ANSWERED:Raffle Rethink?

[grishiu]

1. Nope

2. Sure

3. Yes

4. Sure

5. Nooooo way

6. Nope

 

I am a huge fan of winners based on skill rather than just random chance. I miss the tree decorating contest quite a bit v.v

 

Also, more prizes is booooo. I like the rarity of prize dragons and if 50% of DC won a CB tinsel and the rest had to get 2nd + gens, well there'd probably be a LOT of complaining. Right now the amount of prizes is in my opinion, perfect. There's enough given out where people can try and trade for them without the value decreasing too much at once. Of course this only works when all the prize dragons are given out to active people.

 

Which brings me to the other point this topic covers: Inactive users winning prize dragons. I'd definitely like something to reward active users like giving them more raffle tickets depending on perhaps the length of time they'd been on DC and such, but maybe more like, 1 additional ticket every time a user does a raffle, or maybe 1 additional ticket based on how many years a user has been on the site.

 

Though, no matter how you tweak the system, there are people who play DC a specific way or do not like the idea of breeding their dragons. Perhaps a slight tweak might help, but if this starts getting to the point where only the active and the popular people win, this raffle will turn biased.

[BlazingAces]

@fuzzbucket

 

Well I'm glad it was just a misunderstanding.

I don't agree or disagree when it comes to increasing the amount of prize dragons given. I'm pretty neutral. If it happens, awesome. If it doesn't ill keep on trucking.

 

I'll leave this discussion to y'all now . Ill give TheGrox a break & stick my nose in some other thread

Edited December 31, 2012 by BlazingAces

[Snowytoshi]

1. Nope

2. Sure

3. Yes

4. Sure

5. Nooooo way

6. Nope

 

I am a huge fan of winners based on skill rather than just random chance. I miss the tree decorating contest quite a bit v.v

 

Also, more prizes is booooo. I like the rarity of prize dragons and if 50% of DC won a CB tinsel and the rest had to get 2nd + gens, well there'd probably be a LOT of complaining. Right now the amount of prizes is in my opinion, perfect. There's enough given out where people can try and trade for them without the value decreasing too much at once. Of course this only works when all the prize dragons are given out to active people.

 

Which brings me to the other point this topic covers: Inactive users winning prize dragons. I'd definitely like something to reward active users like giving them more raffle tickets depending on perhaps the length of time they'd been on DC and such, but maybe more like, 1 additional ticket every time a user does a raffle, or maybe 1 additional ticket based on how many years a user has been on the site.

 

Though, no matter how you tweak the system, there are people who play DC a specific way or do not like the idea of breeding their dragons. Perhaps a slight tweak might help, but if this starts getting to the point where only the active and the popular people win, this raffle will turn biased.

The reason why we need more prizes is because the DC userbase has grown and the winners to people participating needs to stay proportionally similar.

[Xythus]

The reason why we need more prizes is because the DC userbase has grown and the winners to people participating needs to stay proportionally similar.

Question, do we need more prizes, or do we just want more prizes?

 

I do remember that tinsels, despite only 30 CBs given, the children still managed to make their way to the rest of DC until a good high percentage of us had at least one.

[Snowytoshi]

Question, do we need more prizes, or do we just want more prizes?

 

I do remember that tinsels, despite only 30 CBs given, the children still managed to make their way to the rest of DC until a good high percentage of us had at least one.

I think a little of both However it makes sense to increase the prize rate propotrionally to how the DC user base as grown in the last two years...

[Fuzzbucket]

Question, do we need more prizes, or do we just want more prizes?

 

I do remember that tinsels, despite only 30 CBs given, the children still managed to make their way to the rest of DC until a good high percentage of us had at least one.

I think if you have a user base of 1000 and 10 prizes that's fine.

 

But when you get to 10,000, 10 is - a bit harsh, no ? It's a bit like national lottery tickets in the UK - why bother; they have too few prizes, but massive ones. Your chances are minimal, so they shoot themselves in the foot there - I've not bought a ticket since the odds got so phenomenally awful.

 

A chance of being one of 50 people getting a £1 million prize is WAY better to encourage entries than being in with the chance of being the 1 person getting £15 million. This is raised and ignored constantly. It is also why many buy tickets on other European lotteries instead !

[Sookan]

I dunno. I think a 'good proportion' is subjective. I've been playing since... um... well, I actually forgot, but I'll find out when I make this post, and my biggest accomplishment is a 4th gen Bronze Tinsel. I suppose some folks out there don't have a single Tinsel, so I count myself rather fortunate, but I'm also a bit peeved since I'm a CB purist. I honestly think that everyone - old players and new alike - should have a chance at obtaining a CB version of every dragon at least once a year. I know I'm not very deeply rooted in Dragon Cave's community, so I don't have a good grasp of the economy and whether or not more CB rares would help it out, but that's kinda the thing. I don't really trade often, and I don't really care what everyone else's up to. All I want for my scroll is a depiction of every sprite (as a CB adult) and hatchling, so restrictions that stand in my way are naturally going to bother me until Dragon Cave's death. I am under no illusions, of course. I know it'll never change to be 100% fair, and my play style will never be fully supported, but... c'est la vie.

[Fuzzbucket]

With a raffle we all have a chance. Just - not all of us will succeed...

[Sookan]

Oh, of course. Problem is, that chance may never come again, like with the seasonal holiday dragons. Most are mine are 2nd gen, which I should be grateful for, but since they'll never have breeding partners on my scroll... I can't do a thing with them!

[fuzzzzj]

I personally like the raffle as it is now. It seems fair and like some other people before mentioned, you had to work for it a little. However, I do agree that we could make the amount of prizes given porportional to the current user base.

 

Guess what? Life isn't fair.

Well... I don't think that applies to the current situation here. "Life isn't fair" applies to being one of the people who gets struck by lightning. Here TJ can make it as fair as he wants to and he probably should because he wants his user base to grow (and with it the profit like anybody would ). Everything here except suggestion 5 would anger me greatly. I was a newbie sometime this year and I plan to stick around and I know what I'm doing. (I have a bronze trophy right now.)

 

Also people can do whatever they want with their dragons. Even though it is kinda annoying.

[drabrugon]

Question, do we need more prizes, or do we just want more prizes?

 

I do remember that tinsels, despite only 30 CBs given, the children still managed to make their way to the rest of DC until a good high percentage of us had at least one.

I think Tinsels spread very fast, there even had been some kind of plague in the trading threads and there are lineages that are worthless now. But this is only true for the 2011 Tinsels. All of them are known and their owners are still active (at least most of them). But it is different with the 2012 Tinsels in my opinion. I have not a single one from the new Tinsel lines. Ok, I have not traded for them, but I have also not found one in the AP. Most of my Tinsels from 2011 lines I found there. Of course I can only speak for what I experienced.

 

Maybe it is necessary to increase the number of Prizes given out a little bit when a raffle is used to hand them out. But again, this thought is selfish and the wish for more prizes is only existing because it would make them easier to obtain.

Edited December 31, 2012 by drabrugon

[Fuzzbucket]

I think Tinsels spread very fast, there even had been some kind of plague in the trading threads and there are lineages that are worthless now. But this is only true for the 2011 Tinsels. All of them are known and their owners are still active (at least most of them). But it is different with the 2012 Tinsels in my opinion. I have not a single one from the new Tinsel lines. Ok, I have not traded for them, but I have also not found one in the AP. Most of my Tinsels from 2011 lines I found there. Of course I can only speak for what I experienced.

 

Maybe it is necessary to increase the number of Prizes given out a little bit when a raffle is used to hand them out. But again, this thought is selfish and the wish for more prizes is only existing because it would make them easier to obtain.

Also to encourage more people to play. Where there is a vanishingly small chance, it's less likely to attract players...

[TheGrox]

TheGrox bravely raised the subject and I totally agree - it is a good one for discussion.

I do like a good discussion, and I don't intend to offend anyone. I hope that's not the way I come across. I was a little surprised that my little discussion turned into 18 pages in a day or so though... I obviously hit on a subject people feel strongly about.

 

I may sound contradictory at times, maybe that's because I'm not the best at wording things sometimes. Or maybe I just change my mind too much .

 

I still stick by my stance about the bronze trophy limit, but I doubt even that's going to happen with the amount of objection to it being 'unfair'. Seriously though, we haven't had that many new player's points of view on this, and one that did post here - whitebaron - said he wouldn't mind being excluded from a raffle. But I suppose I'm somewhat flogging a dead horse now.

 

I think maybe the main topic of discussion now should be whether we should up the amount of prizes, as that seems to be the only thing people don't get angry about being suggested. Maybe we should have a poll on it? :3

[HeatherMarie]

I definitely like the idea of more prizes given out based on the overall number/percentage/whatever of entries. That is one of the only truly fair suggestions I've seen in this thread. And it makes sense. As the userbase grows, so should the prizes. Otherwise, a lesser and lesser minority will win as time goes on.

[grishiu]

Raising the amount of prizes given to like, 36 (6, 12, and 18) would be fine with me. Raising it to like 50 wouldn't. At least for me. I think 1 in ever 1,000 players is a GREAT odd considering how large other sites are. Remember, these dragons will be breeding as well, so having too many prizes will put a lot of offspring into the DC economy and making their value decrease drastically in a short amount of time. Then you will get what were supposed to be (I would consider them anyways) valuable and unique dragons becoming mundane and ordinary. All except the 2nd gen ones, that is.

 

I'd rather NOT have the prizes turn worthless in a week

[drabrugon]

Also to encourage more people to play. Where there is a vanishingly small chance, it's less likely to attract players...

But is the raffle and the prizes really made to attract people? If that is the case then one per year is too little to make people stay or attract new players. Excuse me, but I never see it as some kind of advertisement for the site.

 

 

Oh and to grishiu's point - I do not know why some people want Prizes to be rare and difficult to obtain. Sometimes it seems to me like most people would even collect a heap of s**t if it would be a rare sprite on this site (and I am not attacking anybody, it is just what it looks like to me). Maybe we should take a big step back from this mentality when it comes to holidays and prizes. We should not forget that the forum users are not a representative amount of all DC users. We can not be sure that everybody has a Tinsel on their scroll.

Edited December 31, 2012 by drabrugon

[Sturmschwinge]

Seriously though, we haven't had that many new player's points of view on this, and one that did post here - whitebaron - said he wouldn't mind being excluded from a raffle.

Being a new player it would feel kinda awkward for me to step in here where all the "old guys" have a discussion and say something like "but I want a fair chance". I would fear to sound greedy or too cheeky.

 

What is more important to me is the fact that a lot of the "old" players said loud and clear that they don't want any preferred status, more tickets or anyone being excluded from the raffle.

[Fuzzbucket]

But is the raffle and the prizes really made to attract people? If that is the case then one per year is too little to make people stay or attract new players. Excuse me, but I never see it as some kind of advertisement for the site.

No - but it is something that players seem to enjoy - and it ceases to be fun for anyone if the chances are astronomically small - and then you get threads like this.

[_Charky]

I think it should be based around the forum next year... if you don't use the forum, you have no use for a prize dragon anyway.

 

EDIT:

 

NO, I didn't mean this the way everyone has interpreted it. I just mean, announce it on the news thread and nowhere else. I mean use as in use like a tool, not use to post.

 

I meant, the event should be announced in a news post and a news post only, because if you don't een check the news thread you would never know the event existed to participate in it. If you don't kheck the news thread, you probably don't know about trading either, and would probably not know about gifting, so you would keep most of the eggs for yourself- IF you bred any. Which isn't really that fair.

Edited December 31, 2012 by dracocharky

[Snowytoshi]

I think it should be based around the forum next year... if you don't use the forum, you have no use for a prize dragon anyway.

I'm very strongly against this. Plenty of people don't go on the forum, but still have use for one. There are people who go on the IRC, but are not on the forums and even if they go neither it does not mean they have no use for them. Plenty of non forum users are aware of these events and may look forward to it every year.

[Thuban]

I think a little of both However it makes sense to increase the prize rate propotrionally to how the DC user base as grown in the last two years...

I think this is the opening i needed for making my statement regarding new prize dragons...

 

 

Tins were interesting while they had their run, however after two years, they have caught up in ratios and its annoying to try to breed them. The idea to release a new prize dragon came up and at first people were a bit leery of it, but logic wins:

 

It took two years for Tins to catch up in ratios. There are a lot in rotation, and because of how easily they bred in the beginning, most people who wanted one, did get one eventually. With them being so hard to breed now, a new prize was suggested purely because what fun is it to win a prize that you wont be able to breed? Wouldnt you rather win something that you know will actually be successful at breeding?

 

So logically new prizes are happening because of the fact that people will want to be able to get eggs from whatever they win.It is up to the people who win whether they will breed for fun, breed for profit or breed just to breed.

 

The raffle is purely to make it fair for everyone because userbased judging had its flaws. Anyone who was in the chat during tree judging knows that people got tired of judging trees and were downvoting based on color themes, or how many ornaments.. some people were giving nothing but empty trees the higher scores because they were tired of voting. Granted, if one person wins with only having completed one recipe.. yea, people will be sore and cranky, but thats half the fun of a raffle. Every entry has a chance at winning... more chances is better, but anyone who made the effort to complete at least once recipe has a chance. Since its not based on voting there is no chance at favoritism or any outside influence affecting who gets picked.

 

Im not cool with people being left out of the contest purely because they dont have enough dragons or arent as active as other people. Im pretty much boycotting unifaction because Im not allowed to participate in events due to my post count. Im active on the game, but im not active on most forums. I feel its wrong to exclude people from contests where everyone should have a chance purely because of post counts, or trophy levels or some other mundane detail. It doesnt matter what their play habits are, or whether they are forum goers or not. What matters is what the person chooses to do with their account on their own terms.

 

While i would like to see a slightly higher amount of people win our raffles (doubling the pool would be nice, but anymore than that... would break the ratios way too quickly if its only took two years to even out tins). Honestly, i would like to see what happens with the latest round of prizes (if theres HM) before considering how to change our current system I think i'll just wait to see what happens.

[Fuzzbucket]

I think it should be based around the forum next year... if you don't use the forum, you have no use for a prize dragon anyway.

I don't get that at all. What USE are you supposed to have for one ?

 

If my grandson - not allowed here - had won one, why should he not have it, if he did the recipes and so on. There are MANY more players off forum than on.

 

I assume you mean that they "should" breed and trade/gift them here ? But whether on or off forum - there can and should be no such restriction or requirement. As someone said - if they win this year, they would not breed theirs. I certainly wouldn't use one for trading as such though I would probably gift from it. And lots of people trade through EATW and through other forums entirely - I trade and gift through a forum that has nothing to do with dragons, and I'm sure others do too.

 

And YES to Thuban's post.

Anyone who was in the chat during tree judging knows that people got tired of judging trees and were downvoting based on color themes, or how many ornaments.. some people were giving nothing but empty trees the higher scores because they were tired of voting.

 

It was silly, plain silly. People were giving 10 to every tree they saw at one point, as there was a sort of in-forum competition to see who could get to the point where it said "you have judged every tree..."

Edited December 31, 2012 by fuzzbucket

[_Charky]

I'm very strongly against this. Plenty of people don't go on the forum, but still have use for one. There are people who go on the IRC, but are not on the forums and even if they go neither it does not mean they have no use for them. Plenty of non forum users are aware of these events and may look forward to it every year.

if they're on the IRC, they'll see it in the topic. I don't mean you have to be a member, I just mean it should only be announced on the forum, like in the good old days.

[sheppardkid]

Raising the amount of prizes given to like, 36 (6, 12, and 18) would be fine with me. Raising it to like 50 wouldn't. At least for me. I think 1 in ever 1,000 players is a GREAT odd considering how large other sites are. Remember, these dragons will be breeding as well, so having too many prizes will put a lot of offspring into the DC economy and making their value decrease drastically in a short amount of time. Then you will get what were supposed to be (I would consider them anyways) valuable and unique dragons becoming mundane and ordinary. All except the 2nd gen ones, that is.

 

I'd rather NOT have the prizes turn worthless in a week

I think maybe the main topic of discussion now should be whether we should up the amount of prizes, as that seems to be the only thing people don't get angry about being suggested. Maybe we should have a poll on it? :3

I personally agree with grishiu about the rarity of the prizes. I wouldn't mind a small increase in the number of prizes given out, but I would like them to remain rare. After all, the whole point of them being prizes is to keep them rarer than most dragons (in my opinion). I'm not good with the statistics so I'm not going to go there and will leave that thought to others who are.

 

As for suggestions on how to keep it fair, I still think that the best option mentioned is the "extra effort for extra entries." This allows newer and older players alike to have the same chances, if they so desire. It could have even been done this year if you think about it. The finding of the items and recipes could have been base entries for everyone. From there, each recipe made would have added an extra entry for the player (as was the case this year). Finally, decorating the gingerbread house could have been another entry or two. You, as the user, would have had control over the number of entries you entered. The less effort you put into the event, the fewer entries. Downside: it would be unfair to people who don't have much of a chance to get on during the holidays. Upside: the length of the event can be extended if necessary, although I think 2 weeks is plenty of time. Also, it would not exclude ANYONE.

Edited January 1, 2013 by sheppardkid

[_Charky]

I don't get that at all. What USE are you supposed to have for one ?

 

If my grandson - not allowed here - had won one, why should he not have it, if he did the recipes and so on. There are MANY more players off forum than on.

 

I assume you mean that they "should" breed and trade/gift them here ? But whether on or off forum - there can and should be no such restriction or requirement. As someone said - if they win this year, they would not breed theirs. I certainly wouldn't use one for trading as such though I would probably gift from it. And lots of people trade through EATW and through other forums entirely - I trade and gift through a forum that has nothing to do with dragons, and I'm sure others do too.

Actually, I find it incredibly greedy that less people should get a share of the christmas joy, because someone doesn't want to breed their dragon.

 

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that if you didn't read the news thread to know about the competition, you wouldn't know that it ever existed. You don't have to USE the forum, you just need to check the news thread.