More retired/limited breeds

[Fiona]

There already exists a thread discussing migration: here.

 

Not sure I like the idea of having them migrate by elemental affiliation, since that would mean part of the year we'd have all the fire/etc. dragons, part of the year we'd have all the water dragons, etc. Plus I don't think they're evenly spread among the elements.

[MedievalMystic]

I wouldn't really be affected if any of the dragons were pulled because I have every sprite now (and many of them CB), but many others would miss out.

 

If someone, anyone, starts a game years after it's conception, they've already missed out on quite a bit. That's the way of every single game I'm on. I don't feel sorry for them and I don't feel sorry for myself if it's me that started a game way late. That's just the way it is and I don't see anyone complaining about it on other sites. If some rare thing or whatever comes out at the beginning of a games existence, then 3-4 years later someone starts the game, how can they even think of complaining because they missed it? Doesn't make sense to me. Expecting to get and have every single thing from every single year, not to mention expecting a site owner to keep it all around 'just in case' someone decides to join years down the line, seems really unreasonable and overly demanding...and flat out ridiculous... to me.

 

Honestly? I think dragons, at least common dragons, should be kept around for about 2-3 years max. Then retire them. They could still breed, but couldn't be caught in the cave.

 

'New cave blockers' would be the result? Only for a couple years. Then good bye and good riddance.

 

Sorry, that's just how I wish it was. I don't even bother to hunt anymore unless it's a release. What's the point? I have no patience sitting here staring at the same old for hours on end trying to snag ONE uncommon or rare. *shrug* Maybe some people do, but not me.

Edited October 15, 2014 by MedievalMystic

[Jazeki]

If someone, anyone, starts a game years after it's conception, they've already missed out on quite a bit. That's the way of every single game I'm on. I don't feel sorry for them and I don't feel sorry for myself if it's me that started a game way late. That's just the way it is and I don't see anyone complaining about it on other sites. If some rare thing or whatever comes out at the beginning of a games existence, then 3-4 years later someone starts the game, how can they even think of complaining because they missed it? Doesn't make sense to me. Expecting to get and have every single thing from every single year, not to mention expecting a site owner to keep it all around 'just in case' someone decides to join years down the line, seems really unreasonable and overly demanding...and flat out ridiculous... to me.

 

Honestly? I think dragons, at least common dragons, should be kept around for about 2-3 years max. Then retire them. They could still breed, but couldn't be caught in the cave.

 

'New cave blockers' would be the result? Only for a couple years. Then good bye and good riddance.

 

Sorry, that's just how I wish it was. I don't even bother to hunt anymore unless it's a release. What's the point? I have no patience sitting here staring at the same old for hours on end trying to snag ONE uncommon or rare. *shrug* Maybe some people do, but not me.

I'm not feeling sorry for anyone who doesn't have their dragons and I don't expect you or anyone else to. Also just because you may see complaining doesn't mean that it's not there. If a person joins a few years or many years after a game's initial creation, they can complain about a missing a rare for myriad reasons. For example, there are some games that have certain registration seasons and you can't get anything unless the site accepts you as a member. Whatever the reason, they're within their right to complain.

 

It isn't all that unreasonable to expect to catch/have/collect everything if you are given the option to do so within the scope of the game play. The way that DC is set up, it seems like new users are right to want/expect that they should be able to collect everything outside of already retired breeds.

 

Really, if the idea of retiring in a cyclical fashion is going to be introduced, rares should be on that chopping block too and all retired dragons should be completely retired out of circulation. I don't support retiring, but picking and choosing from only commons to weed them out in an effort to get more uncommons and rares certainly isn't the way to go.

[MedievalMystic]

I don't support retiring, but picking and choosing from only commons to weed them out in an effort to get more uncommons and rares certainly isn't the way to go.

 

The rares/uncommons aren't the problem. They aren't clogging up the cave. Commons are.

 

And yeah, people have a 'right' to complain about anything and everything, I suppose.

 

But whatever. These are all just opinions and I'm not going to argu about mine. If half the commons on the site disappeared tomorrow I wouldn't bat an eye. That's nothing against any dragon or artist. My beef is with the cave.

 

If something could be done to get that cave moving, I'm all for it no matter what it is. If there were a 1000 different dragons and the cave MOVED, I'd be happy.

Edited October 15, 2014 by MedievalMystic

[olympe]

It would still hurt many people who're into lineages as well as newbies, so I'm against massive retirements.

 

If you feel that the cave doesn't move, try to catch the five minute drops. If you need something to occupy you for the short time spans between two drops, try this.

Edited October 15, 2014 by olympe

[CNR4806]

The rares/uncommons aren't the problem.  They aren't clogging up the cave.  Commons are. 

 

And yeah, people have a 'right' to complain about anything and everything,  I suppose. 

 

But whatever.  These are all just opinions and I'm not going to argu about mine.  If half the commons on the site disappeared tomorrow I wouldn't bat an eye.  That's nothing against any dragon or artist.  My beef is with the cave. 

 

If something could be done to get that cave moving, I'm all for it no matter what it is.  If there were a 1000 different dragons and the cave MOVED, I'd be happy.

If half of the commons disppeared, prepare for the mast majority of the void left behind by the removed "blockers" to be filled by the other half of the commons, because that's how ratios work.

 

Bravo, you just brought back one-breed blocker walls.

Edited October 15, 2014 by CNR4806

[SolarCat]

I still think there are many steps DC could take before deciding on permanent retirement as the best solution. Making certain breeds harder (maybe even extremely so) to find during some seasons...

This particular idea has been mentioned before, and I would recommend trying that first before permanently retiring breeds.

 

(Whether or not the breeds are available for breeding during that timeframe, I do suggest that the odds of breeding them are reduced during that timeframe compared to the in-season breeding rates. Otherwise the CB ones will be too rare when they become available in the cave, and that comes with its own problems.)

 

Biomes were started in part to help improve the availability of eggs, but we will outgrow this at some point.

Permanently retiring breeds from the cave will cause more drama that it is worth, though.

Cycling the available breeds depending upon seasons, months, day/night, the part of the hour, or whatever, is a much better compromise.

[MedievalMystic]

Bravo, you just brought back one-breed blocker walls.

 

One breed blocker walls or multi breed blocker walls. A blocker wall is a blocker wall, isn't it and they both suck. If dragons were put on some kind of 'retirement program', I assume the 'void' would be filled by NEW release commons. If dragons were retired every couple-three years, which, imo, would be great, we wouldn't be staring at same old breeds that have been around since DC began. Which, by now, for me anyway, is beyond old.

 

Besides, like I said, imo, retired breeds should still be able to reproduce themselves. I can't see any reason why they shouldn't, unless the artist wouldn't want that.

 

I'm still trying to get pinks from the last release, but it's almost impossible. I don't have hours to sit around trying to get one egg, which is pretty much what it amounts to. At least, it feels like it. 2-3 minutes of clicking and those eggs not moving and I'm ready to throw my computer out of the window I'm that frustrated with it.

 

Anyway, like I said, I don't care what the solution to getting the cave moving is, I just hope it's something and soon. :/

Edited October 15, 2014 by MedievalMystic

[CNR4806]

One breed blocker walls or multi breed blocker walls. A blocker wall is a blocker wall, isn't it and they both suck. If dragons were put on some kind of 'retirement program', I assume the 'void' would be filled by NEW release commons. If dragons were retired every couple-three years, which, imo, would be great, we wouldn't be staring at same old breeds that have been around since DC began. Which, by now, for me anyway, is beyond old.

 

Besides, like I said, imo, retired breeds should still be able to reproduce themselves. I can't see any reason why they shouldn't, unless the artist wouldn't want that.

 

I'm still trying to get pinks from the last release, but it's almost impossible. I don't have hours to sit around trying to get one egg, which is pretty much what it amounts to. At least, it feels like it. 2-3 minutes of clicking and those eggs not moving and I'm ready to throw my computer out of the window I'm that frustrated with it.

 

Anyway, like I said, I don't care what the solution to getting the cave moving is, I just hope it's something and soon. :/

Even if said "solution" basically solves nothing, is harmful and outrageous to the majority of the players and benefitial to practically nobody?

 

You have said it yourself, you're a rare/uncommon hunter and don't care if (half of) the commons vanish overnight, and I've pointed out exactly why mass-retiring commons, or indeed retiring any common at all would achieve nothing to your cause.

 

If the Frill drama has proven anything, it's that as long as the ratio system remains in its current state, hating on the so-called blocker breeds and wanting them to be retired is not going to achieve anything for you rare-hunters, even if said wish is granted.

[Jazeki]

Besides, like I said, imo, retired breeds should still be able to reproduce themselves.  I can't see any reason why they shouldn't, unless the artist wouldn't want that. 

 

Like I noted somewhere earlier in the thread, there's no point in lobbying for breed retirement if they're still able to be bred and produce offspring of the same breed. Then they're not retired, they're limited releases like holidays or hybrids.

Edited October 16, 2014 by Jazeki

[MedievalMystic]

Even if said "solution" basically solves nothing, is harmful and outrageous to the majority of the players and benefitial to practically nobody?

 

It's 'harmful', is it? Well, damn, CNR, I guess we'd just have to call 911 when people started to keel over.

 

And I don't agree that it's not a solution. It may not be the best solution to some, but it's a solution. I'd rather look at cave blockers for a couple years, knowing they'll be gone after that time, instead of having to deal with the same ones forever.

 

Like I noted somewhere earlier in the thread, there's no point in lobbying for breed retirement if they're still able to be bred and produce offspring of the same breed. Then they're not retired, they're limited releases like holidays or hybrids.

 

If a species goes extinct and the only ones left are in zoos, which is how I view retirement on this game, do the rest of the ones left just quit breeding? No? Then why should fantasy dragons? I don't see this the same way you do.

 

I hope that made sense...I just woke up.

Edited October 16, 2014 by MedievalMystic

[CNR4806]

It's 'harmful', is it?  Well, damn, CNR, I guess we'd just have to call 911 when people started to keel over. 

[Hurt feelings detected. Sarcasm removed by yours truly to stop monitors and keyboards from being smashed (also the excessive post vandalism that may otherwise occur).]

 

You are well aware of what I was trying to say.

 

And I don't agree that it's not a solution. It may not be the best solution to some, but it's a solution.   I'd rather look at cave blockers for a couple years, knowing they'll be gone after that time, instead of having to deal with the same ones forever.

 

Blockers that you, a rare/uncommon hunter, is still not going to take or keep for more than 5 hours, depending on your hunting style.

 

Can you tell me what exactly is the difference between 3 mints that you're not going take, 3 ridgewings that you're not going to take and 3 brimestones that you're not going to take, other than the different descriptions you see?

 

You're still staring at them, you're still not taking them, and they're still "blocking" the cave, and yet you're claiming that denying them to other people who actually want the things is actually solving something? Have their descriptions really offended you that badly?

Edited October 16, 2014 by CNR4806

[edwardelricfreak]

From what I've seen the blockers HAVE been changing. Vines, Blacks, Magi, and Whites, among others, used to be a *lot* more common. Now it usually takes me a bit to find them. This is just one example but they're definitely changing. Mints, Stones, and Guardians are still as prevalent as ever, but even they've become a bit less of a problem now that there are other cave blockers.

[LadyLyzar]

Closed temporarily to give members time to calm down and for mods to look over.

 

Topic reopened. Please remember to attack the topic and not each other.

 

Thank you.

Edited October 16, 2014 by LadyLyzar

[MedievalMystic]

CNR, I have my fair share of blockers. I have more of them than I'll ever need. No dragon or description 'offends' me. It's not the dragons that are the problem, it's the way the system is working overall. No egg should sit more than a few seconds before a new one pops up, imo. A continuous cycle of dragons would at least be...interesting. The system should cycle ALL breeds at the least, imo. When one type of egg just sits there, never moving, it drives me mad and within 5 minutes I'm done hunting. I haven't laid eyes on some breeds in ages.

 

People sweat bullets after a release. People are very nervous after a release, especially if they missed it. It's known around here that if you don't get your quota of eggs within a day or two, it's over. Good luck seeing them anytime soon. I'm still trying to get some of the pinks from the latest release. I haven't even seen any since they came out. I don't have the time...or the patience...to sit in the cave, hour after hour, hoping to snag the eggs. There's a flaw in the system. It shouldn't take days, or God forbid, weeks, to find the eggs you're after.

 

I see retiring breeds as one way, and only one way, certainly not the only way, to get the cave moving. This is much more about implementing something, anything, that will get the cave to MOVE. I don't hate any dragon, I appreciate them all and love them. But the cave itself needs an overhaul and really, I don't care how it's done as long as it is.

[CNR4806]

CNR, I have my fair share of blockers.  I have more of them than I'll ever need.  No dragon or description 'offends' me.  It's not the dragons that are the problem, it's the way the system is working overall.  No egg should sit more than a few seconds before a new one pops up, imo.  A continuous cycle of dragons would at least be...interesting.  The system should cycle ALL breeds at the least, imo.  When one type of egg just sits there, never moving, it drives me mad and within 5 minutes I'm done hunting.  I haven't laid eyes on some breeds in ages. 

 

[...] 

 

I see retiring breeds as one way, and only one way, certainly not the only way, to get the cave moving.  This is much more about implementing something, anything, that will get the cave to MOVE.  I don't hate any dragon, I appreciate them all and love them.  But the cave itself needs an overhaul and really, I don't care how it's done as long as it is.

Retiring anything will still not achieve anything that you're looking for. New blockers will take up their stead and the eggs will still take minutes to even cycle once.

 

A rapid egg-cycling system like what you suggested is more likely to give the cave a more volatile feeling, which you and indeed quite a lot of people desire. Keyword is "feeling" -- I suspect cycling them too hard is going to thin out the amount of rares and uncommons in the biome backlog, since individual rares will most likely spend less time in the limbo before showing up, and promptly gets snatched before having a chance to be cycled back into the backlog, essentially leaving a huge pile of commons to stay in the cycle.

Edited October 16, 2014 by CNR4806

[Jazeki]

If a species goes extinct and the only ones left are in zoos, which is how I view retirement on this game, do the rest of the ones left just quit breeding?  No?  Then why should fantasy dragons?  I don't see this the same way you do.

 

I hope that made sense...I just woke up.

I get your logic, but many species in zoos in breeding plans still go extinct or they get wiped out before they even make it to into a conservation program. I think of dragons like dinosaurs. Once they're gone, they're gone--unless there's a Jurassic Park situation going on. Also, to keep in line with the apparently Medieval time period that DC is in, the species would probably go extinct rather than survive in a menagerie since they were mainly using the animals as status symbols or for forms of entertainment (like baiting and fighting).

 

Really, though, I think it's just I have a problem with suggesting "retirement" when the idea is really "retire from dropping in the cave," which doesn't solve any problems with overcrowding or whatever is apparently wrong with DC.

Edited October 16, 2014 by Jazeki

[cyradis4]

Ratios being ratios, the only thing that will produce more Rares is if more commons are raised. That is the ONLY way to affect the ratios. The system is designed to make SURE that rares stay rare.

 

The only thing retiring breeds would do would be to make rares more rare: by driving the people who loved the retired commons away, and driving the many people who detest retired breeds away.

 

One unique feature of DragonCave vs other sites is that someone who arrives late to the party can still get almost everything the game has ever released within the first year or so and not have to pay exorbitant prices. Maybe not in CB, but in pretty lineages.

 

The number of pet collecting games out there is astronomical. And lets be honest with ourselves, DragCave is one of the simpler ones out there. Why on Earth would we want to change one of the very few things that make the Cave unusual / unique? To become cheap knockoffs of the other games? What good would that do? None, because DragCave at its heart is a simple game to play.

 

 

tl;dr:

1. Having almost every that has ever been available still available to everyone is extremely rare in pet collecting games. Why would we want to mimic other games?

 

2. Retiring commons won't help rares be more plentiful. It'll just drive people who like commons away.

[olympe]

It's 'harmful', is it? Well, damn, CNR, I guess we'd just have to call 911 when people started to keel over.

 

And I don't agree that it's not a solution. It may not be the best solution to some, but it's a solution. I'd rather look at cave blockers for a couple years, knowing they'll be gone after that time, instead of having to deal with the same ones forever.

 

 

 

If a species goes extinct and the only ones left are in zoos, which is how I view retirement on this game, do the rest of the ones left just quit breeding? No? Then why should fantasy dragons? I don't see this the same way you do.

 

I hope that made sense...I just woke up.

Trust me, cave blockers change over time. When I started, frills (and all other "strange markings" eggs) were cave blockers. Pinks were cave blockers. And the AP was literally overflowing with vines and blacks and purple dorsals. Another one of the worst blocker breeds of that time were neotropicals.

 

On the other hand, CB blacks, vines and stripes were incredibly hard to get. Now, they can almost be considered blockers.

[Fuzzbucket]

And let's not get started on the now-elusive balloons

[Sundew]

Yes--blockers are always rotating! And there must always be cave blockers, IMO, or it would subtract from the satisfaction of finding a rare egg. The trading market is always on the move, and that's what makes DC fun for me. I am not at all eager for the cave blocker "problem" to be fixed. I honestly do not have a problem catching rares. It's not easy--it wouldn't be fun if it was--but checking in every five minutes when the eggs drop works quite well for me.

[Fuzzbucket]

Never mind the drops.

 

NEVER refresh the page with coffee in one hand. I just missed a gold - BETWEEN all the drops - with only 2 people in there - because I had no hand left to click with....

[Beldarius]

The whole "seasonal rotation" thing would solve the problem of cave-blockers for the most part, and keep peoples' interest up so they keep playing. It works much better than retiring breeds does. UniCreatures also has seasonal rotation for some of its adoptables (and monthly rotation for others) and I have to admit I keep going back there to collect every breed there is.

 

Monthly rotation would actually work even better than seasonal. There are 12 months and several breeds - the commons could have months assigned to them, while the rares could be around all year long.

Edited October 16, 2014 by Beldarius

[Fortis]

It always seemed to me the ratio of commons to uncommons to rares is fixed. Within one of those categories, rare for example, a certain percent are gold, another percent silver, and so on. Hypothetically speaking, if there were common breeds removed from the common category, then the percentages of other common breeds would expand to fill up the overall common category. Or so I would imagine. The point is, if TJ09 wants golds to be only 0.01% or so of the egg drops, or whatever it is, it will stay that way, even if commons are removed. Finding CB rares will remain just as challenging. There will just be more of the other common eggs not yet removed.

 

And disappointment among the new members that there's a lot of cool breeds that are forever barred to them. Being the packrat and collector that I am, I would find this incredibly discouraging. I've visited other pet sites, and finding there was a bunch of stuff I could never get, lasted a week at most at them before leaving. Now, I'm not saying everyone is like this, but I'm hardly unique either. As others have mentioned, having so very little barred to newbies or hidden behind onerous paywalls is something that makes DC unique. I don't think we should change that. Newbie friendliness is an admirable trait.

 

Lastly, we aren't staring at the same old breeds. As new commons are introduced, they join the abandoned page to give it more variety. I remember when the AP was nothing but Mints, or vines and blacks. Now other breeds frequent the abandoned page. In the future, as more dragons come into the fold, there will be even more variety in the AP page as well.

 

If you're having trouble getting a particular breed you want, there's lots of trading pages going on. Try the Giving Tree, the people there are very generous.

Edited October 16, 2014 by Fortis

[Emeraldmay]

For me; DC seems to have two main aspects:

 

CATCH 'EM ALL or BUILD 'EM ALL

 

If you're catching every dragon, retiring them does you no good, so you wouldn't support this.

If you're building lineages, then retiring different dragons means a reduced palette to work with, so this wouldn't help.

 

I agree that cave blockers are annoying, and do need a better solution.

 

This may sound stupid...but would we be able to create blockers entirely for the AP? Say every hour we drop 100 blockers in there, which helps to balance the cave ratios, therefore making them produce less blockers. More room for desirables. Those who want commons could find them in the AP