ANSWERED:Raffle Rethink?

[TheGrox]

I clicked 'Yes, an increase based on a proportion of entries' but I am also in favour of multi-clutching them. But since the 'Yes, an increase AND make prizes multiclutch' option did not specify an increase based on proportions, I chose the former.

/clarify

Someone could have pointed that out before I put the poll up . Though it's not too much of an issue I guess, given by the posts in this thread, people are very vocal about this and will post if they have a similar opinion to Whispers. The poll is just to give a general consensus of people's opinion, is all.

 

I sort of didn't want it to get confusing with toooooo many options, although I could have apparently added up to 30 options - that would have been one hell of a poll o_o

 

 

What makes me change my mind about multichlutching is the argument that it would be unfair for Prizes while all other dragons can only produce one egg.

Yes, I agree, I can't see how it would fit in with everything else - Holiday dragons multiclutch in the holidays because they are limited to breeding at that time, and a lot of holidays are about the spirit of gifting. Prizes can breed all year round (well, Tinsels could at any rate).

 

The only way I could see multiclutching working on the site as a whole is if it were based around the fertility BSA, as I think TJ suggested in another thread. But that's a whole different story.

Edited January 2, 2013 by TheGrox

[skauble]

As a person who likes to breed for others and breed eggs only to drop them into the AP it sounds strange that others do not like to breed for the community, but ok, I get your point. What makes me change my mind about multichlutching is the argument that it would be unfair for Prizes while all other dragons can only produce one egg.

Except that the reason the other dragons produce one egg is because they're at a higher population percentage - if they weren't they they'd multi-clutch, too. That's why they used to and are still technically capable of doing so. So even if they didn't multi-clutch forever, it actually makes more sense that they do so until their population rises since they can't be increased via cave drop.

[Fuzzbucket]

You can't cover everything,. You can set up a new one in its place, when you have a "result", with only the options that have got a lot of support (as has been done in the increase limits on holidays" thread.... and you could edit that in at that point...

 

@ skauble:

 

Except that the reason the other dragons produce one egg is because they're at a higher population percentage - if they weren't they they'd multi-clutch, too. That's why they used to and are still technically capable of doing so. So even if they didn't multi-clutch forever, it actually makes more sense that they do so until their population rises since they can't be increased via cave drop.

 

That would NOT please the people here who seem to want the prizes primarily as trade fodder and want them to be as rare as possible. (I would rather just see more of them and no multis.)

 

Edited January 2, 2013 by fuzzbucket

[TheGrox]

Except that the reason the other dragons produce one egg is because they're at a higher population percentage - if they weren't they they'd multi-clutch, too.  That's why they used to and are still technically capable of doing so.  So even if they didn't multi-clutch forever, it actually makes more sense that they do so until their population rises since they can't be increased via cave drop.

But, in the role playing style of the game itself, why would they multiclutch? In real life, animals don't go "there's not many of us left guys, lets breed more! 8D" I know, I know, this game is nothing like real life, but you know what I mean.

 

 

@fuzzbucket: Yes, I might end up making a new poll when this one has it's result . But I think increasing prizes/multiclutching is the main issue in discussion at this point, so my poll is the most appropriate thing for the moment, as it covers most aspects of what is being discussed. c:

Edited January 2, 2013 by TheGrox

[drabrugon]

Except that the reason the other dragons produce one egg is because they're at a higher population percentage - if they weren't they they'd multi-clutch, too. That's why they used to and are still technically capable of doing so. So even if they didn't multi-clutch forever, it actually makes more sense that they do so until their population rises since they can't be increased via cave drop.

Honestly I thought that there was made a change some time ago to make multi-clutches impossible. I didn't know that they still could happen, I never had one for years now.

 

 

[Fuzzbucket]

Honestly I thought that there was made a change some time ago to make multi-clutches impossible. I didn't know that they still could happen, I never had one for years now.

They can't except with holidays - but there is a suggestion that there be a BSA to enable (but not guarantee) one from a breeding.

[skauble]

But, in the role playing style of the game itself, why would they multiclutch? In real life, animals don't go "there's not many of us left guys, lets breed more! 8D" I know, I know, this game is nothing like real life, but you know what I mean.

DC Ecology

 

The question isn't why would they multi-clutch, the question is, given the rationale above, why wouldn't they?

 

Honestly I thought that there was made a change some time ago to make multi-clutches impossible. I didn't know that they still could happen, I never had one for years now.

 

They're turned off because of the dragon population grew over the years and we didn't need to make so many eggs for new players. If they population suddenly experienced a drop they could be turned back on. The difference between these and, say, a new release, is that these can't be found in the cave, and so the only way to increase them is breeding.

[TheGrox]

If you want to discuss the option of a BSA making things multiclutch by the way, this is the thread for it. I think this would be much more appropriate than just making prizes multiclutch, but that's just me.

[Mistress of Whispers]

Someone could have pointed that out before I put the poll up . Though it's not too much of an issue I guess, given by the posts in this thread, people are very vocal about this and will post if they have a similar opinion to Whispers. The poll is just to give a general consensus of people's opinion, is all.

 

I sort of didn't want it to get confusing with toooooo many options, although I could have apparently added up to 30 options - that would have been one hell of a poll o_o

It's not an issue, I just wanted to clarify my post .

[MedievalMystic]

I'm personally against multi clutches for prize dragons. If I won a prize dragon and it multi clutched, then somehow that would make me feel obligated to release eggs that I don't need, even if I don't want to. I do, and would, breed for others if I got the dragon, but that would be a choice I make, whereas with a multiclutch situation it almost feels like I HAVE to give the eggs up and that doesn't sit well. Yes, Christmas dragons produce multiple eggs, and I release them all, and am happy to do so, but for some odd reason that I can't quite put my finger on it's just not the same, imo, with a prize dragon, and damned if I can explain exactly why that is. Christmas dragons are a given for everyone, prize dragons are certainly not, so maybe that's it. I like the thought of them being very rare, even if I don't ever get one. Just like the GoN. I'm thrilled that I have a dragon on my scroll that not everyone and their brother has, even if I can't breed it. lol Maybe that sounds selfish, but I don't mean it that way. Prize dragons are special things, and should stay that way, imo. I don't know exactly what I'm trying to say here, but I just don't like the multi clutch thing.

 

I got 3 hours sleep, and I'm babbling... :S

[skauble]

If you want to discuss the option of a BSA making things multiclutch by the way, this is the thread for it. I think this would be much more appropriate than just making prizes multiclutch, but that's just me.

I have some low gen Tinsels, and I'm even on the list for a couple of 2nd gens (provided they go back to breeding lol), so I don't have a problem with getting things to trade for them. However, for various reasons, anywhere from slow computer/connection speed to having a hard time with trading, some people have far less opportunities to aquire lower-gen prize dragons. At times I've seen people get quite frustrated over collection issues, and I think it's good to address them where it can be easily done.

 

This is not just something that could give those people access to them, but could also help to balance out the huge shift in the DC economy. And it's a shift with a lot of ripples, because players in search of those trades often collect far more rare dragons than they normally might, which takes them out of play for other players. I know that I spent a lot of time doing just that last year.

 

Does it lower the trade value for the prize winners? A bit, but the value is currently so high that I don't think that's the worst thing in the world.

 

Multi-clutches used to be a regular part of the game for population boosting, and while it was sad to wave goodbye to two Golds from a three Gold clutch, people did it and it wasn't a huge deal.

[TheGrox]

However, for various reasons, anywhere from slow computer/connection speed to having a hard time with trading, some people have far less opportunities to aquire lower-gen prize dragons.

You know, I have 2 2nd gen Tinsels, and more 3rd gens than I can count. And you know what? I have a terribly slow computer and a terribly slow connection (I think speedtest rates me at E or F). There was a time I thought I'd never get a 2nd or 3rd gen, but I carried on trying, and eventually got one. I have never caught a CB Metal, I only caught my first CB Stripes about a month ago (and I've been here for 3 years, albeit on and off).

 

Don't you think multiclutching would still be biased against people with a slow connection? Because the people with faster connections are going to grab the best stuff off the AP before them. Slow connections are a problem in the game that we can't do anything about, I'm afraid.

[Mistress of Whispers]

However, for various reasons, anywhere from slow computer/connection speed to having a hard time with trading, some people have far less opportunities to aquire lower-gen prize dragons.  At times I've seen people get quite frustrated over collection issues, and I think it's good to address them where it can be easily done.

<... snip...>

Does it lower the trade value for the prize winners?  A bit, but the value is currently so high that I don't think that's the worst thing in the world.

I agree with this. And to be honest: having one of those rare and awesome CB prize-winners on your scroll is amazing in and of itself. It shouldn't detract from their value if you can no longer use their offspring to buy an avalanche of CB metallics, 2nd gen Hollies, etc etc. Why isn't it enough to simply have a CB prize dragon?

Edited January 2, 2013 by Mistress of Whispers

[skauble]

Don't you think multiclutching would still be biased against people with a slow connection? Because the people with faster connections are going to grab the best stuff off the AP before them. Slow connections are a problem in the game that we can't do anything about, I'm afraid.

The main cave is hover and click, so computer/internet speed can be a bigger deal. Not to say that there aren't a lot of tips that make it easier, there are tons of them, but it is different than the AP. In the AP practice can matter a lot more because there's movement and learning to screen out all the other eggs jumping around. There's also the benefit of being able to narrow down potential breeding times, especially for people with a lot of IOUs who often do so on a fairly regular scale.

 

As for slow connections, there actually are ways that the matter could be addressed, but even if there weren't I don't think it means that we shouldn't consider it here.

[TheGrox]

The main cave is hover and click, so computer/internet speed can be a bigger deal.  Not to say that there aren't a lot of tips that make it easier, there are tons of them, but it is different than the AP.  In the AP practice can matter a lot more because there's movement and learning to screen out all the other eggs jumping around.  There's also the benefit of being able to narrow down potential breeding times, especially for people with a lot of IOUs who often do so on a fairly regular scale.

Narrow down potential breeding times? That's something only the very dedicated would do - the sort of people that already have lots of low gen prizes already. The sort of people who would do that would get loads of 2nd gens in no time.

 

And from experience, the people who are fastest and best at catching rares in the cave are also the ones who are best at catching in the AP too.

 

Also, a tinsel winner last year accidentally bred a 2nd gen to the AP. It went to someone who has never bred it - even though they appear to still be active. That hardly helps distribute the population.

Edited January 2, 2013 by TheGrox

[skauble]

Narrow down potential breeding times? That's something only the very dedicated would do - the sort of people that already have lots of low gen prizes already. The sort of people who would do that would get loads of 2nd gens in no time.

Why would only the people who already have low gen prizes do that? Since those rarely get dropped in the AP I don't see the connection between dedication and currently having low gen Tinsels. And getting things from the AP is still easier than gathering a bunch of CB metals to trade, especially if the population increased a bit.

[Coronaviridae]

Multiclutching would effectively be telling someone how to play, it is saying to the winner that they must breed for the community. It stops winners from having the option to just breed for themselves or their friends, or the people they want to breed for.

No, it's not.

 

It's not any different than the possibility of a vampire repulse telling people "how to play"; it's a fact of game rules.

 

Or rather, superficially, yes, it is. It's saying every time you breed, there's a chance you'll end up with one or more eggs you don't get to determine the fate of. If the entire point of this thread is suggestions on the distribution of prizes and how to ensure that people who get them keep breeding them, though, then multiclutching is the least noxious of all possible options to me, compared to the idea that people are obligated to stay on the site and obligated to play a certain way.

 

c.f. the idea that only people "guaranteed" or "more likely" to stay around should be allowed to participate in raffles. Multiclutching is already a part of the site's functioning for the distribution of dragons that TJ wants to rapidly multiply the population of. It does ultimately reduce an individual's control over the fate of their dragon's offspring, but it does not obligate them to breed or not breed for "the community" so much as the community can also benefit from the breeding of those dragons.

 

Honestly, my top choice is that more dragons are given out if the concern is the number of CBs available. Multiclutching is my compromise position, since it still doesn't force a certain playstyle even if it limits personal control and the possibility of a monopoly on trading.

[Fuzzbucket]

Also, a tinsel winner last year accidentally bred a 2nd gen to the AP. It went to someone who has never bred it - even though they appear to still be active. That hardly helps distribute the population.

But there is no reason that they SHOULD breed it. It isn't an obligation.

[TheGrox]

But there is no reason that they SHOULD breed it. It isn't an obligation.

I know, but everyone is arguing that multiclutching distributes the population. But it does no good if it distributes them to random players who don't breed them, and not to the players who actually want low gens.

 

 

As a side note, I remember getting my first tinsel - it was a 10th gen. And not the prettiest, but I was so happy to get it. Why do we all feel so obliged that we have to have better chances of getting 2nd gens? I prefer them rare.

 

Going by my calculations before, if Prizes were increased to 500 (still only about 1% of active players) AND they multiclutched, within 4 weeks, EVERY active player would have an average of about one 3rd gen, with more than a quarter of players having a 2nd gen - assuming they are distributed evenly. Has nobody here ever heard of deferred gratification? Working for things over time rather than getting them handed to you immediately. I worked for my 2nd gens, and it took me a long time to get them.

 

We don't need more commons - for me, rares are what make the game exciting.

Edited January 2, 2013 by TheGrox

[DarkEternity]

I know, but everyone is arguing that multiclutching distributes the population. But it does no good if it distributes them to random players who don't breed them, and not to the players who actually want low gens.

 

 

As a side note, I remember getting my first tinsel - it was a 10th gen. And not the prettiest, but I was so happy to get it. Why do we all feel so obliged that we have to have better chances of getting 2nd gens? I prefer them rare.

If you don't breed it, it doesn't contribute to the ratios. There will always be another one generated in its place, basically, from my understanding.

 

Isn't expanding the CB population also intended with the purpose of expanding the low gen population? Both suggestions make them more common and less rare.

 

No matter what way you look at it, the ratios will likely end up the same way.

 

Grox, no one has voted for increase in cbs and multiclutches. That would logically be pointless and generate an EGG APOCALYPSE.

Edited January 2, 2013 by DarkEternity

[skauble]

I know, but everyone is arguing that multiclutching distributes the population. But it does no good if it distributes them to random players who don't breed them, and not to the players who actually want low gens.

Except that not every player who gets them is going to suddenly stop playing. Also, I know people who've traded for low gens who've stopped playing, there aren't guarentees, but putting out more of them is, generally speaking, far more likely to end up with more people breeding them.

 

Also, it's not just about distributing the population, some of it, for me at least, is about distributing it to folks who can't afford to trade for them and who can't, for a variety of reasons, network for the connections to get them.

 

As a side note, I remember getting my first tinsel - it was a 10th gen. And not the prettiest, but I was so happy to get it. Why do we all feel so obliged that we have to have better chances of getting 2nd gens? I prefer them rare.

The fact is that they'd still be rare, they just wouldn't be such a large economic anomoly. Also, since generation has become so tied up with trading - which wasn't originally the case in this game - I think it would be nice to have a way for folks to have more access to the lower gen Tinsels and, frankly, even to more of some of the more elusive CBs.

[TheGrox]

Grox, no one has voted for increase in cbs and multiclutches. That would logically be pointless and generate an EGG APOCALYPSE.

I know, and I completely agree with you. I hadn't added that option originally, but someone asked me to add it, so I did. c:

 

 

 

Everyone, think about this; if we're trying to distribute the population, surely giving prizes to people who don't quit without breeding them (which happened to some tinsel winners last year) would help, no? Which brings me back to the original suggestion of limiting the raffle to Bronze trophy holders and above, or giving extra raffle entries to older players - making it MORE LIKELY that players will stay and breed 2nd gens. This doesn't force people to give away 2nd gens, as multiclutching would, and would make prizes a fair bit less rare. *hides before someone screams "but that's sooooooo unfair"*

Edited January 2, 2013 by TheGrox

[DarkEternity]

(Imagines egg apocalypse. *shudders)

Still, if more low gens are in circulation, the overall value of everything goes down.

So second gens could become as desirable/tradeable as a tenth gen?

Nothing I'm saying is making sense at midnight.

I can't even remember what I was going to say.

Edited January 2, 2013 by DarkEternity

[skauble]

(Imagines egg apocalypse. *shudders)

Still, if more low gens are in circulation, the overall value of everything goes down.

So second gens could become as desirable/tradeable as a tenth gen?

Nothing I'm saying is making sense at midnight.

I can't even remember what I was going to say.

I think it's more like trading would even out. They'd still be in high demand, but not the massive demand they were. I remember offering 5 CB Silvers for a 2nd gen once, and that got no interest. And I can honestly say that if I hadn't been looking for a 2nd gen I wouldn't have bothered catching all of those Silvers, which means that other people would have had a chance at them. I just think that the Tinsels, as fun as they are, created a bit too much of an imbalance.

[PolarVortex]

I voted for the proportional increase, though I would still support a higher proportion of winners than it sounds like most other people would want.

Edited January 9, 2013 by SockPuppet Strangler