Refuse to Have Refusals!

[Syphoneira]

Again, second gen prizes and second gens from artist alts aren't exactly easy to replace, particularly when the artist goes inactive. And zombie lines can't be rebred, since one parent is dead. Refusals in their current form are game breaking by definition, as they limit a major gameplay mechanic in ways that discourage players from becoming invested in the game.

 

This thread is not simply about removing refusals entirely; it is for discussing non-BSA ideas to limit the damage refusals can cause, of which my of us prefer entirely eliminating them.

 

Please read the OP; it explains this better :3

 

 

Exactly, and the only reason many of us are not pushing to have them removed entirely is because some people do want them and we're trying to compromise.

 

In example, I recently got two nice shinies, waited to breed them for the first time until a friend came on, and had both of them Refuse their mates last night.

 

That's absolutely pointless and stupid - but in those cases, I have more prospectively suitable mates and can try again next week, so at least it's not a disaster.

 

In that case, there's only frustration, disappointment and delay - for absolutely no logical reason - inflicted on two people sadly reliant on a game to help relieve daily stress levels.

 

In other cases, where the mates are not replaceable, the worry and stress *takes the fun out of acquiring fabulous new lineages, of breeding and out of the game* for many people.

 

If the game isn't rewarding and fun, and instead adds more stress and disappointment to what members do in their leisure time to get away from what they already have to live with, there's not much point in the game for many people.

 

If an action/BSA isn't effective and fails, it doesn't help with the problem it's intended to fix - that just strikes me as inefficiency.

 

We're trying to work things so that people who actually want to waste their most amazing and irreplaceable dragons and spoil what ought to be a great occasion in lucking into/finally attaining some fabulous lineage with worry about whether their only possible mate(s) will be Refused can still do so, but the rest of us don't have to.

 

We're trying to create what we think will be lovely things and having the process arbitrarily shut down on a random basis simply doesn't seem to make sense to us.

 

But we can still understand that others feel differently and are willing try to work out a way where choice is an option.

[AnanoKimi]

Honestly I don't see whats exciting or "fun" about two dragons that you worked really hard t obtain and could potentially be irreplaceable refusing to breed when the last thing you can rely on is lineage creation.

 

Lineage creation has become such a big and prominent part of this site that things like misgendering and refusals are a big deal when they happen. Its especially game and heart breaking when it happens with pairs that are very difficult to obtain or create for whatever reason. People say

 

...just find trades or stalk the forums for players with the right lineages and see about trading with them.

 

which as with many things is easier said than done. Its easy to say just go find a trade but how many people might actually be working on the very same type of dragon and depending on their rarity how much with that possibly cost you? If its something difficult to breed/obtain then price is generally high, if its common then yeah its not that hard to get that new blood.

 

Generally the refusals tend to be happening with the harder to obtain much rarer pairs and really when you spend a lot of your game time trying to find the right mate and they refuse its not better than building a sandcastle, no matter how weird, and having that big bully on the beach come by and just kick it in your face. Not only has he destroyed your work but partially blinded you all in one go. Yeah, that's not exactly a "Fun and exciting" feeling if you ask me.

 

I mean if you like having someone come by and kick down your little sand castle or your sand sculpture while you try to rub the sand out of your eyes then hey, all you man. The rest of us don't really like that feeling. Its not nice to work so hard at something, invest the time you have into something that is supposed to be a fun and relaxing game, having it kick you in the mouth. Part of my deterrent to want to fully continue any lineage projects I want to start is this very same issue. I don't want to deal with having mates refuse at random moments and having to switch around to make it work and have others refuse there and its a pretty damn big hassle no one should have to deal with regardless of whether what you plan to breed is dirt common or rare human morality itself.

 

This game is supposed to be fun, you collect dragons to your hearts content or create awesome lineages that make you just go "Wow" but when there is a game feature that severely hinders in that gameplay then it goes from being fun to being annoying and instead turning your attention to something else.

 

Honestly I can even say its been a pain in the ass trying to keep refusals in the back of my head because with some of the rarer breed its become a hassle trying to gather more than two females to breed with Myst. With refusals so prominent, I have to collect 2+ females to ensure that should Myst refuse one I have 6 others to fall on just in case. With breeds like Golds, Silvers, Coppers, Pyralpsites, etc, its a real pain because they are so rare and so pricy and relying on a Prize that doesn't always breed true is a pain in the brain. I hate Prize IOUs and I'd rather not increase my stress list more than I need to and refusals seem set on doin that since most rare trade's say "Other shiny metals/rares or 2g prizes" and I'm sitting here like "I can offer an IOU but I'd rather not so I can finally get to breeding Myst as I want not as others expect me to"

[Fuzzbucket]

Honestly I don't see whats exciting or "fun" about two dragons that you worked really hard t obtain and could potentially be irreplaceable refusing to breed when the last thing you can rely on is lineage creation.

No-one said it was fun to get a refusal. I certainly never said it was FUN. But I do NOT want refusals taken away entirely either - and I am a made keen lineage builder.

 

This game is supposed to be fun, you collect dragons to your hearts content or create awesome lineages that make you just go "Wow" but when there is a game feature that severely hinders in that gameplay then it goes from being fun to being annoying and instead turning your attention to something else.

...which in my case is finding a way around it - a challenge. In the same way as finding a CB gold - also VERY frustrating - (I NEED another male !) - is a challenge.

 

I'm fine with a refamiliarise - or whatever - action with strict limits, like those for freezing - but I'd rather the mechanic stayed, just the same.

 

[Syphoneira]

Seems that most agree with there being some option to neutralize Refusals at least in the most important cases - we just have to hope that TJ agrees, lol.

 

But with the numbers affected, it seriously needs to be something that works well and often enough to be actually useful...

 

Edit: sentence under construction - needz moar cofffffeeeee.....

Edited March 18, 2015 by Syphoneira

[djengis]

test breeding with a refusal isn't a big deal. They'll still breed true come the holidays anyway, refusals are cut off for the holiday they're chosen.

 

With the lineages getting refusals, just find trades or stalk the forums for players with the right lineages and see about trading with them.

 

I'm still going against full getting rid of refusals though for the above reasons though

I still like to breed mine off season too, so to me it is a big deal

[Fuzzbucket]

I still like to breed mine off season too, so to me it is a big deal

And if you breed in season, you can ONLY get a holiday, so...

[stagazer_7]

I still like to breed mine off season too, so to me it is a big deal 

Same here, I have lineages that depend on my Holiday checkers producing a non-Holiday mate - for example, I grabbed a 2nd, 3rd and 4th gen Rosebud x White checkers during the V-day drop with the intention to build White mates for my 3rd and 4th gen Rosebuds myself. Fortunately, I did not have any refusals with this line so I was able to build my desired perfect 5th gen checker, but have I had any refusals that would have thrown a wrench in my plans and delayed the completion of my project, perhaps indefinitely. :3

 

While I don't like refusals I wouldn't mind if they remained as a part of a game's mechanic as long as there some way to get pass the permanent part of it in cases of emergencies, such as having really difficult/impossible to replace mates. Some excellent solutions have been offered, such as Reconcile BSA and simply making the whole refusal thing temporary, but if none of these are viable options, I rather see refusals gone completely.

Edited March 18, 2015 by stagazer_7

[Syphoneira]

After writing to someone who supplied me with a Refused mate back in 2011 to see if they were still playing (haven't noticed them posting anywhere...) and wanted to trade for a re-breed, the Shimmer someone recently gifted me Refused the 2nd of my only two male CB Springs.

 

Springs are coming, so I'm just glad that the Shimmer isn't an Autumn line, but if that Pink pairing had produced, I'd have had a decent mate for a recently acquired-by-AP-chance dragon with Spriter Alts and Goths - and how many people are going to be even able to produce a Goth and Old Pink base in a 3rd even-gen Pink, never mind around and willing to trade?

 

This is so discouraging...

 

 

 

One of the best things about my finally getting some Holly and White lineages involves the ability to make pretties year round and help supply mates to those who need them and have unrelated dragons in one of those gens.

 

My lovely Holly and Winter checker is rather a disappointment in this respect, much as I adore it, because it's only useful in Winter season, although luckily not just once a year.

 

If my Holly and White checkers were only breedable once a year, it would take a LOT of the joy out of them.

 

 

[daba555]

After breeding mates for 2 avatars since last July, and finally succeeding (with help from my friends), both pairs refused their mates

 

This just gets worse and worse....

[yosofine]

I'm sorry you all are having problems with refusals. Be sure to look for other possible reasons, such as attempting breeding during holidays, that refusals could be happening.

 

Complaining in this thread, which is a discussion thread about the mechanics of refusals, won't get you any help with the situation.

 

Refusals are part of the game, but if you have a proven pair (a couple who have produced eggs before and you can show it) and they now refuse each other without reason, you need to write to TJ and show your proof with links.

 

Using this thread as a complaint place isn't adding anything toward improvements.

[olympe]

I'm sorry you all are having problems with refusals. Be sure to look for other possible reasons, such as attempting breeding during holidays, that refusals could be happening.

Aham, refusals don't happen during holiday season - unless you insist on breeding a Christmas and a Valentine dragon during the Halloween breeding season. Generally, we seem to have a problem with an increased rate of refusals that do not fall into the category of "galactically stupid".

[Sir Barton]

I'm sorry you all are having problems with refusals. Be sure to look for other possible reasons, such as attempting breeding during holidays, that refusals could be happening.

 

Complaining in this thread, which is a discussion thread about the mechanics of refusals, won't get you any help with the situation.

 

Refusals are part of the game, but if you have a proven pair (a couple who have produced eggs before and you can show it) and they now refuse each other without reason, you need to write to TJ and show your proof with links.

 

Using this thread as a complaint place isn't adding anything toward improvements.

While refusals are currently part of the game, the discussion is about changing that particular mechanic because it has become a game breaking issue for many, as proven by the numerous complaints. It all seems relevant to me.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Sir Barton

[stagazer_7]

Be sure to look for other possible reasons, such as attempting breeding during holidays, that refusals could be happening.

 

Complaining in this thread, which is a discussion thread about the mechanics of refusals, won't get you any help with the situation.

 

Refusals are part of the game, but if you have a proven pair (a couple who have produced eggs before and you can show it) and they now refuse each other without reason, you need to write to TJ and show your proof with links.

 

Using this thread as a complaint place isn't adding anything toward improvements.

Most of us are having problem with an alarming increase in refusals during the last couple of months or so. Refusals are not only problematic for holiday lineages, but also in lineages where dragons produce offspring during the entire year. And as far as I know no one had a problem with proven pairs, only newly tested pairs.

 

It seems to me that the general opinions of players seem to be divided among those who consider this to be an issue and those who believe this isn't such a major problem, as it can be 'simply' solved by obtaining another mate - I believe it doesn't hurt to show lineages where replacing mates is highly problematic or even impossible so people can see why this is such a major problem for a lot of breeders.

[Syphoneira]

Most of us are having problem with an alarming increase in refusals during the last couple of months or so. Refusals are not only problematic for holiday lineages, but also in lineages where dragons produce offspring during the entire year. And as far as I know no one had a problem with proven pairs, only newly tested pairs.

 

It seems to me that the general opinions of players seem to be divided among those who consider this to be an issue and those who believe this isn't such a major problem, as it can be 'simply' solved by obtaining another mate - I believe it doesn't hurt to show lineages where replacing mates is highly problematic or even impossible so people can see why this is such a major problem for a lot of breeders.

 

 

 

 

Exactly - if we don't point out the tip of the iceberg sinking the game to those who apparently aren't in quite the same boat, or find it of little concern, it doesn't get noticed.

 

The rate of Refusals is ridiculous and seems to be worsening steadily, and it's drowning the fun (edit: of getting fabulous lineages and of breeding) in an ocean of stress.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Syphoneira

[Obscure_Trash]

I have to agree with yosofine.

 

We aren't saying you can't produce or discuss examples, but just using this thread as a dumping grounds to announce all your refusals isn't exactly adding to the discussion. That sounds more like something for a refusal rate experiment thread. If you get a new refusal and want to post about it here, use that as a starting point for your discussion. Just posting "just got a refusal between x and y" doesn't add much to the topic. But posting "just got a refusal between x and y. This is detrimental to my game because it took me months to get x and a year and a half to get y. DC is slow paced but this pace is so slow it may as well be moving backwards. It will not be fun to me to have to try and produce at least one more mate from one of the parents in order to continue my lineage" or whatever would be much more on topic and productive for the discussion. This thread is about how to alter or change refusals so that users can enjoy the game, not just a place to complain about recent refusals. There needs to be discussion that is happening. <3

[Syphoneira]

Lol, you just said it, Socky!

 

Isn't that what we're doing, though?

 

In mine, I was pointing out that the only source I knew of as a replacement mate for an unusual combination depending on someone having CBs of two different sprites no longer available, had provided the original dragon in 2011, doesn't appear to be playing anymore, and has yet to answer my PM.

 

It may not be possible for me to come up with that replacement, which means I still can't mate one dragon and also can't build a mate for another dragon which now also goes to waste, barring a miracle.

 

I can't produce a replacement myself because I don't have the right dragons for it and it's yet another sad and depressing waste on top of too many others.

 

When you finally come across a perfect or even suitable mate for a dragon you may have had for years, it ought to be something joyous, but the worry over Refusals is a killer...

[stagazer_7]

I actually agree that not much can be achieved with complaining, but there have been so many great ideas presented and discussed already, that I believe people are struggling to come up with anything that hasn't already been said and so pretty much all that's left is to keep pointing out why refusals have become a problem, so the topic doesn't get buried under a pile of other suggestions and disappear. Like I said in my earlier posts, I'm in favor of a BSA that would offer a solution in emergency cases, or simply making refusals temporary, lasting for a limited period of time and then resetting - sure, the pair could refuse anew, but that would be unlucky indeed and at least a persistent player would eventually be able to get an egg from the stubborn pair.

 

I acknowledge refusals as a part of a game and since a majority of my lineages come from my own dragons I usually worked around them - sure, it took a bit longer to complete a lineage when one of my pairs refused, but this used to happen few and far between so it was not such a big deal and even presented a challenge in its own way, like with 'no interest', where you need to be veeery persistent to coax a right egg from your pair, with refusals you needed a bit of luck to dodge the bullet and finish your project unscathed. Even when I got a pair where one or both of the mates were obtained elsewhere, refusals were usually so rare and unusual that when they did happen, they didn't bother me all that much, but this was only because they happened so rarely I wrote it off as plain 'bad luck'. Now, I feel that refusals have sadly become an everyday occurrence as I'm getting them almost every time I start testing new pairs and it's having a big impact on my gameplay, because a majority of it consists of working with lineages and catching CB's is only a means to get more new lineage starters. I haven't exactly counted, but I'm met with refusals in approximately 2-3 out of 10 new breedings - this isn't 'bad luck' any more, something in the game has changed and not for the better.

Edited March 20, 2015 by stagazer_7

[Tawanda001]

I feel like the message that refusals aren't working either isn't being heard or is being brushed off as an exaggeration.

I don't really know of a great way to say that this is a real problem other than providing examples. For instance is it okay to say 'hey I tried five new pairs today and got four refusals, this feels very broken'...? (because this is true, bad day for breeding today )

I think several of the suggestions presented so far would be worth trying, but it feels like this issue is not being addressed as something that needs to be fixed.

[shadowfighter]

As someone's who's dragons have refused at the worst possible times, I generally think there should be a way to negate some refusals. For example, if a pair had refused each other, after a certain cooldown period, another attempt at breeding could be made. Something around six months seems pretty reasonable, and manageable.

[KuroYukia]

As someone's who's dragons have refused at the worst possible times, I generally think there should be a way to negate some refusals. For example, if a pair had refused each other, after a certain cooldown period, another attempt at breeding could be made. Something around six months seems pretty reasonable, and manageable.

 

 

I like that idea, a cooldown period would be fun. That gives time for another mate to be found if possible. Or in 6 months just another shot at breeding and not being refused

Edited March 20, 2015 by KuroYukia

[shadowfighter]

I like that idea, a cooldown period would be fun. That gives time for another mate to be found if possible.

Exactly, and, it would be possible for the pair to refuse again, but this time, it would be permanent. I think it gives a bit more sense of "oh, okay, this is far less stressful and heartbreaking.'

[olympe]

^Making a 2nd refusal permanent doesn't solve anything for quite a lot of players, unfortunately. :/

 

That being said, breeding my holiday checkers has become almost stressful. Just this week, I bred two pairs of Val '09 x red, both pairs are 4th gen checkers. I kept my fingers crossed for both breedings, waiting for the page to load (which always seems to take endlessly). I was lucky, though, as only one pair refused - and I happen to own the parents of the red in question, so I already bred a replacement.

 

In any case, whenever I trade for holiday mates, I actually ask if I can ask for a re-breeding if I get a refusal. I never felt like I needed to do this before, maybe also due to the fact that we couldn't collect all that many holidays (save Halloweens) before. But the rate of refusals is still the main culprit IMHO.

Edited March 20, 2015 by olympe

[stagazer_7]

if a pair had refused each other, after a certain cooldown period, another attempt at breeding could be made. Something around six months seems pretty reasonable, and manageable.

Two to three months cooldown periods would be even better, this way refusals wouldn't necessarily mean a disaster for Seasonal lineages. :3

Edited March 21, 2015 by stagazer_7

[Ribombee]

I feel like the message that refusals aren't working either isn't being heard or is being brushed off as an exaggeration.

I don't really know of a great way to say that this is a real problem other than providing examples. For instance is it okay to say 'hey I tried five new pairs today and got four refusals, this feels very broken'...? (because this is true, bad day for breeding today )

I think several of the suggestions presented so far would be worth trying, but it feels like this issue is not being addressed as something that needs to be fixed.

This is exactly my sentiments on the matter. Providing examples gives a relevant and real statistic which can be tracked to show that this is an issue and that the suggestion really does need to be taken seriously. We are frustrated because we do not feel that it is being taken seriously by many and/or is being ignored.

 

For example, I finally broke my streak of 2-3 refusals as week, so I thought perhaps I had just had a run of bad luck. However, it seems now to be that I merely had a week of GOOD luck last week, as this week I am right back to two refusals. One was of no extreme consequence, as I could easly breed another mate for it. One, however, was crushing. A dragon for which I had been trying to find a mate for close to a year just refused the one I did find. It was a perfect purebred red dorsal even gen, as was the aspiring mate. I am a fairly patient person, but with the rate at which dorsals produce reds, getting a pure red dorsal lineage of any length is difficult. Finding an appropriate mate is even more difficult. Having them refuse is enough to make me want to close my browser in a fit of pique and find something less frustrating to do with my free time. I (and likely many or even most of us) play DC because it is fun and alleviates the stress of real life. Having hair-pulling moments come at so frequent a rate on a game defeats that purpose entirely.

 

We have proposed several possible solutions, any of which would be preferable to the extremely high rate of refusals we have been experiencing. At this point, it is a run-around desperate attempt to be the squeaky wheel so that it might get the proverbial oil and be fixed.

[Jazeki]

Just popping in to say that I'm neutral about removing refusals completely and would instead like to see one of the suggestions implemented.

 

I am also going to make a refusal experiments thread in DC discussion at Sock's suggestion. I will update shortly with the link.

 

UPDATE: You can find the discussion thread for refusal experiences here.

Edited March 22, 2015 by Jazeki