More releases/ Bigger releases

[Spelunker]

For those who like collecting breeds currently in-cave-

 

maybe this would help?

[Shamiir]

I would simply love to see more of these draggies released before I become to old to see them.

Whether one collects all or only their favorites should be a matter of choice.

[Pokemonfan13]

I also think we need more dragons from the Completed List released. So many are from the artists' section that it seems like breeds from the list are almost never released, making so many time-consuming projects worthless, especially ones many people support *CoughUndinesCough* The completed list favorites thread is useful to see what the public wants released.

TJ removes ideas from the completed list a while before he releases them, making it seem like more are private than really are since many are forgotten about in the meantime.

[DarkEternity]

The enthusiam over the raffles proves that most players don't (...)want to have a caveborn of everything any more

I strongly disagree. In incessantly asking or 'suggesting' for more CB prizes to be distributed (some people asked for up to 10x more winners), CB prizes which 'everyone' could get, prizes which were only alts of a species found in cave and prizes which people could earn, I believe that it is a fact that most EVERYBODY wants a caveborn dragon, as is evidenced by the closure of at least three threads due to individuals attacking each other over the prizes, expressing general displeasure about the limited quantity of CBs, complaining that the creation of lineages is damaged, wishing for the distribution of exclusive CBs to be discontinued altogether, suggesting that CB alts be obtainable through the cave and expressing general dissatisfaction that there are so few CB dragons of these specific species. I have a general image of a fairly disillusioned DC population as the result of the distribution of practically impossible to obtain CB dragons: here and on the IRC I have heard multiple complaints about ultra limited CBs - please do not make broad generalisations about whether or not we want CBs.

 

Either way, I think there is little correlation between the distribution of prizes and the distribution of new releases, or I rather hope that more than 0.00000000000001% of people are going to get these new releases :c

[Cinnamin Draconna]

TJ removes ideas from the completed list a while before he releases them, making it seem like more are private than really are since many are forgotten about in the meantime.

Proof positive that he's too darn slow on releasing stuff. Making us wait until we 'forget' what was on the list is like super dumb. All that does is make the list get longer and longer and longer.

 

If the sprite is ready and up to standard, release the darn things already.. especially the ones that have been sitting on the completed list for freaking years. I've been waiting on the Spider Dragon and the Cobweb Dragon to be released for Halloween since the year after the Vampires were released.

 

There are so many good dragons on the completed list that it's ridiculous. Some of them have been there so long that their artists aren't even around anymore.. meaning we'll never get them.. which means that they should be removed from the list, so we'll quit hoping they'll be released. Like the Dovewing Dragons from Dovealove that will NEVER be available, and those were some darn AWESOME dragons.

 

EDIT: just checked.. it seems the Dovewing Dragons and the Cobweb Dragon have been removed from the list. Would be nice to know why the Cobweb has been removed. But the Spider Dragon is still on the completed list, and it's been waiting for 5 years.

Edited March 7, 2013 by Cinnamin Draconna

[siliconrose]

Many of the issues brought up here are ones of our own making.

 

Cave blockers? They exist because there's breeds we, the players, refuse to pick up or hold on to.

Oh, please don't pull out this argument. Have you heard of the tragedy of the commons? You are not going to get enough of a community to willingly abstain from selfish behavior that has no intrinsic consequences in order to create a system even approaching perfection.

 

If that is the game, the game is unwinnable. It is, in fact, unplayable.

[Pokemonfan13]

Proof positive that he's too darn slow on releasing stuff. Making us wait until we 'forget' what was on the list is like super dumb. All that does is make the list get longer and longer and longer.

 

If the sprite is ready and up to standard, release the darn things already.. especially the ones that have been sitting on the completed list for freaking years. I've been waiting on the Spider Dragon and the Cobweb Dragon to be released for Halloween since the year after the Vampires were released.

 

There are so many good dragons on the completed list that it's ridiculous. Some of them have been there so long that their artists aren't even around anymore.. meaning we'll never get them.. which means that they should be removed from the list, so we'll quit hoping they'll be released. Like the Dovewing Dragons from Dovealove that will NEVER be available, and those were some darn AWESOME dragons.

 

EDIT: just checked.. it seems the Dovewing Dragons and the Cobweb Dragon have been removed from the list. Would be nice to know why the Cobweb has been removed. But the Spider Dragon is still on the completed list, and it's been waiting for 5 years.

I don't disagree that it's a tragedy that so many awesome dragons have been sitting around for so long. But that has nothing to do with TJ's system of sitting on dragons from the public list before releasing them.

[~!~]

Oh, please don't pull out this argument. Have you heard of the tragedy of the commons? You are not going to get enough of a community to willingly abstain from selfish behavior that has no intrinsic consequences in order to create a system even approaching perfection.

 

If that is the game, the game is unwinnable. It is, in fact, unplayable.

I agree wholeheartedly with this. A game that requires people to behave contrary to their own interests in order to get what they want may be a good metaphor for life or whatever, but it certainly isn't going to be very fun. Games are not about learning lessons, and they're not about altruism--they're about fun.

[Pokemonfan13]

I agree. The ratios are never going to work well if they rely on people doing stuff they don't want to do to work well, ie raising blockers.

 

 

I personally don't use my egg slots much any more, so I use them to raise unwanted eggs from the AP and abandon the hatchlings, but I'm sure I'm the exception, not the rule.

 

 

Edit:

*blink* Why are we discussing ratio problems in the more releases thread? It doesn't seem particularly on topic to me, especially when we have a thread for figuring out how to make the ratios work better.

Edited March 7, 2013 by Pokemonfan13

[stardust13]

Whoa, whoa. My statement was of fact, not finger-wagging. We don't pick up certain breeds, they become cave blockers. I didn't say we should start picking them up. I don't, and I don't expect anyone else to.

 

But, thinking about it, I do think that constantly poking at TJ to solve the "problem" of cave blockers is wrong. We make the problem, we should learn to live with it, not expect TJ to constantly tweak the game in our favor. And, as someone else said, you're never going to solve the problem of cave blockers anyway.

 

If anyone got through the rest of my post, cool. ^^

 

And, hey, if we get 2 new breeds a month, at least we have NEW cave-blockers to look forward to! (keepin' it on-topic)

[Shamiir]

I strongly disagree. In incessantly asking or 'suggesting' for more CB prizes to be distributed (some people asked for up to 10x more winners), CB prizes which 'everyone' could get, prizes which were only alts of a species found in cave and prizes which people could earn, I believe that it is a fact that most EVERYBODY wants a caveborn dragon, as is evidenced by the closure of at least three threads due to individuals attacking each other over the prizes, expressing general displeasure about the limited quantity of CBs, complaining that the creation of lineages is damaged, wishing for the distribution of exclusive CBs to be discontinued altogether, suggesting that CB alts be obtainable through the cave and expressing general dissatisfaction that there are so few CB dragons of these specific species. I have a general image of a fairly disillusioned DC population as the result of the distribution of practically impossible to obtain CB dragons: here and on the IRC I have heard multiple complaints about ultra limited CBs - please do not make broad generalisations about whether or not we want CBs.

 

Either way, I think there is little correlation between the distribution of prizes and the distribution of new releases, or I rather hope that more than 0.00000000000001% of people are going to get these new releases :c

In turn, I strongly disagree that you are disagreeing

 

What you say actually supports what I am saying (in a tongue-in-cheek fashion).

 

In wanting wider and more raffles, players are still not wanting neither themselves nor others to be able to have a 'cave of everything'

 

What they are wanting, is to throw a tantrum when they are not amongst the lucky few to get one prize and thus be able to trade for 2nds of the others. Elitism in its finest hour. (Rats, that tongue in cheek again)

 

Sirriusly...

I know that players want CB's. That's the point, isn't it?

But you wouldn't think it by the way so many go raffle-crazy...

 

Still, I can agree with Thuban that there is really no need for players to get 'everything' - 'now'. It's fun to have something to collect all month long, to not be finished caving in the first week.

Mod Mayhem was one of the best fun times.

 

 

 

 

[DarkEternity]

In turn, I strongly disagree that you are disagreeing 

 

What you say actually supports what I am saying (in a tongue-in-cheek fashion).

 

In wanting wider and more raffles, players are still not wanting neither themselves nor others to be able to have a 'cave of everything'

 

What they are wanting, is to throw a tantrum when they are not amongst the lucky few to get one prize and thus be able to trade for 2nds of the others. Elitism in its finest hour. (Rats, that tongue in cheek again)

 

Sirriusly...

I know that players want CB's. That's the point, isn't it?

But you wouldn't think it by the way so many go raffle-crazy...

 

Still, I can agree with Thuban that there is really no need for players to get 'everything' - 'now'. It's fun to have something to collect all month long, to not be finished caving in the first week.

Mod Mayhem was one of the best fun times.

It's a good point, I should use it more often, though in a less extreme wording since I got warned last time ^^;; (like, people also want CBs but don't want other people to get CBs)

Oh yes, I remember the infamous Mod Mayhem. More than four breeds would be excessive though

Edited March 7, 2013 by DarkEternity

[Shamiir]

I agree that more than 4 would be excessive.

I would even say that 4 would be maybe for a special theme, rather than the rule every month.

From that aspect, the poll is very limiting.

 

Aside from the fun of discussing 'what we would like', wouldn't the amount be up to TJ anyway?

He may well choose a themed set that has 2 different breeds but varying sprites for example. Or 3 straight breeds...

Or any other grouping/theme of his choice.

IMO only TJ will be able to judge what and how many and why, when it comes down to decision time.

[Wolfs_Bane]

Proof positive that he's too darn slow on releasing stuff. Making us wait until we 'forget' what was on the list is like super dumb. All that does is make the list get longer and longer and longer.

 

If the sprite is ready and up to standard, release the darn things already.. especially the ones that have been sitting on the completed list for freaking years. I've been waiting on the Spider Dragon and the Cobweb Dragon to be released for Halloween since the year after the Vampires were released.

 

There are so many good dragons on the completed list that it's ridiculous. Some of them have been there so long that their artists aren't even around anymore.. meaning we'll never get them.. which means that they should be removed from the list, so we'll quit hoping they'll be released. Like the Dovewing Dragons from Dovealove that will NEVER be available, and those were some darn AWESOME dragons.

 

EDIT: just checked.. it seems the Dovewing Dragons and the Cobweb Dragon have been removed from the list. Would be nice to know why the Cobweb has been removed. But the Spider Dragon is still on the completed list, and it's been waiting for 5 years.

I really agree with what is being said here, 100% in fact. I always thought it was a bit odd he did this, as it made no sense to make us forget what we have been dreaming of. I've been waiting on a few of those dragons I've seen. I voted for at least 2 a month, that way we finally get the dragons we always wanted thus making the list move faster.

 

WB

[gistofeverything]

unwinnable

...

unplayable

I must disagree. That's not what we're here to play DC for. This is merely a game of collecting pixels, and, while variety is nice, is absolutely not necessary to extract the purpose from this game: to collect and raise dragons.

 

On topic, however, it would be awful to have more than 1 every two weeks; I'd even settle for 1 per month. I'm horribly behind on the releases as they are... I don't think I've even bred a UV (let alone catch a new Speckle-throated dragon...), so I don't want it to be too frequent...

 

Support for 1-2/month.

Edited March 7, 2013 by gistofeverything

[Red2111]

Oh, please don't pull out this argument. Have you heard of the tragedy of the commons? You are not going to get enough of a community to willingly abstain from selfish behavior that has no intrinsic consequences in order to create a system even approaching perfection.

 

If that is the game, the game is unwinnable. It is, in fact, unplayable.

but they do have a point, it is a self created problem.

 

however, i do agree with you. you cannot force people to take more of a dragon they dont want; just as your not goign to get a group of people who dont want a cave blocker to give up precious egg space for the Cave Blocker. atleast not without some sort of reward for their effort; like the Cave Blockers thread over in the trading section.

 

 

but, something does have to be done abotu the cave blockign issue, which WILL only get worse the more dragons that are released. we need a perminate solution, not a temporary one.

 

migration sounds good, but the sdown side is that after the initial come back, those cave blockers will once again turn into cave blockers. this is imo the 2nd best option.

 

adding more eggs or more biodomes or another line of eggs; this will only cause the cave blockers to block at a larger rate imo

 

the 3rd good option was the auto abandon; but this seems like it woudl cause more problems with the AP. we'd probably see the AP over burdened message much more often; and truely this just shifts the blocker issue over to the AP. and a fair amount of people enjoy hunting in the AP.

 

 

the last (and best) option is tweaking the cave blockers breed ratios. if a dragon is so neglected by majority of players, why is the dragon still dropping super often? it seems like the easiest, best and less ripple effect option would be to tweak the dragons breeding ratio so that they produce or drop less.

 

this will have the desired effect.

 

1 - i imagine it would be easier for TJ to occomplish than the others.

 

2 - they would still drop all year round, so collectors woudl still get their 4 day fix of fresh blood and newbies woudlnt' have to wait for their season to come in for scroll completion (plus the issue brought up with rejections on lineage projects)

 

3 - it woudl increase the value slightly of the common cave blockers and make them more desireble

 

4 - less frequent drops (like as frequent as a Ridgewing, Sunset, Pillow, Vine, ect) moves the cave faster.

 

 

so take pebbles for instance, instead of dropping 100 per hour in the Volcano, only drop 75 each hour.

 

 

Stardust - you say that by asking TJ to solve the issue instead of just dealing with the consequences is not a good way togo about it. but think abotu it this way.

 

if this were RL, these cave blockers woudl be labeled nusance speicies. how do we, humans, deal with current nusance species IRL already? we cull their population. Deer for instance, we have scheduled seasons where hunting is permitted to cut out a good portion of their population to keep their numbers in check. here in the South, we also do this with Gators; in Australia, they do this with Kangaroos.

 

why should the cave be any different? imo, Cave Blockers need to have their ratios culled because they are a nusance to cave hunting and thats how it would be handled IRL.

 

again, i point to the Vines, who used to be cave blockers if i recall. now they drop infrequently though they are a common dragon, go for nothign onthe trade market but only sit in the jungle for maybe 2 minutes before a person picks them up. the same could happen for pebbles, mints, and other cave blockers.

[Shajana]

We should talk about more releases/ bigger releases and not about cave blockers, it is not a theme from this thread.

 

In my opinion we should see how it will work when we get 1-2 new releases a month and then see what will happen.

[Red2111]

i'll make a new thread for it then, with a poll option on how to deal with it.

 

the main problem and why this is relavent to the discussion of more releases is because more breds release more frequently will increase the rate and amount of cave blockers. so we have to consider both of these issues at the same time.

 

its simply the 6 P's "Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance" and working with foresight rather in hind sight.

 

edit - i didn't mean for the issue to derail this thread though

Edited March 7, 2013 by Red2111

[purplehaze]

I agree that we should give TJ's plan a chance before we automatically decide that it is too much. I personally think it sounds like a pretty good compromise between hunters and breeders. I do think we need more dragons added than has been done recently.

 

And there are already other threads for discussing blockers, so yes, let's stick to more/bigger releases here. Except as you think more releases will affect blocking. While they could be related, this is not the place to go into detail about solutions to that possible problem.

Edited March 7, 2013 by purplehaze

[olympe]

Another way to prevent too much blockage is to add biomes once there are enough breeds. If I counted correctly, our biomes have between 14 (Desert) and 29 breeds (Jungle). As we all know, Jungle and Forest (28 breeds) are almost constantly blocked, and Coast (22 breeds) isn't much better. On the other hand, Desert and - right now - Alpine (26 breeds) empty pretty quickly, the latter probably due to the new release.

 

If you count how many uncommons each biome has that you can't find in all biomes, things get even more obvious:

• Alpine has Ices, GWs, Tri-Horns and the new ones (which still are an unknown quantity), as well as the ridgewings, which have a rarer coloration (tan ridgewings). That's at least four uncommon kinds of eggs out of 24 breeds.
• Coast has Blusangs and Tsunamis, the latter of which might not be quite uncommon. That's only two out of 22.
• Desert has Thunders, Nebulas, Reds and a guarantee that a "bright pink" egg belongs to a Pink dragon. That's 4 out of 15.
• Forest has Stripes, Vines and Glory Drakes - if you want to count the latter. I don't want to count Leetle Trees because you can only have one of them. Anyway, this is 2, maybe 3 (Glories) kind of desirable eggs out of 28.
• Jungle, like Forest, has Stripes, Vines and all kinds of Dinos. Maybe we want to add Sunsongs to the list, maybe we don't. In any case, this is 7, maybe 8 desirables out of 29 breeds. Unless you don't like dinos, which reduces the desirables to 2 out of 29.
• Volcano has Pinks (with a guarantee for a pink egg), Reds and Magmas as desirable breeds. That's 3 out of 17 breeds. Maybe 4 or 5, if we add Hellfires and/or Embers to the list.

What we could use is a couple of uncommons for Jungle and Forest (and maybe Coast and Volcano), to make up for the many commons and blockers in there.

 

Also, it seems that an ideal number of breeds in one biome is around 20. 30 is already pretty much. So, maybe we need more biomes as the number of breeds increases, so that there are no more than 30 breeds in any one biome.

 

Please also take into account that any biome would already start out with the breeds that are all over the place - Golds, Silvers, Blacks, Pinks, Cheeses, Papers, Greys, Luminas, Splits and Whites. That's already 10 breeds - so all it takes for a new biome is 5 to 10 new breeds for starters.

Edited March 7, 2013 by olympe

[Natayah]

I -love- this idea. I would also support several dragons being released at once. I would support anything that helps us even out our dragon species. Right now we seem to have a glut of Western Dragons, and other types with only 1 or 2 breeds. We have favored biomes and biomes that sit. But more than that, we have a -HUGE- list of completed dragons that people are dying to have.

 

Here's the way I look at the list. Lets say we have.... 500 Dragons on the Completed List. And for simple math, lets say we are going to release the top tier 10% due to artistic skill, player demand, or TJ's whim. Whatever. So thats 50 dragons we are going to release.

 

Now we are going to release .... what was it ... 14 dragons a year?? That's 3.5 years. This doesn't even include "special" dragons in cave artists produce, the fact that I'm pretty sure the list is longer than that, and the fact that people keep adding more to the list. And there are many good ideas from that list. Probably a bit more than 10% worth at least considering.

 

The draw to this game has a lot to do with the talent of its spriters. And the spriters and dragon creators need to be figured into this equation too. Because at some time or another, a lot of players want to learn to sprite or submit dragon creation ideas.

 

I am sure as we release more dragons, TJ will be able to think of some sort of evolution of the game to expand these new dragons into a playable fashion. Between the age at which he created the game, and the school he attends, thats enough to tell me he has a brain. And he has a vested interest in keeping this game alive and active for several reasons. On top of his personal brain, he has an entire forum full of suggested ideas to use. I think together, we can make it thru this difficult transition.

 

Besides, I don't think we are going to have 60 dragons stuffed into each biome. There are plenty of "biomes" that exist that we don't use. Instead of making a list, I'll just link: Biome List - Wikipedia. Some of the Biomes are similar, but if we get a lot of that dragon type, instead of just stuffing them all into the Mountains, we can create Polar, Tundra, Caverns or whatever else we need to do. Or some Mountains in Warmer Climates.

 

I believe that together we can overcome polarizing fear from the unknown and chart new territory into unexplored potential.

Edited March 7, 2013 by natayah

[Red2111]

okay the thread for the Cave Blockers discussion has been made.

 

http://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?act=S...=0#entry7094904

 

 

i see that one of the biggest reasons for this is the artist list and that we're losing of concepts to other sites. and i want to address these two issues and why they shouldn't be the central reason for this decision.

 

 

breeding list

 

everyone points out the number of dragons on this list, and that more are being added every day. is it possible that the problem here isn't that we aren't releasing fast enough, but that the list isn't pruned enough to remove the "never will be released" dragons off of it?

 

there was also mention of Artists goign inactive; i think that, if an artist goes inactive then their art should be removed from the list, or a new list made to house them.

 

Sprites whose creators are still active on the site and those who have been waiting longer, should get priority with releases.

 

 

losing concept artwork

 

this is simple economics. Dragon Cave is one of the older sites for "free collectable and raisable goodies" on the internet. what we're seeing now, is the Starbucks example.

 

When Starbucks first opened up, it was a hit. there were no coffee/pastery shops and the market for that commodity boomed. More people went into this business and opened up their own version of Starbucks.

 

but, every commodity market has a Floor and a Ceiling. When too many Coffee shops flooded the market, Supply over shot Demand forcing Price to go down. as a result, Coffe Shops left the market because there was no profit. Now the market has stabalized.

 

right now, we are seeing the Boom of "internet collectables". Eventually, supply (ot the amount) of these sorts of sites will hit its peak and we'll see these less established sites go away. the more established sites will grow then in both number base and the concept art we lost as a result will come back to us off of those sites that fail.

 

simply Supply and Demand Economics.

 

increasing our supply will have some effect, such as making it harder for the other sites to compete and making this site more established and more attractive; bt in the long run this problem will solve itself and this may create more problems for our site as it will become expected that "X" amount of new releases happen per year.

 

 

too much supply has killed just as many markets as not enough supply

[Obscure_Trash]

Moar, moar, moar! Anything that gets me moar new pretties. x3 I'm one of those few people who would be okay with doing away with holidays to get more regular releases, lol. =P

 

~

 

Let's stick with TJ's proposition of two every month. Say there's one S1, two S2's, and two adults for each. If you want to collect two of every sprite, that's 20 sprites. Without incubate, it takes three days for an egg with enough views to hatch. Assuming you're straight collecting these new breeds and not incubating, you shouldn't hit total limits. Let's consider no trophy. Four egg spots. Not accounting for hunting time, the minimal amount of time it will take you to reach that goal is fifteen days. That leaves half the month to collect other things you still need. For bronze, twelve days. That leaves more than half the month to collect other things you need. Silver, a little more than nine days. That still leaves three/fourths of the month to collect what you need. Gold, also somewhere around nine days.

 

If my math is correct...that's not really too much of setback, is it? Still time in between releases trying to catch things or breed what you want or leaves you the ability to hunt new releases and do whatever else if you split spots.

 

I'm not too worried about new users catching up. I took about a year long absence. In that time, cheeses, the purple dino, trios, and stripes were all released - just in the category of things harder to get. I managed to get them all (actually got a purple dino surprisingly quickly, too) plus all the other releases I hadn't got. This didn't run me away from the game again. It was exciting, especially as someone who had started out the game only wanting one of everything and quickly managed that, wondered what the heck to do, and hesitantly started wanting two of everything. I've met and surpassed my goal in looking for everything. If a new users plays, there's plenty for them to do, but it's not overwhelming by any means. There are many sites where the only way to get old releases is to trade for them, sites where you can create customs, sites where there are so many breeding combinations they all have many more pets than us, and yet they are still wildly popular and attract new users.

 

I am much more worried when older users can't catch a release than when new users can't catch a gold, silver, dino, and blusang on their first day. However, hopefully with split releases and with scheduled releases, what people find desirable will grow more and interest will be more spread out and older users will be able to find breeds that were previously evading them. I do also think scheduled releases will help so users don't come back a few days later and realize what happened. Yeah, more people at a release, probably, but you'll always get people who forget or who just can't make it, even knowing what's going on.

 

So yeah, totally for this, and glad that people are being good sports and are willing to at least try this out. <3

[Coronaviridae]

My one concern with more frequent releases is the phenomenon we're seeing right now due to the recent Speckle-Throat release: when AP blocking is disabled, the AP very rapidly hits a thousand egg+ backlog and the biomes are subsequently only available hourly for the next several days after a release.

 

More frequent releases would be wonderful, I agree, but not "AP block on the biomes for the entire month except during release days".

[olympe]

My one concern with more frequent releases is the phenomenon we're seeing right now due to the recent Speckle-Throat release: when AP blocking is disabled, the AP very rapidly hits a thousand egg+ backlog and the biomes are subsequently only available hourly for the next several days after a release.

 

More frequent releases would be wonderful, I agree, but not "AP block on the biomes for the entire month except during release days".

Unfortunately, this is a very, very good point.

 

Maybe it would help if we didn't have a 2-breed release every month, but a 4-to-six-breed release every other month? (If it's a 6-breed release, at least one or two breeds should be hybrids or alts or color morphs of existing dragons, not all of them need to be available in the cave.)