Zombie Dragons... never gonna have one

[screwygirl]

35 minutes ago, Dracaena said:

I suspect the post troubling you was mine.  I have been called a blunt object before and I am not always good at sugar coating.  I find the whole existence of zombies in this game objectionable and have trouble understanding why anyone would want in in the first place.  This is partly I expect derived from another game I have played for many years.  It is an older mmorpg where one of the races you can play is dragon.  The main foe in the game is the withered aegis, who consist of mainly undead.  One of the major bosses is a former general ally (dragon) to the living races who fell in battle and was corrupted by the enemy.  I've spent way too much time fighting undead in the blighted lands to relish the idea of having a zombie live with me (on my scroll).

 

Do take what I say with a grain of salt.  I didn't expect you to take my words so literally.  I'm not good with fancy internet stuff either so here's the rp version from my dragon character.  *Wing Hug*

I truly appreciate this with all of my heart. Thank you so much. I can understand your distaste for the undead.

I am somewhat of a completionist, so having one of every dragon was a goal... but even though these are just pixels, the idea of killing something that I care for is unacceptable. So my oversensitive side and my completionist side are at war, here (though my sensitive side will prevail). 

 

It renews my hope that this community is a really good one ( @Syiren has been singing its praises for some time now). I'm glad she convinced me to join.

 

 

Art by milenowski (Free to use)

[Jazeki]

7 hours ago, Naruhina_94 said:

You make the dragon drink a sleeping potion to end his suffering. Its deadly poison kills the dragon painlessly. The dragon is staring at you with sadness, gratitude and relieve as he lays in your arms.

If there is an addition of mercy/euthanasia/whatever,  I don't particularly like this phrasing--mostly the part about the deadly poison and the sadness. In the original kill version, I get the impression that the dragon is sad because they don't understand what you did. 

 

I'd prefer something like this: 

You give the dragon a powerful potion that renders it unconscious. The dragon passes away in your arms shortly after.

 

This way, you don't have to draw attention to suffering, sadness, or how exactly the potion works. 

 

I have had to euthanize pets and while I understand that part of the concoction of drugs that causes them to actually die is given in excess, the emphasis is placed on the aspect of dying after they have already fallen asleep--not because of it. 

 

 

[Naruhina_94]

6 hours ago, Jazeki said:

If there is an addition of mercy/euthanasia/whatever,  I don't particularly like this phrasing--mostly the part about the deadly poison and the sadness. In the original kill version, I get the impression that the dragon is sad because they don't understand what you did. 

 

I'd prefer something like this: 

You give the dragon a powerful potion that renders it unconscious. The dragon passes away in your arms shortly after.

 

This way, you don't have to draw attention to suffering, sadness, or how exactly the potion works. 

 

I have had to euthanize pets and while I understand that part of the concoction of drugs that causes them to actually die is given in excess, the emphasis is placed on the aspect of dying after they have already fallen asleep--not because of it. 

 

 

 

I understand, i'm sorry for your loss. Updated.

[Fuzzbucket]

10 hours ago, Jazeki said:

You make the dragon drink a sleeping potion to end his suffering. Its deadly poison kills the dragon painlessly. The dragon is staring at you with sadness, gratitude and relieve as he lays in your arms.

 

JUST in case we ever got this (which I would rather we didn't, but that's just me)  it should be relief, not relieve. I imagine TJ would pick that up, but still....

[Jazeki]

2 hours ago, Fuzzbucket said:

 

JUST in case we ever got this (which I would rather we didn't, but that's just me)  it should be relief, not relieve. I imagine TJ would pick that up, but still....

I think you quoted the wrong person for this. I'm aware it's supposed to be relief, but I suggested a totally different flavor text as I don't want to read anything about how the dragon "feels" about my decision. Naruhina is from Italy, so I was ignoring the grammar issue for the time being. The intent is what I'm more concerned about right now.

Edited July 21, 2020 by Jazeki

[Fuzzbucket]

I realise Naruhina is from Italy - but occasionally things do get copied in before their grammar is fixed, was all. Peace.  ☮️

Edited July 21, 2020 by Fuzzbucket

[Naruhina_94]

oh ok thanks for making me notice. it's fixed anyway by Jazeki previous check

Edited July 21, 2020 by Naruhina_94

[Shokomon]

I don't really care for switching the wording to Euthanize. Now matter what you call it, you are killing a dragon.

 

But on this specific thread topic, I don't particularly care. I've long made peace that I'm never going to kill a dragon, and thus, will never have Zombies.

 

I have vampires, but that's because I view their means of reproduction just that, a means of reproduction. They are alive in a way Zombies aren't, so it bothers me less. 

[Naruhina_94]

  Since Halloween is getting closer I would like to give an update to this particular post as the topic got buried under new ones. Anyone feel free to give constructive criticism. In particular I would like to know how this could be implemented. How this addition would actually damage the game mechanics and why? 

 

New possible Zombification Methods

 

The killing sentence as it stands now (spoiler for those who dont want to read it):

Spoiler

You take your blade and stab the dragon, watching the life slowly leave its eyes as it stares at you, wondering why you betrayed it

 

The current sentence displayed when you kill one of your dragons is in contrast with the general spirit of the game which is about caring and raising the creatures in our scroll. It would be nice to add a different way to obtain zombies with the addition of a new mechanic in game.

We do have both Incubate and Earthquake. Their purpose is to make eggs hatch faster, with Earthquake being more risky (your eggs could die of Earthquake) but more rewarding as with a single action there is a chance of hatching multiple eggs, and the other Incubate is definetly more safe, but only removes 1 day to a single egg.

 

Applying the same concept here are some examples on how the game can be expanded:

 

-----------------------------

 

Killing: works as it is now. 

 

 Can be performed on: Living eggs, hatchlings, and adults.

Usage Limitations: Can be performed 5 times every two weeks.

Killing an egg, hatchling, or adult will cause it to die and eventually be removed from your scroll. This action is not always successful and hatchlings or adults may resist your attempts to kill them

 

Text Displayed in case of success (spoiler for those who dont want to read it): 

Spoiler

You take your blade and stab the dragon, watching the life slowly leave its eyes as it stares at you, wondering why you betrayed it

 

-----------------------------

Death: Killing action renamed to not be guilt trip. Success: the dragon dies. Neutral/dodge: the dragon is recovering Fail: Dragon Survives.

 

Can be performed on: Living eggs, hatchlings, and adults.

Usage Limitations: Can be performed 5 times every two weeks.

If an egg, hatchling, or adult die they eventually will be removed from your scroll. Hatchlings or adults have higher chances of survival than helpless eggs.

 

 

Success:

You've noticed your dragon's health is failing. Eventually, it passes away.

 

Neutral:

Your dragon seems weak, but appears to be recovering.

 

Fail: 

You've checked your dragon's health and all seems well.

 

-----------------------------

Mercy: an alternate way of Killing that doesn't imply murder. The dragon is compliant, so it doesn't have a failure chance. This is the reason of the restriced usage limitations.

 

Can be performed on: Living eggs, hatchlings, and adults.

Usage Limitations: Can be performed 1 time every two weeks.

Applying mercyful kill on an egg, hatchling, or adult will cause it to die and eventually be removed from your scroll. 

 

Success:

You give the dragon a powerful potion that renders it unconscious. The dragon passes away in your arms shortly after. 

 

-----------------------------

 

Experimenting: On Success: The Dragon feels restored (1 day removed to breeding CD). Neutral: Nothing happens. On Fail: Dragon Dies.

 

Can be performed on: Hatchies, hatchlings, and adults.

Usage Limitations: Can be performed 3 times every two weeks. Has a sligher higher chance of success than Killing as the dragon is willing to experiment dark magic with you

Experimenting some potions on an hatchie, hatchling, or adult could go wrong and accidentaly will cause it to die. If the dragon isn't resurrected as Zombie it will eventually be removed from your scroll. 

 

Success:

You take a dark potion with dark and lighting mana crystals and warn the dragon on the dangers of it. He agrees to try it, he peacefully falls asleep and .... upon waking up he magically feels incredibly restored.

 

 

Neutral: 

You take a dark potion with dark and lighting mana crystals and warn the dragon on the dangers of it. He agrees to try it, he peacefully falls asleep and .... upon waking up he doesn't feel any difference.

 

Fail:

You take a dark potion with dark and lighting mana crystals and warn the dragon on the dangers of it. He agrees to try it, he peacefully falls asleep and .... something goes wrong! He never wakes up.

 

Experimenting on Eggs: On Success: the egg hatches (You keep the hatchie) on Neutral: The egg hatches (the hatchie runs away) on Fail:  Egg dies.

 

Success:

You run an experiment on the egg. However, something went wrong and the egg has broken beyond repair. [Dead egg - also explains why a dead egg can not be revived]

 

Neutral:

You run an experiment on the egg. However your experiment causes the egg to hatch. You're so surprised by the result that you failed to notice the hatchling has run away and escaped. [Hatchling lost to the wilderness]

 

Fail:

You run an experiment on the egg. However your experiment causes the egg to hatch. The hatchling tries to run away but you catch it. [You keep the hatchling]

 

-----------------------------

 

Cure (requires new game mechanic as hatchies and adult dragons can be eligible to become cursed at player choice)

 

Can be performed on: hatchlings, and adults.

Usage Limitations: Can always be performed on living dragons who caught a disease.

Hatchling and adults marked by the player can become cursed and be cured. This action is not always successful and if cure fails the dragon dies and eventually will be removed from your scroll.

 

Success:

You notice your dragon becoming weaker and weaker because of some mysterious curse and immediatly prepare a healing potion with life mana crystals. The potions successfuly cures him instantly.

 

Fail:

You notice your dragon becoming weaker and weaker because of some mysterious  curse and immediatly prepare a healing potion with life mana crystals. The potions sadly isn't strong enough and the dragon dies.

 

-----------------------------

 

New BSA "Reviving": (I leave you the choice of the more fitting breed for this one) -  the database generates a whole new dragon of a randomly-selected body type.

 

Can be performed on: Hatchies, hatchlings, and adults randomly generated (breed and stage are also random)

Usage Limitations: Can be performed 5 time every two weeks. 

 

Success:

You go to the forbidden Dragon Graveyard to try to bring back the body and soul of one of them... The ritual also requires complex materials and many mana shards, but eventually it seems to work! It's Alive!!! 

 

Fail:

You go to the forbidden Dragon Graveyard to try to bring back the body and soul of one of them... The ritual requires complex materials and many mana shards, you are not prepared enough for it and eventually you go away empty handed.

 

-----------------------------

 

I would like if people could vote which new option they prefer the most so it can be developed in his specific topic.

Edited September 29, 2020 by Naruhina_94
Update

[Stromboli]

Still not a fan of "random dead dragon from the graveyard", even limiting to CBs, if those are supposed to be dragons that someone else owned and killed. You would also need to limit to "no progeny" or you could still end up messing up peoples' lineages. 

 

At which point it's like, why not just have that action generate a new dragon like Summoning instead? Surely dragons raised by people are not the only ones that die.

[Naruhina_94]

2 minutes ago, Stromboli said:

Still not a fan of "random dead dragon from the graveyard", even limiting to CBs, if those are supposed to be dragons that someone else owned and killed. You would also need to limit to "no progeny" or you could still end up messing up peoples' lineages. 

 

At which point it's like, why not just have that action generate a new dragon like Summoning instead? Surely dragons raised by people are not the only ones that die.

 

You're right about progeny, I modify the post with your observation.

I could agree with the summoning, I just wonder where would I summon it from and how. I try leave some ideas, let me know if you would like them

[Stromboli]

I mean, you can still say "from the graveyard" for color, but the database generates a whole new dragon of a randomly-selected body type so that you aren't taking a dragon that was previously owned by someone else. That way people who kill dragons for non-zombie purposes can know their dragons will stay dead, and people who don't want to kill things have an alternative.

[olympe]

2 hours ago, Naruhina_94 said:

 

You're right about progeny, I modify the post with your observation.

I could agree with the summoning, I just wonder where would I summon it from and how. I try leave some ideas, let me know if you would like them

Even with summoning undeads, you usually need a corpse to summon them from. Which puts us back to square one. Where does the corpse come from?

[Naruhina_94]

The suggestions involves a 3rd kind of Summoning, hence a BSA assigned to some dragon that fits it by lore. Tecnically they are summoned from the graveyard  https://dragcave.net/graveyard.

Even if it shows no recent dead dragons there could always be old corpses. I would have had no issues to actually revive real Cb dragons with no progeny that had been killed, but as Stromboli suggested this reminds summons so much that it could be just a dark version of it. 

Edited September 28, 2020 by Naruhina_94

[ShorahNagi]

On 7/20/2020 at 12:11 PM, Naruhina_94 said:

Experimenting: On Success: restores BSA or Breeding cooldowns. On Neutral: Nothing Happens. On Fail: Dragon Dies.

 

Can be performed on: Hatchies, hatchlings, and adults.

Usage Limitations: Can be performed 3 times every two weeks. Has a sligher higher chance of success than Killing as the dragon is willing to experiment dark magic with you

Experimenting some potions on an hatchie, hatchling, or adult could go wrong and accidentaly will cause it to die. If the dragon isn't resurrected as Zombie it will eventually be removed from your scroll. 

 

Success:

You take a dark potion with dark and lighting mana crystals and warn the dragon on the dangers of it. He agrees to try it, he peacefully falls asleep and .... upon waking up he magically feels incredibly restored.

 

Neutral: 

You take a dark potion with dark and lighting mana crystals and warn the dragon on the dangers of it. He agrees to try it, he peacefully falls asleep and .... upon waking up he doesn't feel any difference.

 

Fail:

You take a dark potion with dark and lighting mana crystals and warn the dragon on the dangers of it. He agrees to try it, he peacefully falls asleep and .... something goes wrong! He never wakes up.

If we're not wanting to change the game too much, this seems like the most tame option as it is basically the kill action with a different name.

I would remove the BSA restoring element though (as the majority of dragons dont have BSAs and they have cooldowns for reasons) and just have the "neutral" option be the equivalent of the current kill fail text and the "fail" option be the current kill success. *and it eliminates any confusion that may surround why it didnt restore either "Summon" BSA*

 

This clearly explains why the Dragon was willing to drink the potion that potentially killed it, removes the feeling of being betrayed if it dies, and eliminates the need to have any sort of flavor text mention of illness (which could confuse newer players learning about this).

 

As for eggs, the only thing different is that 'kill' can force the egg to hatch early. That is also no problem as then its simply:

 

Experimenting fail (kill sucess)

You run an experiment on the egg. However, something went wrong and the egg has broken beyond repair. [Dead egg - also explains why a dead egg can not be revived]

 

Experimenting success 1 (kill force hatching 1)

You run an experiment on the egg. However your experiment causes the egg to hatch. The hatchling tries to run away but you catch it. [You keep the hatchling]

 

Experimenting success 2 (kill force hatching 2)

You run an experiment on the egg. However your experiment causes the egg to hatch. You're so surprised by the result that you failed to notice the hatchling has run away and escaped. [Hatchling lost to the wilderness]

 

And in all cases - the odd and how the "Revive" option gets to stay the same

 

TL/DR: Experimenting is just "Kill" renamed with the darker elements removed. 

Edited September 28, 2020 by ShorahNagi
Clarifications

[Firebirdwyvern]

You have to kill the dragons to get the Zombie adult, but you can imply via description that it died naturally? I have done this for at least one of my zombies and it does not really change much...but hey it gives you a little peace of mind. 

 

But if you don't want either Zombies, Vampires, or even Neglected (it involves potentially killing an egg and mistreatment), then that is cool too.

 

The Dragon Graveyard has me thinking of this thing from Tales of Ostlea, you can dig around for bones and use them to bring to life an undead creature (who certainly is not happy). 

 

Here is my Drake's story.

 

Quote

The bond of the drakes were very strong, which made it hard for the tribe to let Minkshade go. A tragic accident had taken the Tarantula Hawk, but the drakes had heard tale of certain spells that may bring her back. Using the dark magic, Minkshade was brought back to life successfully, but every drake in the tribe were shocked as they took in their former friend and comrade's new appearance. Minkshade was a zombie, and what once made her great was gone now. But some of the drakes hold onto hope that all is not lost in their now undead friend.

 

Edited September 28, 2020 by Firebirdwyvern

[Keileon]

I'm still of the opinion that we don't need new mechanics that imply anything specific. I'd rather just have the kill message be changed to be less charged with guilt-- as I said here:

 

Spoiler

 

On 7/18/2020 at 7:17 PM, Keileon said:

My only problem with the kill action is that the message for success sounds like straight-up murder, but there are no consequences to the player when the dragon dodges. It's like the dragon just goes "lol, can't get me, better luck tomorrow" and isn't concerned with the fact that you just tried to kill it. If one of the two messages was changed, there'd be less of a disconnect between gameplay and roleplay.

 

For example, if the dragon would dodge:

You grab a knife and wait for a chance to kill the dragon, but you never get the opportunity. You'll have to wait for another day.

which would at *least* make it clear you're supposed to wait to try again. Even though it's more inclined towards assassination/murder, it could still very well be that the dragon hasn't worked up its own nerves.

 

But for the purposes of this thread, maybe also changing the death message to be less of a blatant, why-would-you-do-this betrayal, would help empathic players get past the idea of stabbing their dragons. This way they can more readily tell themselves that it wasn't just cold-blooded murder.

You take your knife and stab the dragon, watching the light fade from its eyes as its body goes still.

This is a much more neutral message, which players can reason as whatever kind of kill they want. There's no preloaded implication of anything except that you used a knife to do it.

 

 

Let it be on the player to decide why a dragon dies. There's no need to complicate it with mercy killing or experimenting or whatever. Keep it simple.

[Paintra]

4 hours ago, Keileon said:

I'm still of the opinion that we don't need new mechanics that imply anything specific. I'd rather just have the kill message be changed to be less charged with guilt-- as I said here:

 

  Hide contents

My only problem with the kill action is that the message for success sounds like straight-up murder, but there are no consequences to the player when the dragon dodges. It's like the dragon just goes "lol, can't get me, better luck tomorrow" and isn't concerned with the fact that you just tried to kill it. If one of the two messages was changed, there'd be less of a disconnect between gameplay and roleplay.

 

For example, if the dragon would dodge:

You grab a knife and wait for a chance to kill the dragon, but you never get the opportunity. You'll have to wait for another day.

which would at *least* make it clear you're supposed to wait to try again. Even though it's more inclined towards assassination/murder, it could still very well be that the dragon hasn't worked up its own nerves.

 

But for the purposes of this thread, maybe also changing the death message to be less of a blatant, why-would-you-do-this betrayal, would help empathic players get past the idea of stabbing their dragons. This way they can more readily tell themselves that it wasn't just cold-blooded murder.

You take your knife and stab the dragon, watching the light fade from its eyes as its body goes still.

This is a much more neutral message, which players can reason as whatever kind of kill they want. There's no preloaded implication of anything except that you used a knife to do it.

 

Let it be on the player to decide why a dragon dies. There's no need to complicate it with mercy killing or experimenting or whatever. Keep it simple.

 

Support of this ^^ These are my general thoughts on the matter. The "betrayed it" message is guilt trippy for no particular reason, and frankly I think it's an outdated message from when game mechanics were very different. I think it needs to change regardless of it any other zombie acquisition methods are developed.

[HeatherMarie]

4 hours ago, Keileon said:

I'm still of the opinion that we don't need new mechanics that imply anything specific. I'd rather just have the kill message be changed to be less charged with guilt-- as I said here:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

Let it be on the player to decide why a dragon dies. There's no need to complicate it with mercy killing or experimenting or whatever. Keep it simple.

 

I must say, while I don't personally think anything needs changing to begin with, this sounds much easier and better than adding multiple new mechanics just for the sake of giving the *killing* a 'reason'. This all seems just completely unnecessarily complicated, honestly. You want to make an adult zombie, you must kill an adult. That's a choice you must make. It seems really unnecessary to make up all these new 'reasons' to kill a dragon, just so you don't have to say you killed a dragon. And I *definitely* don't see a good reason to completely change the whole mechanic by allowing you to just use a dragon from the graveyard. (And honestly, if it bothers you to *kill* a dragon, why wouldn't it bother you to rob a grave of an unknown dragon to use it's remains in some spell?)

 

Seriously, keep it simple. If this is so much of an issue, just change the wording on the kill message. You still have to *choose* to kill, that's not going to go away, but the message could be a little tamer. No need for complicated new mechanics.

[purplehaze]

35 minutes ago, HeatherMarie said:

 

I must say, while I don't personally think anything needs changing to begin with, this sounds much easier and better than adding multiple new mechanics just for the sake of giving the *killing* a 'reason'. This all seems just completely unnecessarily complicated, honestly. You want to make an adult zombie, you must kill an adult. That's a choice you must make. It seems really unnecessary to make up all these new 'reasons' to kill a dragon, just so you don't have to say you killed a dragon. And I *definitely* don't see a good reason to completely change the whole mechanic by allowing you to just use a dragon from the graveyard. (And honestly, if it bothers you to *kill* a dragon, why wouldn't it bother you to rob a grave of an unknown dragon to use it's remains in some spell?)

 

Seriously, keep it simple. If this is so much of an issue, just change the wording on the kill message. You still have to *choose* to kill, that's not going to go away, but the message could be a little tamer. No need for complicated new mechanics.

This. Especially the parts I have bolded.

 

[skwerl56767]

   Not coming in here to argue any point, I'm just throwing in my two cents (which are long because I write too much):
   I own no zombie dragons because of my sympathy extending even to tiny, nonliving pixel art creatures. It wins over my completionism. The only reason I have Vampires is because I grabbed them from the Abandoned Pile, but there's no equivalent "second-hand" means like that for zombies. I would like a non-killing method for obtaining zombies to have the best of both worlds, if possible.

   To me, killing is killing. I don't like default "betrayal" mechanic, but I don't like the mercy killing or experimentation ideas either; it's still killing, just disguised to be less accusing of the player. The mechanic I like more is the Graveyard revival (I actually didn't know there was a graveyard page until now), but I also don't want to be going around reviving other players' dragons. Even though it's part of the kill mechanic to slay and revive your own dragon, therefore inheriting that dragon's metadata, I think it'd be simpler and less controversial to have an additional BSA that works like Summon, which generates a new dragon out of nothing; the corpse's location is implied via flavor text, just as it's implied that killing your dragon is you betraying it. I'm thinking of this:

• Make a reaper dragon of sorts, a species where the BSA makes sense, whether it hoards corpses or naturally revives stuff or something along those lines. I also read somewhere in here that if any dragon should have it, it should be the zombies themselves, though that would require at least one successful Kill and Revive to have a zombie in the first place, and there's no lore that I've found that implies zombies can turn other dragons into zombies, via some sort of virus or magic corruption or something. So I'd say, just make a new dragon, especially since the odds of having a DR released seem to have increased.
• Give the dragon a renamed "summon" BSA that, instead of summoning just one kind of dragon, it summons any one of the zombie dragon types. The mechanic already exists, so it shouldn't be hard to implement.
• The BSA's flavor text implies that you/your dragon/both have found a body out in the wilderness (there are wild dragons, plenty of which eat each other or even cannibalize, and who knows what other monsters live in the world of Galsreim that might attack dragons, so not too far-fetched, right?) and try to revive it (no reason given). Then it just says whether you've succeeded or failed in your attempt.
• The summoned zombie is completely random, like a CB. It wouldn't be part of a lineage, nor have a name, nor have belonged to anyone before (you'd still have to kill a dragon for that, so that preserves that mechanic, and the value of preexisting zombie dragons). Its breed type is randomized, so you may have to summon multiple times to get what you want. Age will also be randomized, although hatchlings could be slightly rarer (since for every adult sprite there are two hatchlings), so people have more equal chances of obtaining any sprite.

    In reading the wiki page, the only possible problem I see is that a new CB Undead Dragon would have to be created specifically for the site's internal use, such as in sorting, as zombies will try to sort as their original breeds despite being called Undead. I don't believe it'll impact the rarity of current killed->revived zombies since it would function as a separate dragon, even though on the surface it appears to be the same breed, including responding to Expunge and turning into tombstones during the day. Plus, it may actually be easier to tell the two apart, if the summoned CB zombies sort under Undead while all killed->revived zombies continue sorting as their old breeds.

 

   I'm suggesting this as a Graveyard alternative even though I'm content with my current, non-zombie-populated, "dragon sanctuary" scroll; and that's only because I reckoned that if I really want zombie dragons, I could just make my own. Not everyone is an artist with that opportunity though, and it can have more meaning to actually own the dragons. I should also note that I'm coming at this from a "I want the sprites" perspective; many people like having dragons for their metadata as well (previous species, lineage, progeny, mate, etc.), which this suggestion wouldn't work for. I figured I'd throw it out there though, as food for thought.

 

   A purely flavor-text-change option I'd prefer, if it's the best route: just don't have the Kill action describe you trying to kill the dragon, nor describing what the dragon has died from. That way players can pretend they're just "instigating the natural course of things" (like how some pretend that using the breed action is actually the two dragons finding, meeting, and falling in love on their own), instead of their semi-roleplayed dragon-tamer selves deciding to kill the dragon for any one reason, Mercy, Experiment, or otherwise - players like myself wouldn't use those options, because they still sum up to "You killed your dragon", which doesn't necessarily solve the ethical issue. To fix that, I think the text would have to be written to directly separate the player from the situation. It's sort of like the difference between writing a book and saying "I killed this guy, made these two fall in love, and made this guy go to work", and writing a book that says "Then so-and-so died, and these two fell in love and lived happily ever after, and this guy went to work the next day". The events are the same, but it appears as though you personally didn't cause anything, even though you technically did by writing the words and "making them happen", if that makes any sense? Narration versus instigation.

 

   As some new text suggestions:

   Failure: "You've checked your dragon's health and all seems well."

   Dodge/Neutral: "Your dragon is injured, but appears to be recovering." (Perhaps the site can randomly replace "injured" with other words like "ill"? Or maybe there's a broader, more fitting word.)

   Success is "You've noticed your dragon's health is failing. Eventually, it passes away."

   This would allow the players to interpret the cause of death in any way, including natural causes, without implementing any additional mechanics, and it still allows the player to choose to have the dragon die. It might require a name-change too, since even "Kill" implies that the player is personally slaying the dragon. Maybe Remove Protections, implying that our adult dragons never die because we're protecting them, and add a warning in the Action description that the dragon may die? That would work for me; I have always wondered how Galsreim isn't drowning in dragons, if they're practically immortal and we all have so many. "Let Go" might be a viable option too, though that could be confused with Abandon or Release and just sounds like a sugar-coated version of Kill. I wouldn't call it Checkup or Health Check even though that's what's happening in the flavor text, because it can be easily confused as a "I want to keep my dragons healthy and safe and must check them all the time" mechanic, not a "I would like for this dragon to be dead" mechanic.

 

   Anyway, those are my ideas. Feel free to toy with them.

Edited September 29, 2020 by skwerl56767

[Fuzzbucket]

10 hours ago, Keileon said:

I'm still of the opinion that we don't need new mechanics that imply anything specific. I'd rather just have the kill message be changed to be less charged with guilt-- as I said here:

 

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Let it be on the player to decide why a dragon dies. There's no need to complicate it with mercy killing or experimenting or whatever. Keep it simple.

 

 

6 hours ago, HeatherMarie said:

 

I must say, while I don't personally think anything needs changing to begin with, this sounds much easier and better than adding multiple new mechanics just for the sake of giving the *killing* a 'reason'. This all seems just completely unnecessarily complicated, honestly. You want to make an adult zombie, you must kill an adult. That's a choice you must make. It seems really unnecessary to make up all these new 'reasons' to kill a dragon, just so you don't have to say you killed a dragon. And I *definitely* don't see a good reason to completely change the whole mechanic by allowing you to just use a dragon from the graveyard. (And honestly, if it bothers you to *kill* a dragon, why wouldn't it bother you to rob a grave of an unknown dragon to use it's remains in some spell?)

 

Seriously, keep it simple. If this is so much of an issue, just change the wording on the kill message. You still have to *choose* to kill, that's not going to go away, but the message could be a little tamer. No need for complicated new mechanics.

 

100% behind these posts. If people don't want to kill - fine; don't. And absolutely no way to be able to rob the graveyard. If I killed a dragon I want it to stay dead (unless I did it to get a zombie.) Other players do not get the chance to retrieve my corpses. I'm fine with the guilt trip message - but just change it f people are going to get that upset.... I can't see a change of words making it OK for the sensitive souls here, though !

[DragonLady86]

I really don't understand the idea "I want zombies but I don't want to kill anything". A zombie, by definition is a reanimated corpse. It literally has to be dead first. 

 

Changing the text on kill, sure, if that works for people. But all of this highly complicated methods of pretending you aren't killing a block of pixels is too much.

 

We have a perfectly functional way to obtain them (success rate could be higher but that's a different topic). We do not need a dozen more. Not to mention I'd far rather TJs time go to coding new things that impact more than the small percentage that can't/won't use the one we have because the message is traumatic.

[Naruhina_94]

19 hours ago, ShorahNagi said:

If we're not wanting to change the game too much, this seems like the most tame option as it is basically the kill action with a different name.

I would remove the BSA restoring element though (as the majority of dragons dont have BSAs and they have cooldowns for reasons) and just have the "neutral" option be the equivalent of the current kill fail text and the "fail" option be the current kill success. *and it eliminates any confusion that may surround why it didnt restore either "Summon" BSA*

 

This clearly explains why the Dragon was willing to drink the potion that potentially killed it, removes the feeling of being betrayed if it dies, and eliminates the need to have any sort of flavor text mention of illness (which could confuse newer players learning about this).

 

As for eggs, the only thing different is that 'kill' can force the egg to hatch early. That is also no problem as then its simply:

 

Experimenting fail (kill sucess)

You run an experiment on the egg. However, something went wrong and the egg has broken beyond repair. [Dead egg - also explains why a dead egg can not be revived]

 

Experimenting success 1 (kill force hatching 1)

You run an experiment on the egg. However your experiment causes the egg to hatch. The hatchling tries to run away but you catch it. [You keep the hatchling]

 

Experimenting success 2 (kill force hatching 2)

You run an experiment on the egg. However your experiment causes the egg to hatch. You're so surprised by the result that you failed to notice the hatchling has run away and escaped. [Hatchling lost to the wilderness]

 

And in all cases - the odd and how the "Revive" option gets to stay the same

 

TL/DR: Experimenting is just "Kill" renamed with the darker elements removed. 

 

Added your notes to my post. I agree with all of your points.

Quote

 

 I'm thinking of this:

• Make a reaper dragon of sorts, a species where the BSA makes sense, whether it hoards corpses or naturally revives stuff or something along those lines. I also read somewhere in here that if any dragon should have it, it should be the zombies themselves, though that would require at least one successful Kill and Revive to have a zombie in the first place, and there's no lore that I've found that implies zombies can turn other dragons into zombies, via some sort of virus or magic corruption or something. So I'd say, just make a new dragon, especially since the odds of having a DR released seem to have increased.
• Give the dragon a renamed "summon" BSA that, instead of summoning just one kind of dragon, it summons any one of the zombie dragon types. The mechanic already exists, so it shouldn't be hard to implement.
• The BSA's flavor text implies that you/your dragon/both have found a body out in the wilderness (there are wild dragons, plenty of which eat each other or even cannibalize, and who knows what other monsters live in the world of Galsreim that might attack dragons, so not too far-fetched, right?) and try to revive it (no reason given). Then it just says whether you've succeeded or failed in your attempt.
• The summoned zombie is completely random, like a CB. It wouldn't be part of a lineage, nor have a name, nor have belonged to anyone before (you'd still have to kill a dragon for that, so that preserves that mechanic, and the value of preexisting zombie dragons). Its breed type is randomized, so you may have to summon multiple times to get what you want. Age will also be randomized, although hatchlings could be slightly rarer (since for every adult sprite there are two hatchlings), so people have more equal chances of obtaining any sprite.

   As some new text suggestions:

   Failure: "You've checked your dragon's health and all seems well."

   Dodge/Neutral: "Your dragon is injured, but appears to be recovering." (Perhaps the site can randomly replace "injured" with other words like "ill"? Or maybe there's a broader, more fitting word.)

   Success is "You've noticed your dragon's health is failing. Eventually, it passes away."

   This would allow the players to interpret the cause of death in any way, including natural causes, without implementing any additional mechanics, and it still allows the player to choose to have the dragon die.

 

 

@skwerl56767: yes, that's exaclty how i'm thinking this "summon" would work. Sorry if it isn't clear enough in my post. I don't want to resurrect other's people dragon, just use hte lore of an already existing graveyard page

 

On a side note I'm perfectly fine with simply changing the killing description as Keileon and skwerl56767 said.

 

Afterall to have a zombie you need to have a dead dragon, But dead dragons appear also by natural causes and zombie are never made by just murder, at least that's not the fantasy lore behind them, I guess? Yes, i'm fine with reanimating an anonymous corpse, I find it way less evil than killing a dragon myself to do the same  

 

This whole list of new killing methods was proposed because it seemed that an easy option like renaming the killing action itself wasn't taken into account and rather classifed as usless. The new methods of killing may appear overwhelming if read all togheter, but if one of them is chosen I don't see it as such a big change to the game, on the opposite, it would fresh things up. 

 

Post updated

Edited September 29, 2020 by Naruhina_94

[olympe]

8 hours ago, Fuzzbucket said:

If people don't want to kill - fine; don't. And absolutely no way to be able to rob the graveyard. If I killed a dragon I want it to stay dead (unless I did it to get a zombie.) Other players do not get the chance to retrieve my corpses. I'm fine with the guilt trip message - but just change it f people are going to get that upset.... I can't see a change of words making it OK for the sensitive souls here, though !

Exactly. Killing is bad. So is necromancy. And undead dragons are the result of necromancy (eg. failed reviving) and, well, killing. You need a corpse to revive. You cannot use actions on dragons you don't own. If Killing and zombifying your own dragons doesn't work for you, skip zombies. It's your choice what you're going to do.