Refuse to Have Refusals!

[Syphoneira]

Good to see you too!

 

This would work exactly like the 'breed' action.  You select one dragon, select their refused mate, and regardless of whether or not the action is successful in removing the refused relationship, both 're-familiarize' and 'breed' go on cooldown for one week for BOTH dragons involved.

 

The way I have it proposed, you could use the action on every adult dragon on your scroll once per week, just like the 'breed' action.  In the end the chances of success vs. failure would be determined by the game administrator.  It's also possible the action could be implemented with a similar usage cap to 'kill' and 'freeze.'  Perhaps you get a certain number of 're-familiarize' attempts in a two week period?

 

 

 

I think I love this!

 

 

People have been accumulating such a back-log of important Refusals lately and obviously it's not the ones easily replaced that are the problem, it's the really special lineages and limited/discontinued mates, etc., (etc. including instances such as with a very specific Winter I needed to breed before the Seasonal change for a Holiday mate next year and only just managed) that now, upon acquisition, wonderful dragons make our guts churn with anxiety until we find out whether they Refuse their only available mates or not.

 

Although having to rebreed multiple attempts with commons at once isn't fun either and holds everything else back...

 

And the waste of gorgeous lineages, of the effort/luck/kindness of others involved in getting them to simply have them rot on your scroll following the death of dreams which may have taken years to approach fruition really takes the fun out of breeding, and something like this could make all the difference in the world.

 

Actually, I think I've bred more than a half-dozen new pairings in the last few days without a Refusal, so I'm hoping that means that things are looking up, lol.

 

But a lot of people have a lot of dragons which this could make useful, so thanks for coming up with it!

 

And I do hope you'll be visibly sticking around - you've been missed!

[cyradis4]

Re-Familiarize pros:

Eliminates impossible pairs (the goal of this thread)

Does not require collecting a specific breed

-especially valentines

Is a variation of existing breed action and can be scheduled with weekly breedings

Is not a 'handout' - an obstacle present in gameplay is eliminated but a sense of challenge is preserved

Reasonable cooldown

Explicable in lore / flavor text

 

Re-Familiarize cons:

Refusals still exist

Inability to breed dragons with other, compatible partners while in the re-familiarizing process (shared cooldown with 'breed')

Action could be perceived as patronizing to the intelligence of dragons

 

Feel free to add or amend.

Hmmm....

 

I like the idea, but unless the chance of failure was really high, having a cooldown of 1 week would remove all meaning to refusals. Why would I waste an egg slot replacing a 3rd gen common from metal... When in 2 or 3 weeks I can have the refusal re-set? Answer: I wouldn't. Nor would anyone else, for that matter. So, the cooldown / failure rates need to be high enough to encourage people to replace the ones that can be replaced fairly easily. Otherwise, you might as well just remove refusals from the game!

 

As for the "you can use x per week", same problem as above. Unless it was "1 or 2 per month", it would render refusals completely meaningless, because who is going to waste an egg space on a common when in a month or so the refusal can be scrubbed?

 

So, while I like the mechanics (it also should probably be in its own thread so it doesn't get buried), I think the cooldown needs to be at least 1 month with a failure rate of 50% or so. That way, most people will replace the easily replaced ones (thereby helping the ratios), and only take the time / effort to use it for those that were painful. And I speak as someone who had a 2nd gen Silver refuse FOUR 2nd gen Ices before liking one, a 2nd gen Magma refusing 3 GWs, and who gets multiple refusals a week I breed so much.

 

Really, unless its going to take several months to replace a refused mate, I'd just spam this. So, I wouldn't bother even trying to replace any refused mate.... Even if I could breed the replacement right then. Which in turn, turns refusals into a glorified "no interest" message. If you are going to do that, just remove them all together, because its not worth the coding time to implement something so toothless. Yes, refusals are a pain, and yes they can be extremely frustrating. But its a unique mechanic, and while I fully support doing something to let you re-set them, I think whatever it is needs to have enough teeth so that people actually breed replacements, instead of just spamming the refusal reset.

 

 

 

tl;dr

Having a 1 week cooldown turns Refusals into a glorified "no interest". The cooldown / failure rate needs to be high enough that it would only be used on the painful / difficult to replace refusals. Ie, so that on average it would take several months to undo a refusal. Otherwise, its not worth the coding time to bother with it.

[olympe]

It makes sense, I guess. Maybe a scroll-wide cooldown of 1 month (1 week?) would work, but in exchange, it should have no chance of failure.

 

Sure, you could easily undo refusals - but no more than 12 a year. Considering you get more than one per week, you're bound to rebreed the easily replacable dragons. Plus, you'd have a guarantee to be able to remove the really painful refusals, even if it takes its time.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

I like the idea, but unless the chance of failure was really high, having a cooldown of 1 week would remove all meaning to refusals. Why would I waste an egg slot replacing a 3rd gen common from metal... When in 2 or 3 weeks I can have the refusal re-set? Answer: I wouldn't. Nor would anyone else, for that matter. So, the cooldown / failure rates need to be high enough to encourage people to replace the ones that can be replaced fairly easily. Otherwise, you might as well just remove refusals from the game!

If the chance of failure is TOO high, though, it becomes annoying as well. Let's say I have a CB Gold refuse my only female GoN. I don't want to waste extra months resetting them just so I can then spend even MORE months actually trying to get an egg from them! I mean, don't get me wrong, I'll take it over nothing, but unless the failure rate is somewhat moderate I'd prefer reconcile (maybe even in combination with harmonize--long term, unlimited shot, guaranteed reset versus short term, limited shot, not guaranteed reset could work well together) or simply having refusals become "you can breed these dragons again in a month / some other amount of time, meanwhile maybe breed to something else."

 

I mean, I guess if the mate is a super special lineage (like a checker) that you wouldn't breed to anything else in the meantime it's slightly less annoying to spend lots of weeks not breeding them to anything else, but that's still giving you an extra amount of definite no egg breedings compounded on all the normal no egg / wrong egg breedings you could end up with after.

 

I guess it's a question of how annoying the refusal mechanic 'fix' should BE. Any fix is better than the current incredibly annoying mechanic. But is the fix itself still going to be fairly annoying, only moderately annoying, or easy as pie? That'll affect everything from how successful refamiliarize would be to whether BSAs or a change in what refusals actually do is better instead.

[cyradis4]

If the chance of failure is TOO high, though, it becomes annoying as well. Let's say I have a CB Gold refuse my only female GoN. I don't want to waste extra months resetting them just so I can then spend even MORE months actually trying to get an egg from them! I mean, don't get me wrong, I'll take it over nothing, but unless the failure rate is somewhat moderate I'd prefer reconcile (maybe even in combination with harmonize--long term, unlimited shot, guaranteed reset versus short term, limited shot, not guaranteed reset could work well together) or simply having refusals become "you can breed these dragons again in a month / some other amount of time, meanwhile maybe breed to something else."

 

I mean, I guess if the mate is a super special lineage (like a checker) that you wouldn't breed to anything else in the meantime it's slightly less annoying to spend lots of weeks not breeding them to anything else, but that's still giving you an extra amount of definite no egg breedings compounded on all the normal no egg / wrong egg breedings you could end up with after.

 

I guess it's a question of how annoying the refusal mechanic 'fix' should BE. Any fix is better than the current incredibly annoying mechanic. But is the fix itself still going to be fairly annoying, only moderately annoying, or easy as pie? That'll affect everything from how successful refamiliarize would be to whether BSAs or a change in what refusals actually do is better instead.

The point is to have the refusals be annoying, or in other words, meaningful. If they AREN'T annoying, then its because they aren't meaningful at all. What's the point of keeping a meaningless mechanic?

 

And both BSAs have long suggested cooldowns. The 1 week suggested here is far, far shorter than the 6 months to a year for the others.

 

And I agree, and that's why I want this in a new thread: The question behind this is how annoying is annoying enough to have teeth, but not so annoying that its in the table-flipping territory?

 

For myself, I'll support anything that allows refused pairs to be reset, no matter the time. But my preferred solutions is for it to take on average 2 or more months to undo a refusal. For that Ice x Silver? I'd have used it in a heartbeat, because it took me several months to get each new Ice, and I ended up having to get FIVE of them.

 

Now, "on average, several months" doesn't mean that each cooldown is several months. It means, for instance:

 

Scenario 1:

Breeding Cooldown: 2 weeks

Chance of refusal being reset: 12.5%

Average number of attempts to succeed: 5.5 ish

Average time to reset a refusal: 7 weeks, or 2.5 months

 

Scenario 2:

Breeding Cooldown: 4 weeks

Chance of refusal being reset: 25%

Average number of attempts to succeed: 2.5 ish

Average time to reset a refusal: 7 weeks, or 2.5 months

 

Scenario 3:

Breeding Cooldown: 8 weeks

hance of refusal being reset: 50%

Average time to reset a refusal: 8 weeks (or a bit over 1.5 months, remember..... 30 days in a month, not 28)

 

So you see, each scenario has the same average time to re-set a refusal, but the cooldown vis a vis odds of success mean they feel very different to a user. I'd prefer something like the first, with a shorter cooldown but lower odds of success. That way, I can keep trying for a replacement and if it turns up, can re-try the pair with the new mate then. But the first would probably be more "frustrating", because of the repetition. But it also opens the chance for being unlucky / lucky. And of course, you could always add a fail-safe in: after x attempts, the refusal re-sets no matter what. So, after 6 months of trying, it'll re-set.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[Sir Barton]

For me refusals are already meaningless unless the point is to stop me from breeding entirely because I'm already well beyond frustrated and into the "I don't need this crap" category.

 

If it would take me an average of two months to reset a refusal, I would prefer a guarantee reset when I need it and a six month to a year cool down.

 

I mainly breed for others, and the no egg, no interest are already bad enough. If I'm looking at months of trying to reset that refusal, then all I'm doing is compounding my irritation until I either give up or finally get the egg and forget who wanted it in the first place.

 

Yes, anything is better than what we have, and I can roll with Marri's idea as long as I'm not giving up my breeding options for months on end while I try to fix the fallout of this game breaking worthless mechanic.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Sir Barton

[Obscure_Trash]

I kinda prefer a BSA over a general action just because I support more BSAs. However, preference is still standing with just removing them, so my preference there seems rather moot.

 

It doesn't make sense to me to keep refusals annoying through a reversing mechanic because isn't that why we're having this discussion? I agree with making any compromise reverse less annoying over more annoying.

 

There are still obstacles to breeding - no interest and getting the right breed - without refusals.

[Ribombee]

I kinda prefer a BSA over a general action just because I support more BSAs. However, preference is still standing with just removing them, so my preference there seems rather moot.

 

It doesn't make sense to me to keep refusals annoying through a reversing mechanic because isn't that why we're having this discussion? I agree with making any compromise reverse less annoying over more annoying.

 

There are still obstacles to breeding - no interest and getting the right breed - without refusals.

I definitely agree that removing them is the best option of all. As you mentioned, we already have plenty of built-in breeding challenge and frustration.

 

However, barring that, anything at all that helps is most welcome. I'm a pretty patient person, to be honest, but when something is game-breaking in its level of annoyance, I have my limits.

[Syphoneira]

 

... However, preference is still standing with just removing them...

 

It doesn't make sense to me to keep refusals annoying through a reversing mechanic because isn't that why we're having this discussion? I agree with making any compromise reverse less annoying over more annoying.

 

There are still obstacles to breeding - no interest and getting the right breed - without refusals.

 

 

 

I couldn't agree more with the quoted areas of your post.

 

People simply don't use actions/BSAs that are ineffective and annoying.

 

I, like many others, certainly will never use Earthquake, in example.

 

 

I and many others also find Refusals to be utterly pointless and to be ruining some of the main points for many members,

 

one of which is collecting dragons, often predominately with prospective lineages in mind,

 

another breeding, with existing, hoped-for and future dragons,

 

another, which is getting away from such things as pointless stress, loss and frustration

 

and another, having fun

 

typically by successfully engaging in the above while building beautiful lineages and breeding to gift, trade and collect - achievements, plans and efforts regarding which can be pointlessly spoilt at any moment by Refusals.

 

What point is there remaining to playing DC other than the above, for many of those who already have too much stress, disappointment and frustration in their lives and don't want more in their leisure time activities, which are undertaken specifically in order to get away from such situations, relax and enjoy the moment?

 

Refusals may add something for some, but for the rest of us, losing what we're here for isn't a plus, but a discouraging disaster.

 

The only reason we're not begging for outright removal of Refusals is that some people DO like pointless frustration and wasted dragons.

 

In order to actually improve this situation, we need something that will help people who just want to play, while allowing those who prefer to be randomly stymied that option.

 

Seriously, making things even more frustrating for members already finding breeding too much of a stressful and too-often crushing endeavour isn't a fix.

 

It's more like insisting that since deep, suspension-destroying potholes are enjoyed as a challenge by some, not only must they must be kept on one lane for those who like them, but that boulders must be added to any areas which might otherwise have been repaired.

 

 

The best compromise would be something optional where those who prefer to have Refusals can continue to have them, while those who find Refusals (and chronic worry about Refusals on all-important pairings) to be ruining many of the main points of playing the game can have this problem solved.

 

Marri's suggestion sounds pretty darn good to at least some of the commenters here, and I'd like to hear what more of the people seeking a solution for their most important Refusals think of it before a bunch of crippling restrictions are added to make it functionally useless even for keeping up with the most essential Refusal-ruined pairings, never mind the enormous backlog of priceless lineage opportunities going to waste which some have accumulated, especially through this period of what certainly appears to be a radical increase in Refusals.

[olympe]

I kinda prefer a BSA over a general action just because I support more BSAs. However, preference is still standing with just removing them, so my preference there seems rather moot.

 

It doesn't make sense to me to keep refusals annoying through a reversing mechanic because isn't that why we're having this discussion? I agree with making any compromise reverse less annoying over more annoying.

 

There are still obstacles to breeding - no interest and getting the right breed - without refusals.

*applauds*

 

I have to agree with that. I think I could live quite well without refusals. No interest, no egg produced and the wrong egg produced are enough of an obstacle already, not to mention trading for the "perfect" mates.

[Pixxelation]

I kinda prefer a BSA over a general action just because I support more BSAs. However, preference is still standing with just removing them, so my preference there seems rather moot.

 

It doesn't make sense to me to keep refusals annoying through a reversing mechanic because isn't that why we're having this discussion? I agree with making any compromise reverse less annoying over more annoying.

 

There are still obstacles to breeding - no interest and getting the right breed - without refusals.

This (except I'm reversed in my preference of an action over a BSA for something this vital to gameplay XP). If the mechanic used to reverse refusals takes months to be successful, and you add months of breeding for some rares after fixing said refusal, it could still take over a year for one to actually get an egg. If the reversing mechanic is nigh-impossible (or still results in permanent refusals, as Harmonize would), then I'd much rather go with one of the other suggestions made in this thread: remove refusals, or modify them to be less game-breaking.

Edited March 11, 2015 by PieMaster

[Syphoneira]

This (except I'm reversed in my preference of an action over a BSA for something this vital to gameplay XP). If the mechanic used to reverse refusals takes months to be successful, and you add months of breeding for some rares after fixing said refusal, it could still take over a year for one to actually get an egg. If the reversing mechanic is nigh-impossible (or still results in permanent refusals, as Harmonize would), then I'd much rather go with one of the other suggestions made in this thread: remove refusals, or modify them to be less game-breaking.

 

 

Me, too, I really do think that essential actions ought to be built into the game.

 

 

Something like that horror which you describe above is functionally useless, not a real fix at all, and I totally agree that something which (edit: would) actually work as a fix would be desirable.

 

With some dragons, one may only get a few eggs from them in a year, at least within my experience.

 

Making an already slow/frustrating process even slower/more frustrating at best reduces the reasons for people coming to DC on a more frequent basis.

 

At worst, they lose interest and drift off in ever-larger numbers, returning perhaps only for known Releases, such as Holidays.

 

I would think that from most viewpoints, making DC more fun is the only practical thing to do.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Syphoneira

[Akiresa]

id keep refusal if u try to breed tiny dragon with huge cause thats just not possible

[olympe]

You can't even try to breed pygmies with regular dragons, so they don't even have a chance to refuse. What we're talking about are refusals between dragons that, theoretically, should be able to breed.

Edited March 12, 2015 by olympe

[Akiresa]

yeah those refusas are annoying as hell

[stagazer_7]

Ugh, I just had this refuse this, just peachy. Seriously, the rate of refusals is crazy - I just had 2 refusals in a row just now. From the bottom of my heart I hope something will be done about this. Complete removal, making refusals temporary (changing one's mind is possible), a BSA to some breed of dragons - I wouldn't care if they slapped it onto Hellfires (for example, Shipper BSA - just look at them, would you truly dare to sink their boat?), just as long as something is done to fix this refusal crisis, because at this rate I'm afraid each time I try out a new pairing (with good reason too).

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Ugh, I just had this refuse this, just peachy. Seriously, the rate of refusals is crazy - I just had 2 refusals in a row just now. From the bottom of my heart I hope something will be done about this. Complete removal, making refusals temporary (changing one's mind is possible), a BSA to some breed of dragons - I wouldn't care if they slapped it onto Hellfires (for example, Shipper BSA - just look at them, would you truly dare to sink their boat?), just as long as something is done to fix this refusal crisis, because at this rate I'm afraid each time I try out a new pairing (with good reason too).

I've had a Silver x Rosebud 3G refuse his checker mate earlier this week and had a 4g Silver x SW checker refuse his mate after halloween. I feel your pain. >___<

 

Shipper BSA made me laugh X'D

[stagazer_7]

I've had a Silver x Rosebud 3G refuse his checker mate earlier this week and had a 4g Silver x SW checker refuse his mate after halloween. I feel your pain. >___<

 

Shipper BSA made me laugh X'D

Auch, these are even more painful since higher gen mates are even more challenging to find - if I get a replacemet Silver for my Rosebud, I'll be sure to send an egg your way.

 

Heh, during my rant I pictured a shippy Hellfire being all: OMG, you two are just PERFECT together! <3 and the response of the (un)lucky pair something along these lines:

Well, are you going to break the news to her or I?

You know, maybe hooking up isn't such a bad idea.

Agreed.

*pair produces egg*

*and there was much rejoicing*

 

Made me feel a bit better. :3

 

Back to the topic, a big YES to anything being done to make refusals not being such a downer on DC's gameplay. <3

Edited March 13, 2015 by stagazer_7

[Ribombee]

OMG! A shipper BSA! I'm rolling here!

 

Literally the only good thing about refusals happening to holiday pairs is that you CAN get an egg out of them. You just have to wait a year and not care that the egg you will get is the holiday egg. So if you already have another pair that you bred a holiday from, their offspring is useless to you unless you find another mate altogether.

[djengis]

Test bred all my new valentines....8 refusals , 3 in a row too, I'm annoyed.

and when i bred my brutes earlier, i also had several refusals , so thats a lot in day

Edited March 15, 2015 by djengis

[Ardath Rekha]

Something needs to be changed. I'm about ready to give up on several of the lineages I've been working on. Too many dead ends and "sorry, try back in a year." I do seasonal patterns; if they reject their mates, it may take me a year (or more) to produce a replacement with the right patterns and colors. It's as vexing as holiday eggs.

 

Why are refusal rates suddenly sky-high like this? I started doing lineages because I no longer have the free time to stalk the cave itself, so I figured this would be a way to keep the fun going; lately, "fun" isn't the word I'd use for the results I'm getting.

[KuroYukia]

Test bred all my new valentines....8 refusals , 3 in a row too, I'm annoyed.

and when i bred my brutes earlier, i also had several refusals , so thats a lot in  day

 

.

test breeding with a refusal isn't a big deal. They'll still breed true come the holidays anyway, refusals are cut off for the holiday they're chosen.

 

With the lineages getting refusals, just find trades or stalk the forums for players with the right lineages and see about trading with them.

 

I'm still going against full getting rid of refusals though for the above reasons though

Edited March 17, 2015 by KuroYukia

[Ruby Eyes]

Yeah, sure ... stalking the forum for ages hoping to find someone with the same lineage ... that's *not* exactly the fun in *breeding*, you see.

[Laura-Lana]

test breeding with a refusal isn't a big deal. They'll still breed true come the holidays anyway, refusals are cut off for the holiday they're chosen.

 

With the lineages getting refusals, just find trades or stalk the forums for players with the right lineages and see about trading with them.

 

I'm still going against full getting rid of refusals though for the above reasons though

I see nothing 'game breaking' about refusal. On the contrary I think taking it out of DC would make it less interesting. Yes, it can be extremly inconvenient if it happens at the wrong time (had that happen to me too), but it's part of what makes dragon cave more realistic, more challenging and thus ultimatively more fun when things do work out.

I think having a 'refamilize' BSA would be a good compromise though. Especially if the sucess of that action wasn't guaranteed.

Edited March 17, 2015 by Laura-Lana

[Pixxelation]

Again, second gen prizes and second gens from artist alts aren't exactly easy to replace, particularly when the artist goes inactive. And zombie lines can't be rebred, since one parent is dead. Refusals in their current form are game breaking by definition, as they limit a major gameplay mechanic in ways that discourage players from becoming invested in the game.

 

This thread is not simply about removing refusals entirely; it is for discussing non-BSA ideas to limit the damage refusals can cause, of which my of us prefer entirely eliminating them.

 

Please read the OP; it explains this better :3

Edited March 17, 2015 by PieMaster