Refuse to Have Refusals!

[Ribombee]

This is exactly why refusals are so frustrating, and why I'm very against the idea of having refusals based on breed differences: http://dragcave.net/lineage/D7M3n

 

It took me forever to find a pair to breed it a mate. I was ecstatic to eventually get this pair:

http://dragcave.net/lineage/QV5Us

and

http://dragcave.net/lineage/MJsQg

 

Of course they refused.

 

So my options are:

1) Release the third gen, wait an entire year to get a vday from the pair that refused (since refusals are turned off on holidays), then wait ANOTHER year to get a vday egg from them.

 

2) Try to find a different magi x vday to breed to the 2nd gen vday, then have a useless 2nd gen magi from vday floating around. So that one would either have to be released, or I have to find IT a vday mate next year.

 

Either way, it's a lot of wasted effort and time. Could you imagine if that was a HOLLY checker?! People trade 2nd gen prizes for 2nd gen hollies! You could wait an entire year for a mate, trade away the most valuable lined dragon in the game, then have it refuse. Or it could be a 2nd gen prize that refused. What if you just traded a bunch of golds for that perfect 2nd gen prize to go with your prizefail? Unless you're a CB prize owner, it's probably going to be impossible to get a replacement.

 

If anything, refusals should be less likely (or nonexistant) if one of the mates is a rare or a holiday.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Then how are we stealing their eggs and such... Someone probably already asked that in the lore AMA. If thats the case as I said, then we shouldnt be able to keep them captive, unless our stealing them keep them from the knowledge they would have gained in the wild, severely hindering them in terms of their captive intelligence. God that sounds worse that the whole "Are we holding pokemon against their will" stuff. I mean we are basically taking a very intelligent creature, whose wild counterparts have a religion, language, personal lore and such, raising them to be less intelligent than their wild counter parts since we keep them away from that knowledge, and keep them tucked away to breed us babies how we want when we want and them taking them away from these parents and giving them away, abandoning them if we don't get what we want, I mean damn we are awful people.

 

Honestly that's scary then.

Everything depends on your perspective. My dragons aren't captives--they're friends or dragons simply living near me that I keep an eye on and record the life histories of. I don't fancy myself in charge of their breeding habits, I just make suggestions and they comply or ignore me as they fancy. In terms of giving away eggs, I view it as sending kids to live with foreign families so they can gain experiences I couldn't personally offer.

 

The stealing eggs from the cave thing is a bit much; I've heard it said that they're runt eggs that were abandoned, which I find super sad, but maybe they're eggs dragons are only pretending to let us 'steal' that they really want to grow close to humans. Who knows?

 

Regardless of sentience and in game lore, though, as you said the mechanic is frustrating from a purely game play point of view and that's the crux of the problem. We could all make a dozen suggestions on how to make the game more realistic that would hurt gamplay, but that's not why we're here. We're here to make the gameplay better even IF it may be a bit at odds with what's realistic... which people who support the current refusal mechanics should make note of. Gameplay trumps realism when it has to. ^^

[Pixxelation]

I do not agree with making refusals based on not being of the same breed, myself. If you'd like to go and make a new thread for that, go ahead, but I'd like to ask that we focus discussion in this thread on the suggestion at hand ;3 Thanks!

[AnanoKimi]

Regardless of sentience and in game lore, though, as you said the mechanic is frustrating from a purely game play point of view and that's the crux of the problem. We could all make a dozen suggestions on how to make the game more realistic that would hurt gamplay, but that's not why we're here. We're here to make the gameplay better even IF it may be a bit at odds with what's realistic... which people who support the current refusal mechanics should make note of. Gameplay trumps realism when it has to. ^^

THANK YOU. This whole sentience and intelligence thing has nothing to do with gameplay regardless of lore and perspective. Your perspective could be that you are some frigging dragon tamer with a whip and they are all your loyal subjects or some stuff but that does not change that refusals are an annoying game mechanic not a lore issue, not a sentience issue, a game issue. So we need to put aside our own perspective, our own vies, our own made up stories about these pixel dragons and focus on how much of the game refusals is ruining for people.

 

I give a rats behind about the lore when the the game is wonky or irking me to no end. The story of any game can be on point, if the game mechanics are crap then the game is crap. The story only adds so much value to a game. Not just for me, but for many, refusals have caused wasted partners, wasted times, frustration, and even fear of breeding properly. Some may like the "challenge" of not being able to ever breed a pair of dragons again but to many it crushes them because of all the extra running around that has to be done to get the mate again or completely change the plans they had because these two sets of pixelated information decided to not cooperate. I mean really.

 

So lets focus on this issue as a game issue. Lets leave lore and perspectives and all that junk at the door. This is a game feature. Lets deal with it as such.

Edited March 3, 2015 by AnanoKimi

[KittyHeart]

I for one would have been happier if certain breeds almost never refused each other and that only dragons that were very different from each other had a chance to refuse (maybe even smaller chance than now). And the fact that refusal stays to the end of time is also a bit silly. It should have a cool down as everything else or on valentines it is reset. There is no challenge to it, just annoyance as everyone expresses or tries to suppress by making up stories about their dragon's sentience.

[olympe]

Sometimes, through some weird kind of chance, refusals do reset. Like with the parents of this. They refused each other the first time I bred them, but when I checked back a year or so later, the refusal had been canceled for some reason. And, yes, I am 100% sure they had refused each other because I remember how bummed I was - the first offspring of my first 2nd gen silver refusing its only available mate was a rather memorable, if unpleasant, occurrence.

 

(Yes, I know they haven't bred anything but sweetlings so far. But I just tried breeding them again, again with "no egg produced", of course. But it wasn't an outright refusal any more.)

[Pixxelation]

Refusals are turned off for Holidays during their breeding seasons; the pair would still refuse if you bred them out of season. Unfortunately, that's the only way refusals can reset--Holidays.

 

Edit: Wait, the parents? That doesn't seem right o.O How long ago was this?

Edit again: Derp, was thinking grandparents for some reason when I made the first edit--remind me not to post right after waking up on school days XP Yeah, it's because refusals cancel for Holiday breeds during their breeding season.

Edited March 3, 2015 by PieMaster

[olympe]

As I said before, I can breed the parents of this sweetling now. I did just a couple of hours ago. They still need to give me a silver egg, though, but at least they're not dead-set against it any more.

[Ruby Eyes]

I think some refusals were reset at some point, back when metallic+metallic auto-refusals were removed. I'm not sure about the timelime of that though, and if that also affected metallic+holiday pairs ...

[olympe]

No, the timeline doesn't match, either: This refusal happened way after holiday x holiday or holiday x rare breeding was introduced as a feature. (Obviously - or the lineage of this sweetling wouldn't be a holiday x rare stairstep.) That's why I called this instance "some weird kind of chance". Things don't usually work out this way.

 

I just found another pairing of mine (rosebud x copper) that had refused previously but was available for breeding now. They did breed successfully on Vday, but when I tried them just now, they refused each other all over again. But it might be true that this was a new dice roll for the pairing. We need to experiment with that, I guess.

Edited March 3, 2015 by olympe

[Syphoneira]

No, the timeline doesn't match, either: This refusal happened way after holiday x holiday or holiday x rare breeding was introduced as a feature. (Obviously - or the lineage of this sweetling wouldn't be a holiday x rare stairstep.) That's why I called this instance "some weird kind of chance". Things don't usually work out this way.

 

I just found another pairing of mine (rosebud x copper) that had refused previously but was available for breeding now. They did breed successfully on Vday, but when I tried them just now, they refused each other all over again. But it might be true that this was a new dice roll for the pairing. We need to experiment with that, I guess.

 

 

 

That's interesting!

 

How long ago did the Refusals occur?

 

Were they in similar time periods?

 

 

If Refused pairs (which people would ordinarily never bother checking at the bottom to find) at some point later show as available for breeding, and they could be tried and possibly work, that would lend some hope that TJ might have done something perhaps time-related with this issue.

 

Most likely, I suppose, to just have been a glitch that occurred on the odd scroll, but it certainly would be nice *if*..

 

As far as I recall, (not yet caffeinated, though, lol,) I don't think I'd had any really essential Refusals up until they became so appallingly and increasingly frequent (right up to this ridiculous level, which I do hope doesn't continue to worsen,) and was off so much and long these past couple of years, that I'd be less likely to notice any older Refusals re-opening myself, so hope that anyone else noticing this will post here.

[olympe]

The refusal with my silver x sweetling line occurred about a two years ago (Jan 2013) and was reset after I bred the pair during the holiday breeding season the month after that. They are still breedable, though I have yet to get a silver egg from them. Unfortunately, I only realised this reset sometime late in 2014, and quite accidentally.

 

 

The refusal with my verdigris x rosebud happened late in 2014, probably in October (soon after the copper grew up). Once again, breeding the pair during the holiday breeding season reset the refusal - but a fresh breeding rewarded me with another refusal.

 

The key to this odd behavior seems to be breeding the refused mates during the holiday breeding season. I'm sure going to try with another refused pair (sweetling x silver 2nd gens) next year to see if that's the case.

[vulturicacid]

@olympe Holidays do reset on their breeding season, I'm sure I read it somewhere

~~

I'd rather go with the longer waiting time to breed those dragons again. Refusals are terrible! I have to catch and influence three mates to my Sith Emperor. Refusals are annoying and delaying, and could really be re-worked on.

[AzureZeroX]

In less then 2 weeks I've had 6--6 in a row. Never have I had so many refusals. Twice with Tsunamis, once with a pillow, a marrow, and two Desipis.

 

All with my prizes lines that I really want to continue these lineages with =/ Now I need to hunt down caveborns of some of these to find them again. I just don't understand the point of them, i really don't. Can we have something that can reset them? Because its annoying when I try to breed for someone and I'm met with a refusal. It does nothing to make the game challenging its simply a frustrating and game breaking mechanic.

[Fuzzbucket]

@olympe Holidays do reset on their breeding season, I'm sure I read it somewhere

~~

I'd rather go with the longer waiting time to breed those dragons again. Refusals are terrible! I have to catch and influence three mates to my Sith Emperor. Refusals are annoying and delaying, and could really be re-worked on.

NO - holidays who refuse out of season will breed in their season. After the season is done they will refuse again. That isn't what happened with Olympe.

 

But I wonder if so many refusals WITH PRIZES is a ratio thing. Everyone is breeding them, so there are just too many happening for the ratios to cope with - so refusals start. I'm not breeding mine just now, because I would have said I'd seen that soon after prizes were handed out last year...

[djengis]

I've had 4 refusals in 2 days

[Fuzzbucket]

5 in two weeks (I breed a lot...) - BUT - four were with holidays

[AzureZeroX]

NO - holidays who refuse out of season will breed in their season. After the season is done they will refuse again. That isn't what happened with Olympe.

 

But I wonder if so many refusals WITH PRIZES is a ratio thing. Everyone is breeding them, so there are just too many happening for the ratios to cope with - so refusals start. I'm not breeding mine just now, because I would have said I'd seen that soon after prizes were handed out last year...

That's actually a valid thought I didn't consider... but it doesn't really change the frustration that's involved. ):

 

 

[Nine]

I was prepared to write up a long post detailing why I support the eradication of refusals, but then I realized that refusals suck so much, they don't deserve the effort on my part.

 

They're not fun, interesting, or a sensible challenge that feels rewarding in the end. They're like your computer shutting down and erasing what you were working on, forcing you to start over. Annoying and time consuming, and the end result isn't any greater than it would've been (maybe even worse).

 

Would be very happy to see them removed. Or have a BSA to undo them or protect against them. Or just... yeah, removed.

[Pixxelation]

I was prepared to write up a long post detailing why I support the eradication of refusals, but then I realized that refusals suck so much, they don't deserve the effort on my part.

 

They're not fun, interesting, or a sensible challenge that feels rewarding in the end. They're like your computer shutting down and erasing what you were working on, forcing you to start over. Annoying and time consuming, and the end result isn't any greater than it would've been (maybe even worse).

 

Would be very happy to see them removed. Or have a BSA to undo them or protect against them. Or just... yeah, removed.

Omg that first part made me laugh more than it should have

 

That is a really, really stellar analogy! And it's completely true; sometimes you have to redo a little bit because you "saved" recently (have the parents, and it's a common you can replace), and others, you have to trade an arm and a leg to catch up on lost progress, for no greater reward. The feature really needs to be modified or retired, IMO.

Edited March 5, 2015 by PieMaster

[Slaskia]

I would also love to undo, or just get rid of refusals. I'm feeling the frustration of getting refusals thanks to a 2nd gen alt thuwed I got during Vals. He's already refused two mates and the female I got to make offspring EG recently I fear he will refuse that one as well.

 

What makes it even more frustrating as I have two requests for offspring from him to fill...and I don't like leaving IOUs hanging.

[Fiona]

And it's completely true; sometimes you have to redo a little bit because you "saved" recently (have the parents, and it's a common you can replace), and others, you have to trade an arm and a leg to catch up on lost progress, for no greater reward.

Or you PM the person who bred you one parent as a mate for your other and she replaces it free of charge because refusals are frustrating and disappointing for everyone. Why make someone pay a second arm and leg for another egg, when they already paid you the first arm and leg? That would leave them legless and armless, and only because their dragons were little brats.

 

So yeah. I hate refusals so much that I replace one of the refusers free of charge. And have a good talking to the parents. Little brats.

[Oddsoxdi]

AUGH!! My CB Val '09 and the other male GoN just REFUSED!! The other Val '09 was bred to a GoN on Valentine's to make the Val - I don't NEED another Val - I needed the Avatar, dammit! Please make this reversible somehow!

[Obscure_Trash]

After following along with the various refusal redo topics, I've come around to supporting the removal of rejections for many of the previously listed reasons. A BSA at the very least, but I wouldn't object to no refusals especially with just how big breeding and lineages have become.

[AnanoKimi]

Or you PM the person who bred you one parent as a mate for your other and she replaces it free of charge because refusals are frustrating and disappointing for everyone. Why make someone pay a second arm and leg for another egg, when they already paid you the first arm and leg? That would leave them legless and armless, and only because their dragons were little brats.

 

So yeah. I hate refusals so much that I replace one of the refusers free of charge. And have a good talking to the parents. Little brats.

There are some that go inactive though like what if a few days after that they have an internet issue or its their last breeding they will do before a hiatus and soon their gone. Anything can happen within the time frame of growing the dragon to adulthood.

 

on top of that not all users are so kind seeing as some breedings are much much harder to do and/or complete than others. Some more common/uncommon mates possibly but mostly rare mates or special mates like prize line mates or spriter alt mates are much more difficult to come across. Of course it all depends on who you made the deal with of course on whether or not you will need to pay again to get a replacement.

 

of couse as with it all, refusals must go. A complete overhaul and maybe even some retroactive action making it so previous refusals have a new chance. A month of no interests is much better than having to depend on how many valentines you have in the hopes of getting it right. If not you have to wait another year before giving it another go. That's too much and super ridiculous. Just get rid of it all.