ANSWERED:Raffle Rethink?

[Coronaviridae]

I really, really doubt that someone who enjoys the game and would normally stay would decide to quit solely because they couldn't participate in a single raffle.

I would and I have.

 

I don't believe in supporting games that punish me for being new with my time and currency.

 

Making unfounded assertions about people's psychological motivations for doing things does not support the argument. Nor does it erase the underlying issue I continue to have with the idea of saying some people can participate in the raffle and some people can't:

 

You're basing your inclusion criteria on things you think make a "better" player.

 

When it comes to things like breeding threads and giveaways and anything DC users make for other users, you are more than welcome to come up with subjective criteria for who you want to award your bred eggs to.

 

When we start coming up with subjective criteria for the site awarding CB eggs to people because we want to encourage a specific kind of gameplay, we're violating the tenet of Dragon Cave that says "once an egg's on your scroll, it's yours to do what you want with it".

[DarkEternity]

I think point 4 is only one point that the OP made.

I think that the recipes were more engaging for the community than the tree decorating contest. It would be exciting to have contests based around team involvement.

/now completely off topic.

Edited December 30, 2012 by DarkEternity

[shikaru]

You were waiting for the opportunity to do that, weren't you? Long time no see.

I certainly couldn't have asked for a better one opportunity. c:

 

Long time no see indeed.

[_Z_]

This topic is closed to give members time to cool off, I also need time to read all of it.

 

(Wow, it appears Christmas is over.) Please feel free to report posts in case I have missed any.

 

 

~Edit: Topic is re-opened.

Please attack the topic not each other. Rudeness is unacceptable.~

Edited December 31, 2012 by _Z_

[TheGrox]

Okay guys, so the topic has reopened! It seems I am the first one to notice, lol.

 

So please can we not carry on with the attacking of each other that has happened before?

 

I think I might do a big edit to the first post, to summarise all the ideas we have so far, and the pros and cons of each.

 

But please remember there are a range of ideas to discuss here. Some may be unfair, as we like to point out, but say simply giving older players bonus entries (based on trophy level or previous raffle entries), doesn't completely exclude new players, as much as limiting the raffle to people over bronze trophy level, which seems to be a big problem for many people.

Edited December 31, 2012 by TheGrox

[Rally Vincent]

I want to comment some contradictions in statements (not necessarily in a stetment of a single user). One faction here wants to exclude or reduce chances of newer players because they might be leaving and not breeding the Prize Dragon. Another wants to prevent previous winners from winning again because they use the eggs to cash in.

 

So, that means that those players do not want

• no breeding
• breeding to "cash in"

which basically expresses that Winners should breed "for the community", and that everyone else should not have the same rights to get the new Prize Dragon. I don't think that is correct. If someone uses the Prize Dragon as a cash machine, you'll at least know that offspring will be available.

 

Secondly, what I read from several threads that pop up every now and then in DCF is that a large part of the userbase sets great value on rarity. And the moaning about certain breeds always comes after the initial run for eggs is satisfied. If 500 Prize dragons were given out, people initially would be glad because the chances to get the "first X Dragon" is much higher. But I am sure that very soon people would start to complain about how for a Prize Dragon there are "too many" and the supposition was for them to be "rare". I am in favor of raising the total number of prizes given out, depending on if there are color variations or not. But IMO, 500 are too much. About a 100 seem reasonable to me, depending on if HM are given out as well or not.

[drabrugon]

Secondly, what I read from several threads that pop up every now and then in DCF is that a large part of the userbase sets great value on rarity. And the moaning about certain breeds always comes after the initial run for eggs is satisfied. If 500 Prize dragons were given out, people initially would be glad because the chances to get the "first X Dragon" is much higher. But I am sure that very soon people would start to complain about how for a Prize Dragon there are "too many" and the supposition was for them to be "rare". I am in favor of raising the total number of prizes given out, depending on if there are color variations or not. But IMO, 500 are too much. About a 100 seem reasonable to me, depending on if HM are given out as well or not.

I think you are right with your statement regarding rarity. But I do not see why prizes have to be rare. There will always be some trouble to get low lineaged ones and some lineages will be more difficult to get because people want to keep them in high demand. So most people will have a lot to collect when TJ decides to give out more prizes.

 

After thinking about everything that was said in this thread after it was closed the idea of multi-clutches for Prizes is growing on me. That would also solve the "cash-in-problem", Prize owners can trade one egg each time the dragon produces and other players would have their chance in the AP. So the question is what problems multi-clutches bring up.

Edited December 31, 2012 by drabrugon

[KageSora]

I really think the prize number should be raised depending on the number of users who enter.

 

Keep it proportionally small, but still large enough that it's not some microscopic portion of the playerbase that's going to be able to obtain one.

[saltywench]

o_O I have at least 9 of each tinsel and had NO trouble finding them on the AP, so no one hording their prize dragon affected me getting all I wanted. In fact I was stunned they were all so unbelievably easy to get. I don't see what the problem is. Unless we are being all worried about linage.

[TheGrox]

I have edited the OP with most of the ideas I could get out of this thread. If you want me to add anything else, just ask. o3o

 

Saltywench: but getting low gens is still incredibly hard. Lineages are an integral part of the game, and whilst some people don't care about lineages, a lot of others do.

 

Rally Vincent: I, at least, am in no way suggesting that players must breed for the community. It is their prize to do what they want with. The problem is when they leave and do nothing with it.

Edited December 31, 2012 by TheGrox

[saltywench]

I have edited the OP with most of the ideas I could get out of this thread. If you want me to add anything else, just ask. o3o

 

Saltywench: but getting low gens is still incredibly hard. Lineages are an integral part of the game, and whilst some people don't care about lineages, a lot of others do.

 

Rally Vincent: I, at least, am in no way suggesting that players must breed for the community. It is their prize to do what they want with. The problem is when they leave and do nothing with it.

OMG LOL Linages are not an integral part of this game. TJ has never made lineages part of this game. Lineages are something the players came up with in order to keep from being bored while waiting for new dragons to drop. I don't see anyone changing the rules of prize giving just because people are upset they can't find a low lineage prize dragon as they are wading through an ocean of available dragons of that breed.

Seems a little whiny to me.

 

You can't take back a dragon from someone who leaves just because they didn't use it. You can't force someone who wins a dragon to breed it. It sounds like what everyone in here really wants is a second chance to win a prize dragon based on how much people play the game. Like if you stick around five years and have 3000 dragons you want a special chance to get a limited edition. I could get behind an idea like that. But no way on the pitching a fit over unused prize dragons. You can't enforce something like that.

[Fuzzbucket]

One thing I don't think can EVER be considered is requirements on a winner - to breed, to stick around, whatever.

 

Heck - I might win (yeah right) and at 68 years old, I might die in the night. We don't know why people leave. I do know a very keen middle aged player who had been here for about 4 months, was REALLY enthusiastic, got up to silver - and quit recently. Not for any of the reasons anyone has cited here,but because she got into lineages very fast, and every single time she tried to breed she hit a refusal. Incredibly bad luck - but still. I tried to persuade her to come back and do her house, but she won't. If she had - she'd have qualified under the bronze trophy idea - but would never have bred again, I fear.

 

We do not know people's motives for leaving, whenever they do it, so we cannot be imposing conditions like "if this dragon isn't bred within x time it will go to someone else..." I have been known to lose internet for months at a time and had to find me a sitter by SMS, for instance.

 

Never mind that we all have our own playstyle, as the TheGrox says - it is the winner's dragon and even if they BITE it that is their privilege (I read somewhere someone was biting a Wrapper... WHY ???)

 

I still feel very strongly that a plain ordinary raffle is fairest; it's random, open to all who fill the BASIC condition - having a scroll and - this year - cooking. And that any more contests with subjective judging should - well - not happen, please please !

[Rewolluzza]

Its not TJ's fault the owners of some of the prize dragons left but that shouldn't force him to change how the raffle is done. People come and go every year, that is the norm here and will also be so.

 

New or old players should have EQUAL chances at any and all raffles every year, it is completly unfair to exempt ANYONE from events, this includes raffles.

 

If the owner leaves or just plain doesn't want to breed their awarded dragon, thats their decision, we cannot force them nor will TJ force the issue.

 

Just like with spriter alts, we don't have to breed our differently colored dragons so people can have them in lovely lineages yet we do because we wish to, not because we are being forced to.

 

Leave the raffle as it is.

'Nuff said.

[KageSora]

It's not so much lineage that make me want more released each year--it's that we have an ever-growing userbase, so releasing the exact same number of prize dragons effectively decreases the percentage of the userbase who can have them as CB each year--and, in effect, taking even longer for the trickle-down effect to spread them to the point where you don't have to be insanely lucky to find a massively-generous person or have to sell your soul to get one. The reason you were able to find them on the AP? Because there were some generous winners, and they started spreading the wealth--not because Tinsels were some super-readily available breed. It took TIME before they were more easily available--they absolutely were not readily available right from the start.

 

So, by releasing more prize dragons in accordance to the number of users who enter, ideally to keep it at a roughly even percentage, that would maintain the rarity--to continue to release them in the exact same numbers no matter if one person or one hundred people join is going to increase the rarity of the prize-dragons.

 

Which means it would take even longer to get to the point where the breed itself is fairly simple to get if you ignore the lineage.

 

I'm personally in favor of trying to keep a fairly steady percentage of users who can win--and I don't want that to be an absurdly tiny one, either. I mean, obviously we can't have something like 10% of the users winning--that's actually a fairly large amount.

 

And I personally think they should be increased based on the number of users who obtained entries--not total users--if possible. That cuts back on abandoned scrolls or scrolls that were made but never used being counted, giving a more accurate estimate of "active" players.

[Rally Vincent]

Rally Vincent: I, at least, am in no way suggesting that players must breed for the community. It is their prize to do what they want with. The problem is when they leave and do nothing with it.

I still didn't get the difference to staying on site and never breeding it. Why is one okay and the other not? The outcome is the same.

[TheGrox]

OMG LOL Linages are not an integral part of this game. TJ has never made lineages part of this game. Lineages are something the players came up with in order to keep from being bored while waiting for new dragons to drop. I don't see anyone changing the rules of prize giving just because people are upset they can't find a low lineage prize dragon as they are wading through an ocean of available dragons of that breed.

Seems a little whiny to me.

 

Secondly, I myself am not 'whining' nor 'upset'. I have two 2nd gen Tinsels, and a bunch of 3rd gens, so why would I moan about not being able to get low gens? I appreciate others might not be able to, but I am not complaining. This is not the reason for the topic. The main reason that I made the topic was that I dislike how the raffle system is now. Firstly, I believe we need more prizes. Secondly, I believe we should have some sort of way to make sure not as many winners quit without ever doing anything with their prize, or kill it because they are too new to understand how the game works.

 

For many players, lineages are an integral part of the game. I'd be too bored and probably leave without them. But I know that not everyone cares for them.

 

 

Edit:

I still didn't get the difference to staying on site and never breeding it. Why is one okay and the other not? The outcome is the same.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't like people not breeding their prize. But at least if they have it and are still active they probably appreciate it. If the player leaves, then the prize was never appreciated.

 

It's like winning the lottery in a way. You could sit and stare at the money for the rest of your life and not do anything with it, but you would still be appreciating it more than someone who won and then burned the money.

Edited January 9, 2013 by SockPuppet Strangler

[Fuzzbucket]

I still didn't get the difference to staying on site and never breeding it. Why is one okay and the other not? The outcome is the same.

Nor do I actually....

 

But KageSora has suggested a good one - maybe prizes in proportion to the number of entries.

 

100 entries - 1 prize. 10 MILLION entries, er - well, you know....

 

*scratches head*

 

I THINK that would be 100,000 prizes.

[Rally Vincent]

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't like people not breeding their prize. But at least if they have it and are still active they probably appreciate it. If the player leaves, then the prize was never appreciated.

 

It's like winning the lottery in a way. You could sit and stare at the money for the rest of your life and not do anything with it, but you would still be appreciating it more than someone who won and then burned the money.

That is your justification? You assume that having something on the scroll equals appreciation. People have dragons on their scroll despite them not liking them. Can you preclude that a winner who stays does not breed the Prize because they find them ugly? Do you think it is correct to exclude a new player from winning because you think he might leave the site?

 

The outcome still is the same. You want to punish intentions, but not proven intentions, only imaginative ones whose substantiality you (and none of us, actually) can proof.

Edited December 31, 2012 by Rally Vincent

[drabrugon]

I still didn't get the difference to staying on site and never breeding it. Why is one okay and the other not? The outcome is the same.

This is what I do not understand, too.

 

 

Maybe the whole discussion would be not necessary if still Tinsels would be the Prize and not a new dragon. I think most people would not be afraid about the amount of prizes given out then, because everybody has a Tinsel (ok maybe no CB and maybe no 2nd gens). By doing a raffle most of the new dragons owners will be unknown, like last year, and it will be incredible difficult to get an offspring. Maybe that is what is making most people nervous?

Edited December 31, 2012 by drabrugon

[TheGrox]

@Rally Vincent: People are more likely to appreciate something if they are active and have it on their scrolls than if they leave and never look at it again though, aren't they?

 

I can't honestly see where this is going. I can see your point, and I myself don't like either people leaving or people not breeding it. But I don't know of any active tinsel owners from last year who don't breed them. I do know of tinsel owners that left fairly recently after getting them. There is no way to stop someone not breeding their tinsel without forcing them to play in a certain way (which I am of course against), but there is a way to try to reduce the number of players who quit without breeding their prize. That is the point of this thread. You are using hypothetical circumstances to argue your point, but I am going by what has already happened.

 

 

 

Also, about drabrugon's point, I would actually prefer it if there were either not new prizes each year (just keep giving out more CB Tinsels) or that Tinsels are available as HM (which we can't be sure either way on this year yet).

Edited December 31, 2012 by TheGrox

[Atalante]

I'm personally in favor of trying to keep a fairly steady percentage of users who can win--and I don't want that to be an absurdly tiny one, either. I mean, obviously we can't have something like 10% of the users winning--that's actually a fairly large amount.

 

And I personally think they should be increased based on the number of users who obtained entries--not total users--if possible. That cuts back on abandoned scrolls or scrolls that were made but never used being counted, giving a more accurate estimate of "active" players.

I agree with this. It's the only suggestion I agree with. It doesn't exclude anyone except for those who did not participate, which seems fair (and it's actually what's going to happen this year, I assume? If you didn't cook the red star recipes, you didn't get entries in the raffle).

 

And if the amount of participants justifies it, increasing the number of prizes being given out sounds good to me.

[Varnayrah]

 

 

 

I'm personally in favor of trying to keep a fairly steady percentage of users who can win--and I don't want that to be an absurdly tiny one, either. I mean, obviously we can't have something like 10% of the users winning--that's actually a fairly large amount.

 

And I personally think they should be increased based on the number of users who obtained entries--not total users--if possible. That cuts back on abandoned scrolls or scrolls that were made but never used being counted, giving a more accurate estimate of "active" players.

Yes, I agree with that, too. It's the only acceptable (in my opinion) solution, and if indeed the user base is increasing so much, it seems even appropriate to do so. I'm against excluding members because they don't have bronze trophy or (insert other limit) yet.

[Fuzzbucket]

Yes, I agree with that, too. It's the only acceptable (in my opinion) solution, and if indeed the user base is increasing so much, it seems even appropriate to do so. I'm against excluding members because they don't have bronze trophy or (insert other limit) yet.

Oh yes - a proportion of ENTRIES. Just like when you buy tickets in real life.

[TheGrox]

I think this suggestion if increasing prizes proportionally to entries is a good one, that most people will agree with. It seems that any sort of increase in prizes is wanted by most people.

Edited December 31, 2012 by TheGrox

[whitebaron]

I still didn't get the difference to staying on site and never breeding it. Why is one okay and the other not? The outcome is the same.

Actually, I believe appreciation for the game, not the dragon, is what grox wanted to say.

 

if you leave, you obviously did not like the game enough, or it was just not as important.

if you stay and keep the price to just look at it - well, your decision, but the game still factors into your life.

 

it's basically a wasted price, since not even the winner does anything with it.