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TJ09

2017-02-14 - Valentine's Day!

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By the way - the dragons have been submitted every year for the past 3 years. Funny how the issue was only brought up after the release, and not the three years before, huh?

Until now, TJ was the only person aware these sprites existed aside from you guys, so nobody else could have brought things up.

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The wings on the new sprite are similar to several other DC dragons - should we start a new witch hunt instead of picking on Tazzay for some generic legs? biggrin.gif (Joking, joking! No more accusations, please!)

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Until now, TJ was the only person aware these sprites existed aside from you guys, so nobody else could have brought things up.

Yet someone who wasn't TJ managed to find the adult sprite, its sketch, and report it before it was even released?

 

Other people were evidently privy to the dragon before release.

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Until now, TJ was the only person aware these sprites existed aside from you guys, so nobody else could have brought things up.

By the same logic only TJ could have called attention to the similarities in the S3 poses, the adults weren't visible yet.

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Yet someone who wasn't TJ managed to find the adult sprite, its sketch, and report it before it was even released?

 

Other people were evidently privy to the dragon before release.

The sketch is what was reported to me, not the sprite.

 

The person who reported it didn't even know if it was actually the same dragon; it was however labeled "Valentine's Dragon Adult," which strongly implied a match to them.

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Until now, TJ was the only person aware these sprites existed aside from you guys, so nobody else could have brought things up.

I did go to other already in-cave artists for crits about these guys over the years. All they pointed out was the dangly bit on the wing was weird before it was edited.

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Yet someone who wasn't TJ managed to find the adult sprite, its sketch, and report it before it was even released?

 

Other people were evidently privy to the dragon before release.

The sketch was on EEF's DA after TJ's eggs hatched, and EEF's name was clearly visible as credited on-site. It'd be super easy for someone who looked at the hatchling credits after they hatched to, say... find EEF's Deviantart, go "huh that's a sketch that says 'Valentine's dragon sketch', I wonder if it's this one? It has the antlers and everything."

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-snippu-

The reindeer is a stock photo. Meaning it can be referenced or used if they paid for it or if it falls under CC/ fair use (depending on what the photographer wants). A quick search for the horse photo in tineye gives six pages of different variants, so it's unclear what the original one even was.

 

In all three instances, the sketch was adjusted slightly so that it would fall in line with what the user wanted TJ to see---tracing.

 

Yes, copyright infringement is bad. Yes, most DA stuff isn't stock, but in the end, none of those pictures are what was explicitly on DC.

 

The one thing that would justify this is that the sketch was available for someone else to see.

 

 

EDIT: I know this doesn't matter as what's done is done. But those are stock photos.

Edited by Jazeki

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At the end of the day, once the artists sign the agreement the sprite belongs to the site. Specifically, the site owner. Which also can put the site, and TJ, legally on the hook if any of the art were to be suspected of plagiarism. Regardless of what any of us think, if TJ felt that it was close enough to other pieces that it wouldn't be legally defensible against a plagiarism complaint, he can pull it and replace it.

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I say this as an artist who has seen SO. MANY. stock manga poses and the like where you can see the same damn pose used by many artists but its still different because of what the artist DID with them, and the different characters too and still clearly distinctively different from each other. You have less similarity to that photo than many pictures I've seen have to each other. smile.gif So don't worry about it, is what I'm gonna say.

 

This is a qoute from my mocking wyvern project. It's still incomplete, but some one had used the same exact drawing and redid it to where it would fit the design for the male. However, when someone pointed it out, I pulled it for fear of copyrighting it and replaced it. I later told people about it and that is what Sapphire had to say. She also said that she wouldn't have recognised the dragon otherwise had I not pointed it out

 

I think this is important because of what's going on.

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I was the TC of the Nebula Dragons. The male purple's sprite was drawn from a picture someone posted of an actual nebula and noticed it looked dragonlike. It was drawn straight on to the photo basically.

 

By this logic, male Nebs are traced.

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I know it's probably been said before but I've gotta say it... If you do an image search for rearing horses that same pose appears so many times you could match every horse-like sprite to a dozen photos.

 

The S2 isn't AS common but it's part of a deer's walk cycle... blink.gif

 

I can see why TJ made the decision (although it appears to be heavily biased by past events and I'm not big on grudge-holding and the like) but I can equally see that the artists are probably no more at fault than anyone else who's ever drawn something based on the anatomy of equidae/cervidae and the saddest thing is that we've lost a beautiful dragon over something so generic. sad.gif

Edited by Aurae

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[snip]

But shame that it had only been pointed out after our dragon got released. By the way things played out, it seems that someone got salty about us getting a holiday release, and immediately tried to smear our names in the dirt. By the way - the dragons have been submitted every year for the past 3 years. Funny how the issue was only brought up after the release, and not the three years before, huh?

[snip]

How exactly was someone supposed to say anything before then? The first instant anybody knew anything about the dragons and who made them was when the eggs hatched. Before then, nobody but you and TJ knew they were being submitted as holiday dragons.

 

If it had been a Dragon Requests situation, I would be more sympathetic to the "why wasn't it mentioned before" plea. But with the Holidays, secrecy is the absolute rule. Nobody could have said anything before.

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Oh boy, more drama!

 

 

Given that Tazzay has been known to trace before in addition to the current evidence, I don't think there was much of an option to keep them on site - the risk was too great.

 

I love the new sprites, though I still vote we replace the vday dragon with bees since people insist on having the old sprite or nothing.

No drama, only bees.

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I was the TC of the Nebula Dragons. The male purple's sprite was drawn from a picture someone posted of an actual nebula and noticed it looked dragonlike. It was drawn straight on to the photo basically.

 

By this logic, male Nebs are traced.

If you have evidence of other sprites being traced, then that's certainly serious and should be addressed, though it is orthogonal to this. To date, this is the first situation where such evidence has been provided; this is the first time I've had to enforce the plagiarism parts of the agreement.

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Well, as promised, they are clearly comfortable sharing what they believe happened, so here we go.

 

The sprites violated the artist agreement from the very beginning because the original sketch was available on DA. This was discovered by someone else and reported to me after the release had already started.

 

Specifically, the text reads:

 

 

Because the sketch was available, and because there is a history of Tazzay tracing (they have had incidents on other sites, and apparently had a concept removed from the DC forums in 2013 after its sketch was implicated as being partially traced, something I wasn't aware of at the time the dragons were submitted), I asked edwardelricfreak to provide their references for the sketch.

 

After examining the references and several other easily-discovered images (such as those found in Tazzay's and edwardelricfreak's favorites), a number of concerning similarities were found. These similarities extend beyond simple "pose resemblences" into what appears to be direct copying/tracing:

 

https://galio.technoized.com/image.png (left leg almost exactly matches an image by an artist that created a well-known anatomy reference, and there is a visible difference in the lining right where it matches).

https://galio.technoized.com/image2.png (the right leg on the adult almost exactly matches one of the references used).

https://i.imgur.com/Ef1BPa9.png (pose for the S2 is almost identical to a stock photo found easily via google).

 

Combined with the historical context, the number of similarities was enough for me to decide the risk of these sprites being plagiarized was too great. The course of action set forth in the artist agreement is clear regarding the matter—the sprites cannot simply be edited, because the risk of the new sprites being plagiarized (or other parts being traced without my knowledge simply because the source images hadn't been located). To quote the relevant section (emphasis mine):

 

 

 

And per the removal process (again, emphasis mine):

 

 

 

Given that the dragon was already out there, the agreement says I can't just completely pull it; replacements must be made. As I mentioned earlier, I notified Tazzay and edwardelricfreak of this the night before my dragons became adults, and received a response from Tazzay shortly after (I should also note that, as I said before, I had contacted edwardelricfreak numerous times on the matter, including providing the same evidence images linked above; Tazzay PMed me in response to one of these PMs, so they must have known what was going on as well).

 

The whole situation is unfortunate, and has resulted in a lot of churn due to sprites that were already in the wild being replaced only days after their release. Had there been a way for me to avoid this whole mess, I certainly would have taken it; however, the artist agreement is pretty explicit on how this was to be handled.

Thanks for the explanation.

 

The sketch on deviantart I get. The "resemblance" of tracing from the photos... not so much. Poses seem to be generic and stock to me, but what's done is done. Give the new guys a coat of polish and I'm sure they'll be fine.

 

Now to think of names for the purple-spyro-dudes lol.

 

Thanks too for the event! Not one of my personal favs but it was different and interesting.

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I am still having a hard time being convinced it was traced... I mean, yea things are similar, and referencing things can get you pretty darn close to the original if you're one of those amazing people that can look at something and just draw it again.

 

Generic stock photos are there for reference anyway.

 

Now, if you could line that baby up to match someone else art (not just another work that has a similar pose on two back legs) then I will agree, but so far this is ridiculous. I draw all the time, I have the horrible habit of not using references for the most part, but that is because I am afraid of someone going, "YOUR POSE LOOKS LIKE THIS POSE AND THAT POSE x10 YOU ARE UNORIGINAL." It took forever for me to realize that you cannot copy write a pose and it's okay to reference.

 

As I am attempting to start using references more often, most experienced artists will tell you to ALWAYS use references. It's OKAY to do that. Disney Animators do it, Concept Artists for video games do it, Pixar does it, etc. Some look pretty close to the originals but in their own style. I have even seen an improvement in my own ability by looking at references.

 

So basically what I want some of the aspiring artists out there who are reading this thread and worrying about their abilities or using references.

 

THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH REFERENCING. REFERENCING IS GOOD, I PROMISE. DO NOT LET THIS MAKE YOU WORRIED.

 

As long as you are not slapping an image down in PS and drawing over it exactly, and you are just kinda eyeing it along with other references to get a feel for what you are doing, then you are doing it right! Not sure how a leg bends to properly support the weight of a horse rearing? Google up like a dozen images, stick em all over your desktop, and draw with those bad boys helping you out along the way. No one can copy write a horse rearing.

 

As for this entire poopstorm, I don't really know. But I remain unconvinced something has been done wrong. I would need to see more clearly defined images of these traces and references on a larger document so I can see it all in once place and squint my eyes at it. I could be right or wrong at this point.

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The sketch was on EEF's DA after TJ's eggs hatched, and EEF's name was clearly visible as credited on-site. It'd be super easy for someone who looked at the hatchling credits after they hatched to, say... find EEF's Deviantart, go "huh that's a sketch that says 'Valentine's dragon sketch', I wonder if it's this one? It has the antlers and everything."

If the sketch in question is on EEF's DA why are you accusing Tazzay of tracing? blink.gif

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I would never consider the male Nebulas traced because it was a flippin' stock photo of a nebula. It was very cool and the only contribution my thread made to the Nebula dragons

 

My point is that if horse stock photos make these traced, then by that logic Nebulas also are. And that's ridiculous, like this is.

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Truly amazing.

 

Also, I have so many questions about their antlers and the pearl. Clearly they can take the pearl out, but how does the floating work? Do they dip their head and grab the pearl with their paw? Can they just turn off this antigravitational field at will? Can they stick other things between their antlers to carry/float them around? Is there a weight limit? What if they whip their head and turn off this antigravitational field- does the pearl (or whatever was floating) go flying? Can they play catch like that?

 

Seriously.

Magnetic fields, yo

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Given that Tazzay has been known to trace before in addition to the current evidence, I don't think there was much of an option to keep them on site - the risk was too great.

That's besides the point. Whether it was traced or not, it's still an entirely different dragon! I'm wondering seeing if people are seeing my post about the mocking wyvern because in a way, the original male sprite had a similar problem and I pulled in for fear of copyrighting but someone else said otherwise.

 

You have a drawing of a dragon and rework everything about it except the pose. Sapphire said she wouldn't have noticed it as my inspiration until I pointed it out. However I wouldn't have had to pull it of someone else hadn't mentioned it first.

 

 

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I have to admit I don't really see an issue with the photos/sprite similarity (hell, there are only so many poses/directions you can draw a leg from that makes it easy to see at pixel size, I'm sure like 90% of my doodles are in similar poses haha) but the sketch being released publicly is definitely a big whoops that violates the agreement. :u

 

I appreciate the clarification on what exactly went down, and my heart goes out to all involved. Both sprite sets are absolutely gorgeous, and the mess that's resulted is nothing but sad. sad.gif All artists involved did a fantastic job, regardless of this event's dramapalooza. I wish you all the best.

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That's besides the point. Whether it was traced or not, it's still an entirely different dragon! I'm wondering seeing if people are seeing my post about the mocking wyvern because in a way, the original male sprite had a similar problem and I pulled in for fear of copyrighting but someone else said otherwise.

 

You have a drawing of a dragon and rework everything about it except the pose. Sapphire said she wouldn't have noticed it as my inspiration until I pointed it out. However I wouldn't have had to pull it of someone else hadn't mentioned it first.

I think a lot of posts are getting lost here because there's a lot of well-thought-out replies being posted at once. (BTW I like the ant-dragon reply you made to one of my posts a few pages back. Ant dragons would be terrifying however you look at it - tiny firebreathing menaces that singe feet or freaky GIGANTIC flying ants with claws and everything... Scary!)

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Not that my voice here really matters BUT that's not gonna stop me from sharing it.

 

Yeah, i can kinda see how the adult possibly may have had some parts traced. The hatchling, though? There's only so many poses you can do with a tiny complex sprite like that. This one is running. Four legged animals in reality also have a tendency to run. I can buy the adult, but you lose me on the hatchie.

 

 

Also, opinion here, like absolute pure opinion; maybe it shouldntve had hooves? Considering how close in anatomy the adult is to a regular deer, it's almost just a purple deer with wings. Also while in looks nice in the sketch, the neck on the adult looks shorter than in the hatchies, again closer to deer anatomy. Granted that was probably due to the rearing pose, but it may have benefited from a tad more length.

 

Besides the whole, y'know. Wing arms sitting right on top of the forelegs. A common issue on this site.

 

Kinda beating a dead horse (deer?) now though, so i'll end this little ramble here :L

 

 

Happy v-day ! Purple dragon.

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I think a lot of posts are getting lost here because there's a lot of well-thought-out replies being posted at once. (BTW I like the ant-dragon reply you made to one of my posts a few pages back. Ant dragons would be terrifying however you look at it - tiny firebreathing menaces that singe feet or freaky GIGANTIC flying ants with claws and everything... Scary!)

xd.png Thanks! I was looking for something to reference to and ants just popped in my brain.

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