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TJ09

2017-02-14 - Valentine's Day!

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I named mine Call Me Pearl Bailey and Pearl Barley.

 

I look forward to breeding them and seeing what lineages I like best.

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For real? If it was, did Taazay and EEF know? Because if they didn't, then that's kind of a poor excuse to change them IMO. I understand plagerism but how can it truly be that if they really didn't know about it?

 

This was posted on Pokefarm forum (here). I hope it's OK to copy the text here:

 

(Tazzay 18/Feb/2017 05:28:36)

...now I have my dragon get its sprites replaced because the legs looked like a photo of a bloody horse on the internet. Course now the admin isn't responding to my request to remove the dragon entirely. Thank you to whoever did this and smeared both my name and Sci's in the dirt. I hope you're happy.

 

Also, EEF's post is here, just found out that one.

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This was posted on Pokefarm forum (here). I hope it's OK to copy the text here:

 

 

 

Also, EEF's post is here, just found out that one.

Wow! Just...Wow!

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This was posted on Pokefarm forum (here). I hope it's OK to copy the text here:

 

 

 

Also, EEF's post is here, just found out that one.

I do hope that's not the real reason. It's so ridiculously generic - almost every rearing horse looks like that!

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I do hope that's not the real reason. It's so ridiculously generic - almost every rearing horse looks like that!

Exactly! It's like drawing an ant dragon and saying that the antlers look exactly like every other ant drawings out there! I am sort of shocked.

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Hrm. Just when you think it's over something new crops up. I think I'll just sit in the corner with my little DVD-clutching hatchies for now thumbs_up.png

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This was posted on Pokefarm forum (here). I hope it's OK to copy the text here:

 

Also, EEF's post is here, just found out that one.

...and here I almost didn't include this part because I thought it might be too paranoid... dry.gif

(unfortunately I can imagine several scenarios where it was unavoidable due to drama/internal conflict rather than due to actual facts)
It even sounds like EEF and Tazzay were going out of their way trying to appease whoever was complaining about this stuff. If the root of all this is actually worry about similarities with other art, it would have been infinitely better to just let them slightly rework the sprites and announce on the forums that, out of an abundance of caution, there might be a slight delay until the sprites were available.

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...and here I almost didn't include this part because I thought it might be too paranoid... dry.gif

It even sounds like EEF and Tazzay were going out of their way trying to appease whoever was complaining about this stuff. If the root of all this is actually worry about similarities with other art, it would have been infinitely better to just let them slightly rework the sprites and announce on the forums that, out of an abundance of caution, there might be a slight delay until the sprites were available.

Seriously. It sounds like the legs were the only problem (although as has been pointed out, they're very generic horse pose like the hellhorse...), why not just keep the old ones up until new legs are done? D.C. has used Pokémon sprites on occasion as jokes with no trouble, I doubt a random soon to be replaced set of horse legs would cause concern.

 

Obviously we only have their word on the matter right now but erghhh.

 

(And again I really love the new sprites, I just feel this whole thing was a nightmare. Wish the new ones could've appeared as their own thing someday.)

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It even sounds like EEF and Tazzay were going out of their way trying to appease whoever was complaining about this stuff. If the root of all this is actually worry about similarities with other art, it would have been infinitely better to just let them slightly rework the sprites and announce on the forums that, out of an abundance of caution, there might be a slight delay until the sprites were available.

And a lot of us preferred the old sprites but now we're stuck with these new dragons. It's a win for everyone who actually likes them, but it's huge loss to Tazzay and EEF because they don't get their spriter's alt and they get their names smeared in the dirt. And it's a loss to everyone who preferred the original all because of one person.

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Thats... honestly really sad if that's true. I can understand them being that upset. Mad props to the substitute spriter though. There's no way in heck I could have done something that good in 48 hours. blink.gif

 

Honestly I like the old ones more, but that's still really good work for something that was rushed in just a couple days. Sure it could use a couple edits but... still it's not bad at all.

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On an unrelated positive note, thank you to the writers who made the event. Getting around was confusing at times, but it was really fun finding (and seeing others find) the many snort inducing Easter eggs. Burger King, spider love and the flute are the top of my head favorites tongue.gif

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This was posted on Pokefarm forum (here). I hope it's OK to copy the text here:

 

 

 

Also, EEF's post is here, just found out that one.

i can't believe that's the reason?? e___e Every flippin' pair of equine and cervine legs basically all look the same. I draw such creatures a lot and I can say from blatant experience that animals pose similarly all the time.

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If the root of all this is actually worry about similarities with other art, it would have been infinitely better to just let them slightly rework the sprites and announce on the forums that, out of an abundance of caution, there might be a slight delay until the sprites were available.

Agreed. I think not causing a delay might have been a big factor here. It struck me when the thread was closed and this was posted:

 

~Closing due to the over whelming amount of reports, will reopen after we finish. ~

 

Edit to add: Just a thought, demanding a sprite that DC can not use does not help. Try to remember we fixed the problem as quickly as possible.

 

~Edit: This topic now open, if it becomes necessary it will be closed. ~

 

Presumably rushing another sprite out was faster/easier than reworking the original sufficiently (apparently only to avoid a too similar/generic pose issue). :S

Edited by Aurae

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I prefer the original sprites but don’t hate the new ones, especially the adults. But if these posts up there are true… wow. Just wow. It doesn’t sit right with me that the original artists’ concept was used with another artist(s)’s sprites, especially if they didn't sign off on it. I would have preferred a post saying “yo our bad” with the existing eggs/hatchies replaced with an entirely new VD breed.

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On an unrelated positive note, thank you to the writers who made the event. Getting around was confusing at times, but it was really fun finding (and seeing others find) the many snort inducing Easter eggs. Burger King, spider love and the flute are the top of my head favorites tongue.gif

I second that and add my thanks to them, the event was very entertaining - even if I did get stuck in the Bush of Entanglement! xd.png

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Presumably rushing another sprite out was faster/easier than reworking the original sufficiently (apparently only to avoid a too similar/generic pose issue). :S

But we've had sprites on here that have been reworked. Just take a look at the silver and gold dragons. They were released and were reworked on.

Edited by Raptor of Dragons

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This was posted on Pokefarm forum (here). I hope it's OK to copy the text here:

 

 

 

Also, EEF's post is here, just found out that one.

Well, as promised, they are clearly comfortable sharing what they believe happened, so here we go.

 

The sprites violated the artist agreement from the very beginning because the original sketch was available on DA. This was discovered by someone else and reported to me after the release had already started.

 

Specifically, the text reads:

Art that is selected for release may not be displayed on any external site (such as image galleries) or displayed on the Dragon Cave forums (excluding private moderator- or artist-only areas) during the period spanning 60 days before use until one week after the art is placed into use on Dragon Cave. The artist will be notified when before both of these milestones is reached so that they have ample time to comply.

 

Because the sketch was available, and because there is a history of Tazzay tracing (they have had incidents on other sites, and apparently had a concept removed from the DC forums in 2013 after its sketch was implicated as being partially traced, something I wasn't aware of at the time the dragons were submitted), I asked edwardelricfreak to provide their references for the sketch.

 

After examining the references and several other easily-discovered images (such as those found in Tazzay's and edwardelricfreak's favorites), a number of concerning similarities were found. These similarities extend beyond simple "pose resemblences" into what appears to be direct copying/tracing:

 

https://galio.technoized.com/image.png (left leg almost exactly matches an image by an artist that created a well-known anatomy reference, and there is a visible difference in the lining right where it matches).

https://galio.technoized.com/image2.png (the right leg on the adult almost exactly matches one of the references used).

https://i.imgur.com/Ef1BPa9.png (pose for the S2 is almost identical to a stock photo found easily via google).

 

Combined with the historical context, the number of similarities was enough for me to decide the risk of these sprites being plagiarized was too great. The course of action set forth in the artist agreement is clear regarding the matter—the sprites cannot simply be edited, because the risk of the new sprites being plagiarized (or other parts being traced without my knowledge simply because the source images hadn't been located). To quote the relevant section (emphasis mine):

 

By signing this agreement the artist verifies that the work(s) of art in question represent an original effort on the artist’s part. Should any part of the art found to be plagiarized or copied, the entire piece of art (and potentially any related pieces) will be removed (See REMOVAL below).

 

And per the removal process (again, emphasis mine):

 

Once this agreement is in effect, permission to use the art may not be removed by the artist without the consent of the owner of Dragon Cave. If the art is already in use, it may not be removed until a suitable replacement has been found or created and is in use. In extreme cases, the owner of Dragon Cave reserves the right to immediately remove art without the consent of the artist.

 

Given that the dragon was already out there, the agreement says I can't just completely pull it; replacements must be made. As I mentioned earlier, I notified Tazzay and edwardelricfreak of this the night before my dragons became adults, and received a response from Tazzay shortly after (I should also note that, as I said before, I had contacted edwardelricfreak numerous times on the matter, including providing the same evidence images linked above; Tazzay PMed me in response to one of these PMs, so they must have known what was going on as well).

 

The whole situation is unfortunate, and has resulted in a lot of churn due to sprites that were already in the wild being replaced only days after their release. Had there been a way for me to avoid this whole mess, I certainly would have taken it; however, the artist agreement is pretty explicit on how this was to be handled.

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I still don't understand why we couldn't have gotten "fogged" sprites while they worked on making these new sprites the best they could be, instead of just putting out rushed sprites.

 

I have a scroll-goal of 20 dragons of each breed, but these might be the exception. I still think they look really rushed and unfinished.

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Seeing EEF's post makes me wonder why TJ would even choose to release these if he didn't like the legs. Obviously it took time to rework the legs and time to create a whole new sprite. Why not just give critique and encourage them to submit again next year. I mean it was clear that they had hooves from the beginning.

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In my opinion, if EEF and Tazzay were the original creators of the breed in its entirety (which, given EEF's stance of "that's where their name comes from originally," in the post, it sounds like they did), then DC has no right to take their concept and continue to use it without their permission. It'd be like if someone took a piece of writing - with permission - and posted it to their site... then edited it, not to change the meaning, but just altering it by using synonyms for every word dry.gif The concept and species are EEF and Tazzay's and going off of Tazzay's post they clearly want it gone, not just the sprites.

 

And, if it was truly pulled for similarity to the stance of a horse in a photograph with its back legs, is that even truly copyright worthy? You can't copyright a style or pose... and unless the rest of the composition was so similar (ie, the deer had the same coloration, same front feet, the background was the same, etc) that it could be considered plagiarism on that front... it isn't, really. The thing that makes something copyright infringement is to have the meaning be the same with very little editing. Every equine looks the same... this dragon was not a horse, was not the same color, did not have the same details... and, again, every horse stands the same way. As well as every deer. It just rubs me the wrong way.

 

 

I think the best thing for this situation, if what the spriters say happened happened, at this point, is for DC's staff to pull the dragon in is entirety and sub in another dragon that might have been chosen for the event.

 

Just a change of sprite and description. Nothing more than that.

 

 

Kudos to the spriter after learning it was indeed done in 48 hours. You did well.

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Well, as promised, they are clearly comfortable sharing what they believe happened, so here we go.

 

The sprites violated the artist agreement from the very beginning because the original sketch was available on DA. This was discovered by someone else and reported to me after the release had already started.

 

Specifically, the text reads:

 

 

Because the sketch was available, and because there is a history of Tazzay tracing (they have had incidents on other sites, and apparently had a concept removed from the DC forums in 2013 after its sketch was implicated as being partially traced, something I wasn't aware of at the time the dragons were submitted), I asked edwardelricfreak to provide their references for the sketch.

 

After examining the references and several other easily-discovered images (such as those found in Tazzay's and edwardelricfreak's favorites), a number of concerning similarities were found. These similarities extend beyond simple "pose resemblences" into what appears to be direct copying/tracing:

 

https://galio.technoized.com/image.png (left leg almost exactly matches an image by an artist that created a well-known anatomy reference, and there is a visible difference in the lining right where it matches).

https://galio.technoized.com/image2.png (the right leg on the adult almost exactly matches one of the references used).

https://i.imgur.com/Ef1BPa9.png (pose for the S2 is almost identical to a stock photo found easily via google).

 

Combined with the historical context, the number of similarities was enough for me to decide the risk of these sprites being plagiarized was too great. The course of action set forth in the artist agreement is clear regarding the matter—the sprites cannot simply be edited, because the risk of the new sprites being plagiarized (or other parts being traced without my knowledge simply because the source images hadn't been located). To quote the relevant section (emphasis mine):

 

 

 

And per the removal process (again, emphasis mine):

 

 

 

Given that the dragon was already out there, the agreement says I can't just completely pull it; replacements must be made. As I mentioned earlier, I notified Tazzay and edwardelricfreak of this the night before my dragons became adults, and received a response from Tazzay shortly after (I should also note that, as I said before, I had contacted edwardelricfreak numerous times on the matter, including providing the same evidence images linked above; Tazzay PMed me in response to one of these PMs, so they must have known what was going on as well).

 

The whole situation is unfortunate, and has resulted in a lot of churn due to sprites that were already in the wild being replaced only days after their release. Had there been a way for me to avoid this whole mess, I certainly would have taken it; however, the artist agreement is pretty explicit on how this was to be handled.

Well that explains a lot.

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Well that explains a lot.

Yeah it does >..> I just hope the new spriter's goes back and touches up on them

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Looking at TJ's part of the story, and the images posted with similarities... I just don't really see it. I mean, the back legs are similar, but that's an incredibly generic pose that doesn't seem difficult to replicate at all. Sure, the thing about the sketch being displayed on DeviantArt is new, but it sounds like the main issue was with the posing, and that just seems silly to me. Of course, what's done is done, and it's still impressive that a new sprite was made over the span of two days, but it really just doesn't seem like pulling the original was necessary.

 

That's of course, just my opinion, and I'm not particularly well-versed in art.

Edited by Capricornus

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