Holiday Rereleases

[zaverxi]

Oh yeah good idea to bump this.

 

Personally I think this one is a better solution than for wild dragons to breed 2nd gens, or whatever. Having CBs drop would enable those who didn't get any the first time to get them.

 

And if someone already has 2 CBs on their scroll, they can't get more, that'd cut down on those with fast reflexes, internets, and such from hoarding them and/or exploiting the trade market.

 

It'd be the same process as getting a Leetle tree. Those who have one already can't get another, while those who don't have one will be thrilled!

 

And if there's any older people who missed a certain year, well, it'd give them a chance too. I stupidly froze one of my CB arsanis before it was announced we could have more, and I regret this immensely.

 

I also missed hollies and WWs, and was only able to catch one Valentine '09 and CB vampire. The vampire annoyed me so much because it was before BSAs and I really really wanted a male, but got female.

 

The only people I can see this upsetting are those who requested hollies and the like as HMs for the raffles. They 'earned' their prize after all.

[silver_tiger]

Ah, now that I see this I think it is a much better solution. I definitely want Hollies, but more than that I would like more Desipis dragons, since I was a fool and missed the drop. I only have two thanks to the kindness of some people who saw me begging for an egg, and I feel bad I have so few when I usually try to fill up on Halloween dragons. Also, I would love love *love* to get all the Christmas and Valentine dragons that I wasn't around to grab when they dropped.

 

Love this idea! Though I am torn about adding limits to Halloween. On the one hand that will keep things less crazy, but on the other it seems... inconsistent to add limits to some breeds and not others. Idk.

[CNR4806]

Don't I recall spriter opposition to this?

 

While I don't bow to spriters like they're gods of DC, it isn't all that common for TJ to force things through against their opinion. And if this is going in the direction of re-releasing some while not releasing those blocked by spriter opposition, we may as well not re-release any of them.

[Fiona]

There was spriter opposition to other ideas for rerelease in the past. No spriters that I know of have objected to the particulars of this idea. I was one of the artists who objected in the past. I'm not completely sure of this idea but am keeping an open mind.

 

One thing I don't particularly care for is the idea of limiting Halloweens allowed. There is already a natural limit imposed by scroll limits. People have to juggle what they raise now. Yes, they can trade for added CBs of various breeds if they want, but they have to A. Have the room for the hatchlings. B. Have the trade fodder that will induce someone to trade their CBs. C. Choose those instead of something else, including possibly the new dragon for the year. If that's what they want to do with their slots, that's their choice.

[olympe]

One thing I don't particularly care for is the idea of limiting Halloweens allowed. There is already a natural limit imposed by scroll limits. People have to juggle what they raise now. Yes, they can trade for added CBs of various breeds if they want, but they have to A. Have the room for the hatchlings. B. Have the trade fodder that will induce someone to trade their CBs. C. Choose those instead of something else, including possibly the new dragon for the year. If that's what they want to do with their slots, that's their choice.

Personally, I don't think limiting Halloweens in the year of the release is necessary. But after that - well...

 

If you don't limit old Halloweens in some way or other, the fast catchers (who usually have all the necessary trade fodder, too!) will not only catch the cave empty (of the supposedly uncommon old holidays), but trade for even more of those precious old CBs. Which means that newer players or older players without their full allot of that breed who happen to be not among the fastest and richest (in the form of rare dragons) will end empty-handed.

 

 

If the purpose of this suggestion is to make old CB holidays available to people who don't have them yet - or at least not their full allot of maybe 8 Halloweens (which is current maximum scroll limits + 1) - then I'm all for it. If, however, the idea behind it is to make those who already have countless CBs of one breed get even more - sorry, no. That I cannot support. Considering where the suggestion comes from, I'm afraid that someone merely wants to hoard hundreds of their own spriter's alts, preferably CBs.

Edited July 26, 2015 by olympe

[Fiona]

I rather think that's an unfair judgement, olympe. First of all, what makes you think any of the new ones would become spriters' alts? It isn't automatic. If this suggestion were to be implemented I would indeed want to catch more shadow walkers. BUT! even if I asked I would expect TJ to say 'no way' on turning them into alts. We got our alts when they were released, as our reward for doing the holiday dragon. I don't think turning re-released sprites into alts would be wise or fair.

 

The reason I want more shadow walkers isn't to have more alts, it's because I love the breed I concepted and helped sprite. I haven't asked any of the other sprite artists their view on this, but I would expect a similar viewpoint. It isn't about the alts. It's about having our creation on the site for everyone to enjoy. It's about enjoying it ourselves.

 

Yes, fast catchers could and probably would be able to have more of the Halloweens than slower catchers or those who don't have as many high demand eggs to trade. That's the nature of the game. I also know the generous spirit of many of those fast catchers. The only dragon in a re-release that I anticipate being that hard to get is Hollies. Those are going to be the big ticket draws and everyone would be limited to two cb.

[VixenDra]

I'm definitely for CB holiday re-releases.

Especially as I play the game only long enough to have witnessed and participated in just 2 holiday rounds.

[Ha-Ki]

As much as I'd like to fill up on older cb holidays I missed - DC never made a difference between a cb, bred, nicely-lineaged, messy or inbred dragon. A dragon is a dragon, and anything else is user-created. So I don't really see a valid reason why we need this.

[RecycledHeart]

As much as I'd like to fill up on older cb holidays I missed - DC never made a difference between a cb, bred, nicely-lineaged, messy or inbred dragon. A dragon is a dragon, and anything else is user-created. So I don't really see a valid reason why we need this.

But users make the difference. Cb holidays are used in lots of lineages and say someone joins up today. They have missed all the holiday releases so far. They would never be able to get Cbs of them putting them at a disadvantage. They wouldn't be able to start lineages with holidays nor continue a lineage that involves holidays. So how is this site supposed to attract new players? And keep them?

 

We have to give ground somewhere. I think releasing past Cb holidays is a good way to do that.

[olympe]

But users make the difference. Cb holidays are used in lots of lineages and say someone joins up today. They have missed all the holiday releases so far. They would never be able to get Cbs of them putting them at a disadvantage. They wouldn't be able to start lineages with holidays nor continue a lineage that involves holidays. So how is this site supposed to attract new players? And keep them?

 

We have to give ground somewhere. I think releasing past Cb holidays is a good way to do that.

That's the situation most of us faced when we started playing here.

 

When I started (and had read through various forums), I knew for a fact that I'd never be able to get a CB holly, a CB yule, a CB Val '09 or a true CB vamp, not to mention a bright pink. (And, since I didn't manage to grab a pumpkin during the release, stupidly thinking I could pick them up later on, I need to add them to the list.) You know what? I decided to deal with it. I did. I still do. I'm fine.

 

Of course, over the years, there were many new holiday dragons released, which kind of make up for the ones I don't have. And, personally, I don't care that much any more about the things I cannot have. I can have beautifully lineaged dragons of those breeds, with the exception of hollies -which are hard to catch. (I do have some, but most people wouldn't consider their lineages beautiful. I still love them, though. )

 

In a couple of years, you'll be in the same position I am: A long-time player who has a lot of CB holidays that new players don't have. And guess what? It's not that much of an advantage because there are a lot of other players who have those holidays. And most of them are generous enough to breed theirs for free if you need some 2nd gens. Some people even breed them for others during the holiday season. Having those old CB holidays (with the exception of hollies) isn't much of an advantage, so you can hardly argue with that.

 

 

However, there are other, much better reasons for adding fresh blood to the breeding pool, as well as reasons against it.

[NotBambi]

That's not at all the point of this suggestion. This isn't about making CBs available to new players--though it certainly does. It's about keeping CBs in circulation so that lower gen holidays are still produced. As older players retire from the game, 2nd gens, 3rd gens, etc. become harder and harder to come by. It's an issue that is going to have to be addressed one way or another eventually. That's why I made this suggestion--it fights that issue without just handing the CBs to anyone who missed the release.

I think that can be useful to quote PieMaster here

[pederino]

[...]It's not that much of an advantage because there are a lot of other players who have those holidays. And most of them are generous enough to breed theirs for free if you need some 2nd gens. Some people even breed them for others during the holiday season.

 

[...]

I am sorry if my comment deviates from the main topic but, how is not a disadvantage the fact that you have to rely on someone else to fulfill a goal? Wouldnt that be a disadvantage, since you need him/her to do something you might wanna do? And if theres no one to help you, would you just give up on your goal, because no one could/wanted to help you?

As PieMaster said, people with CB are leaving the site, and theres less and less production of 2nd gen, sooner or later, there would not be many that could gift those 2nd gen, and in some cases 3rd gens with certain lineages (specially with new releases), and the 2nd gen holidays will be even more scarce than 2nd gen prizes.

I think this is a very good idea to alleviate the above issues, the only problem I see is with halloweens, they would have to drop like commons for everyone to catch one, or have a yearly cap, for example, each year you cannot grab and trade for more than 4 CBs of each species. You can still get as many as you want, but no more then 4 each year. NOTE: the 4 of each is just an example, it could be more or less, and it can be globally, making it 10 of any species.

[olympe]

I think that can be useful to quote PieMaster here

I'm quite aware of PieMaster's intentions for this suggestion. I was merely pointing out in which kind of scenario I'd support this - and in which I don't. Right now, the issue of unlimited Halloweens is a point I find highly objectionable for a re-release due to the resulting greed fest.

 

I am sorry if my comment deviates from the main topic but, how is not a disadvantage the fact that you have to rely on someone else to fulfill a goal? Wouldnt that be a disadvantage, since you need him/her to do something you might wanna do? And if theres no one to help you, would you just give up on your goal, because no one could/wanted to help you?

It depends on what goals you have. Getting any kind of holiday dragon for your scroll? No problem, just stalk the AP. Even hollies are manageable, although they are the hardest of the lot. Getting 2nd gens of every holiday breed? Not a problem, but it takes quite some effort. Getting a female holly x male gold shimmer egg? That'd be impossible to accomplish anyway, with or without new CB hollies. Creating checkerboard lineages with holidays you don't have? Possible. It takes quite some effort and stalking of trading and bragging threads, but it's possible. I'm going to reach 6th gen after next Valentine's Day for a checker that I started with only one 2nd gen. It will most likely take you longer to get there than if you had the CBs to help yourself out, but it's still very much within the realm of the possible.

 

It's very true that there will always be people who leave the site, meaning that a number of CB holidays will not be bred any more. But how does giving the same people who might leave the site even more CBs from a later re-release help?

[Tehya Faye]

Well, if they're gone from the site they won't get the new re-released CB holidays. They'll go to people who are more likely to be there next year.

Edited July 27, 2015 by Tehya Faye

[Jazeki]

 

It's very true that there will always be people who leave the site, meaning that a number of CB holidays will not be bred any more. But how does giving the same people who might leave the site even more CBs from a later re-release help?

Conversely, how does allowing people access to additional CBs hurt anyone regardless of whether they plan to leave the site or not?

[SullenCat]

If you don't limit old Halloweens in some way or other, the fast catchers (who usually have all the necessary trade fodder, too!) will not only catch the cave empty (of the supposedly uncommon old holidays), but trade for even more of those precious old CBs. Which means that newer players or older players without their full allot of that breed who happen to be not among the fastest and richest (in the form of rare dragons) will end empty-handed.

I browsed the News about several Halloweens releases. It would not seem that there was any riot about not catching enough Halloweens. Why should a re-release be any different? Considering that there's a limit to the number of eggs that can be caught and everybody, even the fast catchers, would be hunting for several year-specific Halloweens, a re-release, on itself, should limit the number of CBs that anybody can catch to a reasonable amount. Quite lower than the amounts during the original release

Considering where the suggestion comes from, I'm afraid that someone merely wants to hoard hundreds of their own spriter's alts, preferably CBs.

That was really uncalled for.

Conversely, how does allowing people access to additional CBs hurt anyone regardless of whether they plan to leave the site or not?

Good question. I would love to read a good answer to thia.

[Nerei]

That's the situation most of us faced when we started playing here.

 

When I started (and had read through various forums), I knew for a fact that I'd never be able to get a CB holly, a CB yule, a CB Val '09 or a true CB vamp, not to mention a bright pink. (And, since I didn't manage to grab a pumpkin during the release, stupidly thinking I could pick them up later on, I need to add them to the list.) You know what? I decided to deal with it. I did. I still do. I'm fine.

You faced it, we faced it. If holidays were re-released, that would fix this, right? This is just a game. Of course you'll be fine if you don't get a CB holiday. But that doesn't mean you can't want it.

 

Of course, over the years, there were many new holiday dragons released, which kind of make up for the ones I don't have. And, personally, I don't care that much any more about the things I cannot have. I can have beautifully lineaged dragons of those breeds, with the exception of hollies -which are hard to catch. (I do have some, but most people wouldn't consider their lineages beautiful. I still love them, though. )

 

If you personally don't care yourself, why are you against this suggestion?

 

In a couple of years, you'll be in the same position I am: A long-time player who has a lot of CB holidays that new players don't have. And guess what? It's not that much of an advantage because there are a lot of other players who have those holidays. And most of them are generous enough to breed theirs for free if you need some 2nd gens. Some people even breed them for others during the holiday season. Having those old CB holidays (with the exception of hollies) isn't much of an advantage, so you can hardly argue with that.

 

We are not looking for an "advantage". We're all looking for a way to improve the game for us. Eventually, people who breed old holidays will run out of dragons to use in their lineages, if they want to avoid inbreeding.

 

However, there are other, much better reasons for adding fresh blood to the breeding pool, as well as reasons against it.

 

I don't see reasons people would be against fresh blood, unless they were trying to use their own dragons as a status symbol or so that they could seek rares for the offspring.

[RecycledHeart]

^This

 

I see no reason to be against besides as a status symbol.

 

Just because we dealt with missing holidays doesn't mean we have to force newer players to go through it as well.

 

 

[Tawanda001]

Considering where the suggestion comes from, I'm afraid that someone merely wants to hoard hundreds of their own spriter's alts, preferably CBs.

I totally missed that, but even so what would that hurt? And if it meant that lots of 3g alt lineages were bred for trade, even better.

(and if they want to get 'rich' from it they would be better off with a smaller amount of alts being bred, not a larger amount, so it's really a moot point IMO)

[olympe]

Well, if they're gone from the site they won't get the new re-released CB holidays. They'll go to people who are more likely to be there next year.

Only if they're gone before being able to catch re-released holidays. But who says that someone doesn't catch them first and leave later?

 

Conversely, how does allowing people access to additional CBs hurt anyone regardless of whether they plan to leave the site or not?

Adding limitless re-released Halloweens as an uncommon to rare drop will most likely have a similar effect on the trading market as CB prizes. What do you think those players who don't manage to get one will feel like during up to two weeks that happens?

 

I browsed the News about several Halloweens releases. It would not seem that there was any riot about not catching enough Halloweens. Why should a re-release be any different? Considering that there's a limit to the number of eggs that can be caught and everybody, even the fast catchers, would be hunting for several year-specific Halloweens, a re-release, on itself, should limit the number of CBs that anybody can catch to a reasonable amount. Quite lower than the amounts during the original release

Simple. Holiday releases tend to drop like commons, not to say blockers, during their release. Which is a good thing, especially on Halloween. If you read this suggestion carefully, you'll see that re-released holidays are supposed to drop as uncommons, maybe even rares. So, where is the difference in catching a Magelight Pygmy and catching any kind of Xenowyrm? Right, the Magelight Pygmy is very easy to get, while the Xenos - do they still exist in the cave? And it doesn't even help that there are 6 different kinds of Xenowyrms in the cave, they're still hard to find and even harder to catch. Also, don't forget that, despite being limited to 7 eggs, people manage to raise over 70 CB Shadow Walkers or - and this number is one I was told but didn't check - over 100 CB Desipis?

 

You faced it, we faced it. If holidays were re-released, that would fix this, right? This is just a game. Of course you'll be fine if you don't get a CB holiday. But that doesn't mean you can't want it.

Don't fix it if it ain't broken. Think of the consequences before "fixing" things.

 

If you personally don't care yourself, why are you against this suggestion?

I don't care much about the CB holidays I don't have. That doesn't mean I have to like getting a re-release, does it?

 

But this suggestion isn't only to make old CBs available to the general public for lineage purposes. It's about making them available to a select few with super connections and/or great trading fodder, at least for Halloweens. And there's also been talk about upping the limits on CB Vals and CB Xmases.

 

We are not looking for an "advantage". We're all looking for a way to improve the game for us. Eventually, people who breed old holidays will run out of dragons to use in their lineages, if they want to avoid inbreeding.

As far as I know, the only holiday dragon that ever ran the risk of going extinct was the Holly, with (I think) 109 hollies on active scrolls in 2008 or 2009. Note that not all of those were CB. If you're looking for 2nd gens from old holidays, try this thread.

 

don't see reasons people would be against fresh blood, unless they were trying to use their own dragons as a status symbol or so that they could seek rares for the offspring.

Nah, not really. PM me what you need, and I'll breed it if I can. For free. (Btw, the thread linked above was my idea. Not really a "give me all your metals for a 2nd gen" suggestion, is it?

[Ruby Eyes]

That thread, unfortunately, doesn't serve 2nd gen metals (and we won't change that rule for obvious reasons).

However, if only I had that blasted CB Sweetling (I was even *there* for those, I just didn't understand holiday drops back then), I could breed that Silver I need all by myself.

 

It's not always about not having been there. Sometimes, it's only about lack of information (like the info that I don't need to freeze a CB Rosebud because bred Rosebuds would become unlimited later *grumbles*)

[RecycledHeart]

Yeah, I also froze cb holidays because I had no idea bred ones would become available later on. Do you know how much that makes me want to scream? (Seriously let unfreeze happen please)

 

Personally I don't care if someone catches a holiday and then leaves. That's still no reason to treat them with less respect and fairness then those who stay, because there's always a chance they'll come back.

 

And the rerelease won't be limitless. There's the scroll limits in place as well as the 5 hour cooldown. And everyone will have a chance to get some for multiple days. And I am one of these people that actually gifts rares like cb silvers in the departures thread. So most likely there will be people gifting these cbs to people who are having trouble catching them.

 

People only manage to raise 70-100 Halloweens by trading and ious.

 

I do consider it broken and requires a simple solution. Preferably this solution.

 

And this isn't for making the top players only able to catch this stuff. I think you're becoming a little offensive to pie with all this assuming that he wants more cb alts and stuff.

 

Hollies won't be the only ones to run the danger of being extinct as more and more older players leave the site. What do we do when there's only 5 active scrolls with cb rosebuds or cb shadow walkers? Because sooner or later it's going to happen. No one can play this game forever.

[olympe]

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for a re-release - as long as it benefits as many people as possible. But feeding the same people who already have 76 CBs of one Halloween breed isn't the way to go. I know that 70-100 is done through trading for hatchlings, no kidding. But who says that won't happen with re-released holidays, too? After all, the original release had the very same limits as the re-release is supposed to have, only that the original release had a flood of easy to catch dragons, while the re-release is supposed to drop them as "uncommons".

 

This will only serve to create a very volatile atmosphere, with a lot of heartbreak on the side of the loosers and a lot of hoarding more of the same by the people who can afford it. IMHO, this kind of unlimited, but uncommon re-release would break the system. That's why I want limits for re-released Halloweens as well as keeping the current limits for re-released old holidays.

[RecycledHeart]

I get what you mean. But with scroll limits how should it work? 4 per scroll? 7 per scroll?

 

 

And would it be yearly or one time only?

[shanique]

Yknow, if these CB holidays getting rereleased and the possibility of people exploiting their catching capabilities to skew the holiday market is a forseeable problem that'll make the holiday rereleases more stressful that joyful, why not, you know, disable trading of the rereleased cb halloweens?

 

I mean, if this year's prizes and summoned GoN's can't, I don't see why this can't, too.

 

plus it stops multiscrollers from taking more advantage of skewing the trading market by having a ton