not understand the RP comment, the frozen hatchlings, even if unfrozen would still be on the same scroll...so, why is this a problem?

 

It's already been discussed that they have to be frozen for a length of time, general consensus being a year. adult total does not need to "go down" because they will instantly grow up. (or be locked to the scroll so still doesn't seem to matter IMO)

[MessengerDragon]

I just feel I need to say.

 

 

One of suggestions for why this would be useful was the example of being allowed more than two holidays, therefore wanting to freeze a higher gen instead of a CB.

 

One other thing suggested was that if a hatchling was frozen for more than a year, it couldn't be unfrozen anymore, to prevent high-price retired-dragon trading.

 

 

I don't see how these two fit together.

[DragonLady86]

I just feel I need to say.

 

 

One of suggestions for why this would be useful was the example of being allowed more than two holidays, therefore wanting to freeze a higher gen instead of a CB.

 

One other thing suggested was that if a hatchling was frozen for more than a year, it couldn't be unfrozen anymore, to prevent high-price retired-dragon trading.

 

 

I don't see how these two fit together.

The unfrozen will NOT be tradable. Either they will grow up instantly or be locked to the scroll until they do. (I, personally would prefer the former just to avoid all the help threads: why can't I trade my dragons?)

[HeatherMarie]

This argument doesn't make sense to me. People don't collect frozen hatchlings because they have too many dragons, they collect them because we like the sprites. I have a hatchling army because I think the sprites are cute and never wanted more than 2 of any given adult. (I've changed that here and there to do so some personal lineages now that I'm running out of sprites left to collect for the "full set".)

 

Lots of things have changed before, that "were permanent": no official way to trade, 4 eggs OR 4 hatchlings for everyone, 1 cave, 2 holidays only, unbreed-able GON's, Zombies locked to the scroll,...etc. It's not really a reason. Change is good.

 

Whether we have lots of adults or hatchlings is a personal choice, if someone likes a dragon they may very well collect hundreds of them, whether they also freeze or not, is also a personal choice, but a separate choice.

 

I also do not understand the RP comment, the frozen hatchlings, even if unfrozen would still be on the same scroll...so, why is this a problem?

 

It's already been discussed that they have to be frozen for a length of time, general consensus being a year. adult total does not need to "go down" because they will instantly grow up. (or be locked to the scroll so still doesn't seem to matter IMO)

Have to quote this because it nicely sums up a lot of things that I've been thinking!

[LibbyLishly]

I would use to freeze more than I ever used so far (I have 24 hatchies frozen in 2 years) if there was a simple mechanism to unfreeze them in a reasonable time frame that doesn't conflict with the growing up time nor cause any troubles. That's why I think 90 days are enough, for someone who could think in use freeze as a way to have more dragons in a short period, 90 days is a disadvantage since eggs hatch in 4 days and hatchies grown in 4 days.

I don't use freeze very often because it's permanent and I prefer to have adult dragons in my scroll so I can breed them when I want. I mostly collect CBs, I have lineage only in special cases like prizes, avatars, dragons that is impossible to have CBs or really beautiful lines. But if we have an unfreeze tool that works as easily as freeze then I'd probably freeze more because I'd know that I could unfreeze that dragon at any minute after a CD period if I need that dragon. That's why I think it could be an useful tool and that's why a CD period of a year is a frustrating suggestion to me. Such a long CD period would make it useless, IMO.

I really don't know if I would be playing this game in a year, it depends of the dynamics of the game upgrades. Just collect dragons is very boring after the first year IMO. Lately what keeps me playing are the new releases. I already have all the dragons that I want.

This is actually exactly why the time length was proposed: so that people won't use this as a way to catch and keep more dragons that previously and so get around the growth slot limits. So your reasoning for reducing that time frame is exactly what we are trying to avoid.

 

If you want ways to increase the slots, there are suggestions for that; if you want the game to make an intentional loophole, this isn't the thread for you. I recommend starting your own suggestion for that, because the intention of this unfreezing suggestion is to work within the existing limits, not make ways for people to wriggle out of them.

[KageSora]

It would partially defeat the purpose of adding this if anything frozen for over a year was ineligible for unfreezing, unless that year counted from the time when unfreezing became available.

 

One of the major reasons this has support is the change in holidays--there are many that are well over a year old that people would like to unfreeze now that the game has been altered. Therefore preventing them from doing so really defeats a strong reason behind the arguing for this.

 

Or it would prevent people from undoing past mistakes unless those mistakes were recent.

 

 

@Danicast--What you want to do is exactly one of the ideas that people who've been opposed to the addition of unfreezing were concerned about: (ab)using it to get around the limits fairly easily and with not terribly long waits. What you want to do with it is exactly the reason the year-long wait period was proposed to stop.

 

If the wait period is less than a year, I would only feel comfortable if the hatchlings were reset to 7 days, required extra stats to grow than a non-unfrozen one, and were scroll-bound.

[Mondat]

While I personally would not mind freezing staying permanent, I'd be fine with any kind of unfreezing method just for the sake of my friends who are older players and who used "Freeze" for 1 of their 2 CB holidays and for myself because I do not know what the future brings.

[Why should freezing be permanent?

This is just my adult way of thinking because I have to live with the decisions I make. We are warned that it would be permanent and players should have thought well about it. I could also bring up sayings like "unfreezing would be handholding", like other people like to bring up in other threads as well but maybe I shouldn't.

You breed although you're egg-locked => the eggs go to the AP, maybe you should have checked before breeding

You trade your dragons although you'd like to keep them somehow => the eggs go to another player, your problem now because you accepted the offer

You gift your dragons and see them getting killed => well, why give them away in first place?

You froze your dragon while it said it would be permanent? Hmm....

Of course one can say that things which were permanent in the past aren't permanent anymore. But this doesn't mean that everything should be reversible for the sake of players who regret their own decisions. I made some newbie decisions in another game which cost me much treasure and time in the end but I had to deal with it and learn from it, for example. Blah blah blah.]

 

HOWEVER I have to say that I do not like this particular suggestion very much, because of the limitations. I would only fully and completely support this if unfreezing worked like freezing, with the possibility of unfreezing hatchlings and letting them grow up on my scroll or trade them.

Why?

• I know a game where you can freeze/unfreeze/trade hatchlings/adults and it WORKS FINE. I was a newbie and could get old CB holiday adults (even for free), it was rather nice.
• I like to trade what I have on my own accord and for my prices/what I really want. I really do not care about what other people don't have on their scrolls and what they cannot afford. I do not understand the concern "Users will exploit this to trade rare or discontinued unfrozen hatchlings for exorbitant prices.", it shouldn't be other people's business what I trade my dragons for.

Edited July 20, 2014 by Mondat

[KageSora]

I'd just like to point out that unless whatever game you're talking about added in such a feature a number of years after the game began, then it's not necessarily a good example of "see it works!"

 

Adding in a change that has been present in another game for a proportionally larger span of the game's life (even if it's not from the starting point) can have massive side effects that are not present in the other game you know of.

[olympe]

HOWEVER I have to say that I do not like this particular suggestion very much, because of the limitations. I would only fully and completely support this if unfreezing worked like freezing, with the possibility of unfreezing hatchlings and letting them grow up on my scroll or trade them.

Why?

• I know a game where you can freeze/unfreeze/trade hatchlings/adults and it WORKS FINE. I was a newbie and could get old CB holiday adults (even for free), it was rather nice.
• I like to trade what I have on my own accord and for my prices/what I really want. I really do not care about what other people don't have on their scrolls and what they cannot afford. I do not understand the concern "Users will exploit this to trade rare or discontinued unfrozen hatchlings for exorbitant prices.", it shouldn't be other people's business what I trade my dragons for.

Yes, some other games might allow trading of adults and/or unfrozen hatchlings. However, we don't need to make DC like dozens other collectible games.

 

We already have quite a market for rare eggs, like 2nd gen prizes, and their prices are exorbitant already. Adding the option to collect "your" CB rares will only increase the prices and hurt the many players who hardly have a chance to catch CB rares now, as well as all the people who might want to trade for a 2nd gen prize. The only people benefitting from this are those who already can demand pretty much anything for the prizes they won due to sheer dumb luck (not counting the first prizes given out - and even there, a bit of luck was involved).

 

Also, we might get a market for CB frills or Old Pinks that shouldn't be there, not to mention old CB holidays. We can always collect 2nd and higher gens, but not CBs (unless we're incredibly lucky).

[LibbyLishly]

In addition, there is another suggestion for the trading of adults. This suggestion wouldn't have any bearing on that suggestion, so if you're interested in that, Mondat, I recommend tracking down that thread and showing your support there.

 

While you are right that it isn't anyone else's business what you make trades for as long as both parties are happy, the goal of unfreezing as it stands in this suggestion isn't to change the basic framework of the game, but to change one action with as few ripple effects as possible. That's why it matters if the hatchlings become tradeable upon unfreezing. If adults become tradeable, it would likely be a moot point, but for now, that's not the way the game works and not what we're seeking to change in this thread. Not saying it's wrong if you want to trade adults; just saying that this isn't the thread to argue for it.

 

As far as your arguments that you should have to live with the decisions you make - that's fine if you want to live that way, but why require everyone else to do the same? I refer you to the first post where I've linked to multiple arguments against that point of view. Also, there are suggestions in place asking to change, I believe, all of the other circumstances you brought up.

[Fuzzbucket]

This is actually exactly why the time length was proposed: so that people won't use this as a way to catch and keep more dragons that previously and so get around the growth slot limits. So your reasoning for reducing that time frame is exactly what we are trying to avoid.

 

If you want ways to increase the slots, there are suggestions for that; if you want the game to make an intentional loophole, this isn't the thread for you. I recommend starting your own suggestion for that, because the intention of this unfreezing suggestion is to work within the existing limits, not make ways for people to wriggle out of them.

Exactly. In effect you'd be using it to get around limits, secure in the knowledge that you could go back on the action at any time. That's EXACTLY why we need a long wait.

 

If the wait period is less than a year, I would only feel comfortable if the hatchlings were reset to 7 days, required extra stats to grow than a non-unfrozen one, and were scroll-bound.

This. But I feel VERY strongly about a year and insta-adults.

 

@ Messenger - where's the idea saying you can't unfreeze anything frozen for longer than a year ? I only recall the idea that it shouldn't be possible to freeze unless a hatchie HAS been frozen for more than a year.

[KageSora]

Additionally, about the "shouldn't change because you regret soemthing"

 

While in general that may be true, this was brought up very strongly after an already "set in stone" aspect of the game changed. Namely, the holiday dragons--that we were only EVER allowed to get 2 total of--are now unlimited as long as they're bred. This suggestion is strongly supported by a number of us to allow a second chance at a decision that was previously made under other rules that were believed to be permanent at that time.

 

With that change, it only seems fair to allow people to change a decision that was made under those rules.

 

And, it's also strongly supported because accidents happen--it's not always "oh man now I regret freezing that thing" it's "oh crap I was half asleep I froze the wrong one!".

[bbik]

...a player will be able to unfreeze only 10 hatchies per 2 weeks, just like freeze. I don't see how this can be abused, freeze is not abused in any way because it's restricted.

What you perhaps don't know, however, is that freeze did not used to be restricted, and (at least to TJ's mind) it was abused. Some people were freezing hatchlings by the hundreds every week (perhaps even every day, with trades and low-time AP eggs), and scrolls were growing much faster than intended. If an option for abuse is there, it will happen -- which is why unfreezing also needs restrictions.

 

Also, to address a couple different points...

However, here's one thing I'd like to bring up for further discussion.

I still disagree because you are talking about a one lifetime event so I'll let TJ decide.

I think this action should be:

 

- Can be performed 10 times per 2 weeks.

- a frozen hatchie can be unfrozed after 90 days

 

and that's it. The players just got a nice new tool to play.

In the long run it will contribute to make the game more pleasant and attract more players.

Not that I agree on the limits proposed, but I think it's a pretty decent idea to add a limit for unfreezes that's significantly below the freezing limits, like maybe half that or less

danicast: The freezing limit is not 10 per 2 weeks, regardless of whatever the help pages may say. It's 16 per two weeks for a gold trophy, and I believe 14/12 for silver/bronze, which would mean it may well be 10 for a trophy-less scroll -- but how many of those are there, really, where the owner would know or care about unfreezing? There's a big difference between 10 and 16, so we can't just use 10 as the number and ignore the higher trophy-based limits.

 

olympe: I think danicast was saying 10 unfreezes to match 10 freezes, rather than as a suggestion for a lower unfreeze limit, but I do think the lower limit could be an interesting idea. I don't know that it would be necessary with the one year wait already proposed, though; that seems like it might become overkill/overcomplicated. But if a shorter wait time were used instead, it would definitely be something worth considering!