Change the Holidays

[Vhale]

This.

 

Diversity isn't about eradicating the things others don't believe, it's about acknowledging and respecting different cultures whether or not you believe what they believe.

 

How about instead of subtracting from what we have already we just add to it to include more people?

Better stated than I would have done it. For every post complaining about the poll and how people only want others to be inclusive, there's another about removing Christmas from descriptions etc. I imagine a LOT of the reaction is from those of us that have had holidays removed from work, school, church because someone got a stick up their bum and decided it was offensive for some reason. It sucks. And yes, I've seen all three happen. I'm sure if someone wanted to propose a nice cultural event to TJ, he'd listen. And if someone submitted a nice dragon that was not specifically Christmasy, I wouldn't be surprised if he took it.

 

Has anyone ever tried? Because people are giving off the impression that the population is sitting around with this wonderful big thing and greedily won't share. When the fact is, we don't have control over it. It's all pushed in secret by the artists that come up with it. If none of them are feeling artistically motivated by another holiday, all that happens is TJ gets no submissions.

[Slaskia]

My only issue with the proposal is the fact that it would be impossible to make everyone happy. There's always going to be someone that is offended/upset by any change we make.

 

Other than that, I really don't care.

[eritated]

My only issue with the proposal is the fact that it would be impossible to make everyone happy.  There's always going to be someone that is offended/upset by any change we make.

 

Other than that, I really don't care.

How could someone be offended by just a generic "Winter holiday" or something along those lines? If that were put in place nobody's holiday would be celebrated, therefore I don't see how they could be upset, because their holiday would not be the only one "excluded", all of them would be.

 

[Sir Barton]

How could someone be offended by just a generic "Winter holiday" or something along those lines? If that were put in place nobody's holiday would be celebrated, therefore I don't see how they could be upset, because their holiday would not be the only one "excluded", all of them would be.

 

Pretty sure it's not the inclusion bit that will make people unhappy, it's the change from what they already accept.

 

I would most likely be one of the people annoyed because political correctness annoys the snot out of me and would see the change as a cop out when the holiday releases are already very PC to start with. *shrugs*

 

I mean the reason that we don't have a Spring/Easter event is because it would offend someone. The reason that St Patrick's day has been brought up and shot down is because it offends someone. My question is why must everyone be offended in the first place? Why not look at the holidays that you don't celebrate as an opportunity to learn about someone else's culture? That's why I have ALWAYS been a proponent for including other holidays. Have a Cinco De Mayo dragon. Go ahead with St Patrick's Day and add St. George's Day. In real life I happily attend the annual Greek Fest and the African Heritage Fest even though I'm neither Greek nor African. Learning about other cultures in a festive atmosphere is a fun way to learn.

 

That said, we still come full circle in that if we add more holidays someone is still going to be left out and hence.... you can't please everyone.

 

Of course regardless of what would happen, it really is impossible to make everyone happy. That's just a fact of nature.

Edited January 18, 2013 by Sir Barton

[_Charky]

holidays? I don't see how halloween could be offensive, and valentines doesn't really have a religious affiliation.

 

I'm really indifferent, because I and many others will continue to call it christmas anyway, since that's what we call it IRL, but I do see your point.

[olympe]

Holiday Cheer sounds REALLY icky - but also it's the kind of sentiment you only EVER see on a - CHRISTMAS card.

 

Just saying.

 

Why not just Holiday ? The cheery feel comes from the description, surely (still don't actually want to see a change, but trying to be even-handed here !)

Well, duh. It was a quick edit done by a non-native speaker. Of course, I miss things that are obvious to natives. But maybe you have an idea of how to make it work?

 

(And, yes, I agree that holiday cheer does sound icky there. I just didn't know what else to put there. )

[Vhale]

This thread reminded me of this old joke, so I thought I'd share it. Basically, the difficulties of trying to please everyone at Christmas.

 

Subject: The Office Party FROM: Pat Lewis, Human Resources Director TO: Everyone RE: Christmas Party DATE: December 1

 

I'm happy to inform you that the company Christmas Party will take place on December 23, starting at noon in the banquet room at Luigi's Open Pit Barbecue. No-host bar, but plenty of eggnog! We'll have a small band playing traditional carols...feel free to sing along. And don't Be surprised if our CEO shows up dressed as Santa Claus!

 

FROM: Pat Lewis, Human Resources Director DATE: December 2 RE: Christmas Party

 

In no way was yesterday's memo intended to exclude our Jewish employees. We recognize that Hanukkah is an important holiday which often coincides with Christmas, though unfortunately not this year. However, from now on we're calling it our "Holiday Party." The same policy applies to employees who are celebrating Kwanzaa at this time. Happy now?

 

FROM: Pat Lewis, Human Resources Director DATE: December 3 RE: Holiday Party

 

Regarding the note I received from a member of Alcoholics Anonymous requesting a non-drinking table ... you didn't sign your name. I'm happy to accommodate this request, but if I put a sign on a table that reads "AA Only" you wouldn't be anonymous anymore. How am I supposed to handle this? Somebody?

 

FROM: Pat Lewis, Human Resources Director DATE: December 7 RE: Holiday Party

 

What a diverse company we are! I had no idea that December 2 begins the Muslim holy month of Ramadan, which forbids eating, drinking and sex during daylight hours. There goes the party! Seriously, we can appreciate how a luncheon this time of year does not accommodate our Muslim employees' beliefs. Perhaps Luigi's can hold off on serving your meal until the end of the party - the days are so short this time of year - or else package everything for take-home in little foil swans. Will that work? Meanwhile, I've arranged for members of Overeaters Anonymous to sit farthest from the dessert buffet and pregnant women will get the table closest to the restrooms. Did I miss anything?

 

FROM: Pat Lewis, Human Resources Director DATE: December 8 RE: Holiday Party

 

So December 22 marks the Winter Solstice...what do you expect me to do, a tap-dance on your heads? Fire regulations at Luigi's prohibit the burning of sage by our "earth-based Goddess-worshipping" employees, but we'll try to accommodate your shamanic drumming circle during the band's breaks. Okay???

 

FROM: Pat Lewis, Human Resources Director Date: December 9 RE: Holiday Party

 

People, people, nothing sinister was intended by having our CEO dress up like Santa Claus! Even if the anagram of "Santa" does happen to be "Satan," there is no evil connotation to our own "little man in a red suit." It's a tradition, folks, like sugar shock at Halloween or family feuds over the Thanksgiving turkey or broken hearts on Valentine's Day. Could we lighten up?

 

FROM: Pat Lewis, Human Resources Director DATE: December 10 RE: Holiday Party

 

Vegetarians!?!?!? I've had it with you people!!! We're going to keep this party at Luigi's Open Pit Barbecue whether you like it or not, so you can sit quietly at the table furthest from the "grill of death," as you so quaintly put it, and you'll get your freaking salad bar, including hydroponic tomatoes. But you know, they have feelings too. Tomatoes scream when you slice them. I've heard them scream. I'm hearing them scream right now!

 

FROM: Teri Bishops, Acting Human Resources Director DATE: December 14 RE: Pat Lewis and Holiday Party

 

I'm sure I speak for all of us in wishing Pat Lewis a speedy recovery from her stress-related illness and I'll continue to forward Your cards to her at the sanatorium.

 

In the meantime, management has decided to cancel our Holiday Party and give everyone the afternoon of the 23rd off with full pay.

 

We hope that this change does not offend anyone.

 

And in case anyone missed it. I'd be quite thrilled to see or learn about another cultural event at Christmas if someone happens to submit one and it gets chosen. But otherwise, what Sir Barton said.

[MinervaClay]

holidays? I don't see how halloween could be offensive, and valentines doesn't really have a religious affiliation.

 

I'm really indifferent, because I and many others will continue to call it christmas anyway, since that's what we call it IRL, but I do see your point.

Playing devil's advocate here since I think the holidays are just fine,

 

I grew up in a house where it was considered an evil holiday. I didn't get to trick or treat until I went out on my own, at 19. My now-husband took me. People gawked, but he felt it was an experience I should have at least once. He told them all I never was allowed to, and then I got "aw, poor thing" and gratuitous amounts of candy. It was so bad that in first grade I got in trouble at school for refusing to take part in halloween stuff because that's what I had been brainwashed into, and my mom pulled me out of that school and put me in private christian schools.

[Fuzzbucket]

This thread reminded me of this old joke, so I thought I'd share it. Basically, the difficulties of trying to please everyone at Christmas.

 

 

 

And in case anyone missed it. I'd be quite thrilled to see or learn about another cultural event at Christmas if someone happens to submit one and it gets chosen. But otherwise, what Sir Barton said.

Applauds ! Including the bit about what Sir Barton said. We can all celebrate everything. Not excluding the evil c***m*s.

[LadyLyzar]

I will admit that it is odd having the word "Christmas" in a breed description just because heavy cultural references are supposed to be avoided in descriptions.

 

That being said, I have always viewed holiday releases/events to be rather... non-canon, for lack of a better term. It doesn't make sense for CB eggs to only appear on one day ever and then never be seen again. It also doesn't make sense genetically for a breed to be all one gender unless it reproduces asexually, which DC dragons do not.

 

Hence I am not bothered by the word "Christmas" appearing in a breed description even if the actual holiday may not be celebrated in the world of DC.

 

It's just a fun little event/release that references the secularized/commercialized version of the holiday it falls on. That's it. No one is forcing anyone to celebrate any aspect of a holiday or excluding them in any way. Have fun and pass the pumpkin roll, please!

 

And to lighten the mood, I leave you with

Edited January 18, 2013 by LadyLyzar

[milkaq66]

This thread reminded me of this old joke, so I thought I'd share it. Basically, the difficulties of trying to please everyone at Christmas.

 

 

 

THIS!!

Totally made my day, i was laughing so hard!

But it explains exactly what this thread is all about!

 

[TheGrox]

That being said, I have always viewed holiday releases/events to be rather... non-canon, for lack of a better term.  It doesn't make sense for CB eggs to only appear on one day ever and then never be seen again.  It also doesn't make sense genetically for a breed to be all one gender unless it reproduces asexually, which DC dragons do not.

 

Hence I am not bothered by the word "Christmas" appearing in a breed description even if the actual holiday may not be celebrated in the world of DC.

 

It's just a fun little event/release that references the secularized/commercialized version of the holiday it falls on.  That's it.  No one is forcing anyone to celebrate any aspect of a holiday or excluding them in any way.  Have fun and pass the pumpkin roll, please!

Exactly. This. I couldn't have put it better myself.

Edited January 18, 2013 by TheGrox

[hazeh]

I keep seeing "offended" being thrown about. You're acting like someone is throwing a fit and threatening your precious holiday ritual.

 

NO. THAT IS NOT WHAT IS HAPPENING.

 

No one is going "I'm so offended bah humbug!" The OP kindly pointed out that this was an issue that was important to them- and to other players as well- and it should be addressed with respect and dignity, not "well you're not the majority so you don't matter". Because that is the EXACT sentiment that is being handed out right now. People who just want to feel like they can connect to a special celebration are being belittled about something that they feel is important to them.

 

No, Christmas is NOT an inclusive holiday, religious or not! I don't know how many times I have to point it out, but I will do so in every single one of my posts if I have to. JUST because it is secular does NOT mean other people take part in it or feel comfortable with it. It is NOT necessarily the religious aspect, it is a CULTURAL aspect. There should be no problem whatsoever with coming up with ideas and implementing them that include people from all walks of life. You've had your Christmas for the past so-many years on DC, give other people a chance to feel like they can partake in an event that they celebrate. We're not taking your Christmas away or saying you can't celebrate it on DC.

 

All we want is for people from other cultures to feel represented, respected, and appreciated just as much as people who celebrate Christmas are. If that's seriously so hard to wrap your head around, I don't really know what else to say.

 

And again, as per the whole "well you can't please everyone!" spiel that's going around-

 

Well you better as heck start trying instead of sitting around shrugging your shoulders because it's "too much effort" to make the community feel like a community for all of its participating members.

[Thuban]

its getting extremely difficult to keep the thread on the topic of what it should be.. and away from the "however we are referring to this chaos".

 

 

So far, we have agreed that future references to christmas specifically should be avoided. We are cool with bringing in other cultures ideas or colors as long as they are not specifically blasting "this religion/culture" over the topness. Some people feel the older holiday dragons should be edited to remove the "christmas aspect" from their descriptions. Was there anything i missed here?

 

 

What else is needed to make events and holiday releases what you guys want them to be?

 

 

[siliconrose]

Why not see the creation of a DC-specific holiday as an opportunity to be creative and different? This is a chance to make DC a little more real.

[Thuban]

Why not see the creation of a DC-specific holiday as an opportunity to be creative and different? This is a chance to make DC a little more real.

Thats something I sort of pitched in another thread.. but it may have been missed. Theres a few "event" related threads happening, so its hard to track whats been said where:P

[Dangeruse]

...With our Christmas dragons, it's a three part removal from things: we have dragons loosely based off a secularized version of a religious holiday. Whereas any other holiday dragons would be loosely based off of things without commercialized versions--one step less. Subtle influence is one thing (like Yulebucks), but a menorah dragon or an African pride dragon is going a bit far.

 

I still very much dislike the idea that you must mention every single culture or mention none at all. That's not how things work in the world, nor how they should. Minorities should be protected, but they should not get to boss around the majority. If the vast majority of people celebrate one thing, the solution should not be to spend half of future holiday seasons making dragons in reference to religions or cultures that are not as widely celebrated in the playing audience.

 

As a closing note, again, they have been called Christmas dragons for five years. That's the only place in the whole site where the word appears, and it does so in an entirely non-religous fashion. Does it really bother you so much, or can you live and let live, acknowledge the fact that that's what most of the userbase celebrates, and leave well enough alone? Are you really so upset about that one word that you can't leave it as a nod to the culture this site comes from?

Your view on Christmas is not the same as my view on Christmas is not the same as everyone else's view on Christmas. In the same way that you keep asserting that Channukah and Kwanzaa are too religious/cultural, other people are stating that they see Christmas as too religious/cultural. I think the best way we can look at this problem is to recognize that we all have different points of view, none of which are any more or any less valid than the other simply because one point of view comes from "the majority" versus the other from "the minority".

 

I think anyone who has said that we should wipe out the term Christmas and make it more of a general winter celebration has said so in retaliation to the backlash of "Why do we need to change anything/include more Holidays/religious/cultural observances?" If you say "No. We shouldn't have a Menorah dragon, it's too religious..." OF COURSE people are going to point out that Christmas is a religious holiday (whether we recognize that on DC or not, IT STEMS FROM A RELIGIOUS HOLIDAY--no matter how you, personally, celebrate it). The point is, there has to be some give and take; You can't say "Don't draw from religion/culture" when the event as it stands now draws from religion and culture.

 

As others have said, it would be very easy to create a dragon that represents another religion/culture without outright stating "Here's a dragon to place on the altar, everybody!". If people who celebrate a religion apart from Christmas are expected to look at a Christmas Dragon and not be offended (which is what you keep insisting), then you should be able to look at a dragon that happens to resemble a menorah without being offended as well.

 

And BTW, the very idea that the "minority" shouldn't get to boss around the "majority" implies that it's okay for "the majority" to boss around the "minority" (which is actually what happens in real life ALL THE TIME). The majority isn't always right, no matter how much that sort of decision-making occurs in the real world. Just sayin'.

 

*This is not a personal attack on you, angelicdragonpuppy, you just had a lot of material to draw from in that one post.

**I keep mentioning Channukah and Kwanzaa because I'm completely ignorant about any other religious observations-- I make no excuses about that.

[Alpha Gryph]

Why not see the creation of a DC-specific holiday as an opportunity to be creative and different?  This is a chance to make DC a little more real.

 

I like this idea too. Personally, I'm just fine with the dragons staying as "Christmas" dragons, I don't think people should be focusing too much on the religious aspect in the first place. But if a change would need to be made, going for something original would be neat.

Edited January 18, 2013 by Alpha Gryph

[Pixxelation]

Here's an idea for Xmas (More holiday suggestions to come). It would be posted in the main cave above the other text:

 

As you walk to the caves you usually grab eggs from, you notice a cluster of caravans and tents and decide to stop by. As you get closer, you realize that the Winter Festival, where people of all faiths gather together to celebrate the winter together, has begun! You wander through the tents, awestruck by all the amazing things people have on display. One tent in particular catches your eye, and you decide to check it out.

 

Upon closer inspection, you find it is a stand for (Insert event here). You ask the operator about it, but he says he is still setting up, and asks you to come back on (Insert event date here), when he opens. you feel you are done for now, and continue on your way to the caves,

[eritated]

Here's an idea for Xmas (More holiday suggestions to come). It would be posted in the main cave above the other text:

 

As you walk to the caves you usually grab eggs from, you notice a cluster of caravans and tents and decide to stop by. As you get closer, you realize that the Winter Festival, where people of all faiths gather together to celebrate the winter together, has begun! You wander through the tents, awestruck by all the amazing things people have on display. One tent in particular catches your eye, and you decide to check it out.

 

Upon closer inspection, you find it is a stand for (Insert event here). You ask the operator about it, but he says he is still setting up, and asks you to come back on (Insert event date here), when he opens. you feel you are done for now, and continue on your way to the caves,

LOVE it! A great way to include everyone, and hopefully make everyone happy (:

[Pixxelation]

Glad you like it Hopefully it'll gain more support. *Runs to edit OP*

[Anna Selka]

Here's an idea for Xmas (More holiday suggestions to come). It would be posted in the main cave above the other text:

 

As you walk to the caves you usually grab eggs from, you notice a cluster of caravans and tents and decide to stop by. As you get closer, you realize that the Winter Festival, where people of all faiths gather together to celebrate the winter together, has begun! You wander through the tents, awestruck by all the amazing things people have on display. One tent in particular catches your eye, and you decide to check it out.

 

Upon closer inspection, you find it is a stand for (Insert event here). You ask the operator about it, but he says he is still setting up, and asks you to come back on (Insert event date here), when he opens. you feel you are done for now, and continue on your way to the caves,

I like it too. You go PieMaster !

 

And I am astonished at the amount of people who defend Christian privilege without ever questioning how they would feel if they were the minority. Here is a useful link to recognizing religious privilege : http://everydayfeminism.com/2012/11/30-exa...tian-privilege/

 

If you've never realized this or thought about it, it's ok. If you feel threatened about it, try to sort out your feelings and discover why. No one is criticizing or putting down your religion. It is absolutely not your fault that some groups are privileged and others are not. What you can do though is realize that privilege does exist, and try to be respectful towards everyone and consider their feelings

 

Now I agree that on a site like dragcave it is very hard to please everyone... But having a silver and blue, or snowy dragon for a future Holiday Dragon would be a good idea for instance, and trying to focus the holidays more on the season and time of year would maybe help include everyone (and would be more believable in a setting like DragCave). Changing the wording in the descriptions would be an easy fix too.

 

Lastly, I just wanted to say Thuban you always handle this sort of thing so well. You seem to truly listen to people and that is invaluable.

[Vhale]

I keep seeing "offended" being thrown about. You're acting like someone is throwing a fit and threatening your precious holiday ritual.

 

NO. THAT IS NOT WHAT IS HAPPENING.

 

No one is going "I'm so offended bah humbug!" The OP kindly pointed out that this was an issue that was important to them- and to other players as well- and it should be addressed with respect and dignity, not "well you're not the majority so you don't matter". Because that is the EXACT sentiment that is being handed out right now. People who just want to feel like they can connect to a special celebration are being belittled about something that they feel is important to them.

 

No, Christmas is NOT an inclusive holiday, religious or not! I don't know how many times I have to point it out, but I will do so in every single one of my posts if I have to. JUST because it is secular does NOT mean other people take part in it or feel comfortable with it. It is NOT necessarily the religious aspect, it is a CULTURAL aspect. There should be no problem whatsoever with coming up with ideas and implementing them that include people from all walks of life. You've had your Christmas for the past so-many years on DC, give other people a chance to feel like they can partake in an event that they celebrate. We're not taking your Christmas away or saying you can't celebrate it on DC.

 

All we want is for people from other cultures to feel represented, respected, and appreciated just as much as people who celebrate Christmas are. If that's seriously so hard to wrap your head around, I don't really know what else to say.

 

And again, as per the whole "well you can't please everyone!" spiel that's going around-

 

Well you better as heck start trying instead of sitting around shrugging your shoulders because it's "too much effort" to make the community feel like a community for all of its participating members.

This is melodramatic. If you really want a discussion, you should be willing to listen to both sides without resorting to caps and insults. Like it or not, not pleasing everyone is a very real issue. The food event this year wasn't without it's vegetarian complaints, for example. But apparently being honest about not being crazy about removing Christmas from the old descriptions makes me a bully that wants to belittle people and exclude them from events. And being open to seeing new stuff isn't good enough.

 

Meh.

 

The tent idea is cute and nicely worded.

[Pixxelation]

I'm glad people like the Winter Festival idea :3 I'll try to whip up ones for Halloween and V-Day.

[Zovesta]

I like the tent idea. Seems the closest we're gonna come to not having buckets of b'awww.