ANSWERED:Raffle Rethink?

[Anna Selka]

I didn't really like the contest system, I much prefer a raffle. I am also glad of the recipes for tickets thing, it will probably help a lot to avoid newbies getting one and leaving a week later.

 

I also agree with those that said 100 or 200 sounds more appropriate to the size of the user base. It's still very little, and they will be sought after.

[TheGrox]

I like how there were thoughts of excluding former winners because Prize Dragons are cash machines and then insisting of keeping Prize dragons rare because winners want to cash in. Shows what parts of this whole thread are about: How to heighten chances for some to win and how to ensure that winning is actually cashing in. So, cashing in is okay when winning oneself, but disgusting that former winners did it.

 

Obviously, having something only a miniscule percentage of players will ever be able to obtain (a CB Prize Dragon) is not enough as a prize. The Prize itself is not the prize, but what you can do with the prize. I can only imagine that winners would complain more about unbreedable Prize Dragons then the other users who could not get offspring.

I don't understand your logic in the first paragraph there, and you seem to be taking all the posts from different viewpoints as if they are some sort of overall opinion of everyone.

 

As to the second part, everyone would be outraged that they couldn't get an offspring of an unbreedable prize. I wouldn't be outraged if I won an unbreedable, it's still a prize, but everyone else would be outraged they could never get one.

[Fuzzbucket]

I don't understand your logic in the first paragraph there, and you seem to be taking all the posts from different viewpoints as if they are some sort of overall opinion of everyone.

 

As to the second part, everyone would be outraged that they couldn't get an offspring of an unbreedable prize. I wouldn't be outraged if I won an unbreedable, it's still a prize, but everyone else would be outraged they could never get one.

I think Rally Vincent was being sarcastic. I can't say I blame him. This thread has got illogical at times, with some people saying both that it is unfair because people don't breed, then that they would not breed, then that there should be ever so few special dragons so that they can use them as trade fodder, and then that we need more prizes so that they have a better chance but only if those prizes are only for people who have been here for ages...

 

Very tiring.

 

But yes PLEASE raffles, rather than "contests" with subjective judging. Contests with absolute answers - fair enough - like math - but then that can be unfair to EFL players, so no.... (there was discussion of a writing contest once - but imagine being one of those people here, keen players, who have to use googletranslate to post at all....)

[TheGrox]

I agree that something like a writing contest would be unfair on non-english speakers, but something like decorating isn't that unfair.

Edited January 9, 2013 by SockPuppet Strangler

[Rally Vincent]

Spam removed. Edited January 9, 2013 by SockPuppet Strangler

[olympe]

The fewer the amount of prizes, the longer it takes to jack up the ratios.

The difference is negligible.

 

For the 2010 Tree Decorating Contest, 31 tinsels were given out - 5 gold, 10 silver plus Penk, and 15 bronze.

 

At first, all tinsels had a 99% breeding success rate, and almost all of them bred, well, more tinsels. Let's round that up to 100, because that's what happened.

 

Release: 30 tinsel dragons.

One week later: 60 tinsel dragons.

Two weeks later: 120 tinsel dragons. Well, maybe 108.

Three weeks later: 216 tinsel dragons. Okay, maybe 194.

Four weeks later: 388 tinsel dragons. Let's say 350.

Five weeks later: 700 - maybe 630 tinsel dragons.

 

 

So, starting with 500 instead of 30 prize dragons will only accelerate population growth by five weeks. Which means that the ratios will be "jacked up" five weeks earlier than with the tinsels. Big difference, considering they bred like rabbits the first year.

[KageSora]

I agree that something like a writing contest would be unfair on non-english speakers, but something like decorating isn't that unfair.

Actually, it's highly unfair. What one person considers a good design using decorations another person will not enjoy at all.

 

I can guaranteed that even if my brother hadn't screwed my tree up, I would have had zero chance of winning the decorating contest because my idea of what looks good is definitely not what other people think looks good.

 

And what, then, is the point of bothering to decorate something if you have to make something you hate to cater to the tastes of the masses to try to win something you probably won't get anyway?

 

Art is subjective, good art even more so--as somebody else said (can't remember who) in this thread.

[TheGrox]

But a decorating contest is at least accessible to everyone, regardless of language barriers or whatever, that is what I was really saying.

 

Also, I draw your attention to Grishiu's post. Has everyone read that, because I don't see many arguments against it.

Edited January 1, 2013 by TheGrox

[Saloiq]

As others have brought up, the recipe raffle isn't very accessible to non-forum users, or even everyone who didn't have a link to the recipe spreadsheet. I agree that a decorating contest would be more accessible. (Not going to comment on "fairness".)

[olympe]

So was the "12 days of Christmas" even in 2011 and this Christmas season's cooking event. In 2011, all you had to understand is that you had to click on the book and open the newest story, and this time, you needed to find and prepare recipies. Both feats could easily be done with google translate or any other translating feature.

 

That being said, any kind of contest that involves any kind of skill is unfair because everybody has a different amount of skill to perform the task. A raffle is sheer dumb luck.

[Fuzzbucket]

Actually, it's highly unfair.  What one person considers a good design using decorations another person will not enjoy at all.

 

I can guaranteed that even if my brother hadn't screwed my tree up, I would have had zero chance of winning the decorating contest because my idea of what looks good is definitely not what other people think looks good.

 

And what, then, is the point of bothering to decorate something if you have to make something you hate to cater to the tastes of the masses to try to win something you probably won't get anyway?

 

Art is subjective, good art even more so--as somebody else said (can't remember who) in this thread.

Absolutely. I didn't say that, but whoever did was spot on. It would be one thing (though I would hate it) if an art contest here were to be judged by an art critic known to NONE of us - but without that it would be TOTALLY unfair - as the trees were, with people voting at random to make them go away, deliberately voting blank trees at 10, and begging for votes. That isn't a contest; that's mayhem and pretty pointless.

 

Yes a decorating contest is accessible to all - but taste is totally subjective, even without all that voting silliness. I LOATHED most of the trees that won, to be perfectly honest. I knew mine wouldn't as it had no dragons, no tributes to TJ, I knew almost no-one here who would look out for mine anyway - and I didn't beg for votes. That was how it was. It was - unpleasant.

 

The skill of the recipes was MUCH fairer.

Edited January 1, 2013 by fuzzbucket

[TheGrox]

That being said, any kind of contest that involves any kind of skill is unfair because everybody has a different amount of skill to perform the task. A raffle is sheer dumb luck.

I prefer a contest to be skill based. Pretty much the whole of DC is skill based - it's hard to get rares if you don't have a certain amount of skill. Life is skill based, better skills = better job. Better skills should be rewarded.

[Fuzzbucket]

Spam removed. Edited January 9, 2013 by SockPuppet Strangler

[whitebaron]

As others have brought up, the recipe raffle isn't very accessible to non-forum users, or even everyone who didn't have a link to the recipe spreadsheet. I agree that a decorating contest would be more accessible. (Not going to comment on "fairness".)

i beg to differ:

i like playing the original game this was based on, and as such, i only needed help for 3 recipes.

some ingredients might be messed up to how you really do it, or how you do it in your part of the world - but none are totally unrealisitic.

 

 

as for skill-based contests: i could not disagree more, if the skill is to be judged by other users. Usually not those win who have the best piece of art, but those with the largest social network around them.

[Rally Vincent]

So, now let's look at the new release. How will it affect the economy?

This is what I do not like as an approach for a discussion about the number of Prizes. Why should the economy be the sole basis for a decision? Why should the economy take precedence over availability and number of CB Dragons? I give a rat's behind about economy, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. If you want to persuade the users who are like me, don't take the economy as premise for a decision, but weigh in other factors as well.

 

I'd like for more users to be able to a CB version. Lineaged is lineaged, regardless of generation. Many players prefer CB dragons; why should their needs be left out?

Edited January 1, 2013 by Rally Vincent

[siliconrose]

Until I get a skill-based contest that I can compete in, I don't want skill-based contests. I'm a writer. It's never going to happen.

 

Oh, I'm a programmer too. Anyone want to compete on problems completed from Project Euler with me? Or TJ can propose some programming task for us to complete, and anyone that completes it gets an entry. I'd be up for that.

 

Anyways, decorating a Christmas tree is seen as something that "anyone" can do, but it's really not. If you're judging it based on skill, then artists just flat out have a leg up, even with the reduced palette given by the set of ornaments. And what about the blind or the colorblind?

[KageSora]

I don't want a contest again--raffle is best. Honestly, I hate most contests. Sure, they require skill, and that's nice--provided everybody entering has a similar level of skill.

 

With a contest that has people ranging from kids who just like pretty dragons to people who may have professional training, it's just not a fair playing field. That's why I detest contests that don't have a bracket for people who can be reasonably assumed to have similar levels of skill as opposed to having insanely different skill levels.

[HeatherMarie]

I agree with the tree-decorating-was-unfair crowd. Some people posted pictures of their trees everywhere and begged for votes, some people got mad and deliberately voted "good" trees down, it was a mess, and not fair in the LEAST. And like someone else said, tree decorating is completely subjective. IRL, me and my mom decorate our tree completely in blue, in celebration of my deceased grandmother. To most, it would look like a dull, boring tree. To us, it looks magical.

 

I don't think ANY contest, especially contests that require USERS to vote, is going to be very fair.

 

I like a more neutral raffle, like the reading Christmas stories, or the cooking. Sure, forum members might have had an "advantage" with the cooking because of that spreadsheet being linked around, but there were plenty of us who didn't look at that thing and instead did it the "hard" way.

[sheppardkid]

I don't ever want another contest like the tree-decorating again. As many have stated, there is no fairness to it. Any contest that is based on skill will not be fair, in my opinion. My skills are vastly different from TheGrox's skills, which are vastly different from fuzzbucket's skills, which are vastly different from KageSora's skill, etc. etc. (not picking on you guys, y'all are just among the most vocal in the thread). There may be groups of people who share the same skill levels, but that leaves everyone else who are not at that level with a disadvantage. I've said before that the raffle seems to be the fairer way of giving out prizes and I stick by that.

[Slaskia]

A skill based contest would exclude even more people than what have now. Not everyone is a good artist, writer, etc...or even an English speaker.

 

Again, Art is subjective (yes it was me that said that), which is why I hated the tree decorating contest. Not because I lack artistic talent (far from it), but because my tastes are different from everyone else (I favored silver themed traditionally decorated trees above everything else, for instance).

 

This is an exclusive dragon being given out here. All active users deserve an equal chance to win one, not just whomever has the most 'friends' or knows how to 'beg' for people to vote their tree the highest score.

[TheGrox]

The difference is negligible.

 

For the 2010 Tree Decorating Contest, 31 tinsels were given out - 5 gold, 10 silver plus Penk, and 15 bronze.

 

At first, all tinsels had a 99% breeding success rate, and almost all of them bred, well, more tinsels. Let's round that up to 100, because that's what happened.

 

Release: 30 tinsel dragons.

One week later: 60 tinsel dragons.

Two weeks later: 120 tinsel dragons. Well, maybe 108.

Three weeks later: 216 tinsel dragons. Okay, maybe 194.

Four weeks later: 388 tinsel dragons. Let's say 350.

Five weeks later: 700 - maybe 630 tinsel dragons.

 

 

So, starting with 500 instead of 30 prize dragons will only accelerate population growth by five weeks. Which means that the ratios will be "jacked up" five weeks earlier than with the tinsels. Big difference, considering they bred like rabbits the first year.

But wait, you were supporting multiclutches, yes? Think about it again.

 

500 Tinsels to begin, but say they on avarage breed 3 per clutch. In 1 week, that's 2000 Prizes. Week 2, 8000. Week 3, 32000. Week 4, 128000. And so on.

 

With the proposed multiclutch suggestion, EVERY active member (according to TJ's statistics that's "over 40000") would have an average of THREE 2nd-4th gen Tinsels within 4 weeks. Nearly every member could have a 3rd gen. The market would be saturated in no time.

 

Of course, my calculations make the assumption, as olympe's do, that they have a 100% success rate to start with, as in previous years. This would definitely make prizes a hell of a lot more common than even Tinsels were. Something I definitely do not want.

Edited January 1, 2013 by TheGrox

[DarkEternity]

That's assuming you support an increased initial number of tinsels which I don't. Multiclutches will guarantee that a percentage will go to non-forum users. The market will be more saturated (more eggs per breeding) but less saturated than what will happen if you increase the CBs available (more friends/forumers obtain eggs and suddenly they all attempt to trade offspring). If you only increase the CBs, I expect that quite a percentage will be forum users trying to trade off low gens and the market will be supersaturated in no time at all. Multiclutches with the same number of starting prozes as previous years will bleed off the effects of market saturation while distributing dragons to players outside forum circles. However, 2nd gens will most definitely retain value if multiclutches are put into place because the only reliable way of obtaining them is from the owners. If you increase owners on the other hand but don't expand clutches, supply will exceed demand and your highly valuable CBs will bite the dust.

 

This is my reasoning.

 

I only support EITHER multiclutches or increased prizewinners, if you have both there will be an egg apocalypse.

Edited January 1, 2013 by DarkEternity

[TheGrox]

I only support EITHER multiclutches or increased prizewinners, if you have both there will be an egg apocalypse.

I certainly agree, we definitely cannot have both. But I'm sure olympe was in support of multiclutches before, and is in support of increased prizes too :/.

 

Anyway, I can't say I'm in favour of either, but if I had to compromise I would only want a slight increase in prizes (no more than 100) OR a slight chance of multiclutching (maybe only 20% chance?).

Edited January 1, 2013 by TheGrox

[fuzzzzj]

I would not like to see multiclutches from these type of prize dragons. I think that this might accalerate the population faster than just adding more prizes. At least you would only get 1 egg from each prize dragon at a time rather than 2 or more from a smaller base. The smaller pool with multiclutches would eventually outpace the larger pool with only one egg at a time (probably). But then again, I may be wrong.

 

...there will be an egg apocalypse.

^This describes what would happen if both options were implented.

 

As for contests....

I feel that we should never do something like the tree decorating contest. I didn't know about this site yet, but from what people are saying it sounds awful. I think stuff like the cooking is perfect.

 

Edit: By the way TheGrox I remember you saying something about a poll, I'd like a poll.

Edited January 2, 2013 by fuzzzzj

[TheGrox]

I do wish people would stop calling me TheGrox and just call me Grox /random

 

Anyway, a poll you say? A poll on what though? There are so many ideas flying around this thread... I guess you mean a poll on multiclutching or increasing the number of prizes? Maybe like so:

 

Poll: Should we increase prizes given out?

- Yes, a large increase - up to 500 prizes.

- Yes, a small increase, about 100 prizes.

- Yes, an increase based on a proportion of entries.

- Yes, an increase AND make prizes multiclutch.

- No, just make prizes multiclutch.

- No, don't make any changes.

- No, get rid of prizes altogether, just keep HM prizes.

- No, get rid of the raffle altogether.

 

Any changes before I add the poll?

Edited January 2, 2013 by TheGrox