Unfreezing

[HeatherMarie]

It would be easier, and less likely to cause confusion, if the unfrozen-hatchie grew up right away. Otherwise it's almost certain to cause a *lot* of help-topics asking why the hatchie still have 4 days (or whatever) to grow up, why the hatchie is still growing but they can't trade it, etc.

 

The *only* reason that I've seen put forth for making hatchies take up a slot and have to be cared for again, is for anti-abuse measures. But this suggestion already *has* *plenty* of anti-abuse measures, including limits on what type of frozens you can unfreeze (ie, how long it's been frozen) and how often. I don't see reason to make this suggestion SO complicated that it stops being useful.

[LibbyLishly]

It seems to me that the most common opinion of the supporters has been that unfreezing should:

1. Be unavailable for at least six months to a year (the year being more popular, I believe) after the hatchling is initially frozen.

2. Once used after that time period has passed, allow the hatchling to grow up right away.

 

These two in conjunction would prevent any kind of real abuse, and would avoid the confusion that Marie points out. If there are no arguments against that, I'll try to update the top post to reflect that in about a week.

 

In RE: the mass unfreezings, what's been proposed (and is outlined in the OP) is a scroll-wide cooldown on the action for about a month after each use, again negating the need for unfreezing to take up a slot.

[Fuzzbucket]

It seems to me that the most common opinion of the supporters has been that unfreezing should:

1. Be unavailable for at least six months to a year (the year being more popular, I believe) after the hatchling is initially frozen.

2. Once used after that time period has passed, allow the hatchling to grow up right away.

 

These two in conjunction would prevent any kind of real abuse, and would avoid the confusion that Marie points out. If there are no arguments against that, I'll try to update the top post to reflect that in about a week.

 

In RE: the mass unfreezings, what's been proposed (and is outlined in the OP) is a scroll-wide cooldown on the action for about a month after each use, again negating the need for unfreezing to take up a slot.

A year, please.

[xeyla]

A year, please.

I agree with Fuzz. I think a year is perfect, and I would want mine to become an adult as soon as I unfreeze it. I have a CB S2 Rosebud I froze because I loved the little sprite, and I wanted one on my scroll. I never thought the limits would be lifted, which is why I froze her.

[caya]

I agree with Fuzz. I think a year is perfect, and I would want mine to become an adult as soon as I unfreeze it. I have a CB S2 Rosebud I froze because I loved the little sprite, and I wanted one on my scroll. I never thought the limits would be lifted, which is why I froze her.

/signed

 

Exactly the reason why I froze each of one of my CB sprites each holiday. ^^; I wanted to see the hatchling sprite forever, not just in the wiki or on banners.

 

To be honest, it'd be perfectly fine for me to get all those limitations with only being able to unfreeze once and only after a year. I only want to have one chance and I can live with almost everything if I get it.

 

If we get a failing option then it would practically be useless. I only have one CB holiday hatchie that I froze, so if it fails... well...

It'd only be "useful" for normal dragons, which can easily obtained again, but not for my situation or if somebody has a special lineage.

Edited February 9, 2014 by caya

[angelicdragonpuppy]

The *only* reason that I've seen put forth for making hatchies take up a slot and have to be cared for again, is for anti-abuse measures. But this suggestion already *has* *plenty* of anti-abuse measures, including limits on what type of frozens you can unfreeze (ie, how long it's been frozen) and how often. I don't see reason to make this suggestion SO complicated that it stops being useful.

I have seen one other reason: some people want to convert S1s to S2s. Perhaps in that case, unfrozen S1s could simply bump up to S2s, and would have to be unfrozen again next month to reach adulthood. Would be a little slower, but would allow everyone to have their way.

 

(Though I believe there was once a page that did this all on its own, based on views, so maybe that could be reinstated again instead?)

[cyradis4]

It seems to me that the most common opinion of the supporters has been that unfreezing should:

1. Be unavailable for at least six months to a year (the year being more popular, I believe) after the hatchling is initially frozen.

2. Once used after that time period has passed, allow the hatchling to grow up right away.

 

These two in conjunction would prevent any kind of real abuse, and would avoid the confusion that Marie points out. If there are no arguments against that, I'll try to update the top post to reflect that in about a week.

 

In RE: the mass unfreezings, what's been proposed (and is outlined in the OP) is a scroll-wide cooldown on the action for about a month after each use, again negating the need for unfreezing to take up a slot.

Support as written. I too am fond of the 365 day wait after freezing.

 

Cheers!

C4.

Edited February 9, 2014 by cyradis4

[Fuzzbucket]

I have seen one other reason: some people want to convert S1s to S2s. Perhaps in that case, unfrozen S1s could simply bump up to S2s, and would have to be unfrozen again next month to reach adulthood. Would be a little slower, but would allow everyone to have their way.

 

(Though I believe there was once a page that did this all on its own, based on views, so maybe that could be reinstated again instead?)

Actually I think that request was from me; it was frivolous and what I wanted was to go the other way - I am peeved that BOTH my frill hatchies managed to gender; I wanted one of each. But I didn't seriously expect... I was just throwing it in as so many other strange ideas were showing up !

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Actually I think that request was from me; it was frivolous and what I wanted was to go the other way - I am peeved that BOTH my frill hatchies managed to gender; I wanted one of each. But I didn't seriously expect... I was just throwing it in as so many other strange ideas were showing up !

Nah, there was at least one other person who mentioned the S1 -> S2 thing. I don't know if this suggestion can cover the reverse, but I'd at least like to make sure it covers everyone who wants their dragon to age forward (unless, again, an alternative way to do S1 to S2 was implemented).

 

[cyradis4]

Nah, there was at least one other person who mentioned the S1 -> S2 thing. I don't know if this suggestion can cover the reverse, but I'd at least like to make sure it covers everyone who wants their dragon to age forward (unless, again, an alternative way to do S1 to S2 was implemented).

At this point, the only dragons you can't get another of (and freeze them at S2) are the retired breeds, of which there are only two. I think, if you release a GoN, you can start to try to summon a replacement?

 

Given that, I feel that having dragons insta-adult (and avoiding the various issues having them return to hatchies present, as well as the additional restrictions which are a moot point for an adult) far outweighs benefit of letting people go from S1 to S2 on the two breeds that can't be replaced. Or even three breeds.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[RainDear]

At this point, the only dragons you can't get another of (and freeze them at S2) are the retired breeds, of which there are only two. I think, if you release a GoN, you can start to try to summon a replacement?

 

Given that, I feel that having dragons insta-adult (and avoiding the various issues having them return to hatchies present, as well as the additional restrictions which are a moot point for an adult) far outweighs benefit of letting people go from S1 to S2 on the two breeds that can't be replaced. Or even three breeds.

 

Cheers!

C4.

I agree with cyradis4 on this point.

[bbik]

What about those who want an S2 to revert to S1 ?

 

*do want*

...there should be a failure rate...

Here's another crazy idea, merging those two desires (and again, it's probably overcomplicated, but more people have mentioned the multi-step unfreezing idea since I first brought it up, so heck, may as well see what comes of this, too!).

 

Let's say there could be multiple outcomes of an unfreeze attempt (all instant, no timers of view-collecting involved):

* Adulthood

* Gendering

* Ungendering

* No change

 

The theory behind ungendering (or really, any of the non-adult options) would be this:

All dragons are supposed to have some amount/type of magic. Perhaps some hatchlings, after having been frozen in youth for so long, decide they like being hatchlings ("I don't want to grow up, I'm a Toys R Us Dragon Cave kid"), so they do the typical childhood thing and make some mischief, which causes the unfreeze magic to get twisted and revert the hatchling into an even younger one.

Or for the other non-adult outcomes, the mischief isn't enough to revert, but it could still prevent (full) growth. Or the unfreeze magic just wasn't done right.

 

Unfreezing would remain an option (after the scroll-wide cooldown ends) for as long as the dragon is still a hatchling. Once it has become an adult, that's the end of it.

 

Potentially, S1 > S2 could be limited to if the dragon has enough views, since even before S1 freezing was official, dragons could be given few enough views that they would never gender. Any dragon should be able to revert to S1, though, since now the views don't matter for staying S1. But I'm not sure if adding a restriction like that would really be worth it, since then it'd conflict with becoming an adult, too -- if there aren't enough views to gender, there certainly aren't enough to grow to adulthood -- but at least if there were a restriction like that, not gendering could be put down to random chance, rather than requiring a lengthy explanation in a help thread.

[Fuzzbucket]

I think this would neatly be covered by the spell suggestion. The available spells could include "ungender frozen hatchling" (or even any hatchling; you could use it to undo a dud influence !) as well as all the other suggestions.

 

http://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showtopic=158776

[LibbyLishly]

...there should be a failure rate...

Here's another crazy idea, merging those two desires (and again, it's probably overcomplicated, but more people have mentioned the multi-step unfreezing idea since I first brought it up, so heck, may as well see what comes of this, too!).

 

Let's say there could be multiple outcomes of an unfreeze attempt (all instant, no timers of view-collecting involved):

* Adulthood

* Gendering

* Ungendering

* No change

 

The theory behind ungendering (or really, any of the non-adult options) would be this:

All dragons are supposed to have some amount/type of magic. Perhaps some hatchlings, after having been frozen in youth for so long, decide they like being hatchlings ("I don't want to grow up, I'm a Toys R Us Dragon Cave kid"), so they do the typical childhood thing and make some mischief, which causes the unfreeze magic to get twisted and revert the hatchling into an even younger one.

Or for the other non-adult outcomes, the mischief isn't enough to revert, but it could still prevent (full) growth. Or the unfreeze magic just wasn't done right.

 

Unfreezing would remain an option (after the scroll-wide cooldown ends) for as long as the dragon is still a hatchling. Once it has become an adult, that's the end of it.

 

Potentially, S1 > S2 could be limited to if the dragon has enough views, since even before S1 freezing was official, dragons could be given few enough views that they would never gender. Any dragon should be able to revert to S1, though, since now the views don't matter for staying S1. But I'm not sure if adding a restriction like that would really be worth it, since then it'd conflict with becoming an adult, too -- if there aren't enough views to gender, there certainly aren't enough to grow to adulthood -- but at least if there were a restriction like that, not gendering could be put down to random chance, rather than requiring a lengthy explanation in a help thread.

You know, bbik, this idea of moving a hatchling from one stage to another is potentially intricate enough that I wonder if it should be a suggestion all its own. Maybe it wouldn't be 'Unfreeze' - maybe it would be 'Adjust Age' or 'Age Magic' or something like that. And from there, maybe the chances of a frozen hatchling shifting either back a stage or forward a stage would be where the fail rate came in. I'd leave out the potential for it to become an adult, to make sure it's distinct from the Unfreeze idea (at least in its now-refined stage).

 

I do agree with Fuzz that it would be a great addition to the Spell Scrolls idea, too.

[cyradis4]

I think this would neatly be covered by the spell suggestion. The available spells could include "ungender frozen hatchling" (or even any hatchling; you could use it to undo a dud influence !) as well as all the other suggestions.

 

http://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showtopic=158776

This, I like. Really like.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[LibbyLishly]

Top post updated! The refined suggestion is at the beginning after the red text. I've retained a summary of all the rest of the ideas that have been tossed around at the end.

[Bex]

Normally I would be just another person stating that "freezing should be permanent!" Everyone who has frozen a hatchie was warned fair-and-square before they did it that it wouldn't be able to be undone.

 

But that was until the breed limit was lifted for holidays. (Which is a change I am not a fan of btw.)

 

The people who froze their holiday hatchies in the past never thought that one of the rules of the game would change. They thought that freezing their hatchies then would be the only chance they would ever have to get that frozen hatchie on their scroll.

 

Now that one rule has changed, I think it's only fair to make a change for the people who were playing based on the old rules.

 

I think the first post addresses all the tweaking that needs to be addressed to avoid un-freezing to be exploited. Restrict it so that it can't be used to trade frozen hatchies at the very least.

 

For the record, this change would not affect me in any way since I have no frozen hatchies I wish to unfreeze, but I am lucky that during the past holidays I chose to let my holiday dragons grow up and sacrificed the option to have them as frozen hatchies. But I can only imagine how disappointed and frustrated I would be now had I chosen the other route all those YEARS ago.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

But that was until the breed limit was lifted for holidays. (Which is a change I am not a fan of btw.)

You're not a fan of it, yet you collected extra Christmas and Valentines dragons? lD;;

 

But yah, having the rules changed was a bummer for that reason (and that reason alone, IMO--I love the lifted limits). I've had way more fun on DC this Christmas and Valentine's Day than on any other, because it's so fun gifting and swapping and hunting. But at the same time having only one of each Holiday as an adult while many were going around with two was a real bummer--there were lots of times I really wanted to help someone (or help my own lineages, haha) and I couldn't because my one Holiday had already been bred.

[Millie_Azure]

Concern: The player made a choice when s/he froze that hatchling, and they should have to live with those consequences.

 

This concern is the main reason I have against making freezing undoable, and nothing I read in the responses to this concern convinced me otherwise. Yes, I know it's just a game, but thousands of hatchlings were frozen under the premise that freezing would be permanent. To change that now would, in my opinion, damage the integrity of the game itself. Once one rule changes and bends, why not scrutinize the entire list of limiting rules and see what else we can reverse? Freezing being permanent got reversed, why can't _____ be reversed, too?

 

Again, I know it's just a game, but I like that certain limitations force you to make certain choices. I think of it kind of like the stock market. A company's stock tanks so you sell off all your stock. Three months later, the stock soars to an all-time high. You aren't going to be able to magically get that stock back. It's gone for good, regardless of what exterior circumstances (value of the stock) changed. No, you never would have sold the stock had it been that high, just like you never would have frozen the dragon had you thought (with pinks and frills) they'd disappear or (with holidays) that limits would be lifted. But that's the fun of being forced to make a permanent choice. You never know what's going to happen. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. It's a gamble you agreed to take by pressing the freeze button to begin with.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

To change that now would, in my opinion, damage the integrity of the game itself. Once one rule changes and bends, why not scrutinize the entire list of limiting rules and see what else we can reverse? Freezing being permanent got reversed, why can't _____ be reversed, too?

Rules that have been changed (presumably without destroying the game):

 

- Limited Holidays: We were told we could only ever have two of each Christmas / Valentine breed, which is why many chose to freeze one from the original release in the first place. Surprise!

 

- Names: We were once told these were permanent too. Did that stay? Nope. Did it make everyone want to change every last other set in stone aspect of the game? Nope.

 

- Zombies: These once permanently took up a kill slot. That stopped. They also once couldn't be removed from your scroll. This has changed too.

 

- Limits: Egg limits used to be much smaller (well, for current trophy holders, at least), and there used to be one slot reserved solely for bred eggs. These things, too, have changed.

 

- Teleport: Trading used to be do at your own risk. Not anymore!

 

Not all of those suggestions are 100% comparable (some said they were permanent, others were just assumed to be), but they're still all good examples of things that once were "set in stone" and have since changed--and done a lot more good than harm in the process. Accordingly I don't think allowing unfreezing is going to unleash a flood of "let's change all these other things too because this one thing was changed," or "damage the integrity of the game."

 

As the suggestion has been hashed out, it would be hard, and likely unprofitable, to abuse. It would make a number of players happy. It would have indirect benefits through unleashing more Holidays into the cave. So what's to lose? A stuffy old rule that never made that much sense anyway? (I mean, really, what two-bit wizard casts a spell they can't undo?)

Edited February 17, 2014 by angelicdragonpuppy

[HeatherMarie]

I'm not even going to say it all 'cause angelicdragonpuppy said it just fine.

 

The "made a choice live with it" argument sounds all fine and good until you realize that DC already has a history of *changing rules/limits*, and no it has not broken the game.

[Bex]

You're not a fan of it, yet you collected extra Christmas and Valentines dragons? lD;;

I'm not sure why you felt the need to point that out? Perhaps you are trying to imply that I am a hypocrite or something? Just because I am not a fan of the rule change doesn't mean I can't take advantage of it. I preferred DC back when code-catching was still possible, but it's not like I refuse to use the Teleports now. By that logic, if anything about DC annoyed me I might as well just quit.

 

The only reason I even mentioned that I was against the lifting of the breed limits and don't own any frozen hatchies I now wish to unfreeze was to show that even people like me who wouldn't even be affected by a rule change are still willing to speak up in support of those who really want to see it changed. :/

Edited February 17, 2014 by Drache

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Just seems odd to say you don't like something and then use it. I could see using teleport since code catching can't exist any more, but if for whatever reason you dislike the extra Holidays why bother with them? If it was just trade fodder you needn't have kept any... but now I'm getting off topic. /probably a tad overly enthusiastic about raised limits OTL

 

In more related news, a "scroll spell" suggestion has recently come up that has some ties to unfreezing. I was originally doubtful, but after seeing TJ's ideas about it it's become more appealing. Maybe that could provide an alternative means for this (and, perhaps more temptingly, also provide ways to revert to S1 or move S1 to S2, which would be rather clunky to work into this idea)

 

 

[Bex]

Just seems odd to say you don't like something and then use it. I could see using teleport since code catching can't exist any more, but if for whatever reason you dislike the extra Holidays why bother with them? If it was just trade fodder you needn't have kept any... but now I'm getting off topic. /probably a tad overly enthusiastic about raised limits OTL

You pretty much answered your own question there. I really don't think it sounds any odder to collect more holidays even though I'd prefer for them to still be limited than it does for people who really don't like the prize dragons to collect them to use as trade fodder in order to obtain the dragons they DO like. What I find odd is that it seems to be such a big deal to you. It's not as though I suggested that the change be un-made or something.

 

For those who are against unfreezing, I have yet to see a reason why unfreezing shouldn't happen that hasn't been addressed by the first post. No one who has frozens that they wish to keep would be affected.

[Ashes The Second]

I think the main reason I'm against this would be that I used to collect frozen hatchies, and the fact that you could just unfreeze them... it feels like all the hard work and all the deliberate choices I made went to waste, really. I know I don't have to unfreeze them or see the feature, but... again, what about those who do unfreeze dragons? What percentage will? What will that o to ratios? (any dragon, no matter how insignificant it may seem, is one more being added to the ratio issue). <--- beating that horse into the ground, but it really hasn't been addressed.