Change the Holidays

[whitebaron]

Because I am tired of seeing political correctness bulldoze over things that have been the way they are for years. The PC attitude has gone from genuinely protecting people to going out of its way to tear down innocent traditions and largely-enjoyed celebrations. It doesn't need to creep on to DC, too.

15 pages later I mostly get those vibes as well. And I honestly don't get the point why having christmas in there somewhere is supposed to be worse than a halloween event which is a lot less celebrated worldwide than christmas.

 

If you really want to leave noone out, get rid of ALL real dates and references, not just replace them with different ones which just might be a little more accepted (or they might not. I for one would think a generic winter event silly)

[Zovesta]

(or they might not. I for one would think a generic winter event silly)

How come? How's a generally festive winter holiday any sillier than a Christmas one?

 

Edit: lol i also love how this big stink is mostly about... not wanting to be overly pc? GUYS NO THAT'S NOT

Edited January 20, 2013 by Zovesta

[CNR4806]

I voted no for one sole reason: I did not even remotely relate the DC holidays to anything religious, until this moment that you suddenly decided to say something about it at least.

 

tl;dr: Sorry, it is only your mind actively relating the holidays to anything religious, therefore, you are the one discriminating against yourself.

 

By the way, I am a Christian, and AFAIK my religion does not support celebrating Halloween. Should I say that Halloween should be changed to something more bland too?

 

 

EDIT: Wording toned down. Overreacted indeed.

Edited January 20, 2013 by CNR4806

[hazeh]

Oh, okay, cool. So instead of supporting our fellow members about something that is a CULTURAL issue, we'll just go "Oh it's just your problem" and refuse to help the issue at all.

 

Awesome.

[keijaidyyn]

A game of dragons isn't really the place to be offended about religion. I say this as an agnostic atheist who really wishes that everyone would just stop making a big fuss about religion. It doesn't matter what anyone but yourself thinks. If someone's offended that someone else thinks differently than themselves, then they need to learn a bit about human nature.

[CNR4806]

Oh, okay, cool. So instead of supporting our fellow members about something that is a CULTURAL issue, we'll just go "Oh it's just your problem" and refuse to help the issue at all.

 

Awesome.

Cultural?

 

How about "Rise up, non-Americans! We all have no idea why the heck is TJ using a term that only Americans can relate to!" Overreaction much isn't it?

[hazeh]

A game of dragons isn't really the place to be offended about religion. I say this as an agnostic atheist who really wishes that everyone would just stop making a big fuss about religion. It doesn't matter what anyone but yourself thinks. If someone's offended that someone else thinks differently than themselves, then they need to learn a bit about human nature.

This isn't about being offended. The OP and several of their supporters have clearly and repeatedly said that they (myself included, an atheist who celebrates Chanukah and Christmas) simply wish for a more inclusive event. What is so wrong about that? No one is throwing a fit or making a big fuss except for those who keep insisting that the OP should just get over themselves because they're the minority.

 

What I've seen is a kind hearted attempt to make a festival event that encompasses a wider range of people, and the others who harp on them with venom simply because they don't want change. I'm getting a major "bah humbug" vibe.

 

Cultural?

 

How about "Rise up, non-Americans! We all have no idea why the heck is TJ using a term that only Americans can relate to!" Overreaction much isn't it?

 

Uh, yes, because religious beliefs, holidays, and traditions are all a part of culture?

 

Your example was ONE EVENT. This is a yearly event that has taken place for over 5 years, and someone has brought up an idea that would make that event more inclusive for everyone.

So no, I don't see your point.

Edited January 20, 2013 by Shiny Hazard Sign

[skauble]

And this is why we can't have nice things in this section.

 

Look, if people want to keep it the same way, great, I absolutely support them in saying so. But someone debating that they might like it to be different and someone debating that they want it the same, are ends of the same spectrum. No one is worse than anyone else because they think there might be a good reason to change something - that's the point of this section of the forum.

 

Frankly, as the thread moved on, PieMaster actually made a very good point about the original suggestion, and everyone is certainly 1000% free to disagree with that point, but where does saying it's Bawwwwwwwing or people pointlessly complaining get us? Well, besiddes back to understanding why people hate making suggestions.

 

If you hate the idea, great, then how about an alternative way to address at least one of the things brought up here -

 

There was interest expressed in making dragons that were influenced by traditions other than just Christmas. Clearly, were those to be used, they wouldn't be called Christmas dragons. What do you think would be a good name for them?

[CNR4806]

Your example was ONE EVENT. This is a yearly event that has taken place for over 5 years, and someone has brought up an idea that would make that event more inclusive for everyone.

So no, I don't see your point.

So you think changes should be made to large events "to encompass a wider range of people", yet it is perfectly okay to leave issues of the same kind on a smaller scale as is. Got it.

[hazeh]

So you think changes should be made to large events "to encompass a wider range of people", yet it is perfectly okay to leave issues of the same kind on a smaller scale as is. Got it.

I said nothing of the sort. I said your example was not comparable because it happened one time. This is a reoccurring event that is expected to occur again, and this thread was an idea to help improve future festivities to include people who don't necessarily feel connected to a Christmas celebration, religious affiliation or not. And it is totally not cool to make them feel like they are insignificant simply because you are not personally affected by the issue at hand.

 

If people really did not appreciate the lack of representation of other countries' popular celebrations, I would totally be open to seeing suggestions. For example, what about an event or release that has to do with that Indian festival, the Festival of Color? That'd be pretty rad.

[DarkEternity]

Generic events are quite silly, actually. We already have new releases, isn't that enough? Some people might enjoy the, 'new limited release dragon once every month' but frankly, it's quite unnecessary. Ok, if you think that changing the name of the festival is going to work, go ahead.

 

But remember, when people start asking for a 'Christmas themed festival' (It will happen, because Christmas is Christmas. It has cultural connotations even me, a complete Atheist, can appreciate) and when we are flooded with confusing questions about 'when is this festival going to be on' and 'when is breeding going to start' and is this 'limited' or is this not, and thus the panic starts because we are not gluing _exactly_ to the schedule followed last year, we are going to have plenty of tears, unhappiness and general disillusionment with the season.

 

Just because we rename the festival, it doesn't mean people are going to forget that Christmas is a holiday. I think that renaming it is just plain unnecessary and even if it happened, you can bet that the large majority of newer players will be asking for a 'Christmas Holiday' in EXACTLY the same way people recently asked for an Easter limited edition dragon.

 

If you guys were suggesting a new limited release altogether, I would not be opposed to it. But as it stands, this is a website where we collect pixel dragons, not a site where an indepth discussion into the Political Correctness of everything is absolutely necessary. Changing the names will only create CONFUSION in the majority of players who play this game, who probably have never even considered the fact that calling Christmas Christmas could be offensive to forum users.

 

It's just so unnecessary.

Edited January 20, 2013 by DarkEternity

[Zovesta]

Changing the names will only create CONFUSION in the majority of players who play this game, who probably have never even considered the fact that calling Christmas Christmas could be offensive to forum users.

see this is where i just don't get it??

 

It's just saying that "no we can't change things because some players will be confused and THEY'LL NEVER EVEN KNOW IT'S OFFENSIVE so why bother changing it". Except some people want it changed already?? Lol. I'd rather take some brief confusion over something that makes sense and is still silly and fun (and, ok, why not, not offensive) in the long run.

 

edit: misread darketernity's point as being about new players but my point really does still stand

Edited January 20, 2013 by Zovesta

[hazeh]

Generic events are quite silly, actually. We already have new releases, isn't that enough? Some people might enjoy the, 'new limited release dragon once every month' but frankly, it's quite unnecessary. Ok, if you think that changing the name of the festival is going to work, go ahead.

 

But remember, when people start asking for a 'Christmas themed festival' (It will happen, because Christmas is Christmas. It has cultural connotations even me, a complete Atheist, can appreciate) and when we are flooded with confusing questions about 'when is this festival going to be on' and 'when is breeding going to start' and is this 'limited' or is this not, and thus the panic starts because we are not gluing _exactly_ to the schedule followed last year, we are going to have plenty of tears, unhappiness and general disillusionment with the season.

 

Just because we rename the festival, it doesn't mean people are going to forget that Christmas is a holiday. I think that renaming it is just plain unnecessary and even if it happened, you can bet that the large majority of newer players will be asking for a 'Christmas Holiday' in EXACTLY the same way people recently asked for an Easter limited edition dragon.

 

If you guys were suggesting a new limited release altogether, I would not be opposed to it. But as it stands, this is a website where we collect pixel dragons, not a site where an indepth discussion into the Political Correctness of everything is absolutely necessary. Changing the names will only create CONFUSION in the majority of players who play this game, who probably have never even considered the fact that calling Christmas Christmas could be offensive to forum users.

 

It's just so unnecessary.

I think the whole "a bunch of new holiday dragons released at once for every holiday" was already deemed unnecessary. There are plenty of other ideas that have been brought up that are simple and to the point and would hardly bring up any confusion.

 

The event themselves are already called a Holiday event, not a Christmas event. Okay, so a step in the right direction. But with all the Christmas Dragons around, why not dragons from other holidays? Or, if that gets too over the top, why not just change the name "Christmas" in the descriptions to something that umbrellas all people who celebrate during that season? That is NOT going to cause confusion at all.

 

We've had "Christmas themed" festivals for the past 5 years. And it's not like we're asking for Christmas to be eradicated! Themes from other Holidays are just as acceptable as Christmas. And since TJ always puts up a notice in advance for the holiday events, I really don't see all this blundering confusion going on. He always specifies the dates, and lately I recall seeing a notice on the actual site itself that links to the announcement, for people who don't necessarily frequent the boards.

 

 

 

Okay then. What about all the people who play DC who are like PieMaster and the others who feel left out from a Christmas event? How many just don't come on DC during Christmas because they feel like it's something they can't celebrate, for whatever reason? No one knows that.

The best way to go about this is to make it fun for EVERYONE. And in order to do that, we have to make changes.

[Zovesta]

I think the whole "a bunch of new holiday dragons released at once for every holiday" was already deemed unnecessary. There are plenty of other ideas that have been brought up that are simple and to the point and would hardly bring up any confusion.

 

The event themselves are already called a Holiday event, not a Christmas event. Okay, so a step in the right direction. But with all the Christmas Dragons around, why not dragons from other holidays? Or, if that gets too over the top, why not just change the name "Christmas" in the descriptions to something that umbrellas all people who celebrate during that season? That is NOT going to cause confusion at all.

 

We've had "Christmas themed" festivals for the past 5 years. And it's not like we're asking for Christmas to be eradicated! Themes from other Holidays are just as acceptable as Christmas. And since TJ always puts up a notice in advance for the holiday events, I really don't see all this blundering confusion going on. He always specifies the dates, and lately I recall seeing a notice on the actual site itself that links to the announcement, for people who don't necessarily frequent the boards.

 

 

 

Okay then. What about all the people who play DC who are like PieMaster and the others who feel left out from a Christmas event? How many just don't come on DC during Christmas because they feel like it's something they can't celebrate, for whatever reason? No one knows that.

The best way to go about this is to make it fun for EVERYONE. And in order to do that, we have to make changes.

^^ This exactly forever. ^^

 

The only real argument I've seen made against this is "but I don't WANT to be PC!"

 

I just feel like this thread can't go anywhere until we get past that.

[Obscure_Trash]

Excuse me if I missed anything, but I don't believe anyone said Christmas was offensive? Just that it was exclusive. o.o

 

I'm really confused the line of thought that calling the dragons something besides Christmas dragons excludes people who celebrate Christmas so the name can't change. That's what we're saying - why not a more inclusive name? One that includes people who celebrate Christmas and one that also includes people who don't? o.o

 

Tbh, I find it confusing that the forum calls it a winter event and winter holiday, but then the dragons are called Christmas dragons. Why bother not calling it Christmas on the forum or why not change the cave to match the forum?

[kiramaru7]

After slogging through 90% of this topic, before losing interest in it, all I have to say is I fail to see how anyone is offended or feels left out because they're called "Christmas Dragons." I'm Jewish & I don't feel excluded or annoyed or offended or anything negative by that generic name for them. I do the same thing I do for all the holidays; I stay up until Midnight & click on eggies until I get my fill, then go to bed. And I also want to thank TJ for moving the Halloween event to November, since I was affected by Hurricane Sandy & was without power for 2 weeks, but I was able to get my fill at the very last minute, because I was staying with family at that time that had power & compy I could use. Yes, I would flailed cuz it wasn't fair I had no power, but not at TJ, cuz why should he inconvenience others for my sake? Thankfully, I & others in my position were accommodated. Am I flailing about the name of a dragon? No, cuz there's nothing offensive about Christmas, what is offensive is the sense of entitlement that I get from this thread. "My holiday/culture/religion isn't part of this game, so I WANT it to be." Everyone seems to be forgetting it's TJ's game so he's free to call things whatever he wants. He created it so whatever he says goes until the day he decides to give it up & someone else takes over. So I guess what I'm saying is just leave things the way they are.

[hazeh]

Excuse me if I missed anything, but I don't believe anyone said Christmas was offensive? Just that it was exclusive. o.o

 

I'm really confused the line of thought that calling the dragons something besides Christmas dragons excludes people who celebrate Christmas so the name can't change. That's what we're saying - why not a more inclusive name? One that includes people who celebrate Christmas and one that also includes people who don't? o.o

 

Tbh, I find it confusing that the forum calls it a winter event and winter holiday, but then the dragons are called Christmas dragons. Why bother not calling it Christmas on the forum or why not change the cave to match the forum?

Ah, Sock, beautifully said! Thank you.

 

Edit:

 

Sense of entitlement?

Okay. So members are not entitled to feel welcomed and respected in a place they enjoy?

 

You know, I'm starting to see why some people have left DC because of its community. I was blind to it before, but now I'm really starting to understand.

/sadly shakes head

Edited January 20, 2013 by Shiny Hazard Sign

[DarkEternity]

Commonly asked questions:

1. Can I breed my Winter Solstice dragons with my Christmas dragons and produce only Winter Solstice dragons or will I end up with both?

2. Oh no, I had Christmas dragons but since the breeding period is for Winter Solstice dragons, does this mean Christmas dragons are unobtainable/been discontinued?

3. How come the Winter festival begins on Christmas day, wouldn't it be more accurate to call it the Christmas festival? (Having never heard of any sort of change)

4. How come we have a Winter festival and not a Christmas dragon, I really want a Christmas dragon since we already have a Valentines dragon and a Halloweens dragon.

5. What is a WS dragon (when the forum inevitably becomes tired of typing out Winter Solstice and abbreviates it)? (Previously, Xmas was self explanatory)

6. OMG how come the Winter Solstice breeding period ended so earrllyy? Isn't it meant to be all year since Winter implies 'seasonal breeding'?

7. How come Winter Solstice/Winter Festival dragons don't behave like Seasonal dragons? How come Seasonal dragons aren't limited but Winter Solstice dragons are?

8. Does the winter festival begin on a different date every year or what? (As opposed to the Christmas, Halloweens and Valentines breeding which have SELF EXPLANATORY breeding dates. And then the tears when people happen to miss the Festival because they thought it would be the same as Xmas or whatever.)

9. My dragon died, how come I can't pick up a new one and it comes up with the overburdened message?

10. Where can I find this new dragon, how come it's in ALL biomes and not just in the Alpine one?

11. Where can I find the festival on the map? Does it automatically appear?

 

^^ And I imagine there are plenty more where that came from. These are probably going to be the most frequently asked, though.

Edited January 20, 2013 by DarkEternity

[hazeh]

Commonly asked questions:

1. Can I breed my Winter Solstice dragons with my Christmas dragons and produce only Winter Solstice dragons or will I end up with both?

2. Oh no, I had Christmas dragons but since the breeding period is for Winter Solstice dragons, does this mean Christmas dragons are unobtainable/been discontinued?

3. How come the Winter festival begins on Christmas day, wouldn't it be more accurate to call it the Christmas festival? (Having never heard of any sort of change)

4. How come we have a Winter festival and not a Christmas dragon, I really want a Christmas dragon since we already have a Valentines dragon and a Halloweens dragon.

5. What is a WS dragon (when the forum inevitably becomes tired of typing out Winter Solstice and abbreviates it)? (Previously, Xmas was self explanatory)

6. OMG how come the Winter Solstice breeding period ended so earrllyy? Isn't it meant to be all year since Winter implies 'seasonal breeding'?

7. How come Winter Solstice/Winter Festival dragons don't behave like Seasonal dragons? How come Seasonal dragons aren't limited but Winter Solstice dragons are?

8. Does the winter festival begin on a different date every year or what? (As opposed to the Christmas, Halloweens and Valentines breeding which have SELF EXPLANATORY breeding dates. And then the tears when people happen to miss the Festival because they thought it would be the same as Xmas or whatever.)

9. My dragon died, how come I can't pick up a new one and it comes up with the overburdened message?

10. Where can I find this new dragon, how come it's in ALL biomes and not just in the Alpine one?

11. Where can I find the festival on the map? Does it automatically appear?

 

^^ And I imagine there are plenty more where that came from.

For a great majority of those questions, I feel like the answers already exist. These questions are already commonly asked regardless, so I don't see how this is going to change anything.

 

1. Same question of any different Christmas dragons being bred together.

2. Why would the Christmas dragon's breeding period be changed? That doesn't make any sense.

3. Since the event has already been called Holiday Event and not Christmas Event, I don't see this happening.

4. We already have Christmas dragons, so, this seems like a pointless thing to ask.

5. Happens with every abbreviated anything at all, so not going to change whether it remains a Christmas dragon or not.

6. Explaining Winter Solstice to someone is not going to ruin the entire holiday. It's a chance to learn, so I don't see this as a bad thing either.

7. See above.

8. Again, TJ always puts the dates on his announcements regardless if it's repetitive or not. The dates can also be displayed on the top of the on-site page for those that don't visit the forums.

9- 10: Questions that can be asked about any holiday release.

11. Harmless question that can be answered accordingly.

 

 

Seriously, if people have questions, they're bound to ask them regardless if the information is available or not. I don't see how this is going to create a problem at all.

[skauble]

Commonly asked questions:

1. Can I breed my Winter Solstice dragons with my Christmas dragons and produce only Winter Solstice dragons or will I end up with both?

2. Oh no, I had Christmas dragons but since the breeding period is for Winter Solstice dragons, does this mean Christmas dragons are unobtainable/been discontinued?

3. How come the Winter festival begins on Christmas day, wouldn't it be more accurate to call it the Christmas festival? (Having never heard of any sort of change)

4. How come we have a Winter festival and not a Christmas dragon, I really want a Christmas dragon since we already have a Valentines dragon and a Halloweens dragon.

5. What is a WS dragon (when the forum inevitably becomes tired of typing out Winter Solstice and abbreviates it)? (Previously, Xmas was self explanatory)

6. OMG how come the Winter Solstice breeding period ended so earrllyy? Isn't it meant to be all year since Winter implies 'seasonal breeding'?

7. How come Winter Solstice/Winter Festival dragons don't behave like Seasonal dragons? How come Seasonal dragons aren't limited but Winter Solstice dragons are?

8. Does the winter festival begin on a different date every year or what? (As opposed to the Christmas, Halloweens and Valentines breeding which have SELF EXPLANATORY breeding dates. And then the tears when people happen to miss the Festival because they thought it would be the same as Xmas or whatever.)

9. My dragon died, how come I can't pick up a new one and it comes up with the overburdened message?

10. Where can I find this new dragon, how come it's in ALL biomes and not just in the Alpine one?

11. Where can I find the festival on the map? Does it automatically appear?

 

^^ And I imagine there are plenty more where that came from.

Yeah, that would get confusing. If only there was a simpler way to solve this...like maybe putting all of the various winter holiday inspired dragons under one umbrella and then always release them at the same time. Like we do now, except maybe that umbrella could be called "Holiday dragons".

 

But seriously, I agree that if we did try to pull in all the holidays it would get overwhelming. That's why I think that keeping everything the same, except that one word change that makes it easier for other winter celebrations be easily woven into the events. Not because we overhaul the event, but simply by expanding the concepts we let in.

 

For instance, we were talking about a Hanukkah inspired dragon that was shades of white, blue, and silver. That would be lovely and wouldn't need to change anything at all about our holiday events. But I do agree with PM that it would be a little weird to call it a "Christmas" dragon.

[Obscure_Trash]

A few of those are things we basically already get in the holiday seasons. I don't believe I've ever seen anyone really confused (but certainly not a flood of people) over Festival of Eggs not being called Easter. There's actually not a whole lot of confusion about seasonals in Help - and those sprites that are dropped/bred rotate throughout the year. If we really wanted to eliminate holiday confusion, we'd eliminate holidays.

 

No matter what happens, Help will always see a hoard of confused new folks who have no idea what's going on during holidays or want to know all the little specifics since it's an exciting new thing to them. And I have faith that most users who have been around a while really won't get that tripped up over changing Christmas to Solstice or whatnot. Paper egg hatchling changed, zombies in sort changed, and the chicken description changed all without notice. We got a handful of questions about each, sure, but once some of the people who hung around in Help saw the answers, they happily and quickly helped spread the word. It's not like users were running around thinking DC was ending. They noticed a change, asked about it, and went on with the game.

Edited January 20, 2013 by SockPuppet Strangler

[DarkEternity]

The simplest way would probably be to simply state that the season Christmas was now called INSERT NAME HERE and Christmas dragons are now called INSERT NAME HERE, and for this notice to be displayed at the top of everyone's scrolls for an entire year. It sounds overboard, but it would save many questions while achieving the desired change.

 

(Do you think that a RP explanation would be necessary?)

Edited January 20, 2013 by DarkEternity

[Zovesta]

But see, DarkEternity, that's relying on the idea that we're going to be using both Winter Solstice and Christmas dragons...

 

My idea was that we just change the name and draw influences from other winter holidays in the future. More varied colour schemes and designs and everything. And I still haven't seen a valid argument against this idea, mind.

 

And not to mention dude have you seen how many questions people have during the holidays this change won't really add or subtract to it too much

 

Edit: Yeah I assumed that'd be the general way of going about it =o

Edited January 20, 2013 by Zovesta

[DarkEternity]

But see, DarkEternity, that's relying on the idea that we're going to be using both Winter Solstice and Christmas dragons...

 

My idea was that we just change the name and draw influences from other winter holidays in the future. More varied colour schemes and designs and everything. And I still haven't seen a valid argument against this idea, mind.

 

And not to mention dude have you seen how many questions people have during the holidays this change won't really add or subtract to it too much

Hence why I used INSERT NAME HERE in the final example.

[Zovesta]

^ Lol yeah I just edited my post, you posted too quickly. =P