Change the Holidays

[Pokemonfan13]

Removed. See two posts up.

 

Getting back on topic, we have reached a period of human history where atheists are declaring that "Freedom of religion" means "Freedom FROM religion". And I think that has a lot to do with our problem here. Calling the dragon a Christmas Dragon and releasing it on Christmas is not forcing religion down anyone's throat, any more than a Solstice Dragon would be forcing people to take on an atheist mindset. Everybody is free to collect or not collect. What we're not free to do is try to create a world that contains no references whatsoever to religion. We should be willing to accept that there are expressions of religion that are endemic to our culture and language, even if the actual meaning has been lost. (Ladybugs are named for the Blessed Virgin Mary [Our Lady], for example, so ought to be causing as much protest as Christmas scenes on public property, actually.)

 

I'm not going to object if there is a Solstice dragon, or even if TJ changes the date of the winter release to the solstice. But I think that it is unnecessary. The cave is a big enough place that there can be dragons that you don't like and refuse to collect, and that's totally O.K. Only the Snow Angels have a remotely Christian nickname, so the whole complaint is really over a single statement that the dragons embody the "Spirit of Christmas". I can't see getting totally worked up about this. If TJ wants to make a Ramadan Dragon, I'm not going to complain. I may or may not collect it, of course, but it's just some pixels.

There is a HUGE difference between not wanting to have someone else's religion forced down your throat and having a very non-religious version of christmas on a website. And every site I've been a member of has had a similar non-religious christmas celebration. Christmas is exactly as religious as you want it to be, and it is possible to celebrate it without any "Christ" at all.

 

And yes, I am an Atheist, and yes, I avoid christian stuff like the plague because it gets stuck in my head, and yes, I WOULD be offended by someone preaching at me of WHATEVER faith. But I still celebrate christmas.

[moondemon88]

Well wouldn't it be better to just add holidays for other religion/cultures ? Instead of arguing they should be changed completely?

 

Honestly i like the holidays though i dont really celebrate any irl. It gives me personally something to look forward to when im not at work.

 

On a side note most holidays in the catholic area of religion have been adopted from pagan religions to allow a easier transition for pagen from there original religion to the catholic one. Christmas was actually a greek festival under a diff name forgot the name exactly my advice is not to look it up since it's 18+ the fact it coincided with Christ birthday was coincidence. So this alone should not affect how someone should consider which holidays dragons should be allowed.

 

On a side note what would we do about the existing dragons? Im pretty sure people would be upset for the descriptions of there holiday dragons to change. Will more likely rage if you remove them all together.

[leodoug]

One of the problems I'm having is that MOST holidays either started as or became religious holidays. I am VERY ANTI-religious.. religious anything offends me, because of where I live.. I'm exceptionally tired of the door-to-door religious fanatics constantly badgering me on a daily or weekly basis. Doesn't matter which religion either, because about the only ones that don't bang on my door are the muslims.

 

That said, I DO want a change. I would much prefer seasonal holidays, which were celebrated long, long before organized religion. They were spiritual yes, but they were recognized by everyone regardless of location, language or culture. If you told someone you were going to have a harvest festival, everyone knew what you meant and could celebrate with you. There may have been small differences from one location/culture to another, but everyone knew what was being celebrated.. the end of the growing season and giving thanks for the harvest.

 

Winter, Spring, Summer and Autumn festivals have been celebrated since pre-history. I see no reason why DC can't do the same.

So you are saying that, just because you are "very ANTI religious" we all have to remove an trace of the traditions that we hold dear? Just because you dislike certain aspects (or all) of religion does not mean that you have the right to take it away from all of us. Its not freedom FROM religion, its freedom OF religion, and because of this we have the right to express our culture, and the cultures of others, however we see fit.

[earthgirl]

I WOULD be offended by someone preaching at me of WHATEVER faith. But I still celebrate christmas.

This. ^

 

Mentioning 'Christmas' in a Holiday description or having an Easter egg with a tiny cross on it or an angel decoration isn't the same thing as 'preaching' and shoving your religion/culture down someone's throat.

 

The DC Holidays had been fairly un-religious to me. And they DID have a Medieval setting. Aliset, Haunted house, even the cooking event, seemed pretty much medieval-themed to me.

 

And thing is, we're talking about a fantasy world where imaginary creatures like dragons live, not really our Earth.

Unless, I'm missing something.

 

I'd rather pretend that the cross symbol for exemple would have a totally different meaning on another (imaginary) planet.

[PointOfOrigin]

(I just want to make sure it's clear that any artist, even if they aren't in cave, can submit a holiday dragon. It just has to be done in secret and PM'd to TJ.)

I wasn't talking about dragons; I was talking about events themselves. Most of them consists of various sprites appearing on the site. Let's take for exaple Easter eggs. This ones for example, were made by pressing flowers to the eggs, wrapping it in some clothes (usually thin socks) and then being dunked in the color made from onion. And this eggs are made by drawing wih wax and then coloring them. That's pretty common where I come from and I think other countries from easter Europe have similar ways of decorating eggs. And this eggs have distinctive look which would bring more variety to Easter egg hunt. The same thinga goes for Christmas; every country has it's quirks. Every culture has scary stories that could be used for Halloween event.

[Thuban]

Hey guys... I think we are moving further and further away from the point of this thread. This thread isnt for comparing religions.. or lack of religion. Its not exactly about differences in cultures either.

 

Could we consider trying to get back to discussing how to make the holiday events (specifically the points on the first post) "better"?

 

Having re-read the first post again, I think that "Renaming events and dragons to be made up" thing can be done. It would be easy enough to name future events and released dragons with those things in mind. However, I think what is already existing, should stay as it is. Consider it a page in DC history books... along with old pinks and other things that exist, but are no longer around. I believe that is the most fair, and easy way to put that into effect. This game pretty much already has a religion. Aliset had a church that had the Gon statue, and the IRC pretty much has its own.. thing.

 

(Perhaps we could take on the challenge of defining the imaginary religion further for fun.. i think that could make for a really interesting, in depth post somewhere that its more.. reasonable to allow a religious debate/breakdown/everyone no matter what faith agreeing on terms of the religions post ) holy run on sentence, sorry

Edited January 17, 2013 by Thuban

[RainDear]

Personally, I would love it if the things on this site could be received in the same loving, sharing, giving spirit in which they were given. On this note, I think I will quit this discussion.

[PointOfOrigin]

Sorry Thuban.

 

The best thing in my opinion would be to edit the descriptions a little and leave it be. Maybe also change the name from holiday event to winter event, since the evnt usually starts a week before Christmas and the drop itself lasts for three days. In my opinion that'a just one big festivity. It seems to me that people call it Christmas event simply because that's the easiest way to distinguish it from other two holidays. Or we could use both names; Winter/Christmas and Hallowen/All saint's day. Valentine's day sounds pretty neutral.

[leodoug]

I think that the Holiday dragons descriptions could be changed if TJ saw fit. Other than that I love the Holiday events.

 

And with that I am leaving this discussion.

[hazeh]

Holy cow people.

 

First off, the only "offense" I see being taken is by people who keep going on about how Christmas isn't offensive.

 

Okay, first post- NOT OFFENDED BY CHRISTMAS. The people who brought up the idea and were defending it were mentioning how they just want to be INCLUDED. That is a whole separate idea. Changing the Christmasy theme is not going to ruin your holiday. The entire suggestion is trying to find a way to have other people who don't celebrate those holidays- because religious or not, those people exist- feel included in something that is special to the site themselves. "Oh you don't like it/ don't celebrate it, don't come on DC!"

Wow, way to include your fellow members.

 

I mentioned before that I am not religious at all and I celebrate both Christmas and Chanukah. I heavily advocate for having a Chanukah or Kwanza or whatever winter holiday dragon instead of a Christmas dragon this year or hopefully in the next coming years. For the past 4 or something years, we've celebrated Christmas on DC. Christmas. Not Chanukah, not Kwanza, Christmas. Bad thing? Not necessarily. No one's screaming at the top of their lungs that OMG CHRISTMAS IS OFFENSIVE TO ME.

They're saying, it'd be nice if there was an event that I could participate in that I felt connected to. Why is that so hard for people to understand? That's what's aggravating me. We're a community, we should act like it. Yes, this is TJ's site. But I hope he'd be sensitive enough to see that he has a huge userbase (which, I'm sure he does, he's a cool guy) that would like to see something they're comfortable with during a season that is special.

 

That's like every year getting to go to everyone else's birthday party but you never get one for yourself. Sure, you can have fun at someone else's party and enjoy yourself, but at the end of the day, why is it that everyone else gets to participate in something that is in one way or another special to them, and not yourself?

[angelicdragonpuppy]

I heavily advocate for having a Chanukah or Kwanza or whatever winter holiday dragon instead of a Christmas dragon this year or hopefully in the next coming years. For the past 4 or something years, we've celebrated Christmas on DC. Christmas. Not Chanukah, not Kwanza, Christmas.

Christmas has a side that is entirely non-religious. Chanukah and Kwanza, as far as I know, don't have a non-religious, non-racial side to them. A worldy, Santa-and-presents version of Christmas is not favoring anyone. I don't think the same could be said of things tied to the other two Holidays.

[Thuban]

Christmas has a side that is entirely non-religious. Chanukah and Kwanza, as far as I know, don't have a non-religious, non-racial side to them. A worldy, Santa-and-presents version of Christmas is not favoring anyone. I don't think the same could be said of things tied to the other two Holidays.

As with any other concept on this forum.. You can easily take colors and ideas from ANYWHERE and use them to make a dragon that is nothing like the original idea that sparked it. I could easily see kwanzaa colors being used as a theme for a dragon, without having anything that specifically ties it to kwaanza other than being released around christmas time.

 

Cliffhoppers totally stemmed from "how many animals can be shoved into once comcept, and still make sense" for example. The Gnome Pygmies i have floating around were a challenge from an op in the chat to make an adult dragon the size of the two headed swamp pygmy that was used in the haunted house event. The Chicken easter egg.. my daughter had been telling "why did the chicken cross the road" jokes all day long. I was bored and trying to learn animation.. and figured I would see if i could fit an animation inside of the egg. I didnt actually expect it would be used though, i had made it for fun.

[Snowytoshi]

I think that there should be more holidays represented. We don't need a banner across the site screaming our preference for one over another, we just need variety. Since other holidays are religious belief based, it may be better to just center the holiday dragons around winter.

[schmupti]

I'll celebrate anything going (as long as we don't end up with more holiday events here than we already have...) Occasions like Christmas, Hanukkah, Diwali (*wants a light dragon...*) are things we can ALL celebrate WITH others following other traditions. [...]

 

But if we ARE going this route, I want a Day of the Dead dragon.

Quoted for the Diwali dragon!

 

As I said in yon other thread, most sites play with the holidays of their countries of origins, and I'm not offended by it. And I understand how, to many people, these holidays are so secularized and ingrained in the culture that they've lost any whiff of religion. I'll still participate in activities and collect dragons for holidays I don't celebrate, because woo, new dragons!

 

But I don't see the harm in pushing a little further from this world into the DC fantasy world by truly making them 'winter holiday' dragons, or 'love day' dragons, etc. It might even offer a little breathing room thematically: for instance, midwinter holidays follow a general theme of light and renewal because the days begin growing longer, while spring holidays are about love and fertility because it's been a long, cold, lonely winter, and autumn holidays are usually foreboding and creepifying it will BE a long, cold, lonely winter, full of things in the woods trying to eat you... The current holidays already fit into that pattern, you'll notice.

 

But mostly, a winter holiday celebration on the solstice (because it's the official first day of winter, not because it's a holiday for another faith) would mean less conflict for many users with holiday obligations. A lurrrrrve dragon released (e.g.) on the cross-quarter day (half-way mark between equinox and solstice!) would be close enough to V-Day but DC wouldn't cut into your smexytime. An occasional unexpected release that alludes to another group's holiday (c'mon, Diwali dragon!) would be a nifty general release for general audiences, but a nice touch of inclusiveness for folks who celebrate that holiday.

 

And if a holiday event/release caused the site to have an aneurysm, it would be less likely to take TJ, the mods, etc., away from their own holiday festivities.

 

There are other advantages, apart from the religious issues, to considering a change to the holidays.

 

(Edited for minor clarification...)

Edited January 18, 2013 by schmupti

[HeatherMarie]

Christmas has a side that is entirely non-religious. Chanukah and Kwanza, as far as I know, don't have a non-religious, non-racial side to them. A worldy, Santa-and-presents version of Christmas is not favoring anyone. I don't think the same could be said of things tied to the other two Holidays.

I've gotta say I agree here. The "Christmas" festivities we have on DragonCave every year have NO religious ties whatsoever, unless you insist that the word Christmas itself is horrible because it has religious ties.

 

I wouldn't mind different colored "Holiday" dragons, AS LONG AS the entire event could STILL be done WITHOUT any religious references. Meaning no "Kwanza dragon" and no "Chanukah dragon". Make a dragon with traditional colors of those holidays, go ahead. But if we can't have "Christmas" dragons, we sure as heck shouldn't have "Kwanza" dragons.

 

I would support changes IN NAME ONLY to holiday events. No changes to the limited-edition breeds, no changes to the fun egg hunts or the completely non-religious tree decorating... No event changes. Just name changes. And maybe dragon color changes, if it could be worked out nicely.

[Dangeruse]

...They're saying, it'd be nice if there was an event that I could participate in that I felt connected to. Why is that so hard for people to understand? That's what's aggravating me. We're a community, we should act like it...

^That. I agree wholeheartedly.

 

I also think that part of the problem seems to be how difficult it is to suggest a dragon that openly draws from other religious cultures and celebrations. The current attitude seems to be that an out and out Kwanzaa dragon would be "too offensive" or exclusive to those who don't celebrate Kwanzaa; meanwhile, we have several dragons that are supposed to represent "The Spirit of Christmas".

 

And that's okay! It just has to be fair all the way around. If we're trying to avoid religious and cultural references altogether, we should make sure we're doing that all the way across the board. Otherwise, it looks like we're saying "everyone else's religion and culture should be avoided, but Christmas is fine." That applies whether you believe "Christmas" to be inherently religious or not.

 

I like the idea of starting a thread where people can add their religious/cultural celebrations for concept inspiration. Who wants to try a Festivus dragon with me?

[schmupti]

I wouldn't mind different colored "Holiday" dragons, AS LONG AS the entire event could STILL be done WITHOUT any religious references. Meaning no "Kwanza dragon" and no "Chanukah dragon".

Kwanzaa's not a religious observance. It's a cultural observance, about celebrating cultural heritage.

[Darkhole54321]

I've been repeating myself that loosely basing things on Xmas is fine. Blatently screaming Xmas is different.

The only thing that screams Xmas is that its called Xmas. The event has totally abstained from any religious mention, and is already politically correct enough.

 

For an RP position, perhaps you could RP that the event itself is in preparation of Boxing Day (Dec. 26).

 

And as for the original argument in the OP, medieval times were particularly lacking in holidays.

 

 

[angelicdragonpuppy]

If you went on to a Jewish site and they failed to wish you a happy Christmas, would you demand that they change things? Probably not, because it's their site and their rules.

 

Since Christmas dragons have been called, well, Christmas dragons for five years now, and since we have had Christmas-themed events for four years, I think it's fair to say that TJ finds the secular, non-religious side of Christmas to be good fun for everyone. Can't that be respected and left alone?

 

The only thing that screams Xmas is that its called Xmas. The event has totally abstained from any religious mention, and is already politically correct enough.

 

Well said. Since there is nothing offensive about gingerbread houses or wreath-decorating, I can only assume that the only offensive thing about the current system is that it uses the word Christmas... and I really question how offensive that can be. As has been said many times here, and shown through all the many non-religious Christmas events we've had, there is definitely a very, very worldy version of Christmas that ought to be enjoyable for everyone regardless of faith.

 

Yes, it also shares the name and day with a very religious celebration. But you know--pretty much any solstice celebration would be likely to have some religious meaning to someone, too.

 

But guhhh this thread is stressing me out so I'm going to just leave the poll to do the talking. Right now only 14% like the idea of a change while 77% would rather it not be changed. Now I suppose the poll results could totally flip as more votes come in... but I rather doubt it.

[Ashes The Second]

I don't see a reason for this, so no, I don't support it.

 

I don't celebrate Christmas as a religious festival, it's just Christmas to me.

[Zovesta]

I like holidays.

 

I like being able to gather around with family, hunt for eggs, have excuses to buy people chocolate, give people presents, honour the deceased...

 

I like to enjoy a joyous time all-around. I could do any of those things (well maybe not egg hunt) on any other day, but I like having an excuse for doing it.

 

So yes, my point is I like that this site celebrates Christmas as just a fun holiday and not something religious.

 

However, I don't think it would exactly murder thousands to just... change the name in the description to "Winter Holiday" or something similar. TJ already does in the news post. Why not the description? It would be a simple fix, only a word, and it would make some people feel less uncomfortable. I don't really feel uncomfortable with any holiday, myself, but if it makes people happier, why not do it?

 

so i pretty much agree with Emeraldmay

 

personally i think all holidays should be universally accepted and celebrated because more fun days woo but we're a community so shouldn't we be trying to make sure everyone's happy rather than jumping down throats for wanting to change a word

 

All I'm really seeing here is the same, "Ewwww, change! Kill it with fire!" mentality that I always see around here. Shouldn't be surprised at this point, really.

HAHAHA So I'm not the only one that's noticed.

Edited January 18, 2013 by Zovesta

[hazeh]

No one is saying change the event. No one is saying you can't have fun wreath-decorating or recipes to enjoy.

We're saying, those are not traditions that some people enjoy as a winter celebration! It would be nice if something was included for everyone, or at least make it vague enough so some people don't feel alienated from an event that's supposed to be for everyone! Because, obviously enough through this thread, some people feel a little left out. Stop trying to put them down for feeling that way, and start trying to do something to fix it. Nothing is going to hurt by removing some of the Christmas references. Hell, keep the Christmas references, but give me some Chanukah, Kwanza, and whatever else winter celebration references that are out there. Include people, for pete's sake, don't make them feel worse about something that's been so ingrained in our culture that they can't help.

 

Wreaths and trees are inherently Christmas related. They are Christmas celebrations, religious affiliation or not. I celebrate Chanukah as an Atheist, as well as Christmas, and Easter, and all the other big holidays that have religious roots. So WHAT? They are holidays that are attached to CULTURE. Some people aren't apart of that culture, and that's not a bad thing. So why not do everyone a favor and make a winter celebration event inclusive and inviting to everyone of different cultures?

I hope this year we have a Menorah lighting event or a Dreidel. GPX Plus had a dreidel event last year, and it got a lot of praise for being a fun event that people could enjoy without being affiliated with Judaism. So tell me what's so wrong about people asking for a change that'll benefit the entire community, instead of clinging to this idea that Christmas is for everyone? Because it ISN'T.

 

[XiziX]

Don't support this at all. I won't add more cause people have already said what I wanted to say.

 

I am not even religious. I actually don't belong to any religion at all. :T

Edited January 18, 2013 by Lyxii

[Pokemonfan13]

No one is saying change the event. No one is saying you can't have fun wreath-decorating or recipes to enjoy.

We're saying, those are not traditions that some people enjoy as a winter celebration! It would be nice if something was included for everyone, or at least make it vague enough so some people don't feel alienated from an event that's supposed to be for everyone!

...I really don't understand this. In one sentence you're saying we can have wreath decorating events, in the next [or rather the sentence after the next if you want to be technical] you're saying they're not generic enough and people are feeling left out. You can't have both.

 

Also... *pokes the poll* The people who do have a problem seem to be the vast minority, with the majority wanting no change at all. Subtle leanings towards being inclusive [a Chanukah colored dragon, perhaps] are probably not going to be a problem [combined with phrasing changes] but a complete revamp would probably cause more upset than is currently being caused by our completely secular "Christmas" event.

[Zovesta]

Shiny was pretty clear to me, PF13. Have more holiday inspirations than just Christmas, and make the Christmas ref a little more vague, as the whole point is to make something fun for everyone to enjoy, in spite of any religion.

 

I could, of course, be interpreting it wrong.