Change the Holidays

[shikaru]

I totally agree with the idea of seeing more themes in the holiday dragons outside of just christmas ones, it would be really cool to see call outs to other winter holidays. Just because I don't celebrate them doesn't mean I can't enjoy their concepts.

 

It would also be kind of cool to see some Dia de los Muertos dragons during the halloween release. Pulling from other cultures could lend us some interesting themes.

Edited January 17, 2013 by shikaru

[Imzadi]

Whatever you call it, the 'Winter Holiday' is of coming together, and if the name stops people feeling included, then scrap the name, call it the Winter Dragon Festival or something, and then everyone can be happy. It's a time of happiness, so if people aren't feeling happy, surely a small change that, looking at TJ's post, has already been somewhat put into effect, to make people feel more included.

 

But everyone would not be happy. Some people would be very unhappy.

 

I am curious about something. I saw a menorah dragon mentioned at one time. My Jewish friends who are observant see the menorah specifically in a religious sense...therefore we cannot have that without offending some non Jewish people. You would have to call it a candle dragon or something. Personally I would not care if there was a menorah dragon, and a Diwali dragon, and a dragon for Ramadan and Kwanzaa, etc etc. Just more pretty pixels for me to collect. I don't feel insulted or threatened by others' beliefs.

[Pixxelation]

What happened when I was at school O.o?

 

I'd like to start by saying that I am insulted by certain posts in this thread. I did not once say that these holidays offend me! All I said was that I can only have so much fun, because I will feel a bit excluded no matter if people think Christmas is kind of secular.

 

Like I have said before, and people continue to ignore, having Xmas themes is FINE. What bothers me is directly stating on site that they are Xmas dragons. It would be easy to change them to spirits if the holidays/winter in the description.

 

That part in the OP about their colors was only to prove a point that they are directly stated as Christmas dragons.

 

Please calm down people, or I will request for the thread to be wiped.

[PointOfOrigin]

Ok, I'm going to try really really hard not to draw out a religious debate, but i may fail.

 

I'm not religious. I celebrate the commercial holidays. We go through the /motions/ of christmas because the family celebrates it and would be offended if we didnt bother showing up. We do haloween cause its pretty much the only acceptable time f the year you can cosplay anywhere you want without funny looks. Easter.. for us is a short, mildly uncomfortable visit to the very hard core Roman Catholic part of our family.. followed by candy and egg hunts. V-day.. we dont even bother with.

 

 

Despite the fact that I dont celebrate any of these properly, I still look forward to the events and releases.This years holiday event.. I wanted to go as far away from religion as possible. Most cultures, families.. religions have more family meals together. Winter is a guarenteed time where hanging out with the family. That was the main reason we went with the food event. Most people enjoy food.. either making it OR eating it. The option was provided for people to sneak in their favorite holiday treats, religious or not. Overallpeople seemed to enjoy the concept of food based event.. and there was no added drama of "my religion was left out" or "ewwww christan based meals". I tried very very hard to make sure that didnt happen.

 

Personally, I would be THRILLED to see the winter holidays worked outin a way that all sorts of religions are covered. Even my "fake pagan" one. I would love to see themes from other religions used for christmas dragon colors. The idea of a blue/silver white flamethrowing dragon.. actually grabs my attention. Im rather tired of red/green/white/gold themes. Bring on the kwanzza colored dragons.. or the hannuka colors. I would love to see more "non american" events happen too. Why? because they are fun to put together when we have enough people to do it AND because overall, the majority of our users enjoy events, whether they are based during religious periods or not.

 

I would love to see a "Happy everything, leave me alone until next year" dragon released. Pumpkins, sickly girly lovey dovey, scary mean faced dragons draped in tinsel. I can not fault anyone for what they do and do not celebrate. What you guys do is your own business, what you believe is your own business. The staff does work very very hard to NOT focus on the religious side of these holidays. Even tiny little details that normally dont stand out.. if we notice them.. arguements happen. We try to focus more on the idea of what the season is more than what the holiday itself is.

 

Do I agree with removing the holiday releases? No. Do i think perhaps some of our themes for said dragons should be changed? Sure. I am always happy that I can only have two of those holidays because more often than not.. they are too "that holiday" for my tastes. Do i value the work put into those dragons any less? absolutely not. The people who take the iniative to actually attempt to submit art for these holidays have my absolute respect, whether they arepicked to be used or not.

Can I hug you? Cause this is exactly what I think.

 

And a big yes to drawing from other cultures. I know that most spriters and mods are from America and I know that you guys can't be aware of all awesome traditions involved with holidays. And because of that, I think we should set up a holiday suggestion thread. Giving the regular users place where they can suggest ideas for artists to pick from, would probably introduce a lot more variety imo.

 

It doesn't have to be anything complicated; a thread with first posts reserved for a parts of the world. Users could suggest a tradition relevant to a holiday with a basic explanation and a couple of links for more in depth research. Artists could pick something they like and use it. That way an element of surprise would still be there (since we as users wouldn't know what theme was picked) and you guys would have a much easier job with event creation.

Edited January 17, 2013 by PointOfOrigin

[Wookieinmashoo]

I think they should all stay as is. Both Christmas and Halloween date back to pagan beliefs and Valentine's to the Romans. They all stem from one belief or another so there's no point in changing some just so it's not Christian related. They're going to be related to old beliefs and religions unless DC decides to make up its own Holiday names.

[Herk]

I honestly don't get the whole 'I'm offended by this' argument. Where I live no one celebrates Halloween, Valentine's day is - at best - viewed upon as a conspiracy by flower shop owners and IF people look upon Christmas as a religious holiday they tell their children about the "Christkind" instead of Santa or Father Christmas, so I'm obviously not the core demographic here...

 

That said, while I personally don't mind Christmas dragons (and will probably use that term even if the official name will change - stuck in my comfy traditions here) I would love to have Hanukkah dragons or Kwanza dragons or any excuse for more special pixels.

 

Maybe it would be good to have a poll on how many users would prefer a change, how many would prefer things to stay the same and how many don't mind.

I guess that would give you a better impression, than a discussion that gets very verbal responses from the same/a couple of people.

Because I think that's what it comes down to, doesn't it, if there are enough people feeling your way to warrant a change.

 

Edit: The first sentence was not meant to intend that PieMaster feels that way - it's just the impression I always get when I see this kind of discussions going on.

 

I personally think it's sad that you feel excluded and I'm pretty sure none of the spriters/describers ever intended it that way, it's just that we all draw from our own cultures first - without thinking much about it.

Edited January 17, 2013 by herk

[Cinnamin Draconna]

One of the problems I'm having is that MOST holidays either started as or became religious holidays. I am VERY ANTI-religious.. religious anything offends me, because of where I live.. I'm exceptionally tired of the door-to-door religious fanatics constantly badgering me on a daily or weekly basis. Doesn't matter which religion either, because about the only ones that don't bang on my door are the muslims.

 

That said, I DO want a change. I would much prefer seasonal holidays, which were celebrated long, long before organized religion. They were spiritual yes, but they were recognized by everyone regardless of location, language or culture. If you told someone you were going to have a harvest festival, everyone knew what you meant and could celebrate with you. There may have been small differences from one location/culture to another, but everyone knew what was being celebrated.. the end of the growing season and giving thanks for the harvest.

 

Winter, Spring, Summer and Autumn festivals have been celebrated since pre-history. I see no reason why DC can't do the same.

Edited January 17, 2013 by Cinnamin Draconna

[bluebell_rose]

It doesn't have to be anything complicated; a thread with first posts reserved for a parts of the world. Users could suggest a tradition relevant to a holiday with a basic explanation and a couple of links for more in depth research. Artists could pick something they like and use it. That way an element of surprise would still be there (since we as users wouldn't know what theme was picked) and you guys would have a much easier job with event creation.

Like that's ever gonna happen, prime example chinese new year event last year. Didn't we used to have a oriental dragon that was specifically suggested by members for chinese new years? I haven't seen the dragon at all and during the chinese new year release, what was released was far form the usual chinese new year traditional colours, namely red, gold and silver. Well the gold wyvern was gold so it satisfied that part, but the blue dragon on the other hand didn't quite fit the traditional theme. And it was western dragons that was chosen not eastern style dragons! To me the sweetlings shall always be the hybrid holiday dragon as it's both western and eastern at the same time, somehow celebrating both chinese new years and valentines day as that year it was both v-day and chinese new years.

 

If you're going to add more holidays to the christmas event, then don't forget about the other holidays that have been conveniently forgotten. Or have had the release treated differently than the xmas release.

Edited January 17, 2013 by bluebell_rose

[Pixxelation]

Honestly, I'm fine with the events. It's the dragons specifically saying, "Hi, I'm Christmasy, rawr," that bugs me.

 

I'm going to add a poll.

[PointOfOrigin]

Like that's ever gonna happen, prime example chinese new year event last year.  Didn't we used to have a oriental dragon that was specifically suggested by members for chinese new years? I haven't seen the dragon at all and during the chinese new year release, what was released was far form the usual chinese new year traditional colours, namely red, gold and silver. Well the gold wyvern was gold so it satisfied that part, but the blue dragon on the other hand didn't quite fit the traditional theme. And it was western dragons that was chosen not eastern style dragons! To me the sweetlings shall always be the hybrid holiday dragon as it's both western and eastern at the same time, somehow celebrating both chinese new years and valentines day as that year it was both v-day and chinese new years.

 

If you're going to add more holidays to the christmas event, then don't forget about the other holidays that have been conveniently forgotten. Or have had the release treated differently than the xmas release.

Well, that doesn't have anything to do with artists. TJ is the one who chooses the date of release and dragons released. Artist can only hope that one day their dragon will be the one.

 

As far as events go, it seems to me that most in site artists have an equal say in what's used for the event and that they brainstorm ideas together. But that's just what I gathered from some of their remarks, so I could be completely wrong on that front. (and if some of them could put a little import I would be grateful).

Edited January 17, 2013 by PointOfOrigin

[gistofeverything]

When you're invited to a party, you either: accept, attend, and enjoy yourself, or decline. Your choice. The choice here is the same. I always choose to attend and enjoy myself. Parties and holidays are excuses to have fun. It's unnecessary to read more into it than that, unless you choose to.

Yet people are being forced to attend.The site goes into uber event mode, and for several days, they cannot play as they normally would.

[RainDear]

Yet people are being forced to attend.The site goes into uber event mode, and for several days, they cannot play as they normally would.

No one is forced to attend. You can always choose to ignore DC for a few days. You have a choice. Choosing to be offended or angered, is also a choice.

[Dangeruse]

Just skimmed through the topic, so forgive me if this has been suggested;

 

I did recently have the thought that a lot--if not all--of the Holiday dragons seemed a bit skewed toward the christian holiday schema (I think the idea is implied, if not explicitly stated). As an Agnostic, I literally do not care about this for my own sake; however, I don't think there's any arguing that Christmas is a Christian holiday and there are people in the world (who play this game, even) who don't celebrate Christmas or practice Christianity. Which is not to say that anyone should be willing to start a riot over their religious non-representation in a game about collecting pixels, but I think we have to be understanding about how awfully unfair it seems to *not* be willing to make some changes in order to be more inclusive.

 

That said, I think that perhaps, rather than change what's already in place (since, we've discovered, certain people feel it might disrupt rather than help the situation), we should probably just make an effort to introduce more dragons, events, and concepts that are more or less pantheistic (or nontheistic), but generally more all-inclusive. Alternatively, we could introduce dragons, events, etc. that celebrate and represent (without explicitly saying so) other single belief systems and cultures-- Like the menorah dragon someone mentioned, or the diwali dragon.

 

I guess what I'm saying is that if there is a lack of non-Christmas holiday dragons, let's make some non-Christmas holiday dragons.

 

More, not less. *ahem* Although, yeah, maybe remove "spirit of Christmas" from the description of the existing ones? I dunno...I'm ambivalent about that.

 

[Aaricia_Rose]

Yet people are being forced to attend.The site goes into uber event mode, and for several days, they cannot play as they normally would.

 

You are not forced to attend You can still breed other dragons and you can choose not to get the event dragons. No one is forcing you to get them if you don't want to.

 

I am curious about something. I saw a menorah dragon mentioned at one time. My Jewish friends who are observant see the menorah specifically in a religious sense...therefore we cannot have that without offending some non Jewish people. You would have to call it a candle dragon or something. Personally I would not care if there was a menorah dragon, and a Diwali dragon, and a dragon for Ramadan and Kwanzaa, etc etc. Just more pretty pixels for me to collect. I don't feel insulted or threatened by others' beliefs.

 

Like ainisarie said, I wouldn't mind if TJ released dragons from other religions. Why would you be offended by dragons that represent positive feelings from celebrations like Chrismas or the end of the Ramadan or Chinese Newyear

Edited January 17, 2013 by Aaricia_Rose

[StormWizard212]

As long as the holidays themselves and the events that surround them weren't changed too dramatically, I wouldn't mind there being a different focus (a more medieval one) for them. I think that could actually be really interesting, actually, as it could provide more realistic roleplay situations.

 

I don't think that the religious aspects of Christmas are really an issue, though. I'm not religious myself and I have no problem participating in them, and as some people have said, no one is forced to. If there are people who find it offensive because they have different religious views, then they don't have to participate if they feel uncomfortable. And TJ has even pointed out himself how he made an effort to talk about the holiday season, holiday raffle, etc. so that DC's personal stance was less religious and more open ended.

 

So the only reason that I'd really want to see a change implemented would really be for the sake of congruity. DC is a medieval setting so I'd like to see more of a medieval twist on the traditional holidays we celebrate here. But not in a major way, just a reference here and there, maybe. I'm not sure, really, but I do think it's a nice idea.

[bluebell_rose]

Well, that doesn't have anything to do with artists. TJ is the one who chooses the date of release and dragons released. Artist can only hope that one day their dragon will be the one.

 

As far as events go, it seems to me that most in site artists have an equal say in what's used for the event and that they brainstorm ideas together. But that's just what I gathered from some of their remarks, so I could be completely wrong on that front. (and if some of them could put a little import I would be grateful).

Still doesn't change things. The xmas event is all christmasy and the chinese release dragons had nothing to do with chinese new years save for the gold wyvern. Is it too much to ask the same treatment that was given to the chinese new year release be extended to the christmas release too?

 

I agree with deleting the christmas reference for the xmas dragons and changing it to just winter holiday. If you disagree with that then, give the chinese new year release the same treatment and actually release some dragons that actually have something to do with chinese new years.

[James]

I believe this has been mentioned before; I can't help, but voice my opinion. I am an atheist, conservative, and mostly politically incorrect. Christmas is no longer a religious holiday, unless you want it to be; in the modern world, Christmas is the season to raise prices on just about everything, in order for parents to waste 100-500 dollars on each of their children's presents. Sure, we still battle capitalism with the 'Holiday Spirit' and such, which I still like and approve, but Christmas has still gone down the drain, the REAL Christmas died 10-20 years ago, what is left is nought but an empty shell of its former self. Finally, the United States is a Christian nation (yes, I know all about the separation of the Church and State), a nation under GOD, not Allah, the Jewish God, or the Hindu Gods, just look at the inaugurations of our Presidents, and our one dollar bill. Last time I checked, TJ lives in Florida (or at least DC Cave servers are located there), which is part of the Christian nation of the United States. Remember, I am an atheist, yet, the reason why my post looks Christian is because I am very sceptic of the government, media, and all the other BS that this nation (US) has.

 

I have my flame suit on; flame away!

[Vhale]

I find the whole, remove Christmas thing to be silly, personally. But I wouldn't be offended by it if it was changed. I'd probably just roll my eyes. Sadly, my church purged all Christmas songs that had "become secular" so it's a bit of a double whammy. There's churches that refuse to engage in Christmas because it's too popular and then no one wants to hear Silent Night because it's religious. I feel like it's just become trendy to change it because it got so big.

But, I'd certainly love to see a Kwanza or whatever themed dragon if that is what got picked that year.

 

I was also force to celebrate Christmas by eatting far too much pie. Forced I say!

/sighs at waistband

[Obscure_Trash]

And a big yes to drawing from other cultures. I know that most spriters and mods are from America and I know that you guys can't be aware of all awesome traditions involved with holidays. And because of that, I think we should set up a holiday suggestion thread. Giving the regular users place where they can suggest ideas for artists to pick from, would probably introduce a lot more variety imo.

(I just want to make sure it's clear that any artist, even if they aren't in cave, can submit a holiday dragon. It just has to be done in secret and PM'd to TJ.)

 

About the Chinese dragon - it was a non-original dragon - it was an exact sprite of the typical red and gold Chinese dragon, so we could not use it. I don't see why we couldn't draw inspiration from a variety of holidays. o3o

[aangs-sister]

Like that's ever gonna happen, prime example chinese new year event last year.  Didn't we used to have a oriental dragon that was specifically suggested by members for chinese new years? I haven't seen the dragon at all and during the chinese new year release, what was released was far form the usual chinese new year traditional colours, namely red, gold and silver. Well the gold wyvern was gold so it satisfied that part, but the blue dragon on the other hand didn't quite fit the traditional theme. And it was western dragons that was chosen not eastern style dragons!

 

Yes, there was a oriental dragon that was specifically for Chinese new year, but it was pulled long before the release due to it having a Chinese kanji on the egg (which made it way to much of a culture/our world reference).

Here is the adult: posted HERE (not mine!)

 

The dragons picked were TJ's picks and I don't think TJ knew about the Chinese blue colour association. That being said, I do agree that the release should have had a eastern breed and that the breeds probably weren't the best choices for that release. (I'm not saying I dislike either breed, I just think they should have been saved for a different release.)

 

... I agree with deleting the christmas reference for the xmas dragons and changing it to just winter holiday. If you disagree with that then, give the chinese new year release the same treatment and actually release some dragons that actually have something to do with chinese new years.

 

I fully agree. The different holidays deserve equal respect. If the user-base truly believed it was best to move Christmas to the solstice and make it a 'winter holiday', I won't object. I would also like to apologize if the Wrapping-Wings ever offended anyone. I just wanted to make a pretty dragon for people to enjoy.

 

That said, I would rather have other holidays included in the fun then have Xmas removed. We have a tradition going that is fun for many, many people and I would hate to loose that. I think having a bunch of holidays included would be great. Instead of taking away, let's add to make things better!

 

[earthgirl]

(I just want to make sure it's clear that any artist, even if they aren't in cave, can submit a holiday dragon. It just has to be done in secret and PM'd to TJ.)

 

About the Chinese dragon - it was a non-original dragon - it was an exact sprite of the typical red and gold Chinese dragon, so we could not use it. I don't see why we couldn't draw inspiration from a variety of holidays. o3o

Yup. Aangs-sister and Fiona weren't in-cave before they had their Holiday releases.

 

Honestly, leaving the Chinese dragon aside, we'd love to have more Easterns in-cave.

Silvers are the only Easterns we have that I can think of atm. But eh, it's up to TJ what he picks for releases on his site.

 

I gotta agree(once more) with the vast majority of users that Holidays should stay as are. I am not religious, but have nothing against religion as well nothing against different cultures.

 

I can recall someone pointing out that some dress-ups over Halloween were cultural, therefore 'offensive'.

 

And I've yet to understand the reason why people find cultural and religion references to be a bad thing at all. I just want to know WHY! I keep seeing it around here and I just don't get it. :/

[MinervaClay]

Yup. Aangs-sister and Fiona weren't in-cave before they had their Holiday releases.

 

Honestly, leaving the Chinese dragon aside, we'd love to have more Easterns in-cave.

Silvers are the only Easterns we have that I can think of atm. But eh, it's up to TJ what he picks for releases on his site.

 

I gotta agree(once more) with the vast majority of users that Holidays should stay as are. I am not religious, but have nothing against religion as well nothing against different cultures.

 

I can recall someone pointing out that some dress-ups over Halloween were cultural, therefore 'offensive'.

 

And I've yet to understand the reason why people find cultural and religion references to be a bad thing at all. I just want to know WHY! I keep seeing it around here and I just don't get it. :/

People, and animals, are naturally xenophobic. It's been like that since the dawn of time. On a core, they fear or are repulsed by that which they can't personally identify with, be it a cultural thing, appearance, habit, or even dietary preference. I consider it silly, but I think it's a lingering effect of our survival instinct.

[siliconrose]

I'm okay with the idea of changing the holidays. If players feel left out, that's obviously not a good thing. Honestly, aside from the names on the dragons, I don't think there's anything wrong with what has already been released. They're all beautiful and represent more pure ideals, rather then being strictly tied to holiday they're affiliated with. It might be nice to widen the field slightly in future releases, but I think the concepts of Love, Horror, and the Generous Spirit are pretty global.

[sparkle10184]

I disagree! I love the holidays just the way they are

[Thuban]

 

And I've yet to understand the reason why people find cultural and religion references to be a bad thing at all. I just want to know WHY! I keep seeing it around here and I just don't get it. :/

I think part of it has to do with individual beliefs, and the quest to make things as "nonspecific" as possible to avoid offending people/ Personally, while I realy dont understand a lot of the reasonings behind specific holidays or beliefs, I do enjoy learning about the people who partake in them.

 

The following story/explination is not meant to be offensive.. its purely sharing a story, and expanding on the previous statement. If this does offend people, i am genuinely sorry, please pm me to discuss.

I worked in a factory for awhile.. every employee but three were all indian. We had the three major "groups" represented. For the most part, they were curious about me, but couldnt, or wouldnt talk to me because things about me were against their moral codes, and because of language barriers. However, because of the few people who did reach out to me, I gained a completely new insight on who they were, and what they stood for. My previously spoon fed to be beliefs were dispelled and i learned to respect the cultures and beliefs of the people I came into contact with most.

 

People are gunshy of those things they dont understand. Before working in that factory, I had no reason to ever look into the cultures of the people i was going to be working with. I was content to walk in, do my job and leave without talking to a single person there. The one old man, who went out of his way to include me in discussions, and explain some of the things that were happening in the factory and smooth over the social blunders that I was not aware I was making with the other employees really helped a lot. I really enjoyed learning about his culture from him, and he was genuinely happy when i would ask him direct questions about aspects of his lifestyle that i had picked up from reading more about his culture.

 

Back to the topic:

Suggestions I like so far:

* Adding more "divirsified" concepts to be considered for the different holidays

~ I would like to see more Singles awareness day themes dragons around valentines day. I would like to see more colors used, and move away from the bubblegum pink colors that have been previously used. I'dLOVE to see an evil pink dragon though.. at some point

~I think pulling colors.. or themes.. even ideas from other cultures and beliefs /should/ be encouraged. Avoiding direct symbols and such of those specific beliefs should be avoided, of course, but i see no harm in bringing in other cultures from outside of the US into this site.

 

* Changing the way we refer to these holidays.

~ My son refers to v-day as Love Day. He has no idea about the religious aspect of it, or any of the finer things about it other than "this is the day to really show people how much you care for them, and/or love them. Its the day you make sure your friends know how much you like them." We roll with the way the kids see the holiday. It will be extremely difficult though to get people to NOT refer to them as the holidays they are used to using. Unfortuantely. its an aspect that will be very difficult to change.

~we refer to christmas as christmas.. but we treat the holiday season as Winter Festivals.. or some other mundane name. My kids like to call the period between thanksgiving and new years as "Family buffet" season.. cause it seems we are constantly running around to one family gathering or another throughout the season.