Refuse to Have Refusals!

[Sir Barton]

Mythical creatures with implied sentience in a pixel fantasy world where magics and mana and mother friggin DRAGONS exits. Yeah, mhm, logic

 

Refusals add no value to the game other than frustration. No eggs or disinterest is a much better way to deal with not everything going your way. Refusals are mostly permanent completely frustrating factors that really at this point are moot and no longer needed. My opinion though.

I completely share your opinion. At the very least allow for an opt out for those who are finding the game more frustrating than fun. Those who enjoy the challenge of replacing dragons who refuse can continue to have their fun, while who want to save themselves the extra dragon drama can one cup out of a already full pot.

 

I play this for fun. I'm at the point that I'm afraid to breed new pairs. Refusals have become a game breaking mechanic that offers no positives that I can see. It's already hard to get eggs from many pairs, how is making that impossible good for anyone?

 

[Syphoneira]

I have never been able to see any point in Refusals myself - our dragons never die of old age or become ill once adult, thank goodness, and Refusals seem pretty darned forever in regard to apparently immortal reptiles.

 

And I see no reason why so many people should have some of their most desirable and often long-awaited breeding and lineage plans permanently fouled up.

 

Perhaps there are other games where access to certain things are randomly blocked from players forever, but I can't think how this adds to the playing experience for most of us.

 

Some people apparently do like Refusals and the waste of dragons for which suitable mates may then never be available, which is the only reason I'd go with something allowing them choice.

 

But from my personal standpoint, I'd say they're a useless frustration.

 

The high number of no interest and no egg results so often affecting many dragons provides more than enough delay and frustration without having permanent effects bringing stress to occasions of what should be joy in finally lucking into that impossible-to-find mate and plans in reach of final completion in creating another lineage stage/egg production to a grinding and permanent halt.

 

This strikes me as more of an inefficiency than anything else.

 

Many of us are here specifically to relax and have fun while collecting and breeding dragons, and this wantonly destroys potential then going to waste - and rather too much of both the relaxation and the fun.

 

As has been pointed out, Refusals were initiated at a point where lineages were not an issue and when relatively few sprites were available but often readily so - times have changed and now lineages are a major reason for many long-term members to remain and play, and many sprites and specific lineages are exceeding difficult to obtain or limited, as with Holidays.

 

 

Hi, bouken!

 

Indeed, Reconcile does sound like the best solution in considering also those who wish to continue having Refusals - although many people have built up a large number of essential-pairing Refusals over time and I'd like to see a shorter cool-down/fewer restrictions than have in some cases been suggested for that.

 

People aren't likely to bother using Reconcile on an easy-to-come-by CB Common mate, but they certainly would on the complex matched pairings/hard/impossible to replace sprites which are the only option they have and may ever have.

 

Having something randomly spoiling progress possibly forever and continually worrying about it with every especially personally valued new acquisition 'just because' isn't my idea of recreation...

 

 

 

Edit: lol, totally ninja'd by Sir Barton who, as usual, just said what I wanted to only better and more concisely!

 

But I really, seriously needed to go make coffee, and if I'd known, I'd have brought an extra cup.

Edited March 1, 2015 by Syphoneira

[angelicdragonpuppy]

The thing about making refusals opt in, though, is that they probably won't really be opt in. It's easy to say "if you don't like it, don't use it," but people who willingly handicap themselves (by keeping it on) are likely to fall behind other players / annoy those they might take up IOUs with ("what do you mean the dragons you promised to breed for me refused?? Why did you have refusals on?!") / experience other negatives that sort of force their hand in turning them off. It's one thing to keep the same hardship for everyone, another to willingly impose it on yourself when everyone else is surging ahead without it.

 

So, while I personally hate refusals, if there are enough people who want them around, then I think a change to how it works or a way to reset it is better than removing them entirely.

[Reidragon]

Mythological creatures with implied (or in some cases, explicit) sentience.

 

In any case, I still stand by my stance: Refusals need to stay as a factor of the game, but mechanics to reverse the most frustrating ones should be available in a limited fashion that make players really consider which pair to use that feature on.

This

 

I do not want them totally done away with because I like the challenge they provide. I think it would be nice to have some option to replace irreplaceable refusal pairings like in the cb radient angel case above though.

Edited March 1, 2015 by Reidragon

[CNR4806]

Mythical creatures with implied sentience in a pixel fantasy world where magics and mana and mother friggin DRAGONS exits. Yeah, mhm, logic

 

Refusals add no value to the game other than frustration. No eggs or disinterest is a much better way to deal with not everything going your way. Refusals are mostly permanent completely frustrating factors that really at this point are moot and no longer needed. My opinion though.

The word "sentience" does not change its meaning when you put a bunch of fancy modifiers to the world setting. A land of magic sentient colorful ponies doesn't mean the ponies are unable to love or hate each other.

 

I'm not going to attempt swaying your personal opinion on refusals "adding no value to the game" though. I see the value of refusals and how it can be improved to make for better overall gameplay and that's enough for me.

 

I completely share your opinion. At the very least allow for an opt out for those who are finding the game more frustrating than fun. Those who enjoy the challenge of replacing dragons who refuse can continue to have their fun, while who want to save themselves the extra dragon drama can one cup out of a already full pot.

 

The problem with an "easy-mode switch" is that you're essentially creating two sets of rules on one site. It introduces needless chaos and handicaps players not using the switch not only in the game, but also in the social aspect of the game.

 

While I don't want to jump down the slippery slope, any introduction of such easy-mode switches is also going to set a really, really bad example for the future of the game.

Edited March 3, 2015 by CNR4806

[Fuzzbucket]

This

 

I do not want them totally done away with because I like the challenge they provide. I think it would be nice to have some option to replace irreplaceable refusal pairings like in the cb radient angel case above though.

This. I think taking them away would be - well, boring. I prefer the fleshcrownes' "marital counselling" option, myself.

 

So hit me.

[olympe]

Although I could do quite well without refusals, especially considering how badly some dragons breed, not to mention how hard some dragons are to replace, I think that a general overhaul with "no refusals ever!" might go down badly.

 

Personally, I'd prefer a BSA ("in vitro"? ) that allows us to get one (non-holiday) egg per use from dragons that refused each other previously. Or a different BSA that prevents refusals for a certain pairing.

Edited March 1, 2015 by olympe

[JavaTigress]

The word "sentience" does not change its meaning when you put a bunch of fancy modifiers to the world setting. A land of magic sentient colorful ponies doesn't mean the ponies are unable to love or hate each other.

 

I'm not going to attempt swaying your personal opinion on refusals "adding no value to the game" though. I see the value of refusals and how it can be improved to make for better overall gameplay and that's enough for me.

 

 

 

The problem with an "easy-mode switch" is that you're essentially creating two sets of rules on one site. It introduces needless chaos and handicaps players not using the switch not only in the game, but also in the social aspect of the game.

 

While I don't want to jump down the slippery slope but, any introduction of such easy-mode switches is also going to set a really, really bad example for the future of the game.

I have to say that I agree with your point on a 'no refusals mode'.

 

HOWEVER. It seems to me that, even if we are arguing that dragons are sentient ( WHICH I personally DO agree with also), that they live a very long time. OR at least, that is what is implied. OUGHTN'T that make it all the more possible that at SOME point in their lives, they could change their minds about that dragon they used to NOT be able to stand? Forever is an awfully long time... especially when you live that long. Change of Heart happens sometimes with humans, so why NOT with dragons?

 

My Point?

 

I wouldn't MIND refusals so much IF they weren't absolute and permanent.

 

SO, like a few others have said, I support a BSA of some sort to be able to 'undo' the ones that cannot be replaced otherwise, rather than totally removing them outright.

Edited March 1, 2015 by Silverswift

[Ansela Jonla]

How about a "Matchmaker" BSA, to "cancel" Refusals?

 

It would be given to the Black Tea Dragons. Their pleasant scent would calm two disagreeable dragons long enough for them to talk their problems out and agree to a fresh start. Drawbacks would be both time-based, i.e. the refusal had to be over X period of time ago, and frequency-based, i.e. you can only do this a certain number of times per pair.

[Fuzzbucket]

How about a "Matchmaker" BSA, to "cancel" Refusals?

 

It would be given to the Black Tea Dragons. Their pleasant scent would calm two disagreeable dragons long enough for them to talk their problems out and agree to a fresh start. Drawbacks would be both time-based, i.e. the refusal had to be over X period of time ago, and frequency-based, i.e. you can only do this a certain number of times per pair.

There are already at least 2 suggested BSA threads for this; Valentines and Fleshcrownes.

[JavaTigress]

There are already at least 2 suggested BSA threads for this; Valentines and Fleshcrownes.

THIS.

 

BUT if I can say so my personal support would go to the suggestion for Valentines.

 

I do not care for the 'one shot and if it fails you are out of luck' aspect that the artist for the flesh crownes prefers. I have this one dragon that has refused MULTIPLE mates on me. THAT said, even the Flesh Crowne suggestion, with its faults, would be better than what we have now... which is no recourse at all other than replacing the offending dragons.

[LibbyLishly]

There are already at least 2 suggested BSA threads for this; Valentines and Fleshcrownes.

There was also one I made for Whites a LONG time ago (and another one, also for Whites, even farther back than that), with the argument that healing magic could also equate healing relationships, but most people disagreed with my opinion on that particular breed. I still support ANYTHING that will give us more than a one-shot chance at fixing a refusal.

[Fuzzbucket]

I guess the single shot idea is a shame - but it is still more INTERESTING than the Valentine's one, IMHO.

[KittyHeart]

I am in full support for this. If there was any logical sense behind refusals I would be fine with it but having dragons of the same species refuse while stuff like water dragons and wyverns can breed to their hearts content makes no sense! I think they should redo the whole refusal thing. Make it that non-related species have a higher likelihood in refusals and the closer the species are to each other, the less likely the refusal up until breeding of the same species there is only a very small percentage that they would refuse. There is so little interesting mechanics that is going for this game, can they at least fix those that could have brought some depth to it?

[AnanoKimi]

I am in full support for this. If there was any logical sense behind refusals I would be fine with it but having dragons of the same species refuse while stuff like water dragons and wyverns can breed to their hearts content makes no sense! I think they should redo the whole refusal thing. Make it that non-related species have a higher likelihood in refusals and the closer the species are to each other, the less likely the refusal up until breeding of the same species there is only a very small percentage that they would refuse. There is so little interesting mechanics that is going for this game, can they at least fix those that could have brought some depth to it?

I.... don't know about that...

 

The problem with your suggestion is that many like to breed different breed more often than not due to checkered lineages or complimenting colors/poses. Many breeding projects that consist of different breeds (Such as my moonstone x white project) would end up getting more refusals as opposed to PB (Purebred) dragons. It would make those lines harder to create and even harder to trade for. So I would say no to that...

 

I would like a mostly overhaul though. The sentience we give these dragons is mostly our own I mean for Pete's sake Drakes have the intelligence of a dog. The most I hear coming out of their telepathic minds is things like Doug from UP.

 

I see these dragons having the same intelligence as pokemon where they can learn and obey commands and have basic problem solving skills but only things like holidays having more human like sentience. And even then out holidays would not be the originals, the true holidays. I would see TJ's holidays being the true holidays the ones we see talking in the stories and such. And even the two headed dragons like the bloodscales who argue and love riddles would still have a limited intelligence and more primal mentality than that of a human.

 

So closing your self off to removing or revamping something as frustrating and heartbreaking as refusals just because your dragon my bark up slightly smarter things than Doug is a bit unfair to the rest of us. If you enjoy the challenge of never being able to breed a pair ever again thats you man, but honestly it seems like the rest of us would like to be able to continue our breeding projects, continue being able to breed and play safely as opposed to sitting there crossing our fingers, offering to every existing God in the universe for the pair you're about to try wont refuse and force you to start over again.

[Ribombee]

Generally speaking, checkers are already harder to find mates for than purebreds (I'm looking at you, metal checkers!), so making checkers more likely to refuse would be even more frustrating than it already is.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

I am in full support for this. If there was any logical sense behind refusals I would be fine with it but having dragons of the same species refuse while stuff like water dragons and wyverns can breed to their hearts content makes no sense! I think they should redo the whole refusal thing. Make it that non-related species have a higher likelihood in refusals and the closer the species are to each other, the less likely the refusal up until breeding of the same species there is only a very small percentage that they would refuse. There is so little interesting mechanics that is going for this game, can they at least fix those that could have brought some depth to it?

There are plenty of real animals of the same species that will refuse each other, so I see no reason dragons of the same breed wouldn't do the same--especially when DC heavily implies (from in game text and the creator's own thoughts on the subject) that our dragons are as intelligent or even more intelligent than humans. Intelligent critters have opinions and might not always get along, even if they look alike. PEOPLE that look alike don't always get along, now do they?

 

Aside from that, it'd really unfairly balance breeding success towards purebreds, which I would not want to see happen at all. I don't fancy purebreds in most cases and having my very mixed lineage projects (I breed amphipteres with a lot of normal dragons) suffer higher failure rates would be absolutely awful. The current equal for everyone refusal system, meanwhile, doesn't punish anyone for anything.

[KittyHeart]

So closing your self off to removing or revamping something as frustrating and heartbreaking as refusals just because your dragon my bark up slightly smarter things than Doug is a bit unfair to the rest of us. If you enjoy the challenge of never being able to breed a pair ever again thats you man, but honestly it seems like the rest of us would like to be able to continue our breeding projects, continue being able to breed and play safely as opposed to sitting there crossing our fingers, offering to every existing God in the universe for the pair you're about to try wont refuse and force you to start over again.

I'm not sure what you are trying to get at in this last paragraph. If you think I approve the Refusal system then you are mistaken. I think it is utter rubbish. I was just suggesting that if you would implement a refusal mechanic is should have followed a more logical bases but since it doesn't it should be removed.

 

I would say a crossing between a moonstone and a white dragon would be completely plausible anyway and no morphological differences would have suggested that they would refuse each other. The only time I think a refusal could have occurred is if dragons are too morphologically different to be compatible, a water dragon and tri-horn wayvern as I already gave an example.

 

If they wanted to simulate nature in any given way then there would have been a very small chance of refusal between same/similar species but in such a small amount that no one would have even noticed. Maybe 1 out of thousands of matings.

 

I personally hate RNG deciding if you win or lose, get the best loot or get your experiments to work in games. It makes much more sense to put in hard work (planning out where you going to get egg drops and how you are going to construct your perfect lineage in this game for example) to do well in games rather hoping that luck will be with you and the crummy dice roll does not decide if your dragons will hate each other or not.

[Fuzzbucket]

There are plenty of real animals of the same species that will refuse each other, so I see no reason dragons of the same breed wouldn't do the same--especially when DC heavily implies (from in game text and the creator's own thoughts on the subject) that our dragons are as intelligent or even more intelligent than humans. Intelligent critters have opinions and might not always get along, even if they look alike. PEOPLE that look alike don't always get along, now do they?

 

Aside from that, it'd really unfairly balance breeding success towards purebreds, which I would not want to see happen at all. I don't fancy purebreds in most cases and having my very mixed lineage projects (I breed amphipteres with a lot of normal dragons) suffer higher failure rates would be absolutely awful. The current equal for everyone refusal system, meanwhile, doesn't punish anyone for anything.

I absolutely agree. I recently became hooked on checkers and I would be very cross if things were skewed away from them.

 

Also - as a HUMAN - there are quite a few other HUMANS I would ALWAYS refuse to breed with, even if they were the last men on earth. There are several animals I would prefer if that were possible (I believe it IS possible with some of the larger apes - and believe me, there are many cases where an ape would be preferable to some revolting men I know.) Just because two dragons are the same breed or even morphologically similar does not meant they wouldn't refuse to breed.

Edited March 2, 2015 by fuzzbucket

[AnanoKimi]

I'm not sure what you are trying to get at in this last paragraph. If you think I approve the Refusal system then you are mistaken. I think it is utter rubbish. I was just suggesting that if you would implement a refusal mechanic is should have followed a more logical bases but since it doesn't it should be removed.

 

I would say a crossing between a moonstone and a white dragon would be completely plausible anyway and no morphological differences would have suggested that they would refuse each other. The only time I think a refusal could have occurred is if dragons are too morphologically different to be compatible, a water dragon and tri-horn wayvern as I already gave an example.

 

If they wanted to simulate nature in any given way then there would have been a very small chance of refusal between same/similar species but in such a small amount that no one would have even noticed. Maybe 1 out of thousands of matings.

 

I personally hate RNG deciding if you win or lose, get the best loot or get your experiments to work in games. It makes much more sense to put in hard work (planning out where you going to get egg drops and how you are going to construct your perfect lineage in this game for example) to do well in games rather hoping that luck will be with you and the crummy dice roll does not decide if your dragons will hate each other or not.

That last paragraph was a general statement. Though honestly if a form of refusal system was added like the one you mentioned it would be making users lives just a tad mor misrable than it already is with the refusals as we have them.

 

Again, as I mentioned (not to you this is more geared towards the "Our dragons are sentient" users) I believe we are imply or adding too much sentience into these dragons. Yes they can speak but again I don't think they are super intelligent beyond our scope creatures. The only ones I would see this way are Holidays, GONs and Avatars. Kind of like how in the pokemon movies the legendaries have an intelligence on par with humans and such.

 

Other than that I think these dragons are intelligent in their own right but not super intelligent creatures beyond our intelligence otherwise we wouldn't be stealing their eggs and making them stay. If they were that intelligent then they would leave of their own accord and we would end up with a missing sprite and a random dragon we owned in the wild. I mean really. These creatures I would say are almost at human intelligence but not quite.

 

I equate their intelligence to that of a pokemon. Smart, semi developed problem solving skills, still quite a bit below human intelligence, obedient and fairly easy to train once captive. So refusals could be revamped to be more often than not no interests. Its not permanent and one day they will make you an egg. Maybe even the longer you wait to breed a pair the better chance of your no interest becoming a success. Like instead of breeding them as soon as their off cooldown, you wait two weeks you might get a success. And again:

 

If you enjoy the challenge of never being able to breed a pair ever again thats you man, but honestly it seems like the rest of us would like to be able to continue our breeding projects, continue being able to breed and play safely as opposed to sitting there crossing our fingers, offering to every existing God in the universe for the pair you're about to try wont refuse and force you to start over again.

[SolarCat]

Smart, semi developed problem solving skills, still quite a bit below human intelligence, obedient and fairly easy to train once captive.

 

The DC Lore thread goes against this.

 

According to TJ in that thread, Dragons have their own names for locations as well as themselves, as well as for themselves. They're sentient, with their own culture and religion, which potentially revolves around the Avatar breeds. There's also (probably) a faction of dragons resentful of human influence. There's a lot of interesting things in there, but the majority points to dragons (with the exceptions of drakes) being sentient, which means they're not "trainable animals" but just as intelligent as humans, if not more so.

[AnanoKimi]

Then how are we stealing their eggs and such... Someone probably already asked that in the lore AMA. If thats the case as I said, then we shouldnt be able to keep them captive, unless our stealing them keep them from the knowledge they would have gained in the wild, severely hindering them in terms of their captive intelligence. God that sounds worse that the whole "Are we holding pokemon against their will" stuff. I mean we are basically taking a very intelligent creature, whose wild counterparts have a religion, language, personal lore and such, raising them to be less intelligent than their wild counter parts since we keep them away from that knowledge, and keep them tucked away to breed us babies how we want when we want and them taking them away from these parents and giving them away, abandoning them if we don't get what we want, I mean damn we are awful people.

 

Honestly that's scary then.

[Slaskia]

Then how are we stealing their eggs and such... Someone probably already asked that in the lore AMA. If thats the case as I said, then we shouldnt be able to keep them captive, unless our stealing them keep them from the knowledge they would have gained in the wild, severely hindering them in terms of their captive intelligence. God that sounds worse that the whole "Are we holding pokemon against their will" stuff. I mean we are basically taking a very intelligent creature, whose wild counterparts have a religion, language, personal lore and such, raising them to be less intelligent than their wild counter parts since we keep them away from that knowledge, and keep them tucked away to breed us babies how we want when we want and them taking them away from these parents and giving them away, abandoning them if we don't get what we want, I mean damn we are awful people.

 

Honestly that's scary then.

I believe in the same thread it was also mentioned that us stealing eggs and raising the dragons is non-canon lore wise.

 

After all, dragons live for centuries and likely take many years (if not decades) for a hatching to grow up. So it certainly wouldn't make sense, lore wise, for single humans to 'own' hundreds of dragons .

[Lurhstaap]

Then how are we stealing their eggs and such... Someone probably already asked that in the lore AMA. If thats the case as I said, then we shouldnt be able to keep them captive, unless our stealing them keep them from the knowledge they would have gained in the wild, severely hindering them in terms of their captive intelligence. God that sounds worse that the whole "Are we holding pokemon against their will" stuff. I mean we are basically taking a very intelligent creature, whose wild counterparts have a religion, language, personal lore and such, raising them to be less intelligent than their wild counter parts since we keep them away from that knowledge, and keep them tucked away to breed us babies how we want when we want and them taking them away from these parents and giving them away, abandoning them if we don't get what we want, I mean damn we are awful people.

 

Honestly that's scary then.

Check out some of the descriptions on my scroll for a potential answer to your question. Humans get stolen from all the time, including having their children kidnapped. An egg, if not told it was kidnapped, wouldn't necessarily know it, even if it were very intelligent. So it would grow up trusting what seems like its 'parent figure'. Imprinting and all that. Also it could be an outright system of slavery in which humans use magic to control other intelligent creatures. Or the whole scroll system could be seen for what, IMO, it is - an abstraction, a user interface, with no counterpart in the "game world". In my concept of 'Lurhstaap's Breedery' there is no 'scroll', no one 'cave'. My character doesn't even "own" or control most of the dragons; at best he is sort of a parent figure or the one responsible for bringing new blood into the 'mini-nation' of the Breedery. They have their own interests and lives. When I breed dragons, I don't see that as my human character making two dragons breed - rather they have become interested in each other (or one was interested but the other wasn't, for refusals and whatnot) and my clicking the 'breed' button just reflects that. In short, you may be taking the game too literally. There doesn't necessarily have to be an actual in-world reflection of all game mechanics. (I also tend to envision my character as either non-human - more of an anthro dragon himself - or as a humanoid with some sort of immortality principle, due to lots of Time magic or something, rather than an ordinary person with an ordinary lifestyle.)

Edited March 2, 2015 by Lurhstaap

[AnanoKimi]

.____. Then how does lore apply to the game. If our stealing and breeding these creatures isnt part of the game why are we adding in lore sentience when we arent even supposed to be able to own these bloody dragons?

 

See and this is where things like game mechanics, not story additions, start to go wonky. Putting into play something that has nothing to do with the other is just complicating the whole thing. If their sentience is more of a Story thing than a game thing then lets leave that in the story. Lets not bring story elements into game elements if game elements cannot/do not apply to the story.

 

That being said, game wise (not story wise so lets keep sentience out of this) refusals are a frustrating feature for a majority of players. Many fear breeding nice lineages in fear of having to start over especially if the mate had to be traded and wasnt self bred on their own scroll. The valentine BSA sounds nice but I would like to see it on an uncommon dragon that is not easy to find but not a once a year collectible.