Refuse to Have Refusals!

[Ayelldee]

...

 

Complaining in this thread, which is a discussion thread about the mechanics of refusals, won't get you any help with the situation.

 

...

 

Using this thread as a complaint place isn't adding anything toward improvements.[/color]

While I see your point, I still think being able to say 'This pair refused (with all appropriate anguished punctuation and emotes)' IS valuable to this thread since it's showing the scope of the problems with Refusals. Our complaining is the only way to get a subject on the table - and we apparently have to 'keep squeaking loudly' to get our point across.

[CNR4806]

While I see your point, I still think being able to say 'This pair refused (with all appropriate anguished punctuation and emotes)' IS valuable to this thread since it's showing the scope of the problems with Refusals. Our complaining is the only way to get a subject on the table - and we apparently have to 'keep squeaking loudly' to get our point across.

This thread made by Jazeki serves the purpose since it links to this one on the very first sentence.

[Nalyua]

IF TJ adds in a way for refusals to be reversed, then I don't think they need to be removed. DC's a pretty easy game, so having something a bit different (even if it's different in an annoying sense) spices it up a little. Of course, if refusals are not ever going to be reversible, I'd prefer we not have them--a bit of patience or work to fix a refusal is one thing, never being able to breed two dragons that are all but impossible to replace is another.

I think you sum it up nicely.

 

Some things are just simply not so easily replaced (Gen 2 Prizes, CB Rares, CB Holidays for instance).

 

And thus if the dragons refuse and you have at least a way to achieve a fix of this through working for it would be nice.

[olympe]

That being said, breeding my holiday checkers has become almost stressful. Just this week, I bred two pairs of Val '09 x red, both pairs are 4th gen checkers. I kept my fingers crossed for both breedings, waiting for the page to load (which always seems to take endlessly). I was lucky, though, as only one pair refused - and I happen to own the parents of the red in question, so I already bred a replacement.

*grumbles* That stupid Val rejected the replacement, too. So I had to breed a 2nd replacement mate. I also renamed her from "Fiery Affair" to "Fiery Rejection II". I hope she won't become "Queen of Rejections", though.

[Millie_Azure]

Okay, 21 pages is way too long to read, so there's a chance I may be repeating something. If I do, I apologize.

 

That being said...

 

Yes, refusals do suck, but they are an unfortunate part of nature. Not all creatures are going to get along and reproduce just because a human shoves them at each other. I don't think they should be removed from the game mechanics.

 

BUT!

 

I do think someone needs to take a look at recent refusal rates and reassess how often refusals happen, because they seem to be happening a lot more than they should be happening.

 

Also, I love the idea of a BSA to give a pair a second chance at breeding without refusing. That seems to be the most reasonable way of going about working around it. Besides, it's been a loooooong time since we've gotten a new BSA. (Please don't read that as me saying we need a new BSA just for the sake of having a new BSA. That's not what I mean. Just saying it'd be nice.)

[stagazer_7]

Okay, 21 pages is way too long to read, so there's a chance I may be repeating something. If I do, I apologize.

 

That being said...

 

Yes, refusals do suck, but they are an unfortunate part of nature. Not all creatures are going to get along and reproduce just because a human shoves them at each other. I don't think they should be removed from the game mechanics.

 

BUT!

 

I do think someone needs to take a look at recent refusal rates and reassess how often refusals happen, because they seem to be happening a lot more than they should be happening.

 

Also, I love the idea of a BSA to give a pair a second chance at breeding without refusing. That seems to be the most reasonable way of going about working around it. Besides, it's been a loooooong time since we've gotten a new BSA. (Please don't read that as me saying we need a new BSA just for the sake of having a new BSA. That's not what I mean. Just saying it'd be nice.)

Refusals are just a game mechanic, something that was thrown in to make the game a bit more exciting and it wasn't a really major issue before because they happened rarely. I don't know much about breeding animals in RL, so I can't say anything about whether domestic pets people work with permanently reject their intended mate, but since this is a game with magical fantastical beasts with an increasingly obvious problematic of refusals I'd really like to see something done about them. Removing them altogether is my least favorite of the suggested solutions, there are quite a few others that offer a way around refusals without their complete removal. Now it's up to the higher ups to see which one of the suggested ideas would solve this problem best.

Edited March 29, 2015 by stagazer_7

[DragonNighthowler]

Yes, refusals do suck, but they are an unfortunate part of nature. Not all creatures are going to get along and reproduce just because a human shoves them at each other.

 

In which case, domestic breeding allows for artificial insemination.

 

Anyways, this is not nature, not real life, nor do many of nature's mechanics apply to DC. It's a game. Computer games are human constructions made for human enjoyment, therefore, the "in nature" argument can not logically apply here.

[Fuzzbucket]

In which case, domestic breeding allows for artificial insemination.

So what we need is an artificial insemination BSA ??? THAT would be quite something - but you know - it might just be the best way. They refuse - but by having a little chat with x dragon, the male could supply the necessary on a one time basis only...

 

This could just fly.... It would leave refusals in place but offer a way around them.

[Tawanda001]

Well, I'm not an expert on animal husbandry by any means, but isn't a permanent refusal based on 'not liking' a potential mate something only people do? I didn't think animals did that. Most animals I've been around are happy to breed with whatever partner is available most of the time.

[Herk]

Well, I'm not an expert on animal husbandry by any means, but isn't a permanent refusal based on 'not liking' a potential mate something only people do? I didn't think animals did that. Most animals I've been around are happy to breed with whatever partner is available most of the time.

Have you ever heard of great pandas?

[Tawanda001]

Do they refuse based on 'not liking'? I know there are animals that mate for life and won't take other partners, I've just never heard of them refusing 'for life'

I do know captive pandas are notoriously bad breeders, I didn't think it was because they were picky about breeding partners though.

[Fuzzbucket]

Do they refuse based on 'not liking'? I know there are animals that mate for life and won't take other partners, I've just never heard of them refusing 'for life'

I do know captive pandas are notoriously bad breeders, I didn't think it was because they were picky about breeding partners though.

Well, certainly one panda I remember following in the news refused his mate for years; they brought in another and he was all over her at once. So I guess - yes !

[DragonNighthowler]

So what we need is an artificial insemination BSA ??? THAT would be quite something  - but you know - it might just be the best way. They refuse - but by having a little chat with x dragon, the male could supply the necessary on a one time basis only...

 

This could just fly.... It would leave refusals in place but offer a way around them.

Lol. Didn't think about it, but it could actually work.

 

Edit; All animal species can, and will refuse a mate they don't like. Humans are simply another animal species, submitted to the basic biological principles granted by evolution and a guarantee of survival. Anyways, I insist, this is a game. Dragons are not real. These are pixels.

If we're going to go by biological realism, we can start by creating a taxonomic and genetic background of our dragons and all of them which are way too far in the evolutionary and genetic scale simply will not breed. Some will produce sterile offspring. Others might breed creating fertile hybrids. That would leave us with a pretty collection of purebreeds as, in real life, the majority of animals will not and can not interbreed. Even those of the same family will not interbreed if the genetic divergence is too large.

Wolves and dogs interbreed and produce fertile offspring because they are, essentially, the SAME specie.

Wolves and foxes can't interbreed. Horses and donkeys produce sterile hybrids. Humans are so far from our closest specific relatives we can't interbreed at all.

 

Then we can continue by stating certain species will only breed at a specific time. Others will kill hatchlings that don't belong to him. In other cases the female will die, kill the male, or both will perish after mating as with severa cephalopods species. Other animals will die if they don't mate. That would give for a funny dragon species, either breed and die, or don't breed and die anyways.

 

Would that be a gamebreaker? Deffinitely. Seeing your favorite dragon perishing is heartbreaking and annoying at the very least. That's why realism doesn't work for games. Games are games, constructions made by humans for enjoyment and entertainment. In real life you can't pilot a battleship through the starts, shout your enemies off cliffs or jump into a haystack and survive. That's why we don't apply realism to games, but an interpretation of realism (simulators are a completely different story, and this is not a simulator anyways). It is done as such because it is an escape to reality, a way to relax and enjoy. It's a game, not real life, and games can be fixed to become more entertaining. Unfortunately, we can't hack real life to get rid of cancer, or lehismania.

Edited March 30, 2015 by DragonNighthowler

[Syphoneira]

So what we need is an artificial insemination BSA ??? THAT would be quite something  - but you know - it might just be the best way. They refuse - but by having a little chat with x dragon, the male could supply the necessary on a one time basis only...

 

This could just fly.... It would leave refusals in place but offer a way around them.

 

 

 

Hi, fuzzy!

 

You surely don't mean on a one time basis ever, do you?

 

Even in the unlikely event that one try produced the egg you needed that one time, in each case you'd still have that wasted dragon/those wasted dragons rotting on your scroll forever after, with no real hope or, in too many cases, none at all of a new suitable/usable mate or mates, which would solve nothing.

 

This situation is really depressing and a number of members are afraid even to try breeding wonderful pairings where the very ecstasy of actually gaining these fabulous dragons - perhaps waiting years to gain the perfect mate then Refused - had already been spoilt by the fear of a Refusal.

 

They're pointless and annoying in replaceable Commons, but too many amazing gifts/lucky catches/hard-won 2nd/3rd gen Prize trades are going to absolute waste and it's corrupting the fun of breeding, which is a major part of the game for many people, especially long-term players who rely on lineages to keep DC interesting and worthwhile as their leisure time activity.

 

The back-logs of important Refusals are rapidly growing for too many dedicated breeders, and we need some reliable method of eliminating them for those of us who think they're a useless game-killer and who would be arguing for their removal entirely, if some people didn't want them, because we're generally willing to compromise so that everyone can have choice.

 

 

 

Thanks, DragonNighthowler, for your post and points.

 

Maintaining damaging 'realism' in a collection game is silly, especially where it arbitrarily shuts down parts of the game which would otherwise be open and then can never be explored.

[olympe]

Wolves and dogs interbreed and produce fertile offspring because they are, essentially, the SAME specie.

Wolves and foxes can't interbreed. Horses and donkeys produce sterile hybrids. Humans are so far from our closest specific relatives we can't interbreed at all.

Not quite accurate. (Sure, the things about canines are, as far as I know.) But there are reports of the occasional fertile hinny, one of which even produced a 3/4 horse colt that proved fertile, too.

And don't get me started on our very own ancestors. Up until around 40,000 years ago, the Homo sapiens used to hybridize with not one, but two closely related hominids, the Neanderthals and Denisovans. Not to mention the recurrent hybridizing with more archaic humans and even between human ancestors and chimpanzee ancestors way before that.

[Fuzzbucket]

 

 

Hi, fuzzy!

 

You surely don't mean on a one time basis ever, do you?

 

Even in the unlikely event that one try produced the egg you needed that one time, in each case you'd still have that wasted dragon/those wasted dragons rotting on your scroll forever after, with no real hope or, in too many cases, none at all of a new suitable/usable mate or mates, which would solve nothing.

No not one time ever - but it would be a BSA with cooldown and a fail rate and everything.

[DragonNighthowler]

But there are reports of the occasional fertile hinny

 

The exception that proves the rule. I am aware of this exception but it is still a rarity. There are mixes between lions and tigers (I'm not very sure who is the male/female) that will occassionaly produce fertile offspring although for the most part they will be sterile. That pretty much shows they are not that far in the evolutionary tree, but evolution is taking them through different branches.

 

In the cases of dogs and wolves, they are still in the same branch on the evolutionary tree. Mitochondrial DNA talks of a divergence 100,000 years ago (that's debatable) while fossil records speak somewhere between 33,000 years ago to 15,000 years ago, which is a very short time. The difference we observe in dogs is due to domestication (Belyaev experiment).

 

And don't get me started on our very own ancestors

 

Which are extinct.

 

Our closest relatives nowadays are orangutans, chimpanzees and gorillas, and we can't interbreed with them, which was the point I was bringing across.

 

Anyways I wasn't getting into accurate genetics. My field is dogs behavior, the rest I know a bit. The point I was bringing across is how futile is it to bring forward an argument based on the realism applied to a videogame when completely ignoring the rest about such realism. Reality has a huge array of behaviors and particularities that cannot possibly be introduced into the game without breaking it. Therefore keeping this for the sake of realism...

[Fuzzbucket]

Our closest relatives nowadays are orangutans, chimpanzees and gorillas, and we can't interbreed with them, which was the point I was bringing across.

Actually I believe scientists say we can - but no human is prepared to join in and the outcry if they did would be - tremendous....

 

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of an artificial insemination BSA. I shall think this through....

[AnanoKimi]

Has anyone watched game theory? Its great because it applies real world logic and mechanics to video games. If you haven't watched Mat Patts theories, do your self a favor and do it. Aside from funny and educational, their ridiculous, and he knows it. How on earth are you going to apply the real world logic and mechanic that we live in to a video game made to obviously break away from it? How are you going to come here, start arguing real world genetics, behaviors, etc on creatures that are not real, through our very own real life mechanics could not properly exist, and have features and abilities that pretty much defy all logic and sanity? No it doesn't work.

 

On top of that, don't bring the "But the lore says..." or "I like to think that..." Lore is non cannon and your personal perception is not the perception of everyone here. So even if lore says that they all walk on two feet, speak french, worship multiple gods, and hunt humans as food and sacrifices, on our scroll and as game play we steal, raise, and domesticate these dragons. And if you want to believe that the red that is your incubate spammer actually has feelings and a personality then write it in their description and leave it at that. We're not here to talk about if your red is a sassy dragon and as such will not breed with dragons that cant handle his/her sassyness, we're here to talk about a game mechanic like the one you would complain about in CoD, Battlefield, Gears of War, WoW, Super Mario Bros, Smash Brothers, Etc.

 

If a certain game mechanic in CoD effs up and you can't shoot properly, you're not gonna blame it on "Oh well my class is sassy and well doesn't like to shoot straight so its okay." No you're either gonna try and figure out if its your controller, your system, or the game that's making you eff up and if its a game mechanic you're either gonna call for a patch fix from the producing company or play something better that doesn't mess up like CoD. That's the issue here. Refusals are that game mechanic that don't let us not only play the game properly, but it doesn't let us enjoy the game the way we should.

 

I want to breed my dragons so bad, breeding my Tinsel is a hassle because If he starts refusing rare mates, I'm screwed. I don't want to offer another 3-4 IOU's to replace his mates because each one refused. I also Don't wanna breed my Moonstones x White because I don't want to go through the trouble of shifting pairs around that refused or having to once again go through the hassle of trying to find a white and then wait until A moonstone pops up instead of a sunstone. I don't want to continue nice lineages I find in the AP Because who do I ask? If they have no forum account how do I contact them? Its a pain really. and if its something rare, something hard to replace, something that took you forever to trade for how do you work around that? Why should a game that should be enjoyable, fun, simple, have to cause me mild insecurities of whether I should have two pixels in a database breed and make me more pixels. Why? I shouldn't. No one should. If I wanted to make that kind of choice I'd go elsewhere. I don't need some dragon adoptable game to stress me out over a bunch of data, I get plenty of that stress elsewhere, trust me.

 

So yeah, refusals are a pain in the behind, no one likes them (Except the exceptional few) and applying real world logic or non applicable lore onto this broken mechanic obviously doesn't work.

[olympe]

Our closest relatives nowadays are orangutans, chimpanzees and gorillas, and we can't interbreed with them, which was the point I was bringing across.

And just how do you know that? Have you actually tried? Probably not, but the point is, nobody would be willing to do that, but that doesn't mean it would be impossible if anybody actually tried. (Not that I'm volunteering, mind you.)

 

There are mixes between lions and tigers (I'm not very sure who is the male/female) that will occassionaly produce fertile offspring although for the most part they will be sterile.

The rule is simple for all kind of cat hybrids: male hybrids are sterile, female fertile (even though it seems to me that the females are less fertile than non-hybrids).

[lightningsky]

I don't know if this needs a new thread or not but,

 

I'd like to propose that Holiday Dragons never refuse a mate outside of their breeding season. I don't think anything is more gamebreaking than trying to work on a lineage that takes years to make - literally - and have your Holidays refuse, and having to wait till their season comes around again to get a replacement. Now you're another year behind.

 

Or what if you wanted to make a lovely Radiant Angel x Gold checker - you own only two CB Golds and two CB RAs...the pairs refuse! Just trade for that pretty 3G Prize with your fav holidays? But then he refuses both your CBs. Can't replace those...these situations, to me, would make me frustrated enough to walk away from the game. It's not enjoying to play at that point.

 

So yeah. If Holidays have refusals turned off in their season, why can't it be all year?

[Fuzzbucket]

So yeah. If Holidays have refusals turned off in their season, why can't it be all year?

BECAUSE - that is to up the number of HOLIDAYS bred. They will never give you that other breed, even in season.

[DragonNighthowler]

And just how do you know that?

 

Genetics.

 

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v437/...ature04072.html

http://genome.cshlp.org/content/15/12/1746.full

https://www.icr.org/article/5292

 

As a fact, humans haver 46 chromosomes and chimps 48. While that is not an absolute barrier and there are more variables involved (actually, horses and zebras can hybrid having a different number of chromosomes), it is something that would, in fact, make hybridation a bit more complicated. However, the way genes manifest is also something to take into account when speaking about hybrids.

 

nobody would be willing to do that

 

You sure? This is not the place to talk about certain topics but abuse against animals isn't only bullfights, rodeos or beating them up with a stick. I can pass you through private channels some information concerning animal welfare and protection, but I advise, it is pretty hard.

 

but that doesn't mean it would be impossible if anybody actually tried.

 

There have been some trials in soviet scientific laboratories which proved futile.

 

The rule is simple for all kind of cat hybrids: male hybrids are sterile, female fertile (even though it seems to me that the females are less fertile than non-hybrids).

 

Thank you. As I said, my area of knowledge is dogs (I'm a dog behaviorist), and cats never really interested me much. Sounds similar to parrotfish hybrids, males are sterile while females can be fertile (although most of the time they are also sterile).

 

Anyways, look how complicated things have gotten in just a little while. If we had to abide by reality in DC, it would be chaos. Applying this little bits of knowledge, maybe silvers would be genetically close enough to waters to be able to produce offspring, but most likely reds and water dragons would be too far in the evolutionary tree to hybrid. Not to mention they would not produce reds or waters, but a hybrid that could or could not be fertile, that could or could not be viable or suffer from certain diseases (parrotfish are actually sickly, deformed creatures unable to close their mouths). In a behvarioral aspect, mating rituals would be very different, not to mention mating seasons would probably not match, therefore reds would be out of mating season when waters are into mating season.

For example, wolf-dog hybrids normally happen from a female wolf and a male dog, due to the fact that male dogs do not have a mating season, whether male wolves do. The probabilities of a male dog being in the area of a female wolf is more likely than a male wolf encountering a female dog and both being in heat. It can happen, but it is a more rare occurence.

 

Now just imagine a stone dragon mating with a mint. Don't think that'll work.

 

If we start applying realism, DC would soon turn into the AKC.

 

Anyways, a pleasure debating with you.

Edited March 31, 2015 by DragonNighthowler

[olympe]

All of that being said, I think we should the whole "real life issues" discussion and head straight towards a discussion about mere game mechanics. DC is already too far removed from "real life" for that point to work 100%. (Speaking about mints and stones, or magmas and ices, or hellfires and deep seas...)

[DragonNighthowler]

All of that being said, I think we should the whole "real life issues" discussion and head straight towards a discussion about mere game mechanics. DC is already too far removed from "real life" for that point to work 100%. (Speaking about mints and stones, or magmas and ices, or hellfires and deep seas...)

My point exactly!

 

Purely focusing on game mechanics, I've already stated (further up the thread) that this type of game mechanic brings nothing but frustration. The fact that this is not solveable by using a potion, bsa, raising level, advancing further into the main quest or any other typical thing you might encounter in other games. That is, the fact this is a NEVER, EVER, EVER, NOT IN YOUR DREAMS situation, is what makes the game frustrating.

 

I'm currently working through an IOU and have been for the past few months, without managing the tinsel egg I promised. I'm getting either no interest, no egg, or the egg of the mate specie (nebula). Is it frustrating? Yes, specially so since it is the other part of an IOU I received. But I know eventually I'll get the egg I'm trying for. It's a simple; "no prize, keep trying". You have to wait for a week to try again. I think that is a good game mechanic. Doesn't make things specially easy while giving you a chance to try again in the future.

 

Refusals are not like that. Refusals mean you're not getting, ever, a second chance. It doesn't add anything to the game, not even challenge. Challenging is trying to hunt silvers. Training to become a better hunter. Creating special lineages can be challenging.

Refusals remind me to the moment when I had to change my telephone's ringtone because of stupid Movistar and Vodaphone calling me at all hours. I actually developed anxiety when I heard the tune. Refusals are like that. After so many refusals, the first time you try out a new pair I feel the same level of anxiety. Games should not evoke such emotions. Specially a simple collecting game.

 

I would simply be done with them. We already have two other game mechanics that affect breeding (no egg, no interest), and a third which can be frustrating enough (always breeding the same type of dragon, specially with ubercommon new breeds). I don't think we need this.

 

But, if we can't just be done with them, a BSA, or a cooldown, or something that could give us another chance at breeding would work much better than this "ha ha, you loose". At least the mechanic would be more meaningful than it is right now.