Refuse to Have Refusals!

[Syphoneira]

My point exactly!

 

Purely focusing on game mechanics, I've already stated (further up the thread) that this type of game mechanic brings nothing but frustration. The fact that this is not solveable by using a potion, bsa, raising level, advancing further into the main quest or any other typical thing you might encounter in other games. That is, the fact this is a NEVER, EVER, EVER, NOT IN YOUR DREAMS situation, is what makes the game frustrating.

 

I'm currently working through an IOU and have been for the past few months, without managing the tinsel egg I promised. I'm getting either no interest, no egg, or the egg of the mate specie (nebula). Is it frustrating? Yes, specially so since it is the other part of an IOU I received. But I know eventually I'll get the egg I'm trying for. It's a simple; "no prize, keep trying". You have to wait for a week to try again. I think that is a good game mechanic. Doesn't make things specially easy while giving you a chance to try again in the future.

 

Refusals are not like that. Refusals mean you're not getting, ever, a second chance. It doesn't add anything to the game, not even challenge. Challenging is trying to hunt silvers. Training to become a better hunter. Creating special lineages can be challenging.

Refusals remind me to the moment when I had to change my telephone's ringtone because of stupid Movistar and Vodaphone calling me at all hours. I actually developed anxiety when I heard the tune. Refusals are like that. After so many refusals, the first time you try out a new pair I feel the same level of anxiety. Games should not evoke such emotions. Specially a simple collecting game.

 

I would simply be done with them. We already have two other game mechanics that affect breeding (no egg, no interest), and a third which can be frustrating enough (always breeding the same type of dragon, specially with ubercommon new breeds). I don't think we need this.

 

But, if we can't just be done with them, a BSA, or a cooldown, or something that could give us another chance at breeding would work much better than this "ha ha, you loose". At least the mechanic would be more meaningful than it is right now.

 

 

 

 

Applauds!

 

I'm actually relieved that, due to the New Release, I have a chance to put off trying to breed a new pairing (for a lineage which I had been trying to put together with an unsuitable multi-gen mate, which didn't work, and which now I MAY be able to redo properly, barring Refusals) using a properly suitable mate I've been wanting for I'm not sure how long, which better new mate grew up recently, because I'm so not looking forward to another Refusal, something which also definitely knocked out a good deal of the joy of actually getting that egg, because of the stress of Refusals and the negative associations which are building up - and becoming engrained - with the mere thought of lineage-making.

 

On the other hand, I have the worry of a prospective Refusal until I do try to breed them, and the same with a lovely Holiday line Shimmer hatchy I was recently gifted, where it's 2 strikes and I'm out.

 

As has been pointed out, for most of us, Refusals are not a challenge, because a challenge is something you can hope to overcome, and there seems no logical point to many of us to simply randomly shut down various of important game components in these areas where we are attempting to create something we think interesting or beautiful.

 

This is not a short-term, level-up kind of game where you can start over after finishing or just not bother with anymore, but one which people may play as long as dragons roam the DC sky and fansites run, with many players having been here for as long as 5, 6 or 7 years, some even from DC's inception in 2007.

 

Anything that destroys the fun in a game for a significant proportion of the players, especially when it's integral to keeping many long-term members interested, is probably not a Good Thing...

[Brite]

I agree with not putting in so much reality in the game. We've had way too many people argue "Sorry, sometimes you can't force people to fall in love or get the slightest physical" while I partially agree and understand how that is (because there are people that I wouldn't even think about having a relationship with and no magic in the world is going to make me change my mind), I don't think it's necessary for the game. I would like to see a second chance in starting generations where dragons have refused.

 

After so many refusals, the first time you try out a new pair I feel the same level of anxiety. Games should not evoke such emotions. Specially a simple collecting game.

 

Same here. I've gotten sick of seeing the "Lulz nope! Not gonna happen!" result with many pairs I planned on trying out.

[Zafire]

I am with you guys. I don't like the refusal. It's hard enough to catch some dragons (like Golds and Silver) and then when you finally get a pair, they refuse each other. I don't even have a CB gold or Silver and I am dreaded the day I get one and then get the message that they have refused each other

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Please, remove them, change how they work, give us a way to reset them, something, anything. Because when dragons like these refuse each other, it adds nothing to my gameplay experience. In fact, it detracts from it quite badly. What's the point of putting in the time, effort, and work to collect special dragons if random chance can say "haha, you can never use them, better luck never?" :/

[Ribombee]

And just how do you know that? Have you actually tried? Probably not, but the point is, nobody would be willing to do that, but that doesn't mean it would be impossible if anybody actually tried. (Not that I'm volunteering, mind you.)

Actually, someone did try it. He was a nut job of a Soviet scientist, but he did try.

 

The real issue is that the genes are different enough that they simply can't make a viable zygote. the correct 'information' for a living being simply cannot be made from the combination. When species are different enough, the egg and sperm do not even recognize one another at a biochemical level.

 

With horses and mules, they are similar enough that they can produce offspring. The reason they are sterile is because there are an odd number of chromosomes. During meiosis (the process by which reproductive cells--eggs and sperm--are made), chromosomes normally line up with their 'partner'. Horses have 32 sets of chromosomes (2 of each kind = 64 total). Donkeys have 31 sets (62 total). Mules have 63 because it got 31 (1 of each kind) from the donkey parent and 32 from the horse parent. Normally an animal would get one of each kind from each parent, resulting in an even number. There's an extra chromosome floating about without a partner to line up with. This causes problems with making viable sperm and eggs, rendering the animal sterile.

 

For the mule, it is not a huge deal for life because all of the genes necessary for living healthily are THERE. They are just arranged differently on the chromosomes. Many genes require two copies (one on each of the partner chromosomes) to produce enough of the protein product for the organism to live. With mules, they are being produced, just on different chromosomes.

 

When you try to breed two species that DON'T have the same important basic genes, you either get no offspring at all, or it dies very early on in development.

 

I'm an evolutionary genomics entomologist. This is exactly the kind of thing I study in true fruit flies, which are close enough to have viable offspring (though with a decreased enough fitness that it behooves them not to interbreed in the wild). Early on in a species split, hybridization is very generally possible. Genes significant to the very life of the animal have usually not changed enough at that point. I'm talking at the genus level here. Beyond that, it's generally not going to result in an offspring. So if we had any Homo genus relatives still around, we might be able to hybridize. People often forget that the successful hybridizations in animals (plants are an entirely different story, as they are much more capable of dealing with chromosomal and gene abnormalities) are almost exclusively the same genus. Panthera includes both lions and tigers (ligers). Felis includes most of the species which are hybridized to domestic cats. Savannah cats come from two different genus parents, but they are within the same subfamily (next step up, still very closely related, and even then it's very difficult to get them to reproduce successfully). Canis includes all of the dog hybridizations. The more closely related two species are, the more likely they are to be able to produce offspring, as the genes have not changed so much from one another that a zygote cannot be formed/embryo raised.

 

If we go into true realism, we would have to incorporate this, to be honest. DragonNighthowler had an excellent point. The differences in development genes alone would cause serious issues in developing hybrid offspring between dragons such as winged versus non-winged ones. Differences in development genes are a pretty surefire way to keep from producing a viable offspring, and those are exactly what are necessary to produce limbs. It would definitely not be as simple as you randomly inherit the looks of one parent or the other, such as we have now.

 

The game is elegantly simple, which is what makes it fun for me. I deal with very complex things all day, I'm frustrated as all get out about some genes not cloning out like I desperately need them to, and I don't need to be set to the same level of frustration and near tears by a game. Sometimes it's just annoying, when I have the parents and can rebreed. In other cases, it's highly unlikely I will ever get another mate. I've played many animal breeding SIM games, and the reason DC holds my interest is because of its simplicity and open playing style. I can do what ever I want with my dragons and still 'win'. I don't have to try to breed the best, compete, etc. I can just relax, trade, breed, and have fun extending whatever lineages I like. All of that comes crashing down when a long generation pair or a particularly rare pair (such as a metal from a very common or a prize pair to produce checkers) refuses.

 

After having just spent months, even years, tracking down a mate, bam! Refusal. You aren't going to be nearly as lucky getting people to rebreed a mate for you when it is a prize dragon or a metal from a very common. I know there are more people with prizes now, so it is a bit easier to get them, but it's still going to take a lot of CB metals, another 2G prize, or luck in one of the giveaways to get one. Then to get one of the exact right combination is even more difficult. If it's from crossing to a common breed, it might literally be the only one the breeder ever produces. With spriter alt lineages, the same is true. Most people either get a 2nd gen by pure luck during holiday AP crawling, trade an arm and a leg for one, or are lucky enough to get on one of the lists for them. I know at least one spriter doesn't rebreed for refusals. Thuweds are another similar story. Getting on the Thuwed list is no easy task. Getting on it twice is even more difficult. So if you two second gen Thuweds refuse, sorry, too bad. Maybe if you have a ton of CB golds sitting around or are a prize owner, you can trade for another one, but that is assuming someone is even willing to trade at the time.

 

I'm a prize owner. I can get most anything I want (not saying that to be elitist, just to make a point). Of all the people to complain, I should be the least concerned about refusals because I can more easily trade for what I need by offering really juicy trade bait. Even with this, it's terribly frustrating and sometimes even impossible. I had FIVE different people plus myself trying to get a silver from male black tea for me. Someone else finally got one and traded it to me. Now, in this particular case, a refusal wouldn't have been the end of the world. I could have bred another black tea from silver and just abandoned my original (which kind of would have made the whole thing a moot point, because I just wanted a mate for the dragon, not to extend the lineage forever). Had I been wanting an even gen arrow pattern (two silver parents, one from male silver x female black tea and the other from the opposite genders) and they had refused, I would be pretty sorry out of luck. Sure, I could have continued to try breeding my silvers and black teas for months on end with likely no result, but why put myself through that kind of bother, only to have to worry about them refusing again? I've had that happen before. I abandoned the line. It was just too insanely frustrating.

[stagazer_7]

when dragons like these refuse each other

That's a tragedy of Shakespearean proportions. My sincere condolences.

 

It would make my day if one of the offered solutions to this issue would be accepted, being anxious every time I try out a new pair of dragons is exhausting and I don't feel the game would be any worse off if there was a way to make refusals less permanent. A BSA would be really nice, but maybe simply making refusals last for around 3 months or so and then fade might work just as well.

Edited May 6, 2015 by stagazer_7

[Syphoneira]

I have new pairings I ought to be eager to try and haven't yet - this is really adding stress to and taking a lot of the fun right out of not only breeding but of making fabulous AP finds or otherwise obtaining the perfect mate for that dragon who's waited years for one...

 

I do think Refusals are pointless and would like to see them entirely eliminated if it weren't that some people want them for themselves, but for the rest of us, we do need some means of negating at least the most disastrous ones.

 

I was recently gifted a lovely 3rd gen Prize, which Refused its Common mate first try.

 

Sure, no big deal in that case; I certainly have plenty more Whites, just wasted a week where I'd likely have had a wrong/no egg result anyway, but - what's the point?

 

Doesn't make anything more interesting or fun, it's just something additionally annoying when I already haven't been able to breed anything worth gifting the rather lengthy (edit: list of) people I'd most like to send something particularly nice to for ages.

 

And it quite frankly strikes me as senseless to randomly shut down bits within the more creative areas of the game, when we're trying to make something we think will be pretty or interesting, and when this may also be a lot more complex than a simple 2-breed stair.

Edited May 9, 2015 by Syphoneira

[Tamahaganae]

I support ANYTHING that will get rid of refusals.

 

This winter I had this seasonal stairstep lineage broken at 19 generations. I have always bred a test with the next season (while I still had time to re-breed the lineage in case of refusal) but this fall I completely forgot.

 

I have 3 CB autumn females that haven't already been used and he refused them ALL ;_; So now I have to wait until fall to pick this up again - a whole year lost.

 

While it's not nearly as upsetting as the many people with completely irreplaceable refused mates, it's still infuriating.

[Lavinia]

For a friend of mine, refusals are her favorite feature of the site. She disliked DC for a while for the idea of us forcing our dragons to do all these actions... until I told her about refusals (and shortly thereafter she decided to join and make a scroll). She thinks it gives the dragons some personality and realism, occasionally going against our wishes.

[Syphoneira]

Because some people do like them, most of us are merely asking for some means of negating at least the worst ones for those who find the rate of Refusals are ruining the fun of breeding and of getting gorgeous new dragons and long-awaited/hard-to-come-by/impossible to replace mates.

 

Lineage breeding is the creative part of DC for regular players, and some of us particularly hate to have arbitrary shut-downs in creative areas.

 

 

[Birdwhispers]

I wouldn't care if refusals were gotten rid of completely, but I also like the ideas of "Re-familiarize" or any sort of removal action (as long as it is not a one shot thing!!). Either that, or it works like option number 3 and just requires the user to wait a while before they can breed that pair again but it isn't forever.

 

I've been having a lot more refusals lately, and while most of them are just minor annoyances, I've had some pretty nasty ones too. Most notably, my only two CB Silvers. I doubt I'll get another CB Silver for a long long time since I'm not the fastest catcher and I just happened to get really lucky catching the two I have. I'd really like some way of working with/getting rid of refusals because all it has succeeded at doing is making people stress out whenever they want to breed anything and that shouldn't be right for a game that people play to relax from the pressures of real world problems.

[DangerDragon]

No means no.

No doesn't mean maybe, no means no. The dragons said no.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

No means no.

No doesn't mean maybe, no means no. The dragons said no.

Ah yes, the dragons said no. On a game where we can stab, neglect, abandon, sell, and give stupid names to them / their offspring without any risk of the dragons getting mad.

 

Gameplay > realism when it has to. You're making it sound like these are real, sentient beings when they are pixels on a screen (and kinda insulting anti rape movements in the process by comparing the two...). You want to think of them as more? Then fine, don't use any refusal removal option presented, but don't let that restrict the rest of us. Personally I'm halfway in both camps; some refusals I use as inspiration for descriptions, but there are others that really do frustrate me to no end and lead to me just stabbing the bloody things because they literally have no other use for me now. I'd rather have a messy dragon of the same type then a pretty lined eternal reminder of past frustrations.

 

There is a compromise for both parties. Let's aim for it, please, before more people suffer another prizekin refusing a matching mate, or a GoN refusing a CB Metal, or a high gen Holiday you caught rejecting that perfect mate you found years ago, or...

Edited May 13, 2015 by angelicdragonpuppy

[dragongrrl]

I think the idea of having a BSA is probably the best way to deal with the problem.

 

Since couples who hate each other then find themselves in love, at least as a common fictional plot device, I don't see why there couldn't be some spell, love potion, dream or other device that would allow a pair that initially refused to come together at long last.

 

Time changes everything. <3

[olympe]

I think the idea of having a BSA is probably the best way to deal with the problem.

 

Since couples who hate each other then find themselves in love, at least as a common fictional plot device, I don't see why there couldn't be some spell, love potion, dream or other device that would allow a pair that initially refused to come together at long last.

 

Time changes everything. <3

I agree completely with that statement. A BSA would probably be best, or something time-based. Like, a refused mate gets back on the breeding list after X weeks. (I'd suggest 10 to 12 weeks, personally.)

[Bigbite]

I agree completely with that statement. A BSA would probably be best, or something time-based. Like, a refused mate gets back on the breeding list after X weeks. (I'd suggest 10 to 12 weeks, personally.)

Love this idea.

[DangerDragon]

Ah yes, the dragons said no. On a game where we can stab, neglect, abandon, sell, and give stupid names to them / their offspring without any risk of the dragons getting mad.

 

Gameplay > realism when it has to. You're making it sound like these are real, sentient beings when they are pixels on a screen (and kinda insulting anti rape movements in the process by comparing the two...). You want to think of them as more? Then fine, don't use any refusal removal option presented, but don't let that restrict the rest of us. Personally I'm halfway in both camps; some refusals I use as inspiration for descriptions, but there are others that really do frustrate me to no end and lead to me just stabbing the bloody things because they literally have no other use for me now. I'd rather have a messy dragon of the same type then a pretty lined eternal reminder of past frustrations.

 

There is a compromise for both parties. Let's aim for it, please, before more people suffer another prizekin refusing a matching mate, or a GoN refusing a CB Metal, or a high gen Holiday you caught rejecting that perfect mate you found years ago, or...

Hmmmm... Then we can all agree to make CB Golds more common, it wont hurt anyone, don't restrict our gameplay if you want to keep CB Golds ultra rare.

 

I've had refusals, but I don't QQ about them. Its just pixels, nothing to QQ about.

[diaveborn]

Frustrations that happen in a game are still frustrations for some people.

[pinkgothic]

Hmmmm... Then we can all agree to make CB Golds more common, it wont hurt anyone, don't restrict our gameplay if you want to keep CB Golds ultra rare.

 

I've had refusals, but I don't QQ about them. Its just pixels, nothing to QQ about.

 

While that's an interesting approach in its own right (and even has its own thread), that doesn't take care of people who want to breed, say, their only CB prize with their only CB Guardian of Nature with the opposite gender, or 'less' drastically anyone trying to breed their CB (non-Halloween) holidays with a CB Guardian of Nature; or anything else that's either literally unreplacable (frills... bright pinks...).

Edited May 14, 2015 by pinkgothic

[DangerDragon]

I was a bit mean, I am sorry

[AnanoKimi]

I agree completely with that statement. A BSA would probably be best, or something time-based. Like, a refused mate gets back on the breeding list after X weeks. (I'd suggest 10 to 12 weeks, personally.)

I second the latter suggestion of the dragon comes back on the breeding list after x amount of weeks. I still don't see how the removal of refusals would be detrimental. I dont see how anyone benefits from them and how their removal could affect the game play? Even Olympes suggestion of refused mates come back after a refusal cool down can be changed to something like no more refusals, no interests takes lets say 10 days too coll down, No egg takes maybe 8, and regular successful breeding takes 7 days to cool down. I don't know but I don't think refusals need to be a thing anymore. They are really just a big annoyance to this game and it makes many people start to fear and even avoid breeding because they are not sure that they will be able to propperly create their lineages anymore. Thats one of the reasons I have held off on creating anything because I don't want to have to go through the trouble of finding a mate again, re bredding, pulling my hair out over how I am going to replace a super hard to get mate, or simply giving up because the only two I do have cant breed and I have absolutely no way to replace them.

[olympe]

I don't think we need different cooldown rates for no egg/no interest. Just leave them as they are. (Keep it simple...)

[AnanoKimi]

I don't think we need different cooldown rates for no egg/no interest. Just leave them as they are. (Keep it simple...)

Seems legit. I think we can replace refusals with no eggs as well as no interest and just keep them at regula cook down then. Less frustration and still some chance of getting a breeding out of that pair even if it takes a while without the unnecessary need to hoard a bunch of dragons you might not want for a bsa with a crazy cool down.

[stagazer_7]

I don't think we need different cooldown rates for no egg/no interest. Just leave them as they are. (Keep it simple...)

Agreed. A simple BSA like ADP's Reconcile or making refusals temporary instead of permanent would solve every problem that currently exists with this feature.

[UniHorsie]

Yah I think This should be added... the not forever refused one as I had the sameroblem too...