Holiday Rereleases

[RecycledHeart]

Yknow, if these CB holidays getting rereleased and the possibility of people exploiting their catching capabilities to skew the holiday market is a forseeable problem that'll make the holiday rereleases more stressful that joyful, why not, you know, disable trading of the rereleased cb halloweens?

 

I mean, if this year's prizes and summoned GoN's can't, I don't see why this can't, too.

 

plus it stops multiscrollers from taking more advantage of skewing the trading market by having a ton

That's actually a pretty good idea. But what about people who depend on others to gift?

[shanique]

That's actually a pretty good idea. But what about people who depend on others to gift?

I won't deny that the idea of being able to gift stuff in the Departures thread is nice. Even I give and take from the thread during holidays.

 

But, if you really want to give it away to just random people? Toss it to the AP for everyone's equal chance to get a CB off the AP. I'm pretty sure that if we have the same CB limits as it is currently, it would be easy for people to get locked with only having 2 CBs of christmas and valentine dragons. I'm not even pushing for limits on Halloweens, just, you know, raise what you catch? Like okay you have a hundred of the past holiday dragon, and while no one's stopping you from getting more, your options are now limited.

 

I understand that people like giving but, it's not like it's anyone's obligation to gift as people expect of them. :v

[RecycledHeart]

Yeah you're right that's it not an obligation but I enjoy gifting.

 

I don't really like tossing stuff into the ap.

 

I guess if we keep the 2 cb limit for Christmas and valentines, everyone could get their fill. But again I have to ask, is it yearly or one time only?

[Fiona]

I think the idea is that we wouldn't change the current limit on cb Christmases and Vals. That is, you are limited to 2 cb of each of those forever. Those limits still held for people getting HM choices and there's no reason to think this would change that either.

 

The debate comes from whether or not we think there needs to be some kind of limit on cb Halloweens. Personally, I haven't seen a particularly convincing argument for limiting them. Fast catchers might leave? Sure. They also might not. We don't have any basis to speculate what an individual person might or might not do. You can't base game design on "maybe". Olympe seems to be basing most of her objections about unlimited Halloweens on one person managing to trade for 100 Desipises. One person managed a whole bunch of one dragon. She also seems to be basing an objection on the fact that Piemaster started this thread and Pie has alt Desipises. There is however no direct correlation between those two facts.

 

I do think Halloweens probably need to drop more often then the Christmas or Valentines breeds because there's a hard cap on how many of each Christmas or Valentine cb you can have, so certainly not rare. Maybe a little more frequent than uncommon. However, most people aren't going to try to fill up on a ton of all of them. The semantics of the juggling and trading needed are too much work.

Edited July 28, 2015 by Fiona BlueFire

[olympe]

I don't base my point on only one person, but on a phenomenon. Many people have more than 7 CBs of a given Halloween dragon, as one can quite easily read when they write about it in some thread or other. I personally saw and counted the scroll with 76 (I think) CB Shadow Walkers. (That was when they were new, so no need to check their lineages. No, they were not alts.) Twice, to make sure I hadn't made a mistake. So, obviously, it's not as much of a "one person" thing, it's a phenomenon that includes many players. That is my main objection. That and knowing how Prizes hurt DC economy before they became much more common. They still have an effect on the trading market. I'm afraid that uncommon CB Halloweens from previous years might do the same. Not to mention cause spite and frustration among the user base. Do we really need that kind of drama?

 

 

I guess if we keep the 2 cb limit for Christmas and valentines, everyone could get their fill. But again I have to ask, is it yearly or one time only?

Since TJ seems to think that "2 extra eggs every year" is too hard to understand for too many of us stupid players, my guess is on "one-time only". (I know TJ didn't post that here. But he did post something along those lines in the thread asking for upping the limits on Christmases and Valentines, where just such a suggestion was favored by many - if not most - users. And I don't think that adding the CB tag to that suggestion is going to simplify it any.)

[RecycledHeart]

Really? Tj doesn't think we're ready for two eggs every year. I'm not sure I can support this suggestion then. What if someone misses out on the christmas time? They'll never have another chance to catch their missing cbs.

 

 

That isn't fair to a lot of people here.

[olympe]

Really? Tj doesn't think we're ready for two eggs every year. I'm not sure I can support this suggestion then. What if someone misses out on the christmas time? They'll never have another chance to catch their missing cbs.

 

 

That isn't fair to a lot of people here.

No, he thinks that too many of us are too stupid to get it. Because "+2 every year" is maths. Simple as that.

[RecycledHeart]

Oh wow. Really? That's so not cool.

I highly doubt anyone is confused by 2+ every year

that's not a legitimate reason to keep it away from the users.

[Fuzzbucket]

No, he thinks that too many of us are too stupid to get it. Because "+2 every year" is maths. Simple as that.

NO - that wasn't it (I was in that thread too.) It was partly to do with the suggestion that not all holidays would qualify (there were suggestions for hollies being excepted as they'd been HMs and stuff) and also the idea that we'd get new members asking why x member had 8 CB - um, say - Sweetlings and they could only have 2 - well, because it was your first year trying for them ! - but given the number of people who STILL ask, for instance, why they haven't their trophy yet, and STILL don't get (even when moving from silver to gold !!!) - that growing things DO NOT COUNT - I can see his point a bit ! It would sharply up the number of baffled people who can't read the FAQs...

[olympe]

It was *snip* and also the idea that we'd get new members asking why x member had 8 CB - um, say - Sweetlings and they could only have 2 - well, because it was your first year trying for them ! - but given the number of people who STILL ask, for instance, why they haven't their trophy yet, and STILL don't get (even when moving from silver to gold !!!) - that growing things DO NOT COUNT - I can see his point a bit ! It would sharply up the number of baffled people who can't read the FAQs...

Which means that too many users are too stupid to get it, doesn't it? My phrasing may be blunt and less than complimentary, but seems to hit the nail on the head.

[cyradis4]

Which means that too many users are too stupid to get it, doesn't it? My phrasing may be blunt and less than complimentary, but seems to hit the nail on the head.

I.... have to agree with Olympe, in context of that discussion TJ's comment deff came across as people are too stupid to understand it, and that there'd be too much confusion in Help. Frankly, I think the mods we have and the userbase in general are Very Good at handling that sort of thing. And when other topics that are likely to cause confusion come up in Suggestions, there've been a couple of mods who responded with phrases like "I'm sure we can handle it".

 

Christmas and Valentines aren't really an issue, I think. Make em uncommon, and it'll still be fine in a year or three because of the set scroll limits for those CBs. Eventually even at uncommon.... everyone will have 2 except the newcomers. Its still Halloweens that really worry me about this suggestion.

 

I just cannot support limiting the Halloweens.... But there is no way that they would NOT destabilize the trading market if they were uncommon. They'd have to be common (NOT blocker, but still common) to keep from being used as fodder. And it would still cause a lot of attention to be on them, and undoubtedly TJ would decrease multi-clutches which would have a very negative effect on the AP.

 

I think, I think I can support having the new Holidays drop on the 3rd day (for Valentines and Christmas), and a new day 2 for the Halloweens. For Halloween, that makes people choose between new Halloweens or old ones, and won't lock out the Biomes for a whole week. Remember, there are people who don't like Holiday hunting and having the AP and the Biomes taken over for 1 week solid for each Holiday would upset a LOT of people.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[Bison]

I'm in full support of allowing CB holidays to drop so everyone has a chance to get their 2 of Valentine's/Christmas and fill of unlimited Halloweens. I don't mind multiclutching taking a hit because for me the tradeoff is very worth it. Instead of having to spend hours in the AP hoping I catch nice lineages I can continue I'd be able to just make my own. I'd make any sacrifice for CB Sweetling, Yulebuck, and Pumpkin pairs. Don't even get me started on CB Halloweens I was actually here for and caught... I never cared for/understood lineages so I froze most of my CB hatchlings! I may have a small chunk but they're useless, just sitting there taunting me.

 

There's so much I can't do because I don't have those CBs and its really frustrating. Before I got into the forums and was exposed to lineages it didn't matter to me because I just wanted to have the pretty sprites. But now I want to work hard carefully crafting specific lineages with specific names, partners, etc but I literally can't no matter what I do. Even rare CBs like Golds, Silvers, Coppers, etc can be gotten with enough patience/skill/luck or just from trading. CB Holidays? Completely impossible. That's not fun in any way.

[Tehya Faye]

Only if they're gone before being able to catch re-released holidays. But who says that someone doesn't catch them first and leave later?

This suggestion exists because year by year we are losing players for good. These individuals might be around to snag a few extra old holidays before they grow disinterested and leave, but once they're gone they won't be getting anything else. The re-released holidays that drop after they've left will go to other people.

[olympe]

Oh, really? I never would have guessed! /sarcasm

 

I still think that unlimited re-releases Halloweens as an uncommon drop are a bad idea.

[Tehya Faye]

If it was so obvious then why did you reply to my statement like that? I certainly thought it was obvious, but your comment didn't make any sense otherwise. No need for you to be rude.

 

I don't particularly care whether Holiday releases are common or uncommon. The point isn't to make them available to me, it's just to get them out there period. It'd be nice if I could get them (and honestly I probably would), but I don't think that's what this suggestion is going for. It's fine to be opposed to that, and it's important to discuss the ramifications, but I don't think this was ever meant to give old holidays to most people.

Edited July 28, 2015 by Tehya Faye

[RecycledHeart]

If having Halloween drops being uncommon is such an issue then just make them almost blocker common.

 

This suggestion yeah is more really to get the old holidays out there than making sure every user has an equal, fair chance to get them I have to agree.

[grimace]

Personally I think people on here massively overthink negative possibilities.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Why not try unlimited Halloween releases for the first year and then if it generates negativity due to hogging it can be dropped to a limit of four per breed each year? Four CBs of each of our many Halloweens per year is still a LOT and over time will add up to plenty anyway. I also think if they're going to be uncommon they should be like, only very mildly so (like blacks, stripes, sunsongs and such).

 

[cyradis4]

I don't particularly care whether Holiday releases are common or uncommon. The point isn't to make them available to me, it's just to get them out there period. It'd be nice if I could get them (and honestly I probably would), but I don't think that's what this suggestion is going for. It's fine to be opposed to that, and it's important to discuss the ramifications, but I don't think this was ever meant to give old holidays to most people.

The problem with this suggestion is:

 

The Trade Market

Yes, DC is about more than the trade market... But you have to take that into consideration. Not taking it into consideration is what led to the mess with CB Prizes, which is only starting to ease with the release of 600 CBs. An extremely small initial release of a dragon that breeds poorly led to extreme demand and extreme scarcity. Hollies too, but to a much smaller extent.

 

With Valentine and Christmas dragons, the scroll limits mean that in a couple of years, everyone will be at their limit of 2 so the trade market stabilizes. Granted, for Hollies, Yulebucks, and Val 09s, things will be Mighty Interesting for a couple of years and trying to get CB metals around the Holidays will be a fools errand, but anyone willing to wait will get them in the end because each person can have just TWO CB Hollies. Once you have 2, you are out of the CB Holly trading market.

 

But with Halloweens, there would be no limit. Maybe people would reach their goals and stop hunting them quickly.... But maybe they wouldn't. And I'm betting on wouldn't. Black Marrows are one of the best / most loved sprites in the game.... And they are an old Halloween from before scroll limits went up to 7 for a Gold Trophy. They will be hoarded / used as massive trade fodder.... IF they drop as uncommons.

 

So my thing isn't "everyone needs one", its "if getting one is super hard it will destabilize the trade market.... just as its recovering". And that's what I oppose.

 

Cheers!

C4.

 

[RecycledHeart]

Unlimited for a year? Part of me doesn't want to risk it but can't say why.

 

So I guess I'm in support of trying that.

[NotBambi]

The problem with this suggestion is:

 

The Trade Market

Yes, DC is about more than the trade market... But you have to take that into consideration. Not taking it into consideration is what led to the mess with CB Prizes, which is only starting to ease with the release of 600 CBs. An extremely small initial release of a dragon that breeds poorly led to extreme demand and extreme scarcity. Hollies too, but to a much smaller extent.

 

With Valentine and Christmas dragons, the scroll limits mean that in a couple of years, everyone will be at their limit of 2 so the trade market stabilizes. Granted, for Hollies, Yulebucks, and Val 09s, things will be Mighty Interesting for a couple of years and trying to get CB metals around the Holidays will be a fools errand, but anyone willing to wait will get them in the end because each person can have just TWO CB Hollies. Once you have 2, you are out of the CB Holly trading market.

 

But with Halloweens, there would be no limit. Maybe people would reach their goals and stop hunting them quickly.... But maybe they wouldn't. And I'm betting on wouldn't. Black Marrows are one of the best / most loved sprites in the game.... And they are an old Halloween from before scroll limits went up to 7 for a Gold Trophy. They will be hoarded / used as massive trade fodder.... IF they drop as uncommons.

 

So my thing isn't "everyone needs one", its "if getting one is super hard it will destabilize the trade market.... just as its recovering". And that's what I oppose.

 

Cheers!

C4.

So... if the Halloweens could be abandoned but not traded, would that be ok?

[cyradis4]

So... if the Halloweens could be abandoned but not traded, would that be ok?

While that would keep the trade market out of it, you'd have to do the same to Valentines and Christmas. TJ has said quite often that he dislikes exceptions.

 

I'm not sure if I have any objection to it, just saying it'd have to apply to all the re-releases.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[NotBambi]

While that would keep the trade market out of it, you'd have to do the same to Valentines and Christmas. TJ has said quite often that he dislikes exceptions.

 

I'm not sure if I have any objection to it, just saying it'd have to apply to all the re-releases.

 

Cheers!

C4.

Understood. But they were already different from the Holidays, having no cap... Sigh. I just wish that a compromise was possible. Maybe a degree of uncommon that would still be possible for everybody to catch. Maybe like Trios?

I like ADP's idea of trying for one year and figure out how things go. I think many of us are being too pessimistic

[Tehya Faye]

The problem with this suggestion is:

 

The Trade Market

Yes, DC is about more than the trade market... But you have to take that into consideration. Not taking it into consideration is what led to the mess with CB Prizes, which is only starting to ease with the release of 600 CBs. An extremely small initial release of a dragon that breeds poorly led to extreme demand and extreme scarcity. Hollies too, but to a much smaller extent.

 

With Valentine and Christmas dragons, the scroll limits mean that in a couple of years, everyone will be at their limit of 2 so the trade market stabilizes. Granted, for Hollies, Yulebucks, and Val 09s, things will be Mighty Interesting for a couple of years and trying to get CB metals around the Holidays will be a fools errand, but anyone willing to wait will get them in the end because each person can have just TWO CB Hollies. Once you have 2, you are out of the CB Holly trading market.

 

But with Halloweens, there would be no limit. Maybe people would reach their goals and stop hunting them quickly.... But maybe they wouldn't. And I'm betting on wouldn't. Black Marrows are one of the best / most loved sprites in the game.... And they are an old Halloween from before scroll limits went up to 7 for a Gold Trophy. They will be hoarded / used as massive trade fodder.... IF they drop as uncommons.

 

So my thing isn't "everyone needs one", its "if getting one is super hard it will destabilize the trade market.... just as its recovering". And that's what I oppose.

 

Cheers!

C4.

Let me preface this with a bit of context: I am not a trader. I understand the scarcity issue with prizes, but beyond that I really don't know what goes on in that forum, especially during the holidays. I've only been here Halloween & Christmas '14 and Valentine's '15, and even Christmas I almost missed out on entirely. Thank goodness for 3 day drops.

 

What exactly would happen to the long term trade market if old CB Halloweens were dropped during their week?

 

Obviously the popular old holidays will be very hard to catch. The suggestion doesn't consider that to be a problem, however. CB Metals that drop during the week will definitely be traded for those old holiday eggs, so during the week they'll be highly sought after and fuel the old CB holiday egg craze. The holiday week will have some pretty fierce competition, quite possibly to the detriment of the bred holiday wall, though TJ did say that multiclutches would either go away or be lowered if this were put in place, so that wall is probably a lot less massive.

 

However, beyond the holiday week would the trade market continue to be destabilized? IOU trading isn't allowed to be publicly posted, so potential for the Halloween craze to continue would be somewhat limited, wouldn't it? Wouldn't the main craze start in October to late-September, and die out soon after that? Is the problem in the trade destabilization during that week rather than the year round affects? Again, I'm not a trader so I don't feel confident making any calls on this. I just wanted to reason it out and try to see what the long term effects would be.

 

As a side note I'm also cool with limited re-released Halloween CBs. It'd definitely make it easier for most people to get them, and that'd be pretty cool. It's not really the intent of this suggestion, but it'd take the potential frustration down a notch, and holidays are meant to be fun.

[Jazeki]

I suggested a Halloween limit of 7 additional CB dragons per year per scroll somewhere earlier, but I would be okay if the limits stayed unlimited. I also would be fine with making re-released CBs non-tradeable. But, the trade market will do what it's going to do during Halloween releases regardless of what happens.

 

Right now, people can get their 70+ holidays and it doesn't affect anyone or the market too badly. As with all holiday trading, it lasts for at most a month past the initial breeding and release and then that's it until the next holiday or next year. I'm pretty sure there's not any way to know who has that many CBs either unless you go on a scroll hunt or someone advertises that they are hoarding CBs. Many people also arrange trades months in advance. Just take a look at a number of signatures that say "trading x for y 2015 Halloween hatchies." So, it isn't like one person is spending the entire release grabbing and hatching 70ish Halloween dragons for their personal scroll scroll. Other people contribute to those hoards.

 

I admit I am a bit jealous of people who end up with anything more than seven (though I got my first larger "set" this past Halloween by making trading arrangements in advance and picking up things from the departure thread), but in the end, other people's hoards don't affect me one way or another.

 

Also, it's important to remember that the cave will continue to spawn eggs even if they are uncommon. The cave will not run dry and, if older CB holidays are tradeable, not everyone will ask for an arm and a leg in exchange for one. The nature of the game is to collect and many people are also generous enough to gift CBs or lineaged offspring to those who miss out or are not fast enough to catch.

 

Continually focusing on negatives will only serve to have this thread closed or just sit without ever giving anyone a chance at getting old CB holidays again.

 

("You" is general here.)